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There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. USAGE: rhotics (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Fwd: Lateral Plosive
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: The Conversive
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: langmaker site link not found
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Tatari Faran: volition, verb complements, phonology update, and more
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: The Conversive
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: samhain?
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: samhain?
From: Kit La Touche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. AE: Reloaded + Babel
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: samhain?
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: The Conversive
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: samhain?
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: samhain?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:33:55 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
Ray Brown scripsit:
> Quite so - and it some contexts, in fact, it is quite useful to
> distinguish between _us_ and _US_ ;)
"By common consent, [the mixed British-American unit developing Ground
Controlled Approach in England during WWII] had quietly dropped the
standard RAF abbreviation U/S for 'unserviceable' -- it took too much
explaining, and even when explained was likely to hurt sensitive American
feelings."
--Arthur C. Clarke, _Glide Path_
> Yes - proposed reforms of English spelling are legion. Rather like
> auxlangs, the supply far exceeds the demand.
Alas. And when there is so obviously One Right Way, too.
--
And through this revolting graveyard of the universe the muffled, maddening
beating of drums, and thin, monotonous whine of blasphemous flutes from
inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time; the detestable pounding
and piping whereunto dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic
tenebrous ultimate gods -- the blind, voiceless, mindless gargoyles whose soul
is Nyarlathotep. (Lovecraft) John Cowan|[EMAIL PROTECTED]|ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:47:28 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: USAGE: rhotics (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:54:06 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:24:13 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>In pronouncing German, I try my
>>best to produce the back-trilled "r." I can't do it, it comes out
>>sounding like a French "r," but I respect it and the uvular acrobatics of
>>its natives.
>
>German "r" is definitely NOT trilled. It's the voiced uvular fricative.
The only definite assertion about the pronunciation of German /r/ is that
there's a lot of variation (and I'm talking about standard German, not about
the dialects). Some varieties have [r] (which is also recommended in the
prescriptive tradition) but most have nowadays either [R\] or [R].
Independent from that, there's a variation analogous to the one between the
rhotic and non-rhotic dialects in English: Most varieties of standard German
vowelize the /r/ after long vowels or schwa, and many vowelize it after
short vowels as well.
>I'm not that good at French, but afaik, it's prectically the same there.
I thought that a real trill [R\] is most common. In Parisian speech (and
other), /r/ is devoiced in weak syllables after voiceless consonants, so
that e.g. |mettre| turns out as [mEtX]. There are no r-dropping dialects at
all, if I'm not wrong.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:04:14 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Lateral Plosive
On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 09:27:28AM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> Judging by Okrand's remarks (and the spelling itself), Klingon "tlh"
> is an *aspirated* dental affricate with lateral plosion, [tK)_h].
Well, OK, but all plosives are aspirated in Klingon, so such aspiration
is probably not phonemic. I have trouble pronouncing [tK)} without
aspiration, personally, but if you did so you'd just sound like a wimpy
Terran. :)
-Marcos
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:57:39 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Conversive
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Cessative:
>walk, stop walking
>like, stop liking
>eat, stop eating
>and on and on.
>Be- can be applied to any verb in Teonaht.
>Conversive:
>close, unclose
>fasten, unfasten
>love, unlove (there we have a sense of the cessative)
>do, undo
>create, uncreate (destroy your creation)
>but:
>read, unread?
>think, unthink?
>believe, unbelieve?
>see, unsee
>Meanwhile, to get back to your question:
>There are certain verbs, it seems, that can have no conversive, such
>as "eat." How do you uneat? "vomit"? Teonaht already has a word
>for that, but I can see a bulimic using the expression
>euphemistically.
>How do you unread something? Untouch? What properties would verbs
>have to have to be bad candidates for the conversive?
>Sally
I'm glad you clarified in a second message. The conversive has
nothing to do with ceasing the action. In Swahili, likewise, there
are many verbs that won't admit of the concept.
