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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Fwd: Re: OOPs!! When is a class not a class? (Re:
Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language)
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. S9: sketch of yet another unnamed conlang
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Grammar sketchlang - improving?
From: Ben Poplawski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Tolkien's "hidden" conlang
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: CHAT: When is an Apache not an apache? (was: When is a class not a class?)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: CHAT: When is an Apache not an apache? (was: When is a class not a class?)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamaný n Kefyi .. ."
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: what makes a con-script a Con-Script?
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: what makes a con-script a Con-Script?
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Celtic languages?
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Diachronical Language: the Newest Sketch
From: Ben Poplawski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: CHAT Fridge magnets (was: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!)
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: newbie: have alphabet, will conlang
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Arabic Questions
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Contemporaneous protolanguages
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Celtic languages?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Contemporaneous protolanguages
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: S9: sketch of yet another unnamed conlang
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: what makes a con-script a Con-Script?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Novel ConGrammar
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Tolkien's "hidden" conlang
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:43:13 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: OOPs!! When is a class not a class? (Re:
Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language)
Philippe Caquant wrote:
> Forgot to look at the "reply to" address... Jeg sender
> videre...
>
>> --- Pablo Flores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>skrev:
<snip>
>>I didn't fancy the problem. See what Our Beloved David
>>Flanagan says in the Holy Book,
Philippe, you needn't snipe!
>> chapter 11, section
>>"Converting objects into primary values" (my
>>regrettable re-translation):
>>
<snip>
>>So, is it a string ?
It's a string. Strings are objects, numbers are not. The concatenation
will work just fine. Ambiguous it is, but not to the degree it seems.
>>-----
>>Said John Cowan:
>>
>>"It's a matter of point of view. If you conceive of concatenation
>>as "string addition" (in the same way that we conceive of integer
>>and floating-point addition as being "the same thing", though to the
>>CPU they are utterly different), then it makes sense to use the same
>>operator for them. But if you conceive of concatenation and addition
>>as two different things, it makes sense to use two different operators."
>>
>>I agree. To me, these are completely different
>>concepts and there is no reason to use the same symbol
>>for both, except maybe that there wasn't any common
>>symbol at hand any more, which would be a very bad
>>reason indeed.
Then VB's the language for you! You have "&" for concatenation and "+"
for addition.
>>I don't know Ada, but this looks nice. My idea was to
>>represent all operator concepts by 3-char mnemonics,
>>like "ADD" for Addition, "CCT" for concatenating,
>>etc... well, looks rather much like Assembler, doesn't
>>it ? So you could write programs using these codes,
>>and then a processor would translate it into Cobol,
>>Pascal, JavaScript or whatever. (Probably too simple,
>>there must be some problem somewhere).
But what about the poor sod who has to maintain it later?
>>Said Keith Gaughan:
>>
>>Keith Gaughan:
>>
>>"JavaScript objects are all typed, and variables gain a type when you do
>>an assignment. That way, it doesn't get mixed up when you're doing
>>concatenation or addition."
>>
>>(See above)
See above. ;-D
>>"I don't know if you've heard of it, but the language Tcl similarly to
>>how you've described Pick BASIC, treating everything
>>as a string."
>>
>>Well, TCL is used on Pick Systems. It's more or less
>>at the same level as SQL on other systems. There is
>>also something very unfriendly called "PROC", allowing
>>you to write scripts. PROC is the worst part of Pick
>>Systems. But I cannot see that Pick Basic "treats
>>everything like a string" - or maybe you mean that it
>>parses the value before trying to do some arithmetic
>>operation on it ?
No, Tcl (note the case) is a far different beastie. It's pronounced
"tickle", and means "Tool command language". The ideas (minimalist
interpreter, pass-by-name, universal type, etc.) are quite cool, but
coming to the language can be quite a shock as it looks deceptively
like part of the C family. However, it's terribly useful, and the
Tk toolkit, though ugly as sin, is great for building GUIs.
Slam it, as with anything I mention that you might be unfamiliar with,
into Google for more details.
>>"The use of ":" for concatenation is very unusual!"
>>
>>I think it was more common earlier. ":" is also used
>>(by Pick) in the PRINT instruction:
>>
>>PRINT "BONJOUR":
>>will print the word without a linefeed after it,
>>while:
>>PRINT "BONJOUR"
>>will send a linefeed after the string. And it is not
>>so stupid, because there seem to be more cases where
>>you would be happy to get the linefeed without
>>having
>>to add "\n" or other esoteric codes than the
>>contrary.
