Thanks Linus, You make a really good point - why can't testers use the REPL? I'd like to think that was possible too - after all, *I* can do it so why can't anyone else?
That said, I'm slightly blessed in that I've done a lot of work in Erlang and R over many years, so I was already comfortable with functional programming. Even then, I found it quite a learning curve to get a level of competency with Clojure - the language itself is pretty easy, but working out what libraries exist for a specific domain and how best to leverage them is hard work. If we had a bunch of pre-canned test scripts that the testers had to run and check the results, then the REPL wouldn't be at all important - testers would simply e.g. type commands into the REPL and make sure the responses were appropriate. Unfortunately, we want our testers to do a lot more exploratory-style testing; for example, "send some data through a published API and confirm it gets written to the database correctly", then "send some incorrect data through the same API and confirm it DOESN'T get written to the database". Doing these sorts of tasks require either (a) a fair grasp of Clojure *and* several libraries if the tester is working alone, or (b) a fairly tight partnership with a developer who would essentially tell the tester what to type, or (c) a set of domain-specific tools built to simplify this testing to the point where the tester can do these tasks with minimal assistance. Now, if you or I was given this testing task to perform *and* we knew it was going to be an ongoing demand on our time, we'd probably take option (c) and build some tools to make our lives as simple as possible. That presupposes that we have the Clojure and domain knowledge to do so, which our testers don't have. Option (b) is what we're essentially doing today - being tied so closely to Q&A with a developer, it's inherently non-scalable and we're now hitting the limitations of how far this approach will take us. Option (a) - ... well, I'd love it if we had testers who already knew Clojure, or a stream of Clojure projects whereby acquiring these skills made sense for the testers' long term career prospects. What's really frustrating is that the app we're building is actually pretty simple, and a competent tester doesn't require deep domain knowledge in order to work out what needs to be tested. The problem is in their working out how to attack it, within a set of constraints that are probably pretty common to most work environments. Thanks again Dave M. On Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:55:48 UTC+11, Linus Ericsson wrote: > > > I really cant see how the testers could NOT be able to use a repl to do > some exploratory testing. > > Clojure's strength is really that you can align the code very closely to > the domain, although this modelling is (as always) challenging. > > And the application logic does not have to be tested through and > http-based interface, sometimes it's a good start to test it through the > Repl. > > If this is hard to use, then everything will be hard with the application. > > /Linus > Den 29 okt 2014 10:07 skrev "Colin Yates" <colin...@gmail.com > <javascript:>>: > >> I also meant to say that it is worth doing a cost-benefit analysis on >> testing. When I did my consultant thing I frequently saw massive investment >> in tools, process, emotion(!) etc. in things that on paper were a good >> thing but in reality weren't mitigating any real risk. >> >> All testing isn't equal - what risks do you currently face right now >> (e.g. are you playing whack-a-moley due to developer's poor impact >> analysis, or for example, are the developers consistently producing great >> code which doesn't piece together well and so on)? Put your energies into >> resolving those risks. >> >> Most testing processes and resources I see are by definition re-active - >> they find effects (bugs) of the cause (which is typically developer >> insufficiency in terms of requirements). In my view resources should all be >> about mitigating the cause. Why not get your testers (although I really >> don't like segmenting resources by calling them "testers") to sit with a >> developer just before they do a new piece of work and think through the >> impact analysis? Have your testers take the use cases and start building >> the test scenarios immediately. Have your testers review the developers >> unit tests - if it doesn't make sense to a (technically orientated) tester >> than the developer is probably doing it wrong and so on. >> >> Simply spotting effects is helpful but all resources should be focused on >> mitigating the cause of those effects and more often than not I see a whole >> bunch of "testing" activity which isn't really solving any real problems >> but is