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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Person distinctions in languages?
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Universals list?
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. domain names
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: domain names
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Universals list?
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: domain names
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: domain names
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. tool-words
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: USAGE: Y'all [was Re: varia]
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Cian Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: tool-words
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: tool-words
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: tool-words
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. determiners
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Matein Einlich - Revision
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Matein Einlich - Phonetic Changes
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Matein Einlich - Babel text
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Matein Einlich - The North Wind And The Sun
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Proverbs
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Voynich Manuscript book
From: Thomas Leigh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. some Bukisi
From: Matt Arriola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. geemblik
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. OT: Re: domain names
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Weekly Vocab 1 and 2 in Ayeri
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:04:20 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Person distinctions in languages?
--- Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > > Hi, or rather, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL
> > > PROTECTED]<]
> or
> > > however J. 'Mach' Wust decided it was really
> > > pronounced.
> >
> > I think this represents a Swiss variety only :).
>
> Yeah. I'd _love_ to see how *k evolved into [!\].
> Does
> edelweiss have psychotropic properties :)?
>
>
I have the strange feeling he was being sarcastic.
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:19:45 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Universals list?
Sai Emrys wrote:
> I've seen the Greenberg list.
>
> But AFAIK, it's considered outdated and methodologically unsound
> 'cause of the small sample size. I know there have been studies on
> this since then, but I don't know of any equally convenient form of
> them - i.e. some sort of list of tendencies / implications / etc.
>
> Anyone know of such a thing?
>
Try this: http://ling.uni-konstanz.de/pages/proj/sprachbau.htm
More "universals ~tendencies" than you want to know about......:-))))
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:30:32 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: domain names
I was searching yahoo the other night for free domain names (or relatively
cheap ones). I just noticed that Sai Emrys has "saizai.com".
Any recommendations? onesite.com looked promising, but I'm not sure what's
involved. And of course at my age there's the question, what happens to a
domain if one (gasp) dies...? Bear in mind that I'm the original computer
dummy-- do I really need a domain?????? Would I want to be a .com, .org,
net or what??? (The main consideration is, that if I put up legit
Austronesian stuff, I'd like to keep it separate from my conlang website on
Tripod.)
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:39:51 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: domain names
I use www.geocities.com to host my domain fiziwig.com.
It's cheap and I've had no problems with it.
--gary
--- Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was searching yahoo the other night for free
> domain names (or relatively
> cheap ones). I just noticed that Sai Emrys has
> "saizai.com".
>
> Any recommendations? onesite.com looked promising,
> but I'm not sure what's
> involved. And of course at my age there's the
> question, what happens to a
> domain if one (gasp) dies...? Bear in mind that I'm
> the original computer
> dummy-- do I really need a domain?????? Would I want
> to be a .com, .org,
> net or what??? (The main consideration is, that if I
> put up legit
> Austronesian stuff, I'd like to keep it separate
> from my conlang website on
> Tripod.)
>
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:53:22 -0600
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Universals list?
Sai wrote:
> I've seen the Greenberg list.
>
> But AFAIK, it's considered outdated and methodologically unsound
> 'cause of the small sample size. I know there have been studies
> on this since then, but I don't know of any equally convenient
> form of them - i.e. some sort of list of tendencies / implications / etc.
>
> Anyone know of such a thing?
The first place to go would probably be Johanna Nichols' _Linguistic
Diversity through Space and Time_, which won a major award from the
LSA several years back. I consider it the most statistically
rigorous and most important book on the subject of universals in print
today.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:05:20 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: domain names
I don't actually have a website host at this point, I just own the
domain name (have for years). (Points to my LJ & gmail.) Quite useful,
honestly; I've gone through probably a half-dozen mail and web hosts
over the years, and never had to change my primary email address. Also
means I'm free to actually change them without hassle, unlike e.g. my
mother using *shudder* AOL.
I got mine through domainzero.com back when it was free, but I'll
probably switch to register4less.com as of next update cycle. Cheapest
I've seen to date that looked at all reliable, at ~$15. And hey, they
support UserFriendly.