>>
>>( ";" is used to separate instructions on a same
>>line,
>>but no Pick instruction has to be ended by ";", or
>>".", or whatever)
Now that's *incredibly* unusual for a BASIC! The usual way of stopping
the linefeed (going back to the original Dartmouth BASIC, if I'm
correct) is with ";", whereas the statement seperator is ":".
>>--------
>>(To John Cowan):
>>"Apache" means "malfaiteur, bandit" in French (and
>>also "Apache", of course), but this sounds a little
>>outdated by now. Anyway, I guess it's not
>>politically
>>correct at all.
Oddly enough, in English (or at least in my dialect) "cowboy" would be
translated into French as "malfaiteur, bandit". It's typically used to
refer to "cowboy builders", i.e. construction firms that do a shoddy
job and charge a fortune to do it.
K.
--
Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
The man who removes a mountain begins
by carrying away small stones...
...to make place for some really big nukes!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:46:54 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: S9: sketch of yet another unnamed conlang
Hi!
Here's a text from which I want to find out the grammar of a new
conlang of mine. Maybe you want to have a look.
Ufta do vialt hat gip de ma uine lang un iuni huva. Na di fone si
hat stat, hat fin di de pais "`Sina"' un nali setel di. Un di meka
hat zat: "`Lat os meotke brin!"' Un da brin zine meotke hat is de
brik, un ne ta hat is ne meat.
All in heavy flux, but still... :-)
Bye,
Henrik
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:47:49 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
> P.S. You mission, if you choose to accept it, is to pick out some other
> dialectisms in the above text.
... which is now actually the below text.
Lessee. "wee". "..., so I do." Is "does other effects"
Hiberno-English? My 'lect requires "has" there in place of "does".
-Marcos
On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 10:08:54PM +0100, Keith Gaughan wrote:
> Be assured, I'm quite fluent in English and have spoken it since I was a
> wee child. If you pay really good attention to what I write, you'll
> probably notice that I've a tendancy to slip back into Sligo
> Hiberno-English, so I do.
>
> What you picked out is a pretty salient example of the dialect. The
> adverb 'after' is used to modify the sentence to a near-past perfect
> tense when used with the present continuous. It does other effects when
> used in with the future, e.g. 'you'd/'ll be after a drink, won't you?',
> meaning 'Do you want a drink?'. I think this crops up in some british
> dialects, but I'm not sure which.
>
> The meaning comes from the use of the phrase 'tar eis' (these days
> written by some as 'tareis', but that looks terrible and Irish is rarely
> their first language when they do), meaning... no, guess! Yup, 'after'.
> The Hiberno-English usage is identical to the one in Gaelic, all forms.
>
> The meaning you mentioned would be understood, but we wouldn't use it
> here.
>
> K.
>
> --
> Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
> The man who removes a mountain begins
> by carrying away small stones...
> ...to make place for some really big nukes!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:04:37 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
Joe wrote:
> Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
>> You know, you just don't notice your own dialectism when you're typing.
>>
>> Be assured, I'm quite fluent in English and have spoken it since I was a
>> wee child. If you pay really good attention to what I write, you'll
>> probably notice that I've a tendancy to slip back into Sligo
>> Hiberno-English, so I do.
>
> Sligo, eh? I used to live in Leitrim (Drumshanbo, to be exact).
Leitrim? You must have been the only one there[1]. :-)
Nah, Drumshambo's not too bad. Little bit of trivia: apparrently,
Roscommon has both the highest number of chipshops and UFO sightings per
capita outside the the US in the world. Much as I love her, the way my
friend Caroline acts confirms that all the time... :-)
I'm from the south of the county, Aclare to be exact, home to, uh,
stuff...
> Not too far. Used to go shopping in Sligo. But that was a long time ago,
> back when I was around 7.
>
>> What you picked out is a pretty salient example of the dialect. The
>> adverb 'after' is used to modify the sentence to a near-past perfect
>> tense when used with the present continuous. It does other effects when
>> used in with the future, e.g. 'you'd/'ll be after a drink, won't you?',
>> meaning 'Do you want a drink?'. I think this crops up in some british
>> dialects, but I'm not sure which.
