Forwarding to the developers list, since my original reply bounced as I wasn't subscribed to the list yet.
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: David Blaikie <dblai...@gmail.com> Date: Wed, May 9, 2018 at 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Experiments in CMake support for Clang (header & standard) modules To: Stephen Kelly <steve...@gmail.com> Cc: cmake-developers@cmake.org <cmake-developers@cmake.org>, Richard Smith < rich...@metafoo.co.uk>, <nat...@acm.org> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 9:01 AM Stephen Kelly <steve...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think this discussion is more suited to the cmake-developers mailing > list. Moving there. > Sure thing - I was sort of hoping much/all of this functionality could be implemented at the user-level without changes to cmake itself at least initially - then upstream convenience mechanisms so everyone doesn't have to rewrite the functionality locally. > Hopefully Brad or someone else can provide other input from research > already done. > > > On 05/07/2018 12:49 AM, David Blaikie wrote: > > > The basic commands required are: >> >> clang++ -fmodules -xc++ -Xclang -emit-module -Xclang -fmodules-codegen >> -fmodule-name=foo foo.modulemap -o foo.pcm >> clang++ -fmodules -c -fmodule-file=foo.pcm use.cpp >> clang++ -c foo.pcm >> clang++ foo.o use.o -o a.out >> >> >> Ok. Fundamentally, I am suspicious of having to have a >> -fmodule-file=foo.pcm for every 'import foo' in each cpp file. I shouldn't >> have to manually add that each time I add a new import to my cpp file. Even >> if it can be automated (eg by CMake), I shouldn't have to have my >> buildsystem be regenerated each time I add an import to my cpp file either. >> >> That's something I mentioned in the google groups post I made which you >> linked to. How will that work when using Qt or any other library? >> > > - My understanding/feeling is that this would be similar to how a user has > to change their link command when they pick up a new dependency. > > > Perhaps it would be interesting to get an idea of how often users need to > change their buildsystems because of a new link dependency, and how often > users add includes to existing c++ files. > Right - my mental model was more that modules would be more one-to-one with libraries, rather than the way headers are these days (with many headers for one library). That seems to be incorrect & it's likely there may be multiple modules (perhaps somewhat fewer than headers) for a single library. > I expect you'll find the latter to be a far bigger number. > > I also expect that expecting users to edit their buildsystem, or allow it > to be regenerated every time they add/remove includes would lead to less > adoption of modules. I can see people trying them and then giving up in > frustration. > > I think I read somewhere that the buildsystem in google already requires > included '.h' files to be listed explicitly in the buildsystem, so it's no > change in workflow there. > Not for the users of the library - but yes, a library needs to declare which headers it contains/provides. (I'm not sure it's at the point where that's required across the codebase - but it's a direction things are moving in). > For other teams, that would be a change which could be a change in > workflow and something rebelled against. > > By the way, do you have any idea how much modules adoption would be needed > to constitute "success"? Is there a goal there? > I don't know of any assessment like that. > Nope, scratch that ^ I had thought that was the case, but talking more > with Richard Smith it seems there's an expectation that modules will be > somewhere between header and library granularity (obviously some small > libraries today have one or only a few headers, some (like Qt) have many - > maybe those on the Qt end might have slightly fewer modules than the have > headers - but still several modules to one library most likely, by the > sounds of it) > > > Why? Richard maybe you can answer that? These are the kinds of things I > was trying to get answers to in the previous post to iso sg2 in the google > group. I didn't get an answer as definitive as this, so maybe you can share > the reason behind such a definitive answer? > It's more that the functionality will allow this & just judging by how people do things today (existing header granularity partly motivated by the cost of headers that doesn't apply to modules), how they're likely to do things in the future (I personally would guess people will probably try to just port their headers to modules - and a few places where there are circular dependencies in headers or the like they might glob them up into one module). > Now, admittedly, external dependencies are a little more complicated than > internal (within a single project consisting of multiple