In some instances English un- is equivalent to dis-, but I don't
think in all. Unarm = disarm, unrobe = disrobe. Dis- is often
prefixed to a bound morpheme which makes comparison difficult:
distress, distend, disdain, etc.
What is also interesting is the English past participle with un- when
the verb denotes a concept that can't be reversed. Unaccompanied,
but one can't unaccompany someone. Uncounted, but one can't uncount
something. Etc.
Addendum: The -ua suffix in Swahili in some cases intensifies, rather
than "converses." Kama, squeeze; kamua, squeeze out. Songa = press;
songoa = wring.
µ in the Senyecan orthography represents the unvoiced bilabial nasal,
an unvoiced "m."
Charlie
Charlie
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:09:05 -0500
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: langmaker site link not found
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:00:56 +0200, Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>http://www.langmaker.com/db/rsc_audienceuglossiaandco.htm
>http://www.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.html
It's at:
http://journal.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.php
I'll update the link.
The best way to reach me is by e-mail directly or through my web site's
contact page. I just skim the messages here -- I don't read every one.
- Jeffrey
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:54:23 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tatari Faran: volition, verb complements, phonology update, and more
----- Original Message -----
From: H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: Tatari Faran: volition, verb complements, phonology update, and
more
> On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 05:14:01AM +0200, Rodlox wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [...]
> Fara. Or maybe "smell" is good enough for both purposes; they don't
> have a pressing need to distinguish between them anyway.
okay; just wondering.
> [...]
> > > [Sidenote: I don't know whether to translate _simani_ as 'dog' or
> > > 'wolf', as the inhabitants of Fara keep them as pets. They are
> > > ferocious enough to be called wolves in the common sense, but they are
> > > also domesticated somewhat.]
> >
> > oh...like dingos. :)
>
> Perhaps. :-) But these wolves are quite a bit larger than dingos, and
> a lot more ferocious (hence their use as guards).
well...something that exists on the borderline between feral / domestic /
wild.
okay, that would probably be more of a point than a line...but... :)
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:47:28 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Translating the Babel Text
BEWARE: May contain traces of nuts (and Ayeri Babel Text)!
Hey!
On Monday 01 November 2004 07:30, B. Garcia wrote:
> [...] However, this
> idea of a supreme god, with a lower but still ever
> present god helped make a transition into Christianity
> easy for Filipinos, supposedly (and possibly for Muslim
> converts in the south as well). I've read that the
> Spanish were surprised that the native culture had words
> to express all the important Christian terminology and
> they had little need for explanation.
Interesting. If I'll ever get the hang of actually doing
conculturing with conreligion etc.? ATM, I only have basic
ideas in the back of my head, not very worked out. I don't
get the hang to write them down -- I don't know how or
rather don't want to know how to write things down. I know
I could write things as a story, but names and places are
still missing, or I could write things like kind of an
anthropologic report viewed from my own perspective, so
early 21st century Western world/European. But here, also
names and places are missing. I'm currently working on a
naming language to get names from finally.
> As to the problem of translating the clay brick issue, i
> think the text explains pretty much what they are. Do the
> Ayeri not have pottery? If so, they'd understand that
> burning bricks makes them hard. You'd have to maybe add
> in that they'd be used as stone blocks are used.
I don't know why they should not know pottery. OK, you all
conivinced me to translate "bricks" as "bricks"! Otherwise,
things could be annotated as they use to be in the Bible
anyway. Now I'll only have to make up a ton of words,
though I could give you an interlinear already, with mostly
English words, though.
So I'm going nuts (see beginning) and translate this for
you. Be warned, I haven't got the NIV at hand. It's
upstairs and I'm too lazy to fetch it from my parents'
office :P ... So "Gute Nachricht" (Deutsche
Bibelgesellschaft 1997) must suffice for the moment. Same
contents, I'm only translating from German instead of from
English.
