Hi all, I've been experimenting with schema.org OpeningHoursSpecification, and currently Bing is scraping our hours, but Google isn't. I am using RDFa-lite and I've validated it using a linter (thanks Jason Ronallo!), so I'm scratching my head as to why our hours *still* don't show up on a google search.
I suspect part of it for us might be that we're re-branding away from Stockwell-Mudd Libraries to Albion College Library, as it's much more explanatory, but neither search through Google yields a nice box with hours in it like the SFPL. If and when I figure out the problem I'd be happy to send you an update of what we did and what caused it to finally work properly. On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Karen Coyle <li...@kcoyle.net> wrote: > Tom, Google will not tell you. The entirety of how Google search works is > a trade secret. We don't know the algorithm for ranking, and we don't know > what information they glean from web pages -- and they are unlikely to > tell. It is a constant on the schema.org discussion list that developers > want to know what Google/Bing/Yahoo/Yandex will do with specific > information in the web pages, and it is a constant that the reps there > reply: we cannot tell you that. The only way to find out is to code and > observe. > > kc > > > On 5/6/15 7:00 AM, Tom Keays wrote: > >> I'd like to find out how and why Google is parsing this information. If >> you >> go to the the SFPL hours page (first link in the Google results), and look >> at the source code, this is all you find. >> http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=0100000101 >> Is the ID in the DIV sufficient? It would be nice to have a set of use >> cases to work from. >> >> Currently, I'm generating a weekly hours box by pulling JSONP from the >> hours API of LibCal. I could easily output this in schema.org format (and >> probably will now), but can Google pick up the information from the DOM if >> it is delivered as JSON and transformed into HTML? >> >> <div id="library-hours"> >> <h2>Hours</h2> >> <table class="hours" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> >> <tr> >> <th>Sun</th> >> <th>Mon</th> >> <th>Tue</th> >> <th class="today">Wed</th> >> <th>Thu</th> >> <th>Fri</th> >> <th>Sat</th> >> </tr> >> <tr> >> <td>12-5</td> >> <td>10-6</td> >> <td>9-8</td> >> <td class="today">9-8</td> >> <td>9-8</td> >> <td>12-6</td> >> <td>10-6</td> >> </tr> >> </table> >> </div> >> >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Karen Coyle <li...@kcoyle.net> wrote: >> >> Charlie, I don't know of any libraries that have used schema.org for >>> their web site - perhaps others do. If it is used, it should be "picked >>> up" >>> the next time the search engines index the site. What the search engines >>> do >>> with schema.org is not guaranteed, but can be observed. It is not >>> guaranteed because none of the search engines will say what they do, as >>> that is considered a trade secret (especially from each other). >>> >>> However, as locations and hours are important for their commercial >>> customers (stores, restaurants, etc.) I would expect that to be picked up >>> as a matter of course. Note that already locations and hours for some >>> businesses do show in the search engines, and that is for sites that are >>> not yet using schema.org, so the engines have some way of picking that >>> up >>> from the HTML. The Google side-bar "knowledge graph" for my local >>> libraries >>> shows " Hours < >>> >>> https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&biw=1299&bih=561&q=san+francisco+public+library+larkin+street+hours&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDgzYHnxCXfq6-gVlZhbF5sZZ0drKVfk5-cmJJZn4enGGVkV9aVBzLKeznIsHxlTMy2S10V0iJwvZlMgBPWBDOSAAAAA&ei=qhlKVcKWJ8b7oQS65oCQCA&ved=0CJgBEOgTMBA >>> >: >>> >>> Open today · 9:00 am – 8:00 pm <javascript:void(0)> >>> " but I have no idea where that comes from. >>> >>> kc >>> >>> >>> On 5/6/15 5:22 AM, Charlie Morris wrote: >>> >>> I'm curious, Karen, Ethan or anyone else, do you know of any examples of >>>> libraries that have implemented schema.org or RDFa for hours data and >>>> have >>>> noticed that Google or some other search engine has picked it up (i.e., >>>> correctly displaying that data as part of the search results)? And if >>>> so, >>>> how quickly will Google or the like pickup on changes to hours (i.e., >>>> shifting between semesters or unplanned changes)? >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Ethan Gruber <ewg4x...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> +1 on the RDFa and schema.org. For those that don't know the library >>>> URL >>>> >>>>> off-hand, it is much easier to find a library website by Googling than >>>>> it >>>>> is to go through the central university portal, and the hours will show >>>>> up >>>>> at the top of the page after having been harvested by search engines. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Karen Coyle <li...@kcoyle.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Note that library hours is one of the possible bits of information >>>>> that >>>>> >>>>>> could be encoded as RDFa in the library web site, thus making it >>>>>> possible >>>>>> to derive library hours directly from the listing of hours on the web >>>>>> >>>>>> site >>>>> >>>>> rather than keeping a separate list. Schema.org does have the elements >>>>>> >>>>>> such >>>>> >>>>> that hours can be encoded. This would mean that hours could show in >>>>>> the >>>>>> display of the library's catalog entry on Google, Yahoo and Bing. >>>>>> Being >>>>>> available directly through the search engines might be sufficient, not >>>>>> necessitating creating yet-another-database for that data. >>>>>> >>>>>> Schema.org uses a restaurant as its opening hours example, but much of >>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> data would be the same for a library: >>>>>> >>>>>> <div vocab="http://schema.org/"; typeof="Restaurant"> >>>>>> <span property="name">GreatFood</span> >>>>>> <div property="aggregateRating" typeof="AggregateRating"> >>>>>> <span property="ratingValue">4</span> stars - >>>>>> based on <span property="reviewCount">250</span> reviews >>>>>> </div> >>>>>> <div property="address" typeof="PostalAddress"> >>>>>> <span property="streetAddress">1901 Lemur Ave</span> >>>>>> <span property="addressLocality">Sunnyvale</span>, >>>>>> <span property="addressRegion">CA</span> <span >>>>>> property="postalCode">94086</span> >>>>>> </div> >>>>>> <span property="telephone">(408) 714-1489</span> >>>>>> <a property="url" href="http://www.dishdash.com";> >>>>>> www.greatfood.com >>>>>> </a> >>>>>> Hours: >>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Sa 11:00-14:30">Mon-Sat >>>>>> 11am >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> 2:30pm >>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Th 17:00-21:30">Mon-Thu >>>>>> 