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There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Kinship terms and discussion
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Kinship terms and discussion
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: J Y S Czhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Hobbits spoke ?
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: John Quijada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:14:02 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
My favorite taxonomic name is that of the hoopoe, a rather
fascintaing bird of Eurasia: Upupa epops. These are the Latin and
Greek names for the bird respectively. Obviously they are
onomatopoetic words. Pokorny gave a PIE root for the name: epop or
opop. Onomatopoetic back then, too.
The German is Wiedehopf. I know "Wiede" as willow twig. There is a
German noun "Hopf" which means "hop," as in beer. I doubt that's the
meaning in Wiedehopf. I wonder if "-hopf" is the German
onomatopoetic
version.
There are three Spanish words: abubilla, puput, upupa. The French is
huppe. The Italian is upupa.
Sorry for the digression!
Charlie
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:27:59 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Quoting Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
>
> > > > Well, if the local legends are true, they had their own, 'murmuring'
> > > > language. How likely that is, I don't know.
>
> > > This is a fascinating and remarkable find, if true. There must have been
> > > some contact, somewhere along the way, with Papuan/Australian peoples
>
> > > the millennia. In that case, their language would have been Papuanoid
> or
> > > Australoid.
> >
> > They're supposedly erectids, so they presumably had spent the better part
> of
> > forever in Indonesia when the ancestors of the Papuans and Australians
> came
> > there.
>
> hm...so, the Austronesian languages could have borrowed from them?
>
> :)
There does not seem to be any reason to totally exclude that possibility.
Andreas
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:10:56 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kinship terms and discussion
On Friday 29 October 2004 00:29, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Proto-Drem
doctrellor from the ZBB? Nice to have you aboard. Did you
join recently? It's just because I haven't seen that email
address as a username nor "Kevin Urbanczyk" here before.
> Rroops Mothers brother
> ầd Fathers sister
> Źţ Brother, Sister and any (male or female)
> parallel cousins Bu g Mothers brothers children
> Gấl Fathers sisters children
> Kluob Your children or brothers children
> Ţld your sisters children
Drem is full of Unicode stuff. Listserv accepts UTF-7 AFAIK,
UTF-8 sometimes gets messed up because it is wrongly
converted to UTF-7 which the listserv software seemingly
favours.
Carsten (guitarplayer)
--
Eri silvev ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:09:34 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: /T/ -> /t_d/?
Hello!
I have got two maybe a little stupid questions.
My first question is whether ...
(A) it would be likely that /T/ changes into /t_d/?
My naming language Ambrian has /T/ and /t/, but Ayeri has
only got /t_d/. Nevertheless I think /t_d/ can develop
easily to a fricative. So would it be ...
(B) sensible at all to have a sound change if the language
at least in some dialects accepts /T/ (the ones near to
the area where Ambrian is/was spoken? I guess /T/ would
change to /s/ in conservative dialects, just like many
Germans do because they're ashamed to pronounce /T/.
Thanks,
Carsten
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:04:30 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 05:09:34PM +0200, Carsten Becker wrote:
> I guess /T/ would change to /s/ in conservative dialects, just like
> many Germans do because they're ashamed to pronounce /T/.
First, you seem to be using phonemic delimiters /.../ where you mean
phonetic [...]. But mostly I want to know why a German would be
"ashamed" to pronounce [T]. What's shameful about it?
-Marcos
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:01:12 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:04:30 -0400, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>First, you seem to be using phonemic delimiters /.../ where you mean
>phonetic [...].
No, those /.../ were thought for allophones. So /T/ = [T, D] in my case!
>But mostly I want to know why a German would be
>"ashamed" to pronounce [T]. What's shameful about it?
Maybe they're ashamed to mispronounce it, maybe it's due to the teacher not
insisting on the correct pronounciation of words, I don't know.
C.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:52 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
Carsten Becker wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:04:30 -0400, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>First, you seem to be using phonemic delimiters /.../ where you mean
>>phonetic [...].
>>
>>
>
>No, those /.../ were thought for allophones. So /T/ = [T, D] in my case!
>
>
>
Actually, there is at least one minimal pair, so they're not Allophones.