You have been warned!
I'm trying to do at least a couple of verses now. The used
abbreviations (sticking mostly to Leipzig Rules):
* - not approved
^V - iyV(t/n), for ability to use "variable" vowels
A - agent
DEF - definite article
GEN - genitive
INC - inclusive
EXC - exclusive
MOT - motion (Ayeri's only true adposition, "motion")
TRG - trigger
P - Patient
pl - plural
RP - remote past
sg - singular
DEF Book Moses.GEN 11:1-9 -- Tay Coya Moséng B:1-9
========================== =====================
1) every=People.A TRG:P RP.have.3pl^a <RP>.time language.TRG
P.same and RP.use.3pl^a word.pl.TRG P.same
<People>enang sira vatahiyàn tavala naranoin a<same> nay
va<use>iyàn <word>iein a<same>ye.
2) temporal-when [1] MOT.come east.LOC TRG:A RP.set=off.
(3pl^a.TRG), RP.come.3pl^a [2a] MOT inside=of
Shinar=land.LOC and there RP.settle/dwell.3pl^a [2b]
<when> mangasaha <east>ea ang va<set-off>iyàtin,
vasahaiyàn manga cong Sinarsimilea nay adaea mitaniyàn.
And now for something more hairy:
3) TRG:A RP.speak.(3sg^a.TRG) each=other.P, "MOT.go
work.LOC! [3] TRG:P <<Let's>> [4] make.(1pl.INC.A)
brick.pl.TRG made=of clay.?GEN [5] and burn.1pl.INC [2c]
3sg^e.P!" TRG:P want RP.use.3pl^a.A brick.pl.P
like.brick.pl.TRG [6] and asphalt.PAT like.mortar.PAT.
Ang vanaraiyàtin sitanyáris, "Mangasara <work>ea! Ang
<let's> *atiaynang <brick>iein <made-of> *<clay>ena nay
<burn>ayn iyèaris!" Aris <want> va<use>iyàtang
<brick>iearis *cu<brick>iein nay <asphalt>aris
*cu<mortar>aris.
I surrender for now. It's quite exhausting and took me about
an hour to type up this interlinear and the translation!
[1] Als sie _nun_ von Osten aufbrachen, ... -- "nun" is a
filling word and would not be translated in this style
in English, I have not thought about filling words in
any of my conlangs yet. Translating "nun" here would
give, "Now, when they set off from the east, ..."
[2] (a/b) I'm not sure if I should keep the case article
(TRG:A) and the trigger marker in this case. It's
already clear, that the sentence is about the _people_
and that they're agents. So for the sake of
narrativeness, I'd keep it I think, but for the sake of
smoothness I'd leave it out. I must think about that.
(c) s.a., grammatical role etc. is already clear here.
[3] lit. "to (the) work!" -- lit. from German, "Ans Werk!"
-- maybe "Let's go to work" would suit better?
[4] Don't ask me how to translate "let's" -- in German the
passage reads, "Wir machen Ziegel aus Lehm ..." (lit.
"We're making bricks of clay ..."). Maybe "Come and..!"?
[5] "To be made of/from sth" -- compound expression or verb
made from the compound ran together and eroded a bit?
[6] "Sie wollten die Ziegel als Bausteine verwenden [...]"
-- English has (I think) only "bricks" for "Ziegel" and
"Baustein" ("building element", lit. "builidng stone")
here. I *must* look that up and find a solution!
Translating is a hard business as you can see! Especially
when the conlang still lacks idioms, expressions and lots
of words anyway.
Carsten
HAPPY VOTING, AMERICANS!!!
--
I spare you the usual quote. Enough Conlanging for today! :P
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:00:58 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Conversive
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:26:01 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>While reviewing some Swahili grammar the other day, I came across an
>aspect of the verb called the conversive. The suffix -ua is added to
>the verb to "undo" the action of the verb, e.g., funga, fasten;
>fungua, unfasten.