If you actually want a cheap *web host*, that's another matter.
- Sai
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:08:24 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: domain names
> Any recommendations? onesite.com looked promising, but I'm not sure what's
> involved.
I'd recommend against it. Read the FAQ - they sign you up for junk
mail, probably with personal data, and you don't own the domain unless
you backpay registration fees (probably inflated) and a $50 blackmail
charge. Otherwise, they keep it.
- Sai
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:49:12 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: tool-words
Are there logic ways to represent the tool words in languages?
I only know the correlative board with indefinite, interogative,
demonstrative, collective and negative things, persons, places etc...
But are there others ways?
It is because that way seems strange to me: I'm unable to understand the
whole "quality" line of that board..
And about the correlatives: in esperanto, some of them may be marked by the
accusative "-n" but wich of them? I don't know how a temporal indefinite
correlative could be the subject or the direct object.
and it is probably why it ends in "-am" wich can't take an extra "-n"... I
should have tought that Zamenhof tought about that....
so only the correlatives that end in vowels take the cases' marks? An
Esperanto speaker to help me?
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:15:50 -0600
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Y'all [was Re: varia]
Mark wrote:
> Just to chime in here - I was born in Massachussetts but raised from
> age 2 in Georgia by parents who were born in Virginia but raised in
> the Midwest. So it would not be surprising if my 'lect were a bit
> more muddled than most.
Yeah, my mother is from Waco and my father from Houston, so I'm
not a very interesting case.
Not to belabor a point, I found the journal article referred
in that news article I mentioned the other day. It's in the _Journal
of English Linguistics_, from 2000. I've saved the PDF and y'all
can access it here:
<http://home.uchicago.edu/~trwier/yall.pdf>
The spread of <y'all> beyond the South is really even more breathtaking
than I had ever suspected. According to that article, not only do
approximately 80% of Southerners use <y'all>, nearly 50% of non-Southerners
do too. That means that there are upwards of 170-180 million people in
the United States who use <y'all>, which is a number greater than all
German speakers, or all French speakers, and almost as many people
as speak Bengali or Hindi, and greater than the populations of the UK,
Ireland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand put together. I had always
thought the number of users of the pronoun to be no higher than 110-120
million, max.
Its spread is apparently linked to no clear factor other than age
and region; non-Southerners who are 65+ years are unlikely to use it
ever (only 6.78% do so), but the percentage increases greatly going
down by age, such that approx. 42.68% of the under-24s use it.
Also, people from the montanian west and all the states that border
the South are more likely to use it than any of the traditional North
or California and (strangely to me) Nevada; but as people in this
forum have stated, it exists even in those places where it's resisted.
Their data as to how <y'all> is actually used outside the South is
less certain, but their preliminary and somewhat anecdotal research
suggests that it has the same functional distribution that it does
in the South. As they say in the article, all these facts suggest
that, for younger speakers especially, <y'all> has lost or is losing
its connotation of Southernness and is becoming simply an Americanism.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:24:14 -0600
From: Cian Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Friday 11 February 2005 03:02 pm, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> I'm trying to calculate the orbital period of an Earth-sized planet at
> 15 AUs out from a star that's about 7.5 times the mass of the Sun. I'm
> guestimating around 50 years, but Kepler's laws don't seem to be much
> help when looking for absolutes; you need a known quantity within the
> same solar system to compare against. Can anyone point me at the
> correct formulae?
>
> Thanks.
Working from Szebehely and Mark, _Adventures in Celestial Mechanics_,
with their statement of Kepler's Law and a few constants from one of
the appendices:
a^3 = GM T^2 / 4pi^2
a = semi-major axis
M = mass of primary
T = orbit period
Rearrange to:
T^2 = 4pi^2 a^3 / GM
T = sqrt(4pi^2 (15 AU)^3 / (1.5 GMsol)
T = 2pi sqrt((15 * 1.496e11 m)^3 / (1.5 * 1.327e20 m^3/sec^2)
T = 2pi sqrt(1.130e37 m^3 / (1.991e20 m^3/sec^2))
T = 2pi sqrt(5.676e16 sec^2)
T = 2.382e8 sec = ~2757 Terra-days = ~7.55 Terra-years
CKR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://crlh.tzo.org/~cian/CR/conlang
Noimma loku:wiapoiemonar. (I think therefore I conlang.)