libraries) - which > is why I'd like to focus a bit on the simpler internal case first. > > > Fair enough. > > > > >> Today, a beginner can find a random C++ book, type in a code example from >> chapter one and put `g++ -I/opt/book_examples prog1.cpp` into a terminal >> and get something compiling and running. With modules, they'll potentially >> have to pass a whole list of module files too. >> > > Yeah, there's some talk of supporting a mode that doesn't explicitly > build/use modules in the filesystem, but only in memory for the purpose of > preserving the isolation semantics of modules. This would be used in simple > direct-compilation cases like this. Such a library might need a > configuration file or similar the compiler can parse to discover the > parameters (warning flags, define flags, whatever else) needed to build the > BMI. > > > Perhaps. I'd be interested in how far into the book such a system would > take a beginner. Maybe that's fine, I don't know. Such a system might not > help with code in stack overflow questions/answers though, which would > probably be simpler sticking with includes (eg for Qt/boost). > I imagine the expectation is that eventually there will just be modules APIs to some libraries/classes, so it won't always be a user choice. (if there's sufficient penetration of modules, as you say - if there's sufficiently ubiquitous build support, etc - then library vendors will only provide a module API without a "backwards compatible" header based API) > Library authors will presumably have some say, or try to introduce some > 'best practice' for users to follow. And such best practice will be > different for each library. > I would expect so - as they do with documentation today. Though if they only provide a modules or only provide a header API - users will use whatever they're provided. > I raised some of these issues a few years ago regarding the clang >> implementation with files named exactly module.modulemap: >> >> >> http://clang-developers.42468.n3.nabble.com/How-do-I-try-out-C-modules-with-clang-td4041946.html >> >> >> http://clang-developers.42468.n3.nabble.com/How-do-I-try-out-C-modules-with-clang-td4041946i20.html >> >> Interestingly, GCC is taking a directory-centric approach in the driver >> (-fmodule-path=<dir>) as opposed to the 'add a file to your compile line >> for each import' that Clang and MSVC are taking: >> >> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/cxx-modules >> >> Why is Clang not doing a directory-centric driver-interface? It seems to >> obviously solve problems. I wonder if modules can be a success without >> coordination between major compiler and buildsystem developers. That's why >> I made the git repo - to help work on something more concrete to see how >> things scale. >> > > 'We' (myself & other Clang developers) are/will be talking to GCC folks to > try to get consistency here, in one direction or another (maybe some 3rd > direction different from Clang or LLVM's). As you noted in a follow-up, > there is a directory-based flag in Clang now, added by Boris as he's been > working through adding modules support to Build2. > > > I just looked through the commits from Boris, and it seems he made some > changes relating to -fmodule-file=. That still presupposes that all > (transitively) used module files are specified on the command line. > Actually I believe the need is only the immediate dependencies - at least with Clang's implementation. > I was talking about the -fprebuilt-module-path option added by Manman Ren > in https://reviews.llvm.org/D23125 because that actually relieves the > user/buildsystem of maintaining a list of all used modules (I hope). > *nod* & as you say, GCC has something similar. Though the build system probably wants to know about the used modules to do dependency analysis & rebuilding correctly. So that's something I'm still trying to figure out - if the dependency information (& indeed, the names of the BMI files) can be wholely known only by the compiler or wholely > > > Having just read all of my old posts again, I still worry things like this >> will hinder modules 'too much' to be successful. The more (small) barriers >> exist, the less chance of success. If modules aren't successful, then >> they'll become a poisoned chalice and no one will be able to work on fixing >> them. That's actually exactly what I expect to happen, but I also still >> hope I'm just missing something :). I really want to see a committee >> document from the people working on modules which actually explores the >> problems and barriers to adoption and concludes with 'none of those things >> matter'. I think it's fixable, but I haven't seen anyone interested enough >> to fix the problems (or even to find out what they are). >> > > Indeed - hence my desire to talk through these things, get some practical > experience, document