>
> 'You'll be after a drink' is a different construction, though - since
> 'after a drink' means 'wanting a drink', in British English, anyway.
It pops up in Gaelic (around my parts anyway), so it might have been one
of the constructions/phrases that successfully jumped language and
became widespread. Mind you, it's not with 'tar eis', but with something
else, though the actual one doesn't spring to mind right now.
>> The meaning comes from the use of the phrase 'tar eis' (these days
>> written by some as 'tareis', but that looks terrible and Irish is rarely
>> their first language when they do), meaning... no, guess! Yup, 'after'.
>> The Hiberno-English usage is identical to the one in Gaelic, all forms.
>
> Welsh, too. 'Rydw i wedi gwneud' - 'I have done' - 'Am I after doing'.
All down to a lack of a direct equivalent to 'to have'.
>> P.S. You mission, if you choose to accept it, is to pick out some other
>> dialectisms in the above text.
>
> 'fraid I couldn't spot any - apart from 'wee'. But I speak British
> English, spent two years living in Ireland, and have an Irish
> grandfather. So I might just be adapted to it.
Well, there's one glaring one that shows that I'm from around the
border, and that is the use of the tag statement "so X
do/am/will/have/would/etc.". You should be more than familar with
that one from Father Ted. For shame, and you having lived there too!
"Wee" is another dialectism shared in the north and border counties
with Scotland. You don't here it down here in Cork. You wouldn't believe
the ribbing I get from my friends when Sligoisms end up slipping into
my speech. You can't tell where a Sligoman is from from his accent,
(ours seems to have become the standard, if only through fluke, or maybe
Yeats) but you can through his idiom.
K.
[1] Slagging off Leitrim is just short of being a national sport, along
with slagging off Dublin, Tipperary, and, in particular, Kerry.
Don't ask me why...
--
Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
The man who removes a mountain begins
by carrying away small stones...
...to make place for some really big nukes!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:14:46 -0400
From: Ben Poplawski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Grammar sketchlang - improving?
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:09:21 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> based on ideas in this list...
>
>
>Possible Glossary for a Conlang...
>
>Pronouns:
> | male | female
>plains | ien | ine
>mountain | iña | iñ
>scrub | ioñe | oñe
>desert | niñ | ñin
>caves | oeñ | oen
>coast | ayoñ | ayñ
>lake | añ | añea
>sea | ana | aña
>
>Wordlist:
> | word | word-as-noun | word-as-verb
>landslide | aka-ebe | akayebe | akanebe
>smooth | oa-eb |oayneb | oaneb |{note: when the
>word ends in a consonant, insert an |n| following the |y|}.
>
> getting better?
Nice.
Couple questions: what does n-tilde stand for? [J]? [N]? What distinguishes
a word from a word-as-noun or from a word-as-verb? Is it the stem of the word?
Ben
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:00:34 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's "hidden" conlang
http://books.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n6/n32941.htm?authorid=8101
http://www.bowjamesbow.net/2004/01/12-were_back.shtml
"Unfortunately, Ms. Wrightson is not well known in North America. I was very
fortunate to come upon her book, The Nargun and the Stars (published in 1973),
in a used bookstore in Halifax. In this book, orphaned Simon Brent is sent to
live with an "aunt" and "uncle" (actually, second cousins to his mother) in a
ranch called Wongadilla, at the foot of a mountain. Exploring the place, Simon
discovers a swamp and a forest, and ancient, playful creatures that lived before
the aboriginies came. But he also discovers the Nargun, an ancient, dangerous
creature of stone, whose slow progress across the mountain has it on a collision
course with the ranch."
I think the translator changed it. Perhaps the translator was a fan of Tolkien?
Anyway - anywhey? ;) - it's one of those delightful and amusing coincidences -
the Australian rock-spirit and the Dwarves - transmogrified European
rock-spirits - sharing a similar name. ;) (though one would like to know which
Australian language Ms Wrightson used to get it - it's set in NSW, FWIW ;)
> Helge Fauskanger's article on Khuzdul might be interesting to you:
> http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/khuzdul.htm
> Andreas
Thanks. I've had a look - I think he's missed the d-w-m "dum" part -
biconsonantal roots in Semitic languages, unless I am much mistaken, often
involve a semiconsonant -w-, -i- as the middle consonant, and Tolkien was
knowledgable in Biblical/Classical Hebrew.