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:43:01 -0500
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: tool-words
# 1 wrote:
>
> And about the correlatives: in esperanto, some of them may
> be marked by the accusative "-n" but wich of them? I don't
> know how a temporal indefinite correlative could be the
> subject or the direct object.
>
> and it is probably why it ends in "-am" wich can't take an
> extra "-n"... I should have tought that Zamenhof tought about
> that....
>
> so only the correlatives that end in vowels take the cases'
> marks? An Esperanto speaker to help me?
Yes. The ones that end in "u" or "a" can take the accusative "n"
and/or the plural "j" markers. The ones that end in "o" or "e"
can take the accusative "n" but not the plural "j".
--Ph. D.
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:07:16 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: tool-words
Ph. D.
># 1 wrote:
> >
> > And about the correlatives: in esperanto, some of them may
> > be marked by the accusative "-n" but wich of them? I don't
> > know how a temporal indefinite correlative could be the
> > subject or the direct object.
> >
> > and it is probably why it ends in "-am" wich can't take an
> > extra "-n"... I should have tought that Zamenhof tought about
> > that....
> >
> > so only the correlatives that end in vowels take the cases'
> > marks? An Esperanto speaker to help me?
>
>
>Yes. The ones that end in "u" or "a" can take the accusative "n"
>and/or the plural "j" markers. The ones that end in "o" or "e"
>can take the accusative "n" but not the plural "j".
ha! thanks! that's clear
But why so? Why does the word for "something" can't be plural if the word
for "someone" can?
If one had to translate something like "Do you want to have something" and
"Do you want to have some things" would it not be the word "io" at
accusative for both and plural for the second?
Also, does that "-n" ending on the places correlatives ending in "-e" really
can distinct the case? Can a place be the subject/object of a sentence?
or maybe you meant the "-n" ending to distinct the location from the
destination?
"I run somewhere" would take "ie" if I run in the place and "ien" when I run
to that place...
- Max
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:26:11 -0500
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: tool-words
# 1 wrote:
>
> Ph. D. wrote:
>
> ># 1 wrote:
> > >
> > > And about the correlatives: in esperanto, some of them may
> > > be marked by the accusative "-n" but wich of them? I don't
> > > know how a temporal indefinite correlative could be the
> > > subject or the direct object.
> > >
> > > and it is probably why it ends in "-am" wich can't take an
> > > extra "-n"... I should have tought that Zamenhof tought about
> > > that....
> > >
> > > so only the correlatives that end in vowels take the cases'
> > > marks? An Esperanto speaker to help me?
> >
> >
> >Yes. The ones that end in "u" or "a" can take the accusative "n"
> >and/or the plural "j" markers. The ones that end in "o" or "e"
> >can take the accusative "n" but not the plural "j".
>
> ha! thanks! that's clear
>
>
> But why so? Why does the word for "something" can't be plural if the word
> for "someone" can?
>
> If one had to translate something like "Do you want to have something" and
> "Do you want to have some things" would it not be the word "io" at
> accusative for both and plural for the second?
Do you want to have something? = Cxu vi deziras havi ion?
Do you want to have some things? = Cxu vi deziras havi iujn ajxojn?
> Also, does that "-n" ending on the places correlatives ending in "-e"
really
> can distinct the case? Can a place be the subject/object of a sentence?
The accusative ending "n" is also used to indicate motion towards
something. The correlatives ending in "e" are locations, so adding
"n" indicates motion towards those locations.
> or maybe you meant the "-n" ending to distinct the location from the
> destination?
>
> "I run somewhere" would take "ie" if I run in the place and "ien" when I
run
> to that place...