them to the committee in perhaps a less-ranty, more > concrete form along with pros/cons/unknowns/etc to hopefully find some > consistency, maybe write up a document of "this is how we expect build > systems to integrate with this C++ feature", etc. > > > Great. Nathan Sidwell already wrote a paper which is clearer than I am on > some of the problems: > > http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2017/p0778r0.pdf > > However he told me it 'wasn't popular'. I don't know if he means the > problems were dismissed, or his proposed solution was dismissed as not > popular. > > Nevertheless, I recommend reading the problems stated there. > Yeah, thanks for the link - useful to read. > My current very simplistic prototype, to build a module file, its >> respective module object file, and include those in the library/link for >> anything that depends on this library: >> >> add_custom_command( >> COMMAND ${CMAKE_CXX_COMPILER} ${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS} -xc++ -c >> -Xclang -emit-module -fmodules -fmodule-name=Hello >> ${CMAKE_CURRENT_SOURCE_DIR}/module.modulemap -o >> ${CMAKE_CURRENT_BINARY_DIR}/hello_module.pcm -Xclang -fmodules-codegen >> DEPENDS module.modulemap hello.h >> >> >> Why does this command depend on hello.h? >> > > Because it builds the binary module interface (hello_module.pcm) that is a > serialized form of the compiler's internal representation of the contents > of module.modulemap which refers to hello.h (the modulemap lists the header > files that are part of the module). This is all using Clang's current > backwards semi-compatible "header modules" stuff. In a "real" modules > system, ideally there wouldn't be any modulemap. Just a .cppm file, and any > files it depends on (discovered through the build system scanning the > module imports, or a compiler-driven .d file style thing). > > Perhaps it'd be better for me to demonstrate something closer to the > actual modules reality, rather than this retro header modules stuff that > clang supports. > > > That would be better for me. I'm interested in modules-ts, but I'm not > interested in clang-modules. > > > > >> If that is changed and module.modulemap is not, what will happen? >> > > If hello.h is changed and module.modulemap is not changed? The > hello_module.pcm does need to be rebuilt. > > > Hmm, this assumes that the pcm/BMI only contains declarations and not > definitions, right? > Nah, it might contain definitions, same as a header file would today (inline) - or non-inline definitions. > I think clang outputs the definitions in a separate object file, but GCC > currently doesn't. Perhaps that's a difference that cmake has to account > for or pass on to the user. > Clang outputs frontend-usable (not object code, but serialized AST usable for compiling other source code) descriptions of the entire module (whatever it contains - declarations, definitions, etc) to the .pcm file. It can then, in a separate step, build an object file from the pcm. I think GCC produces both of these artifacts in one go - but not in the same file. > Ideally all of this would be implicit (maybe with some flag/configuration, > or detected based on new file extensions for C++ interface definitions) in > the add_library - taking, let's imagine, the .ccm (let's say, for > argument's sake*) file listed in the add_library's inputs and using it to > build a .pcm (BMI), building that .pcm as an object file along with all the > normal .cc files, > > > Ok, I think this is the separation I described above. > > > * alternatively, maybe they'll all just be .cc files & a build system > would be scanning the .cc files to figure out dependencies & could notice > that one of them is the blessed module interface definition based on the > first line in the file. > > > Today, users have to contend with errors resulting from their own code > being incorrect, using some 3rd party template incorrectly, linking not > working due to incorrect link dependencies, and incorrect compiles due to > missing include directories (or incorrect defines specified). I can see > incorrect inputs to module generation being a new category of errors to > confuse users. > > For example, if in your list of files there are two files which look like > the blessed module interface based on the first line in the file, > Two files that both start with "export module foo"? Yes, that would be problematic/erroneous. > there will be something to debug. > > > So I suppose the more advanced question: Is there a way I can extend > handling of existing CXX files (and/or define a new kind of file, say, > CXXM?) specified in a cc_library. If I want to potentially check if a .cc > file is a module, discover its module dependencies, add new rules about how > to build those, etc. Is that do-able within my cmake project, or would that > require changes to cmake itself? (I'm