Wesley Parish
Quoting Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Quoting Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Thanks. I've just had a look at it - you know, there's a story by an
> > Australian children's author, called "The Nargun and the Stars"?
> >
> > It's got nothing to do with Tolkien to the best of my knowledge, and
> nothing
> > to do with Dwarvish - just a coincidence. ;)
>
> Unless they changed it in the Swedish translation, it's "Nargon".
>
> (Which, by shape, could be Sindarin for "tale-rock".)
>
> Andreas
>
"Sharpened hands are happy hands.
"Brim the tinfall with mirthful bands"
- A Deepness in the Sky, Vernor Vinge
"I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!"
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the
other horizon. - emacs : meta x dissociated-press
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:30:12 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: When is an Apache not an apache? (was: When is a class not a class?)
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:32:44 -0400, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what is "un(e) apache"?
Apparently, it is a member of the French underworld (a gangster)
--
Listen Johnny;
You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
And you're still falling,
And if they come tonight
You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:25:09 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: When is an Apache not an apache? (was: When is a class not a class?)
> > >Yes, I think so. BTW, I recently learned that Apache
> > >is pronounced like "Apatshee" by the Anglo-Saxon,
> > >while we say "Apash". So my knowledge is not totally
> > >null on that topic :-)
That reminds me of when I was watching a gardening show on BBC
America, and they described a plant called an /@'gejv/ (more or less).
I wondered what the hell it was until I saw the plant -- and knew it
as /@'gAvi/ or /@'gAve/- Agave americana - the century plant, or in
Mexican Spanish the Maguey /ma'gej/
My mind wandered into such thoughts as "What is a "gave""? "How does
one get a "gave""?
--
Listen Johnny;
You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
And you're still falling,
And if they come tonight
You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:36:00 +0100
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamaný n Kefyi .. ."
--- Steg Belsky skrzypszy:
> >> I've just got an email on the address I only use for the list
> >> with the title "Sorunsuz Yaþamanýn Keyfi" by bilgi at
> >> kutsandanismanlik dot com. [...]
> I also got it. Looks like mis-encoded Turkish to me.
That seems correct. I got the same message too, and after I manually
changed the encoding to Turkish (ISO), it suddenly became proper
Turkish. At least, that what I think, not knowing Turkish but seeing
it every day.
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:02:28 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
> Well, there's one glaring one that shows that I'm from around the
> border, and that is the use of the tag statement "so X
> do/am/will/have/would/etc.". You should be more than familar with
> that one from Father Ted. For shame, and you having lived there too!
>
Ah, you see, I didn't count that - I use it too.
> "Wee" is another dialectism shared in the north and border counties
> with Scotland. You don't here it down here in Cork. You wouldn't believe
> the ribbing I get from my friends when Sligoisms end up slipping into
> my speech. You can't tell where a Sligoman is from from his accent,
> (ours seems to have become the standard, if only through fluke, or maybe
> Yeats) but you can through his idiom.
>
Yes, I wasn't quite sure whether it was a borrowing from Scottish in a
semi-jocular fashion or an actual dialectal feature.
> K.
>
> [1] Slagging off Leitrim is just short of being a national sport, along
> with slagging off Dublin, Tipperary, and, in particular, Kerry.
> Don't ask me why...
Yes, I don't see why. From what I remember, it was rather pretty.
Empty, perhaps, but pretty.
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:07:31 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "I'm after ..." (Re: Maybe Spam? "Sorunsuz Yathamanýn Kefyi .. .")
Joe wrote:
> Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, there's one glaring one that shows that I'm from around the
>> border, and that is the use of the tag statement "so X
>> do/am/will/have/would/etc.". You should be more than familar with
>> that one from Father Ted. For shame, and you having lived there too!
>>
Talking about dialectisms - the most prominent one I remember in Leitrim
(dunno about the rest of Ireland) is the use of 'lookit!' instead of
'look at that!'.
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:11:20 +0200
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what makes a con-script a Con-Script?
--- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> On Saturday, September 25, 2004, at 04:33 , Philippe
> Caquant wrote:
>
> > --- Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> >
> >> if you had five or fewer tablet (each the size of
> >> your palm), which had
> >> symbols etched in them...how would you know that
> it
> >> was a written
> >> language?...as opposed to random slashes in the
> >> rock...or something else?