>
>Have any of you encountered this in your study of languages? Have
>any of you used it in your conlang?
Yes. In Ayeri, there's -(ar)ya. I'd like to give you a link, but this part
of the grammar is nonsense ATM and has to be rewritten, too. Sorry I say
this again and again, but I haven't got the time to rework the grammar at
the moment. Maybe I'm going to do that in Christmas holidays.
Carsten
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:25:23 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
Thomas Leigh scripsit:
> "Imbolc" is not a modern Gaelic name; [...] I have never seen this
> name in either modern SG or IG; does anybody know what it's supposed
> to mean?
Wikipedia claims that it's < _i mbolg_ 'out of the belly' and refers
in some way to pregnant ewes. An alternative name is Oimelc, which is at
least good OG for 'sheep's milk'.
In any case, it's Candlemas = St. Brigid's day = Groundhog Day = 1 February.
This is a subject thoroughly imbued with "the fabulous Celtic
twilight [...] not so much of the gods as of the reason": the
most sensible article I've found (out of many bad ones) is at
http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/7/torma.html
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan
I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them
alive again from the water. I came from the end of a bag, but no bag
went over me. I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am
Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider. --Bilbo to Smaug
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:00:24 -0500
From: Kit La Touche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
this would also explain why it's pronouced, in english, as [Imolk] rather
than [Imbolk] (not strictly accurate transcriptions, there). that is,
gaelic *i mbolg* would be pronouced without the b - the presence of the b
is an orthographic convention to show that the m is a nasal mutation of a b.
an alternative view, one that i don't hold, is that it's coming "out of the
belly of winter" or some such.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, John Cowan wrote:
> Wikipedia claims that it's < _i mbolg_ 'out of the belly' and refers
> in some way to pregnant ewes. An alternative name is Oimelc, which is at
> least good OG for 'sheep's milk'.
>
> In any case, it's Candlemas = St. Brigid's day = Groundhog Day = 1 February.
>
> This is a subject thoroughly imbued with "the fabulous Celtic
> twilight [...] not so much of the gods as of the reason": the
> most sensible article I've found (out of many bad ones) is at
> http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/7/torma.html
>
> --
> John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan
> I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them
> alive again from the water. I came from the end of a bag, but no bag
> went over me. I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am
> Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider. --Bilbo to Smaug
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:59:11 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:13:08 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I
> don't know where the "Negritos" of the Philippines fit in; the name suggests
> they might also show pre-AN "Papuan" traits.
>From what i've read, they probably share ancestry with the Papuan
peoples. However, all groups have lost whatever original languages
they spoke and now speak AN languages instead. Though, I wonder if
there may be words from their earlier languages in their specific
languages.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:16:44 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:35:17 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>You misunderstand me, Pascal. I said "BACK trilled." The vibration of the
>uvula against the back of the tongue (what we call in America a gutteral or
>back trill--sounds a little bit like imitating the growling of a dog), which
>is practiced by many Germans in pronouncing some "r"s, especially notable in
>conjunction with back vowels--Friedrich Wilhelm Emil RRRRRoth!--and
>decidedly different from the French uvular "scrape," which I'm better at.
>I've heard my native German teacher pronounce it--gerrrrradeaus!--I've heard
>my native German friends pronounce it and poke fun at my attempts at it, and
>I've had other Germans tell me that the French "r" is just fine, don't be
>too hard on myself. It's a SPLENDID sound, and expressed, I believe, by the
>IPA graph [R\], or so I've been told. I can only produce it under certain
>salivary conditions. ;-)
I know that sound you mean, the [R\] sound. It's a quite old-fashioned
pronunciation that is practically only used by the older generation. In
today's pronunciation, it is definitive NOT like that anymore, but rather is
the voiced uvular fricative [R]. There's a good chance some less sensitive
natures would make fun of you if you used that old-fashioned pronunciation -
just like you should always make sure to pronounce "sp" and "st" at the
beginning of a word like "shp" and "sht", respectively.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:25:16 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: AE: Reloaded + Babel
I've done a few changes now, like e.g. abandoning the umlauts (changing "ä"
to "ae" and "ö" to "ir"), and changing the th to t/d as Sally suggested. The
site is still the same:
http://www.choton.org/ae/
So you can see the extent of the changes, here's the new Babel text:
1 Nau de houl wirld haed wan laengwidg wid de saim wirds.
2 Dgirniing ihstwards, men faund ae plain in Shinar aend seteled der.
3 Dai said tu wan aenaser: "Kam! Let's maik brik aend birn it tarouli!" Dai
used brik insted of stoun aend tar insted of mortar.
4 Den dai said: "Kam! Let's bild ae siti for us wid ae tauer up tu de skei,
tu maik ae naim for us, so daet wi ar nat skaeterd ouwer se houl irs!"
5 Bat HaShem kaim daun tu sih de siti aend de tauer men wer bilding.
6 HaShem said: "If aes wan pihpel wid wan laengwidg dai haew bigan duing
dis, nating dai plaen tu du wil bi impasibel for dem.
7 Kam! Let's gou daun aend konfjuhs der laengwidg, so daet dai wil nat
understaend ihtsh oder."
8 So HaShem skaeterd dem ouwer se houl irs, aend dai stoped bilding se siti.
9 Derfor de siti was naimed Babel, bikohs der HaShem konfjuhsd de laengwidg
of de houl wirld; fram der HaShem skaeterd dem ouwer de houl irs.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:54:06 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
>On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:35:17 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>You misunderstand me, Pascal. I said "BACK trilled." The vibration of
>>the uvula against the back of the tongue (what we call in America a
>>gutteral or back trill--sounds a little bit like imitating the growling of
>>a dog), which is practiced by many Germans in pronouncing some "r"s,
>>especially notable in conjunction with back vowels--Friedrich Wilhelm Emil
>>RRRRRoth!--and decidedly different from the French uvular "scrape," which
>>I'm better at. I've heard my native German teacher pronounce
>>it--gerrrrradeaus!--I've heard my native German friends pronounce it and
>>poke fun at my attempts at it, and I've had other Germans tell me that the
>>French "r" is just fine, don't be too hard on myself. It's a SPLENDID
>>sound, and expressed, I believe, by the IPA graph [R\], or so I've been
>>told. I can only produce it under certain salivary conditions. ;-)
The French uvular "scrape"? Would this be a fricative [R], as opposed to a
German trill [R\]? I don't know much about the variation of French voiced /r/.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:16:44 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> answered:
>I know that sound you mean, the [R\] sound. It's a quite old-fashioned
>pronunciation that is practically only used by the older generation. In
>today's pronunciation, it is definitive NOT like that anymore, but rather
>is the voiced uvular fricative [R].
There is no single uniform pronunciation of standard German, and the
pronunciations vary in the realization of /r/. As I've already written, many
varieties have [R] for the "rhotic" /r/, but other varieties have [R\] or
[r]. If you want to make assertions about the pronunciation of standard
German, you need to specify which variety of standard German you're
referring to. At least, you should say something like "in my region", just
as people on this list do in the YAEPTs.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:37:13 -0000
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
John Cowan on Imbolc:
> In any case, it's Candlemas = St. Brigid's day = Groundhog Day = 1
February.
Not 2nd Feb (which is also James Joyce's birthday so a day to be
honoured by you)?
--And.
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:41:56 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Conversive
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:57:39 +0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is also interesting is the English past participle with un- when
> the verb denotes a concept that can't be reversed. Unaccompanied,
> but one can't unaccompany someone. Uncounted, but one can't uncount
> something. Etc.