happy to poke around at what those > changes might look like) > > > One of the things users can do in order to ensure that CMake works best is > to explicitly list the cpp files they want compiled, instead of relying on > globbing as users are prone to want to do: > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1027247/is-it-better-to-specify-source-files-with-glob-or-each-file-individually-in-cmak > > if using globbing, adding a new file does not cause the buildsystem to be > regenerated, and you won't have a working build until you explicitly cause > cmake to be run again. > > I expect you could get into similar problems with modules - needing a > module to be regenerated because its dependencies change (because it > exports what it imports from a dependency for example). I'm not sure > anything can be done to cause cmake to reliably regenerate the module in > that case. It seems similar to the globbing case to me. > > But aside from that you could probably experimentally come up with a way > to do the check for whether a file is a module and discover its direct > dependencies using file(READ). You might want to delegate to a script in > another language to determine transitive dependencies and what > add_custom{_command,_target} code to generate. > OK > > > >> But this isn't ideal - I don't /think/ I've got the dependencies quite >> right & things might not be rebuilding at the right times. >> Also it involves hardcoding a bunch of things like the pcm file names, >> header files, etc. >> >> >> Indeed. I think part of that comes from the way modules have been >> designed. The TS has similar issues. >> > > Sure - but I'd still be curious to understand how I might go about > modifying the build system to handle this. If there are obvious things I > have gotten wrong about the dependencies, etc, that would cause this not to > rebuild on modifications to any of the source/header files - I'd love any > tips you've got. > > > Sure. I didn't notice anything from reading, but I also didn't try it out. > You might need to provide a repo with the module.modulemap/c++ files etc > that are part of your experiment. Or better, provide something based on > modules-ts that I can try out. > *nod* I'll see if I can get enough of modules-ts type things working to provide some examples, but there's some more variance/uncertainty there in the compiler support, etc. > & if there are good paths forward for ways to prototype changes to the > build system to handle, say, specifying a switch/setting a property/turning > on a feature that I could implement that would collect all the .ccm files > in an add_library rule and use them to make a .pcm file - I'd be happy to > try prototyping that. > > > cmGeneratorTarget has a set of methods like GetResxSources which return a > subset of the files provided to add_library/target_sources by splitting > them by 'kind'. You would probably extend ComputeKindedSources to handle > the ccm extension, add a GetCCMFiles() to cmGeneratorTarget, then use that > new GetCCMFiles() in the makefiles/ninja generator to generate rules. > > When extending ComputeKindedSources could use > > if(Target->getPropertyAsBool("MAKE_CCM_RULES")) > > as a condition to populating the 'kind'. Then rules will only be created > for targets which use something like > > set_property(TARGET myTarget PROPERTY MAKE_CCM_RULES ON) > > in cmake code. > > I'm guessing that's enough for you to implement what you want as an > experiment? > OK, so in that case it requires source changes to cmake? *nod* sounds plausible - I appreciate the pointers. I take it that implies there's not a way I could hook into those file kinds and filters without changing cmake? (ie: from within my project's cmake build files, without modifying a cmake release) > > > Ideally, at least for a simplistic build, I wouldn't mind generating a >> modulemap from all the .h files (& have those headers listed in the >> add_library command - perhaps splitting public and private headers in some >> way, only including the public headers in the module file, likely). >> Eventually for the standards-proposal version, it's expected that there >> won't be any modulemap file, but maybe all headers are included in the >> module compilation (just pass the headers directly to the compiler). >> >> >> In a design based on passing directories instead of files, would those >> directories be redundant with the include directories? >> > > I'm not sure I understand the question, but if I do, I think the answer > would be: no, they wouldn't be redundant. The system will not have > precompiled modules available to use - because binary module definitions > are compiler (& compiler version, and to some degree, compiler flags (eg: > are you building this for x86 32 bit or 64 bit?)) dependent. > > > Right. I discussed modules with Nathan Sidwell meanwhile and realised this > too. > > > > >> One of the problems modules adoption will hit is that all the compilers >> are designing fundamentally different command line interfaces for them. >> > > *nod* We'll be working amongst GCC and Clang at least to try to converge > on something common. > > > Different flags would not be a problem for cmake at least, but if Clang > didn't have something like -fprebuilt-module-path and GCC did, that would > be the kind of 'fundamental' difference I mean. > > > This also doesn't start to approach the issue of how to build modules for >> external libraries - which I'm happy to discuss/prototype too, though >> interested in working to streamline the inter-library but intra-project >> (not inter-project) case first. >> >> >> Yes, there are many aspects to consider. >> >> Are you interested in design of a CMake abstraction for this stuff? I >> have thoughts on that, but I don't know if your level of interest stretches >> that far. >> > > Not sure how much work it'd be - at the moment my immediate interest is to > show as much real-world/can-actually-run prototype with cmake as possible, > either with or without changes to cmake itself (or a combination of minimal > cmake changes plus project-specific recipes of how to write a user's cmake > files to work with this stuff) or also showing non-working/hypothetical > prototypes of what ideal user cmake files would look like with > reasonable/viable (but not yet implemented) cmake support. > > > Yes, it's specifying the ideal user cmake files that I mean. Given that > granularity of modules can be anywhere on the spectrum between > one-module-file-per-library and one-module-file-per-class, I think cmake > will need to consider one-module-file-per-library and > *not*-one-module-file-per-library separately. > > In the *not*-one-module-file-per-library case, cmake might have to > delegate more to the user, so it would be more inconvenient for them. > I'm not sure why that would be the case - they'd hopefully be as easy as the other. The same way that header inclusion discovery doesn't require the user to do anything today - though maybe we'd get more thorough checking that you don't depend on modules from libraries you haven't depended upon, that'd be nice. > > In the one-module-file-per-library case, I think the ideal is something > like: > > add_library(foo foo.cpp) > # assuming foo.h is a module interface file, this creates > # a c++-module called foo and makes it an interface usage > # requirement of the foo target defined above > add_cxx_module(foo foo.h) > > # bar.cpp imports foo. > add_library(bar bar.cpp) > # bar links to foo, and a suitable compile line argument is added if > # needed for the foo module. > target_link_libraries(bar foo) > > This would work best if foo.h did not contain > > module; > export module foo; > > (after > http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p0713r1.html) > > but instead contained only > > module; > > and the module name came from the buildsystem (or from the compiler using > the basename). > > As it is, the above cmake code would have to determine the module name > from foo.h and throw an error if it was different from foo. Having the > module name inside the source just adds scope for things to be wrong. It > would be better to specify the module name on the outside. > > I wonder what you think about that, and whether it can be changed in the > modules ts? My thoughts on this and what the ideal in cmake would be are > changing as the discussion continues. > I'm not too involved in the standardization process - though I'm trying to help inform it by getting a better understanding of what's clear, what's not, how it all might come together & helping inform the committee of that. So I'm not sure if/how practical it would be to change that at this stage, but my default assumption would be "not easy" - at least in the sense that, for now, I'm mostly looking at trying to describe how the existing things could work (and what parts of that might be painful - including this name duplication sort of situations like you're pointing out) & likely leaving it to other people on the committee to decide if those pain points are sufficient to consider changing the design. > > > Can you help? It would really help my understanding of where things >> currently stand with modules. >> > > I can certainly have a go, for sure. > > > Great, thanks. > > > > >> For example, is there only one way to port the contents of the cpp files? >> > > Much like header grouping - how granular headers are (how many headers you > have for a given library) is up to the developer to some degree (certain > things can't be split up), similarly with modules - given a set of C++ > definitions, it's not 100% constrained how those definitions are exposed as > modules - the developer has some freedom over how the declarations of those > entities