certainly slowing down the flow. Please let me clear - I am not >> challenging the _requirements_ of the traditional testing process (e.g. >> ensuring quality), I am claiming the way most people do it is incredibly >> expensive and inefficient. >> >> I can hear the internet taking a breath saying "No!, he didn't just go >> there" :). >> >> On Wednesday, 29 October 2014 00:12:52 UTC, David Mitchell wrote: >>> >>> Hi Colin >>> >>> Thanks for your reply. >>> >>> My post is almost exclusively technology oriented because I think the >>> technology is what's killing us! >>> >>> We've got what you'd probably call "BDD lite" working, in that we've got >>> a mutant form of agile process running whereby we work in 2 week sprints, >>> but there's rarely an installable product that emerges at the end of the 2 >>> weeks. I won't go into detail as to what I feel are the root causes in a >>> public forum - however I'm convinced that our adoption of Clojure is at >>> least partly to blame. >>> >>> Just to make it clear, I absolutely believe Clojure is a good tool to >>> use for this project, and personally I'll be actively seeking out other >>> Clojure projects in the future. I'm saying that from the viewpoint of >>> someone who's employed in the testing area, but who also has quite a bit of >>> Clojure development experience. There's just this gulf at present between >>> the people who know Clojure (almost exclusively developers) and other >>> technical staff involved in the application lifecycle (testers, >>> infrastructure owners, all the various technical managers) that we're >>> finding very difficult to manage. >>> >>> For example, it'd be great if we could pair up our testers and >>> developers, have them working side by side and rapidly iterating through >>> e.g. Cucumber feature definition, coding and testing. That would be >>> absolutely ideal for this particular project, where a complete set of test >>> cases can't be 100% defined up front and lots of minor questions arise even >>> within an iteration. If this working arrangement was viable, every time we >>> hit a point that needed clarification, the tester could engage the product >>> owner, get clarification and jump back in to their normal work with minimal >>> disruption. However, our testers simply can't provide enough useful input >>> into development - they're currently stuck waiting for developers to hand >>> their code over *in a form that the testers can test it*, and often there's >>> a lot of extra (wasted?) effort involved to take working Clojure code and >>> make it testable using non-Clojure tools. >>> >>> To say this is an inefficient working model would be a massive >>> understatement. What we're seeing is that our developers work like mad for >>> the first week of a 2 week iteration, while the testers are largely idle; >>> then code gets handed over and the developers are largely idle while the >>> testers work like mad trying to finish their work before the end of the >>> iteration. Our automation testers are valiantly trying to use SoapUI and >>> Groovy and (to a small extent) Cucumber/Ruby to test our Clojure code, but >>> those tools require that there are exposed HTTP endpoints (SoapUI) or Java >>> classes (Groovy or *JRuby*) that the tool can use to exercise the >>> underlying Clojure code. These endpoints exist, but only at a very high >>> level - our UI testing, which works very well, is already hitting those >>> same endpoints. >>> >>> Additionally, our QA manager wants our testers to be able to do more >>> exploratory testing, based on his personal experience of using Ruby's >>> interactive shell, and simply "trying stuff out". That approach makes a >>> lot of sense for this project, and I know that using a Clojure REPL could >>> provide a great platform for this type of testing, but doing that would >>> require a sizeable investment in our testers learning to use Clojure. >>> >>> I'm starting to wonder whether there's actually any point trying to do >>> *any* system testing of Clojure apps under active development, as maybe >>> that risk exposure can best be addressed by enforcing suitable coding >>> standards (e.g. :pre and :post conditions), and then extending what would >>> normally be unit tests to address whole-of-system functionality. After >>> all, for an app written in a functional language - where you've basically >>> only got functions that take parameters and return a result, minimal state >>> to manage, and usually a small set of functions having side effects like >>> database IO - surely a lot of your traditional functional test scenarios >>> would simply be tightly-targetted unit tests anyway. >>> >>> Maybe we should be handing off our single-system functional testing >>> entirely to developers, and only engaging our