> > Such project obviously don't care about bug fixes and new features, since > they are stuck with dangerously old legacy JVM versions anyways, which is > both a security risk, a risk of added defects, and prevents usage of newer > Java features. >
Sigh. I feel like a broken record here, but I'd like to protest again at this characterisation. No-one cares more than me about getting off Java 6, but I have no choice. Oracle refuse to fix serious Swing/AWT bugs in later versions of the JVM, so many IntelliJ (and thus Cursive) users have no choice but to use it. The situation is getting better because JetBrains have actually forked the JDK and are working on fixing the bugs, but their JDK still has hardware-dependent issues, and even once those are fixed users on older versions of IntelliJ may be using Java 6 for years to come. The issue will be forced slightly once the next version of OSX comes out and no longer supports Apple's JDK 6, but until that point (probably two years from now) I'm stuck with it. The rest of your points are valid, but the situation for Cursive, at least, is 100% Oracle's doing, and has no good solution. On 21 January 2016 at 11:45, Didier <didi...@gmail.com> wrote: > The only reason to maintain compatibility with old JVM is to allow getting > new features and bug fixes in an environment that for businesses or > technical constraint can not upgrade to the latest JVM. > > Such project obviously don't care about bug fixes and new features, since > they are stuck with dangerously old legacy JVM versions anyways, which is > both a security risk, a risk of added defects, and prevents usage of newer > Java features. > > It would not prevent them from running Clojure, it would only prevent them > from upgrading Clojure to a later version, but I don't think this is a big > deal, as they are also prevented from upgrading the JVM. > > As I see it, if Clojure does not need any of the new JVM's capability to > implement whatever it wanted for it's next release, than it makes sense to > target the oldest JVM that works. On the other hand, if the legacy JVM is > missing functionality that the new JVM brings, which prevents Clojure from > implementing core ideas that it wants to do, I think that's an issue. > > Now, maybe this has never happened, and 1.6 has been good enough for every > single feature that Clojure decided to adopt. I'd like to know more about > this point. Is the vision of Clojure to restrict itself to only the things > JVM 1.6 allows it to do, or has it been more that the need for more never > presented itself, and so Clojure is happy supporting Java 1.6? > > On Wednesday, 20 January 2016 02:14:51 UTC-8, Daniel Compton wrote: >> >> Just a reminder that Cursive needs to support Java 6, as there are still >> issues with OpenJDK8 on Mac OS X 10.11. So not all people using Java 6 can >> be written off as enterprise laggards. >> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 at 8:52 PM, Bozhidar Batsov <bozh...@batsov.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Even Java 1.7 already reached its end of life. I get it that some >>> companies are slow to update their infrastructures, but being constrained >>> to legacy unsupported systems adds both a security risk and some >>> development overhead. It's high time for Java 1.6 to be laid down to rest >>> and for people stuck to it to move forward. I'm guessing Cognitect's >>> enterprise customers are the primary reason 1.6 is still supported. >>> >>> On 20 January 2016 at 08:58, Max Penet <m...@qbits.cc> wrote: >>> >>>> I doubt it such a big deal actually. >>>> >>>> You can run multiple versions of the java on the same machine. The >>>> only issue would be for legacy projects that are frozen to java 6 and >>>> would like to upgrade to a lib (like clojure) relying java8. But I >>>> doubt such projects are the norm, and the few that are probably do not >>>> care about upgrading to the latest clojure. >>>> >>>> There are a lot of very large projects (such as Jetty, Cassandra, etc) >>>> that just made java8 a requirement for their next/current releases, and >>>> I >>>> don't see much complaining about it (quite the opposite). >>>> >>>> Also the fact that clojure itself is not getting an avalanche of new >>>> feature at every release makes upgrading not so critical. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:33:56 PM UTC+1, Sean Corfield wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Didier wrote on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 11:08 AM: >>>>> >>>>> Why not make new versions of Clojure support the latest Java version >>>>> and JDK features >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Since Clojure 1.7 (and 1.8) run on Java 8 quite happily, I assume you >>>>> mean "Why not drop support for earlier Java versions with each new version >>>>> of Clojure"? >>>>> >>>>> The answer — for any situation like this — is that many companies are >>>>> slow to upgrade fundamental infrastructure like the JVM because they have >>>>> so many things that rely on it, so it is a major exercise. For Clojure to >>>>> be adopted by such companies, it needs to run on their existing JVM >>>>> infrastructure. >>>>> >>>>> Dropping support for older JVM versions is therefore a Big Deal(™) and >>>>> can not be undertaken lightly. A lot of software generally tries to >>>>> support >>>>> current plus two versions back which would mean Java 6 support should >>>>> likely stay until Java 9 is GA (although it’s true that there is also a >>>>> lot >>>>> of software that only supports current plus one version back). >>>>> >>>>> Bear in mind that there are many companies still running Windows XP >>>>> because upgrading is such an expensive business (in time and effort, as >>>>> well as any actual costs)! >>>>> >>>>> Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN >>>>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ >>>>> >>>>> "Perfection is the enemy of the good." >>>>> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com >>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>>> your first post. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> Daniel >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