> >>
> >> just wondering.
> >>
> > Probably by noticing that some symbols come back
> at
> > different places, especially if they are not very
> > simple ones (like a single stroke), and perhaps
> even
> > come back in a similar "context" ?
>
> Nope - it does not confirm that you have writing.
> Symbols are certainly
> repeated on the Phaistos Disk and certain groupings
> have been noted, i.e.
> some symbols do come back in a similar context. But
> as more than one
> person has plausibly shown, the disk might be a
> board for a game, and not
> writing at all.
OK, but the original question was about distinguishing
between something meaningful and something totally
natural or at random. A game is meaningful, even if
it's not "writing".
But the question is not so simple, as the magazine
"Science et Vie" (october 2004) tells us, about the
"Voynich Manuscript". Specialists have been working 4
centuries on it and they couldn't yet decide what it
might mean, and does it mean something at all (or is
it simply a forgery, a hoax).
There is a site about it: www.voynich.net
=====
Philippe Caquant
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:42:41 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what makes a con-script a Con-Script?
On Sep 28, 2004, at 9:11 AM, Philippe Caquant wrote:
> But the question is not so simple, as the magazine
> "Science et Vie" (october 2004) tells us, about the
> "Voynich Manuscript". Specialists have been working 4
> centuries on it and they couldn't yet decide what it
> might mean, and does it mean something at all (or is
> it simply a forgery, a hoax).
> There is a site about it: www.voynich.net
> Philippe Caquant
Wired magazine has an article about someone who claims to have
deciphered the Voynich manuscript as not being language, just
semi-random symbols:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/rugg.html
-Stephen (Steg)
"You know, I rather like this God fellow.
Very theatrical, you know.
Pestilence here, a plague there.
Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that."
~ stewie griffin, _family guy_
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:35:29 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Celtic languages?
On Monday, September 27, 2004, at 07:52 , Joe wrote:
> Ray Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> I need to be convinced that the P ~ Q split occurred before the Gaelic
>> and
>> Brittonic languages developed. There is also a similar P ~ Q split among
>> the Italic languages: for example Latin belonged to Q langs, Sabine
>> belonged to the P group. Those who posit a Celto-Italic family sometimes
>> put the Q ~ P split even earlier than Jo. But I see no need to do this.
>> Similar divisions occurred in the ancient Greek dialects and AFAIK no one
>> has suggested linking the division there either to the P ~ Q split in the
>> 'Celtic' langs or in the Italic langs.
>>
>
> There's no actual evidence, but I find it makes things easier for me.
Right - so basically simplification of classification.
If all the languages are related, the Q versions surely represents the
oldest forms; P is an innovation. It could well be that Brittonic &
Gaulish changed to P, and that proto-Irish remained Q, and other
continental forms also remained Q. But without far more evidence than we
have, I fail to see how we can certain.
> Whichever way round you put it, it's bound to be controversial.
Of course, without more evidence.
>>> Pictish may fit somewhere in here as well. But it's not very certain.
>>
>>
>> Indeed, not. Some claim Pictish wasn't even IE - our knowledge is too
>> scanty, I think, to make any safe assumption.
>>
>
> Well, it does seem to use (Q-Celtic) naming methods - 'maqqi' meaning
> 'son of'. That's about all that's been translated.
If that's really all that's been translated, then how can we even be sure
that Pictish _maqqi_ is the same as Old Irish. After all, both English &
French have a word written _chat_, but they're not related or mean the
same thing. Also AFAIK there's no IE etymology for Gaelic _mac_ & Welsh
_mab_ (son). Even if Pictish _maqqi_ has the same meaning, it could be
just that Pictish was a survival of the non-IE language from which
proto-Gaelic and Brittonic borrowed their word.
I have seen it claimed there were two Pictish langs - one IE and another
non-IE.
[snip]
>> There are some supposed Celtiberian inscriptions but my understanding is
>> that they are sparse and give us little information. The Iberian
>> insctptions AFAIK remain undeciphered and the language is considered
>> non-IE. The descriptions of the ancients suggest the Celtiberi were a
>> mixed Celtic & Iberian group.
>
>
> The 'Iberian'(not Celtiberian) language is believed to be related to
> Basque.
By whom? My information is that Iberian shows no relationship to Basque.
> The Celtiberian language is fairly sparse, it's true, but it
> also has a few larger texts.