dedicated QA people once we >>> get to integrating all the different streams of development together. That >>> seems to be the approach that Craig's project (thanks Craig!) is taking, >>> and it'd definitely be easier to work with compared to our current >>> processes. Due to the lack of oversight and up-front objective >>> requirements, there could be an increased risk that our developers are >>> writing code to solve the wrong problem, but maybe that's just something we >>> need to live with. >>> >>> If anyone else has any thoughts, I'd REALLY appreciate hearing about >>> them. Thanks again to Colin and Craig >>> >>> On Tuesday, 28 October 2014 20:04:39 UTC+11, Colin Yates wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> Your post is very technology orientated (which is fine!). Have you >>>> looked into BDD type specifications? I am talking specifically the process >>>> described in http://specificationbyexample.com/. If you haven't, I >>>> strongly recommend you do as the win in this situation is they separate >>>> the >>>> required behaviour of the system (i.e. the specification) being tested >>>> from >>>> the technical geekery of asserting that behaviour. In brief, this process, >>>> when done well: >>>> - defines behaviour in readable text documents (albeit restricted by >>>> the jerkin grammar) >>>> - the same specification is consumed by the stake holders and the >>>> computer (and if you want bonus points are produced by/with the stake >>>> holders :)) >>>> - provides access to many libraries to interpret and execute those >>>> specs (http://cukes.info/ being the main one etc.) >>>> >>>> Once you get into the whole vibe of freeing your specs from >>>> implementation a whole new world opens up. http://fitnesse.org/ for >>>> example, is another approach. >>>> >>>> I am suggesting the tension in your post around "how do we collate all >>>> our resources around an unfamiliar tool" might be best addressed by using >>>> a >>>> new tool - the shared artifacts are readable English textual >>>> specifications >>>> which everybody collaborates on. The geeks do their thing (using Ruby, >>>> Clojure, groovy, Scala, Selenium, A.N.Other etc.) to execute those same >>>> specs. >>>> >>>> On Monday, 27 October 2014 04:21:07 UTC, David Mitchell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi group, >>>>> >>>>> Apologies for the somewhat cryptic subject line - I'll try to >>>>> explain... Apologies also for the length of the post, but I'm sure >>>>> others >>>>> will hit the same problem if they haven't already done so, and hopefully >>>>> this discussion will help them find a way out of a sticky situation. >>>>> >>>>> We've got a (notionally agile) Clojure app under heavy development. >>>>> The project itself follows the Agile Manifesto to a degree, but is >>>>> constrained in having to interface with other applications that are >>>>> following a waterfall process. Yep, it's awkward, but that's not what >>>>> I'm >>>>> asking about. >>>>> >>>>> Simplifying it as much as possible, we started with a pre-existing, >>>>> somewhat clunky, Java app, then extended the server side extensively >>>>> using >>>>> Clojure, and added a web client. There's loads of (non-Clojure) >>>>> supporting >>>>> infrastructure - database cluster, queue servers, identity management, >>>>> etc. At any point, we've got multiple streams of Clojure development >>>>> going >>>>> on, hitting different parts of the app. The web client development is >>>>> "traditional" in that it's not using ClojureScript, and probably won't in >>>>> the foreseeable future. As mentioned above, a key point is that the app >>>>> has a significant requirement to interface to legacy systems - other Java >>>>> apps, SAP, Oracle identity management stack and so on. >>>>> >>>>> From a testing perspective, for this app we've got unit tests written >>>>> in Clojure/midje which are maintained by the app developers (as you'd >>>>> expect). These work well and midje is a good fit for the app. However, >>>>> given all the various infrastructure requirements of the app, it's hard >>>>> to >>>>> see how we can use midje to go all the way up the testing stack (unit -> >>>>> system -> integration -> pre-production -> production). >>>>> >>>>> From the web client perspective, we've got UI automation tests written >>>>> using Ruby/Capybara, a toolset which I suspect was chosen based on the >>>>> existing skillset of the pool of testers. Again this works well for us. >>>>> >>>>> The problem is with the "middle ground" between the two extremes of >>>>> unit and UI testing - our glaring problem at present is with integration >>>>> testing, but there's also a smaller problem with system testing. We're >>>>> struggling to find an approach that works here, given the skillsets