are grouped into modules. > > > Yes, exactly. This repo is small, but has a few libraries, so if we start > with one approach we should be easily able to also try a different approach > and examine what the difference is and what it means. > > > > >> After that, is there one importable module per class or one per shared >> library (which I think would make more sense for Qt)? >> > > Apparently (this was a surprise to me - since I'd been thinking about this > based on the Clang header modules (backwards compatibility stuff, not the > standardized/new language feature modules)) the thinking is probably > somewhere between one-per-class and one-per-shared-library. But for me, in > terms of how a build file would interact with this, more than > one-per-shared-library is probably the critical tipping point. > > > Yes. I think you're talking about the one-module-file-per-library and > *not*-one-module-file-per-library distinction I mentioned above. > > > If it was just one per shared library, then I'd feel like the > dependency/flag management would be relatively simple. You have to add a > flag to the linker commandline to link in a library, so you have to add a > flag to the compile step to reference a module, great. But, no, bit more > complicated than that given the finer granularity that's expected here. > > > "finer granularity that's *allowed* here" really. If there is a simple > thing for the user to do (ie one-module-file-per-library), then cmake can > make that simple to achieve (because the dependencies between modules are > the same as dependencies between targets, which the user already specifies > with target_link_libraries). > > If the user wants to do the more complicated thing > (*not*-one-module-file-per-library), then cmake can provide APIs for the > user to do that (perhaps by requiring the user to explicitly specify the > dependencies between modules). > > My point is that cmake can design optimize for the easy way and I think > users will choose the easy way most of the time. > > > > The git repo is an attempt to make the discussion concrete because it >> would show how multiple classes and multiple libraries with dependencies >> could interact in a modules world. I'm interested in what it would look >> like ported to modules-ts, because as far as I know, clang-modules and >> module maps would not need porting of the cpp files at all. >> > > Right, clang header-modules is a backwards compatibility feature. It does > require a constrained subset of C++ to be used to be effective (ie: > basically your headers need to be what we think of as ideal/canonical > headers - reincludable, independent, complete, etc). So if you've got > good/isolated headers, you can port them to Clang's header modules by > adding the module maps & potentially not doing anything else - though, if > you rely on not changing your build system, then that presents some > problems if you want to scale (more cores) or distribute your build. > Because the build system doesn't know about these dependencies - so if you > have, say, two .cc files that both include foo.h then bar.h - well, the > build system runs two compiles, both compiles try to implicitly build the > foo.h module - one blocks waiting for the other to complete, then they > continue and block again waiting for bar.h module to be built. If the build > system knew about these dependencies (what Google uses - what we call > "explicit (header)modules") then it could build the foo.h module and the > bar.h module in parallel, then build the two .cc files in parallel. > > > I think that the 'build a module' step should be a precondition to the > compile step. I think the compiler should issue an error if it encounters > an import for a module it doesn't find a file for. No one expects a linker > to compile foo.cpp into foo.o and link it just because it encounters a > fooFunc without a definition which was declared in foo.h. > > That would reduce the magic and expect something like > > add_cxx_module(somename somefile.h otherfiles.h) > > to specify a module file and its constituent partitions, which I think is > fine. > > > Basically: What do folks think about supporting these sort of features in >> CMake C++ Builds? Any pointers on how I might best implement this with or >> without changes to CMake? >> >> >> I think some design is needed up front. I expect CMake would want to have >> a first-class (on equal footing with include directories or compile >> definitions and with particular handling) concept for modules, extending >> the install(TARGET) command to install module binary files etc. >> > > Module binary files wouldn't be installed in the sense of being part of > the shipped package of a library - because module binary files are > compiler/flag/etc specific. > > > Ok. > > Thanks, > > Stephen. > >
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