Where are they published? What do they show?
[snip]
>> much the same. How much _direct_ evidence do we have about the Galatian
>> language?
>>
>
> I don't believe we have any. Apart from place names, of course.
Place names are tricky things - people often take over names from the
language they displaced. But what are the place names in question?
[snip]
>> I notice you confidently say that Celtibrian is Q-celtic. To day that,
>> you
>> must have more information than I have - which is by no means improbable.
>> What is your information? This is not meant to be critical - I really
>> want
>> to know.
>
>
>
> In the texts we have, we have '-cue' meaning 'and'. We also have */p/
> being lost - 'uer' for Latin 'super'.
The loss of IE /p/ is common to both Q and P 'Celts'. If _uer_ is cognate
with Latin _super_ we also have a loss of /s/.
That's very slight evidence.
=============================================================
On Monday, September 27, 2004, at 05:04 , John Cowan wrote:
Joe scripsit:
>>> We know no other language related to Iberian, and the only language
>>> truly related to Basque is Aquitanian (preserved as proper names in
>>> Latin texts), which should rightly be called "Old Basque", since it is
>>> transparently Basque.
>>
>> Are you quite sure of that, or is it controversial?
>
> It is not controversial among vascologists, at least.
I was not aware that what John had written was controversial either. The
obvious language to use to make sense of the Iberian fragments was, of
course, Basque. But it became clear fairly early on, I understand, that
there just was no connexion.
I was also aware of the Aquitanian-Basque connexion.
==================================================================
On Monday, September 27, 2004, at 09:50 , Rodlox wrote:
>> Galatian - are there any inscriptions? It seems that around 280 BCE a
>> group of Galatai made their way from the Balkans into Asia Minor.
>
> I'd once heard that they came from France, originally.
I wasn't aware the Galatai were ever in Gaul/France. I thought all the
ancient references referred to the Balkans & Asia Minor. What evidence do
we have of a group moving across Europe from France before settling in
Asia Minor?
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 02:53:54 -0400
From: Ben Poplawski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Diachronical Language: the Newest Sketch
I've been working on a (fictional) diachronic language for some time now.
Years, in fact, off and on.
I have the latest right here: http://benpop.cgweb.us/lang/chulbi.html
Note: There is no link to that from the directory index page.
Many intermediate forms were omitted when showing rough evolution; hopefully
you can follow the changes.
A post was made on this some time ago that resides here:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408A&L=conlang&P=R7133&X=5A204146894D4EC04F&[EMAIL
PROTECTED]
Further notes: {
The pronunciation of |j| depends on the time. In earlier forms it is [j]. In
the latest form it follows English to stand for [dZ].
The Chulbi are one tribe among a nation that conquered their present living
space some good years ago. They are rather small but have the city of
Chulbin (merely the associative [or genitive, if you like] of "Chulbi"), the
largest city of the Tribes (as they call themselves), where the University
of Chulbin resides and the Council of Tribes sits. The largest tribe, the
Chossi, surrounds the Chulbin territory.
Other dialects do exist. I am now focusing on the Chulbi/urban dialect. Some
have the folk hero Marjan as Morien instead (in his own tongue he was Maurgian).
Lord Marjan is the George Washington of the tribes, a brilliant strategist
and politician that united the tribes and drove out the last of the previous
peoples.
}
A good day to you all,
Ben
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:04:15 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Fridge magnets (was: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!)
Roger Mills wrote, quoting Arthaey Angosii:
> > I *really* like your refrigerator magnet idea, Adrian.
>
> SO DO I!!
>
> Not so seriously, if we had an Official Conlang Drink or Hors d'oeuvres we
> could decorate them with a little flag on a toothpick...;-))))
I just thought I'd idly mention that the nearest Signarama shop is a
short walk away from me, if any ideas are sparked by what's mentioned
here: <http://www.signarama.com.au/products/other.htm>.
Adrian.
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 03:29:54 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: newbie: have alphabet, will conlang
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:50:37 +1000, Glenn Alexander
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:42, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>
>> >Suggestions for better choice of letters welcome, I'm a bit
>> >English-centric ATM, so have likely missed something.
>>
>> Nothing bad about that, since scripts aren't but for
>> languages.