'Thistle' vs. 'this'll' [TIsl=], [DIsl=]
also, in some dialects:
[tiT] vs. [tiD] 'teeth' vs 'teethe'
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:18:06 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kinship terms and discussion
On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 05:10:56PM +0200, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Drem is full of Unicode stuff. Listserv accepts UTF-7 AFAIK,
> UTF-8 sometimes gets messed up because it is wrongly
> converted to UTF-7 which the listserv software seemingly
> favours.
That's not quite right. The listserv messes up certain bytes outside of
the US-ASCII range, which bytes do occur in the UTF-8 encoding of
various characters. UTF-7 uses only bytes in the US-ASCII range, so if
you can convince your mail program to use it, then your message will
pass through unscathed - although it will only be legible to those whose
mail program understands UTF-7 (fortunately, more understand it than
provide for generating it).
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:10:00 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
>
>There does not seem to be any reason to totally exclude that possibility.
>
>
Except that the Austronesian languages seem to have originated from
Taiwan...
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:05:04 -0400
From: J Y S Czhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
In a message dated 10/29/2004 1:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joe <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> writes:
>Andreas Johansson wrote:
>>
>>There does not seem to be any reason to totally exclude that possibility.
>>
>Except that the Austronesian languages seem to have originated from
>Taiwan...
Intriguing. Gives some credence to the Malayo-Polynesian-Tai Hypothesis to some degree
AFAIK.
Z.
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:13:45 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 06:16:52PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> [tiT] vs. [tiD] 'teeth' vs 'teethe'
That's [tiT] vs [ti:D], usually, although the [:] isn't a phonemic distinction
but rather a side-effect of the following voiced consonant.
The same distinction ([T]=noun vs [D]=verb) appears in my 'lect in
"birth", despite the lack of a spelling difference there. That is,
I would have a [D] for the |th| in the GWtW line
"I don' know nuthin' 'bout birthin' no babies."
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:15:14 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
J Y S Czhang wrote:
>In a message dated 10/29/2004 1:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joe <[EMAIL
>PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>
>>Andreas Johansson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There does not seem to be any reason to totally exclude that possibility.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Except that the Austronesian languages seem to have originated from
>>Taiwan...
>>
>>
>
>Intriguing. Gives some credence to the Malayo-Polynesian-Tai Hypothesis to some
>degree AFAIK.
>
>
Erm..Taiwan, not Thailand.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:26:33 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:52 +0100, Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
([T] vs [D] in English)
> Actually, there is at least one minimal pair, so they're not Allophones.
>
> 'Thistle' vs. 'this'll' [TIsl=], [DIsl=]
And monomorphemically: "thigh" vs "thy".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:41:55 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Joe wrote:
> J Y S Czhang wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 10/29/2004 1:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joe
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> >>Andreas Johansson wrote:
> >>
> >>>There does not seem to be any reason to totally exclude that
> >>>possibility.
> >>>
> >>Except that the Austronesian languages seem to have originated from
> >>Taiwan...
> >>
And are reconstructed only back to ~5000 B.C.E...
> >
> >Intriguing. Gives some credence to the Malayo-Polynesian-Tai Hypothesis
> >to some degree AFAIK.
> >
> Erm..Taiwan, not Thailand.
No, there is indeed an AN+Thai hypothesis, most recently/convincingly
proposed by Paul Benedict back in the 1940s or 50s; it's still
controversial. Also an AN+Austroasiatic (which may or may not include
Thai), and even attempts to find an AN + Sino-Tibetan relation-- on the
assumption that ANs came to Taiwan from somewhere on the mainland.
>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:36:55 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
Carsten Becker wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I have got two maybe a little stupid questions.
>
> My first question is whether ...
>
> (A) it would be likely that /T/ changes into /t_d/?
It happened in the mainland Scandinavian languages,
cf. Eng. _thing_, Ger. _Ding_ Sw. _ting_.
> My naming language Ambrian has /T/ and /t/, but Ayeri has
> only got /t_d/. Nevertheless I think /t_d/ can develop
> easily to a fricative. So would it be ...
>
> (B) sensible at all to have a sound change if the language
> at least in some dialects accepts /T/ (the ones near to
> the area where Ambrian is/was spoken? I guess /T/ would
> change to /s/ in conservative dialects, just like many
> Germans do because they're ashamed to pronounce /T/.