They're cases like un(counted), though, not like (uncount)ed. The "ed" is
doing something like deriving an adjective from a verb, and is not really
deriving a tense, except insomuchas the form *looks* like a past form,
physically. The "un" is then added, to mean something like "lack of". The
"un-x-ed" forms can be used in non-past tenses, quite freely.
Paul
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:52:57 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
And Rosta scripsit:
> John Cowan on Imbolc:
> > In any case, it's Candlemas = St. Brigid's day = Groundhog Day = 1
> February.
>
> Not 2nd Feb (which is also James Joyce's birthday so a day to be
> honoured by you)?
Sorry, yes. Wiccans use the Jewish style, where holidays start the
night before; Christians and groundhogs use the astronomical day
that begins at midnight. So whether you call it 1 or 2 Feb is up to you.
--
[W]hen I wrote it I was more than a little John Cowan
febrile with foodpoisoning from an antique carrot [EMAIL PROTECTED]
that I foolishly ate out of an illjudged faith www.ccil.org/~cowan
in the benignancy of vegetables. --And Rosta www.reutershealth.com
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:06:04 -0500
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
John Cowan wrote:
>
> Ray Brown scripsit:
>
> > Yes - proposed reforms of English spelling are legion. Rather like
> > auxlangs, the supply far exceeds the demand.
>
> Alas. And when there is so obviously One Right Way, too.
The Shaw Alphabet? :-)
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:13:24 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 08:52:57PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> And Rosta scripsit:
> > John Cowan on Imbolc:
> > > In any case, it's Candlemas = St. Brigid's day = Groundhog Day = 1
> > February.
> >
> > Not 2nd Feb (which is also James Joyce's birthday so a day to be
> > honoured by you)?
>
> Sorry, yes. Wiccans use the Jewish style, where holidays start the
> night before; Christians and groundhogs use the astronomical day
> that begins at midnight. So whether you call it 1 or 2 Feb is up to you.
Well, not really. The holiday is 2 Feb, but whether 2 Feb begins at
sundown or midnight is up to you. :)
-Marcos
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:04:51 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:35:17 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >wrote:
>
> The French uvular "scrape"? Would this be a fricative [R], as opposed to a
> German trill [R\]? I don't know much about the variation of French voiced
> /r/.
Yes, exactly. As for its variations, I think someone already came on line
with that one.
> On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:16:44 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> answered:
>
>>I know that sound you mean, the [R\] sound. It's a quite old-fashioned
>>pronunciation that is practically only used by the older generation.
I AM older generation.
> >In
>>today's pronunciation, it is definitive NOT like that anymore, but rather
>>is the voiced uvular fricative [R].
[snip]
> There's a good chance some less sensitive
> natures would make fun of you if you used that old-fashioned
> pronunciation -
> just like you should always make sure to pronounce "sp" and "st" at the
> beginning of a word like "shp" and "sht", respectively.
I don't care if anybody makes fun of me when I'm pronouncing a legitimate
sound in German. And thanks, but I learned all about st/sp in my first year
courses decades ago, one of the EASIER pronunciation rules. Besides, that
has nothing to do with /r/R/R\., which is what we're discussing.
j. 'mach' wust wrote:
>
> There is no single uniform pronunciation of standard German, and the
> pronunciations vary in the realization of /r/. As I've already written,
> many
> varieties have [R] for the "rhotic" /r/, but other varieties have [R\] or
> [r]. If you want to make assertions about the pronunciation of standard
> German, you need to specify which variety of standard German you're
> referring to. At least, you should say something like "in my region", just
> as people on this list do in the YAEPTs.
That's good to know, j. 'mach' wust. My relatives on my father's side are
Swabian, and they live mostly in communities near Stuttgart. I have never
visited them, alas, even when I was in Switzerland. No time or money. So
what would my pronunciation of /r/ be for that region? I might pay a visit,
since I'm also interested in the Zwiefalten MS that is housed in the library
there.
Sally
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