>
>I'm mostly interested in spacing the letters (phonically) as far apart
>as possible, so there may be some sounds in other languages that make
>better defaults than the ones I chose. Possibly not, too :-)
You have many different fricatives with the tongue tip (th, s, sh). I guess
that many people would think these sounds are more like each other than
e.g. /p/ and /b/. I believe that there can be no judgement on the
likeliness of sounds that isn't determined by the languages one speaks.
It's strange that you have a single sign for h and schwa. You have few back
consonants, only /g/. Me as a German speaking would consider the
distinction between [x] and [h] to be bigger than any distinction of th and
s or of s and sh.
(For those who don't have the link, the script is here:
http://www.shoalhaven.net.au/~glenalec/link/letters.html )
>> It would be nice to see some text in this script in order to
>> see how the signs join on lines (are they all of the same
>> hight?).
>
>No. I deliberately included risers and descenders of varying widths to
>make word-shape as distinctive as possible (in theory anyway -- I
>haven't got a vocab yet, so haven't tested the look properly at this
>stage. First things first). According to Language Education 2 at Uni.
>(I'm a Primary Teacher by training) that is important for site-word
>recognition which in turn leads to faster reading speeds with less
>errors (well that's what I was taught anyway, and it seems to make
>sense).
So you're concerned about writing speed without ever having written? :)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 03:44:31 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Arabic Questions
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:44:09 EDT, David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>J. wrote:
>
><<Voiceless glottal? I think this was about voiced pharyngeal. ??>>
>
>Someone had said that *my* description was that of a voiced [h], or [h\].
>I was trying to show that it wasn't, and conjecturing about how one might
>have come to that conclusion.
How could I not see it!
><<Maybe your misunderstanding is based on you two having different notions
>of the open back unrounded vowel [A], that is, Christian might think of it
>having in mind the Züritüütsch example, while David might think of it
>having in mind the English example. I'm not accusing anyone of being
>unaware that the IPA/X-SAMPA/CXS vowels are intended to be describe
>absolute qualities, but I just think we can't help being conditioned by our
>native languages.>>
>
>I don't follow. Can you explain more? :)
An unsyllabic version of his [A] may be the same as a voiced version of his
[h], while an unsyllabic version of your [A] may be the same as your [?\].
Of course, any [A] should be the same as any [A], but I suppose that
normally these notions are heavily influenced by one's native language.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:23:10 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Contemporaneous protolanguages
>
> > > Cole-Syria (that spit of land linking Egypt to Arabia & Palestine) ->
> > > Mediterranean (sailboat or at least a raft) ->
> > > home of the Sumerians.
> > > would that work?
> >
> > Coele-Syria, if i remember correctly, *is*
> > Palestine/Israel/Canaan/etc., as well as Lebanon (i.e. pretty much the
> > whole Levant area). It's a Greek name meaning something like "Hollow
> > Syria", referring to the northern non-oceanic part of the African-Asian
> > Rift.
> > The spit of land you're thinking of is probably the Sinai peninsula.
>
> my Egyptology teacher said that that was Cole-Syria...at least during the
> time of Ramses.
>
> > The Sumerians lived in what's now Kuwait (at least if any of it wasn't
> > underwater at the time) and southern Iraq
>
> umm...then why all the talk of crossing deserts? :) just sail *around*
> Arabia.
>
> yes? :)
>
>
>
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:31:40 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Celtic languages?
==================================================================
> On Monday, September 27, 2004, at 09:50 , Rodlox wrote:
>
> >> Galatian - are there any inscriptions? It seems that around 280 BCE a
> >> group of Galatai made their way from the Balkans into Asia Minor.
> >
> > I'd once heard that they came from France, originally.
>
> I wasn't aware the Galatai were ever in Gaul/France. I thought all the
> ancient references referred to the Balkans & Asia Minor. What evidence do
> we have of a group moving across Europe from France before settling in
> Asia Minor
an archeologist from Holland mentioned it in passing.
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:50:05 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Contemporaneous protolanguages
On Sep 28, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Rodlox wrote:
>>>> Cole-Syria (that spit of land linking Egypt to Arabia & Palestine)
>>>> ->
>>>> Mediterranean (sailboat or at least a raft) ->
>>>> home of the Sumerians.
>>>> would that work?