we >>>>> have >>>>> on hand - fundamentally, we've got a (small) pool of developers who know >>>>> Clojure, a (small) pool of testers who know Ruby, and a larger pool of >>>>> testers who do primarily non-automated testing. >>>>> >>>>> In an ideal world, we'd probably use Clojure for all automated >>>>> testing. It seems relatively straightforward to use Stuart Sierra's >>>>> component library (https://github.com/stuartsierra/component) to mock >>>>> out infrastructure components such as databases, queues, email servers >>>>> etc., and doing so would let us address our system-level testing. >>>>> >>>>> On the integration front, we could conceivably also leverage the same >>>>> component library to manage the state of all the various infrastructure >>>>> components that the app depends on, and thus ensure that we had a >>>>> suitably >>>>> production-like environment for integration testing. This would be a >>>>> non-trivial piece of work. >>>>> >>>>> Our big problem really boils down to just not having enough skilled >>>>> Clojure people available to the project. You could point to any of the >>>>> following areas that are probably common to any non-trivial Clojure >>>>> application: either we don't have enough Clojure developers to address >>>>> the >>>>> various requirements of system and integration testing, or our techops >>>>> guys >>>>> don't have the necessary skills to expose a Clojure/component interface >>>>> to >>>>> the various test/development environments, or our testers don't know >>>>> Clojure and not willing to take the word of developers that their Clojure >>>>> tests are both fit for purpose and sufficient from a risk management >>>>> perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Obvious options, none of which seem great: >>>>> >>>>> - hire more Clojure people (expensive, as they're still pretty >>>>> rare) and put them to work in testing & techops. We've tried turning >>>>> some >>>>> of our Clojure devs into techops already, but strangely devs who've >>>>> taken >>>>> the time and had the initiative to learn Clojure don't like doing >>>>> techops >>>>> work. What a surprise ;-> I suspect the same would apply if we tried >>>>> turning them into testers >>>>> - retrain our testers so they can write automated tests in >>>>> Clojure. That would be quite a stretch for our testers, and I'd >>>>> suggest it >>>>> would be the same for most testers out there (otherwise they'd >>>>> probably be >>>>> working as developers). Another factor is career development: once >>>>> testers >>>>> start to move on from this project, what is the chance that "Clojure" >>>>> will >>>>> be a useful thing to have on their CVs? >>>>> - retrain techops people so they can wrap up and expose their >>>>> infrastructure using Clojure components, making it available in such a >>>>> way >>>>> that it would better support integration and systems testing. Same >>>>> problems here as with retraining testers to use Clojure >>>>> - enforce the use of :pre and :post conditions in all our Clojure >>>>> code, to bring in a "design by contract" approach and try to reduce >>>>> the >>>>> "surprises" that occur during integration of different streams of >>>>> work. >>>>> Aside from being a sizeable piece of work to do this, we're stuck with >>>>> a >>>>> strong reliance on the pre-existing Java app and I can't see a way of >>>>> reducing the integration risk of this element >>>>> - use something other than Clojure (e.g. Ruby) for systems and >>>>> integration testing, so we could leverage the existing skillsets of >>>>> our >>>>> test workforce. This is probably conceivable if we made the effort to >>>>> expose much of the functionality of the app using something like REST >>>>> APIs, >>>>> but it would require a significant investment in time and would have >>>>> no >>>>> likely future benefit beyond making it easier to test. I realise >>>>> that's a >>>>> desirable aim in itself, but it's a hard sell to the people who pay >>>>> the >>>>> bills! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'll go out on a limb and suggest that, as of late 2014, probably any >>>>> non-trivial Clojure project doesn't have enough skilled Clojure people on >>>>> board to cover all the testing and operational requirements for the >>>>> project. How then are you addressing the non-development requirements of >>>>> your project that require Clojure expertise - especially testing and >>>>> devops? >>>>> >>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Clojure" group. >> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com >> <javascript:> >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >> your first post. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Clojure" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
