On Thu, 2011-07-21 at 23:03 -0400, Jeff Dik wrote: > On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 9:04 PM, daly <d...@axiom-developer.org> wrote: > > On Tue, 2011-07-19 at 20:14 -0400, Adam Richardson wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Brian Hurt <bhur...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> What's this awk-a-mel he speaks of? Ocaml, pronounced > >> oh-camel, I > >> know very well, but I've never heard of this awk-a-mel. :-) > >> > >> Seriously, his pronunciation of "ocaml" highlights, I think, > >> the core > >> problem of his talk. There has been significant development > >> in > >> languages, just not in the popular languages. It's been over > >> there in > >> the "fringe" languages. > >> > >> > >> I will confess that as I listened to the presentation (when I got the > >> email with Tim's link, I just started the video while I was working on > >> some drudgery), I felt like he missed some of the language features > >> promoted in functional languages. > >> > >> > >> He worded functional programming contributions in terms of advancing > >> the idea of limiting/protecting variable assignment (immutability), > >> and to me, that's missing the points of first class functions (which, > >> in light of what he says OOP languages brought to the table, actually > >> provided protected function pointers through purely functional > >> languages without any need for OOP) and an emphasis on function purity > >> and limiting the scope of unpure functions (to me, this goes beyond > >> merely protecting assignment.) > >> > >> > >> These omissions, coupled with the mispronunciations of functional > >> programming language names, and the value placed on the last language > >> being homoiconic (without much justification) had me wondering how > >> much he actually has used languages such as OCaml or Haskell. > > > > Homoiconic representation is fundamentally important and lacking > > in other languages. The programs == data idea is what makes the > > macro facility work, allows dynamic program construction, compile > > to core, etc. There is a story going around that McCarthy attended > > a python talk where they made the claim that python IS a lisp-like > > language. John pointed out that if it lacks homoiconicity it cannot > > be a lisp. (I probably have the details wrong). > > Perhaps the last 6 or 7 paragraphs to > http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/ooh-ooh-my-turn-why-lisp.html? > > Jeff
Yes, that's the story. --Tim > > > > > OCaml came from ML but the ideas came before either one. Lisp supported > > functional programming long before either language. I believe the point > > Robert was trying to make was that very few languages have increased our > > stock of fundamental ideas. OCaml is not one of them. > > > > Indeed languages (like Spad) built on lisp STILL support ideas I have > > not seen anywhere else (e.g. dispatching on the return type as well as > > the argument types). > > > > Robert suggests that we need to develop a standard language. > > Good luck with that. > > > > I participated in the reviews of the X3J13 Common Lisp standard > > (behind the scenes by passing on my comments and markups to people who > > had the proposal directly). Trying to define a "standard programming > > language" would be the ultimate language war. It has been tried several > > times before (PL/I included everything and C++0xxxxx is trying hard to > > include everything). > > > > At best I believe we will muddle along and I will continue to be > > rejected during job interviews for working in python 2.7 and not > > "knowing" python 3.0. Forty years of lisp programming just makes > > me too old to hire for any "real" programming job. Heck, I probably > > don't know the difference between OCaml and awk-a-mel so I clearly > > cannot program. :-) > > > > > >> > >> > >> I don't need to know how many digits somebody can recite Pi to, but I > >> would like to know how his experience with awk-a-mel lead him to > >> believe that functional programming comes down to protecting variable > >> assignment :) > >> > >> > >> That all said, if Clojure is the seed for the last language, I'd be a > >> happy man. > > > > I believe that Robert missed the fundamental point though. It is > > NOT just the space of ideas that makes lisp "the right language". > > Another key reason is "impedance matching". (An impedance mismatch > > is when you hook a soda straw to a firehose). > > > > Programs exist to bridge the gap between the idea domain and the > > machine domain. Some languages are close to the machine, like assembler, > > so you have to "carry your idea" all the way to the machine. Some > > languages are close to the problem (e.g. Mathematica) but the compiler > > has to cross the gap to the machine. This is where the ability to > > create domain-specific languages in the same syntax matters. > > > > Lisp is the only language I know that allows you to work across the > > whole spectrum in a single language. It is possible to say > > (integrate (car x)) > > which takes the 0 displacement off the x pointer (machine) and then > > does a mathematical integration routine (problem) and does it all with > > the same syntax and semantics. > > > > I wouldn't worry that we will stop creating new languages. > > We have yet to explore the space of unicode replacements for the > > semi-colon (although Fortress is starting). Kanji semi-colons. > > I can't wait! > > > > Tim Daly > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > > your first post. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