>>> Coele-Syria, if i remember correctly, *is*
>>> Palestine/Israel/Canaan/etc., as well as Lebanon (i.e. pretty much
>>> the
>>> whole Levant area). It's a Greek name meaning something like "Hollow
>>> Syria", referring to the northern non-oceanic part of the
>>> African-Asian
>>> Rift.
>>> The spit of land you're thinking of is probably the Sinai peninsula.
>> my Egyptology teacher said that that was Cole-Syria...at least
>> during the time of Ramses.
Weird... which Rameses?
I just read a website that said that both of us are wrong, and
Coele-Syria is the Mediterranean coastline north of the Litani river.
>>> The Sumerians lived in what's now Kuwait (at least if any of it
>>> wasn't underwater at the time) and southern Iraq
>> umm...then why all the talk of crossing deserts? :) just sail
>> *around* Arabia.
>> yes? :)
Hmmm... i dunno, would people back then have been able to do that?
-Stephen (Steg)
"You know, I rather like this God fellow.
Very theatrical, you know.
Pestilence here, a plague there.
Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that."
~ stewie griffin, _family guy_
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:02:02 +0100
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: S9: sketch of yet another unnamed conlang
Staving Henrik Theiling:
>Hi!
>
>Here's a text from which I want to find out the grammar of a new
>conlang of mine. Maybe you want to have a look.
>
> Ufta do vialt hat gip de ma uine lang un iuni huva. Na di fone si
> hat stat, hat fin di de pais "`Sina"' un nali setel di. Un di meka
> hat zat: "`Lat os meotke brin!"' Un da brin zine meotke hat is de
> brik, un ne ta hat is ne meat.
>
First few lines of the Babel text. Apparently Germanic, with a bit of
French influence. I reckon its meant to be a fairly close relative of
English, maybe an alternative history English. How close am I?
Pete
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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:10:12 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what makes a con-script a Con-Script?
Quoting Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:31:40 -0600, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hmm... If you take Latin as an example, it could already happen: u and i
> > in Latin have both consonantal and vocalic values (so something like
> > /wuwuwu/ would write |uuuuuu|), and indeed numeric ones as well
> > (|iiiiiiiii| could represent "9", though in that case |ix| would be
> > likelier).
>
> Add to that, of course (though I don't recall the typography in the CS --
> every time I try to remember it, I get flashes of Voynich, which while
> entertaining is not helpful), the case of words like "minimum", which in
> the right medieval hand were basically a sequence of vertical strokes (in
> the case of "minimum", 15). Something somewhat equivalent to that might be
> going on.
In my mother's handwriting, "minimum" is 15 connected vertical strokes with two
dots above.
Andreas
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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:20:43 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Novel ConGrammar
Quoting Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > indefinate future (farther than one can think)
> > definate future (fore-sight & planning)
>
> I fail to see how the future can ever be definite. Foresight & planning
> can do much to increase the likelihood of a situation - but it can never
> be definite.
Sounds like the tense for oracular utterances. Or for performatives relating to
the future ("hereby I declare that you will be Mayor of Junkville from the 23rd
of October!").
Andreas
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:41:08 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's "hidden" conlang
Quoting Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> http://books.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n6/n32941.htm?authorid=8101
> http://www.bowjamesbow.net/2004/01/12-were_back.shtml
> "Unfortunately, Ms. Wrightson is not well known in North America. I was very
> fortunate to come upon her book, The Nargun and the Stars (published in
> 1973),
> in a used bookstore in Halifax. In this book, orphaned Simon Brent is sent to
> live with an "aunt" and "uncle" (actually, second cousins to his mother) in a
> ranch called Wongadilla, at the foot of a mountain. Exploring the place,
> Simon
> discovers a swamp and a forest, and ancient, playful creatures that lived
> before
> the aboriginies came. But he also discovers the Nargun, an ancient, dangerous
> creature of stone, whose slow progress across the mountain has it on a
> collision
> course with the ranch."
>
> I think the translator changed it. Perhaps the translator was a fan of
> Tolkien?
Well, if the 'u' is meant to be read as [u] or [U], changing it to 'o' could be
a bow to Swedish orthography. Tough luck, tho - I spontaneously read it as
[nar\`'go:n]. The "tale-rock" interpretation would force ['nargOn].
_Nargun_ could be taken as Sindarin for "Tale-Prince". Perhaps better Noldorin;
I'm not aware that _cund_ "prince" is attested for the LotR period or later
(RWTL).
Andreas
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