5pm - >>>>>> 9:30pm >>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Fr-Sa 17:00-22:00">Fri-Sat >>>>>> 5pm - >>>>>> 10:00pm >>>>>> Categories: >>>>>> <span property="servesCuisine"> >>>>>> Middle Eastern >>>>>> </span>, >>>>>> <span property="servesCuisine"> >>>>>> Mediterranean >>>>>> </span> >>>>>> Price Range: <span property="priceRange">$$</span> >>>>>> Takes Reservations: Yes >>>>>> </div> >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems to me that using schema.org would get more bang for the buck >>>>>> -- >>>>>> it would get into the search engines and could also be aggregated into >>>>>> whatever database is needed. As we've seen with OCLC, having a >>>>>> separate >>>>>> listing is likely to mean that the data will be out of date. >>>>>> >>>>>> kc >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/5/15 2:19 PM, nitin arora wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't see they distinguished between public libraries and other >>>>>> types >>>>>> on >>>>>> their campaign page. >>>>>> >>>>>>> They say " all libraries" as far as I can see. >>>>>>> So I suppose then that this is true for "all libraries": >>>>>>> "Libraries offer a space anyone can enter, where money isn't >>>>>>> exchanged, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> documentation doesn't have to be shown." >>>>>>> Who knew fines and library/student-IDs were a thing of the past? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only data sets I can find where they got the 17,000 number is for >>>>>>> public libraries: >>>>>>> http://www.imls.gov/research/pls_data_files.aspx >>>>>>> Maybe I missed something. >>>>>>> There is an hours field on one of the CSVs I downloaded, etc for 2012 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> data >>>>>> (the most recent I could find). >>>>>> >>>>>>> Asking 10k for something targeted for completion in June and without >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> grasp on what types of libraries there are and how volatile the hours >>>>>>> information is (especially in crisis) ... >>>>>>> Sounds naive at best, sketchy at worst. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The "flexible funding" button says "this campaign will receive all >>>>>>> funds >>>>>>> raised even if it does not reach its goals". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The value of these places for youth cannot be underestimated." >>>>>>> So is the value of a quick buck ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:53 PM, McCanna, Terran < >>>>>>> tmcca...@georgialibraries.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not at all surprised that this doesn't already exist, and >>>>>>> even if >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OCLC's was available, I'd be willing to bet it was out of date. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Public library hours, especially in underfunded areas, may fluctuate >>>>>>>> depending on funding cycles, seasons (whether school is in or out), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> etc., >>>>>>> >>>>>> not to mention closing/reopening/moving because of old buildings that >>>>>> >>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> to be updated. We have around 280 locations in our consortium and we >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>> to rely on self-reporting to find out if their hours change. We >>>>>> >>>>>>> certainly >>>>>>> >>>>>> don't have staff time to check every one of their web sites on regular >>>>>> >>>>>>> basis, I can't imagine keeping track of 17,000! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Terran McCanna >>>>>>>> PINES Program Manager >>>>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service >>>>>>>> 1800 Century Place, Suite 150 >>>>>>>> Atlanta, GA 30345 >>>>>>>> 404-235-7138 >>>>>>>> tmcca...@georgialibraries.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Peter Murray" <jes...@dltj.org> >>>>>>>> To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 4:36:56 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Library Hours >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OCLC has an institutional registry [1], which had (in part) library >>>>>>>> hours, >>>>>>>> addresses, and so forth. It seems to be unavailable, though [2]. >>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> the only systematic collection of library hours data that I know >>>>>>>> about. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] https://www.oclc.org/worldcat-registry.en.html >>>>>>>> [2] https://www.worldcat.org/registry/institution/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 5, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Bigwood, David < >>>>>>>> dbigw...@hou.usra.edu> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This looks like a decent group, but I find this statement hard to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Your tax-deductible donation supports adding the names, address >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> hours of operation of all libraries to Range. The Institute of Museum >>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>> Library Services publishes an open data catalog which is the source >>>>>> >>>>>>> we'll >>>>>>> >>>>>> use for the names and the addresses of the nation's libraries. >>>>>> However, >>>>>> >>>>>>> there isn't a listing of the days and hours of operation for all >>>>>>>> libraries >>>>>>>> in the US. We are going to track down the hours of operation for all >>>>>>>> 17,000 >>>>>>>> libraries and make that information available -- in Range and for >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> developers who may want to use it." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/range-food-and-safe-places-for-youth >>>>> >>>>> Are the hours of public libraries really not available? >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> David Bigwood >>>>>>>>> dbigw...@gmail.com<mailto:dbigw...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> Lunar and Planetary Institute >>>>>>>>> @LPI_Library >>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lunarandplanetaryinstitute/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>> Karen Coyle >>>>>> kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net >>>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234 >>>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>> Karen Coyle >>> kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net >>> m: +1-510-435-8234 >>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >>> >>> > -- > Karen Coyle > kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net > m: +1-510-435-8234 > skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 > -- Megan (O'Neill) Kudzia Web Services & Emerging Technologies Librarian Albion College Library 602 E. Cass St. Albion, MI 49224