I don't know about shame, but there are instances of
*[T] > [s] in Middle Persian, although you also get
*[T] > [h] in some cases, as well as *[s] > [h] in
most cases. Ergo you get cases of *[T] > [h] spelled
|s|.
> Thanks,
> Carsten
>
> --
> Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
> Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
> -> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
>
>
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:15:34 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke ?
>ahh, the old hyloid bone debate. :)
The name of that old bone is hyoid, not hyloid.
>besides, "tarzan" isn't monosyllabic. :)
That may depend on how one understands "monosyllabic." Some
polysyllabic words are composed of two (or more) free form
monosyllabic morphemes. E.g., "oilcloth" is composed of two such
morphemes. "Tarzan" is a similar word, a compound of "tar," white,
and "zan," skin. That is how Mr. Burroughs defined it, if memory
serves. I guess it would depend on how much of a hiatus there was
between the two parts of the word when spoken.
Charlie
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:11:59 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /T/ -> /t_d/?
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:26:33 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:52 +0100, Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Actually, there is at least one minimal pair, so they're not Allophones.
>>
>> 'Thistle' vs. 'this'll' [TIsl=], [DIsl=]
>
> And monomorphemically: "thigh" vs "thy".
The monomorphy of "thy" is disputable, though. Certainly there are no
_productive_ morphemes, but it's the same possessive -y added to "my"
and the same second-person "th" in "thou" and "thine".
[It's a bit pedantic maybe, but the rule usually given by people who want
to say that /D/ is not a phoneme is that it seems to occur instead of /T/
at certain morpheme boundaries.)
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:42:26 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
Hi!
caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> I must not be understanding the IPA-xsampa chart. It looks to me
> like /&/ represents a rounded vowel, the IPA being the digraph OE.
You're absolutely right. On this list, however, many people use the
Conlang variant of X-Sampa, or CXS for short. So when reading posts,
you usually expect CXS, but then still have to guess whether it is
real X-Sampa. :-)
If you like, take a look at my web-page with a comparison of IPA,
X-Sampa and CXS:
http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
**Henrik
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:35:42 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
Here's a case of two plants where one has a common name, and the
other, which is totally different has its genus name the same as the
first's common name:
Lotus
The plants known as "Lotus" commonly are two types of water lily in
two different genuses: Nymphaea caerulea (The Egyptian Blue Lotus),
and Nelumbo nucifera (The Sacred Lotus). However, the plant genus
called Lotus is in the pea family, and Lotus scoparius is a California
native species called "Deer Weed". L. scoparius is a pioneer species
and sets the stage for rehabilitation of disturbed chaparral areas.
When botanists talk of "lotus" it often confuses your average person
when they point to the dry, hot ground and mean Lotus scoparius rather
than Nelumbo nucifera.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:03:10 -0400
From: John Quijada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
B. Garcia wrote:
>Oh and here's a small list of amusing taxonomic names...:
>Chaos chaos (Linnaeus), 1758 (a protozoan)
...
___________________________________________________
I've actually seen Chaos chaos before; it is the largest protozoan in
existence, a huge amoeba that grows up to 5000 microns (half a millimeter)
in length and is visible to the naked eye. They love to hang out on the
underside of lillypads and look like a tiny spec of clear jelly. Under the
microscope they are the BLOB incarnate, eating up any other protozoan in
their path! Chaos chaos goes by several other names as well, including
Chaos carolinensis, Pelomyxa carolinensis, and Amoeba carolinensis.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:00:14 -0400
From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8d)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Rejected posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Subject: These will help you please your partner again in the bedroom! A485
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:28:30 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
B. Garcia scripsit:
> Here's a case of two plants where one has a common name, and the
> other, which is totally different has its genus name the same as the
> first's common name:
Similarly, nasturtiums belong not to Nasturtium (which is watercress),
but to Tropaeolum, as JRRT pointed out in a letter.
("Constrictor constrictor". Pfui.)
--
What asininity could I have uttered John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
that they applaud me thus? http://www.reutershealth.com
--Phocion, Greek orator http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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