Right.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:48:26 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: determiners
I've created determiners for my conlang and I'd like to know what you think
about them:
The articles are reconisable by the fact they beggin with "h-" (only a few
other words beggin like this such as some aspect and mood markers)
The determiners are necessary for all the nominals including the proper
names
They will take a different tone with the case of their name, these changing
with the voice of the verb: in an active sentence, the subject takes the
rising tone and the object the falling tone; in a passive sentence, the
subject takes the rising and the object the falling; in a middle voice
sentence, the only argument takes the mid tone; in a reciprocal voice
sentence, the two arguments take the mid tone and in an intransitive
sentence, the subject takes the rising tone (I envisage to use the falling
tone to mean that the subject is an experiencer making my conlang nom-abs
but for now it is simply nom-acc)
the three tones are:
Rising: /
Falling: \
Mid: |
A tone affects the whole word and is continuous in it, so longer is the word
slower are the rising and the falling to be on the whole word
The first type of determiners are the possessive adjectives
They indicate the number of the possessed thing(s)
Singular: "he-"
Plural: "heje-"
It takes also the person/number's ending of the possessor(?). These endings
are the same used to conjugate the verbs
Sing Plur
1st -m -bwe
2nd -d -de
3rd -g -j
3rd neutral -gi -hi
So:
\kibine = house
hem \kibine = my house
hejed \kibine = your houses
/wi-zamag /hejed \kibine = your houses is huge/big/high
(/wi-zamag being the verb "to be huge/big/high" conjugated at third person
and "hejed" being at nominative
Etc..
The second type contains the demonstrative articles
Sing Plur
Near hu hudon
Far hin hikan
The third type contains the articles of definiteness
Sing Plur
Def. ha haden
Indef. ho hodin
And the last type contains only the "empty" determiner
Singular: hyt [h9t]
Plural: hythen [h2t_hEn]
It has a few uses:
* It is used for the partitive case
\nege = water
hyt \nege = some water
/me /ze-zabi \hyt \nege = I drink water
* It is used to form some correlatives that need an indication of their case
and number
ho \itawe = a thing
\it = what?
hyt \itawe = something
hyt \it = everything
ho /nuhu = a person
/ite = who?
hyt /nuhu = someone
hyt /ite = everyone
ho \zedwe = a place
\it-zedwe = where?
hyt \zedwe = somewhere
hyt \ze = every where
-> These question words lack the case marking by an article _and they are
the only 3 words to do so_ their case is normaly deductable from the case of
the other argument and if they are both question words there are 2
possibilities
They can be the same question word and in that case, knowing wich is the
subject and the object is useless
If asking "who eats what" or "what eats whom" is the same the context will
probably allow the hearer to know what to answer because such a question in
wich there are more than one questions (what did you say? who did what to
whom?) are often asked by someone who didn't follow a conversation and is
asking to know more, so a sentence like this doesnt carry any information
and does not need to be so precise
* It is used as the word "any" in English
ho /dwabno = a book
hyt /dwabno = any book
But there are exceptions for "anyone" and "anything" whose use of "hyt" with
there related noun means "someone" and "something"
So, both "anything" and "any one" are only "hyt", the context is there to
know wich is meant
/de |uyb /we-zdegod \it \hyt
You-nom. Opt. asp. See-2nd pers. What? Anything!
What do you want to see? Any thing
/de |uyb /we-zdegod \it \hyt
You-nom. Opt. asp. See-2nd pers. Who ? Anyone!
Who do you want to see? Any one
And "anywhere" is the same thing as "somewhere"
They are both "hyt \zedwe" because their meanings are similar in context
So, what you think of these and particularly of that "empty" determiner?
- Max
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:21:45 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Matein Einlich - Revision
I've now revised my Matein Einlich :D
Most notably, I thought that "f->S" was too unnatural, so it now either
stays "f" if initial, or otherwise changes to "pf".
Below are the revised grammar and phonetic changes. The updated Babel text
etc. will be posted to the corresponding topics.
Grammatical changes:
- The plural "-s/-es" got detached and turned into the particle "esh", which
is now placed before the word. It is not used when a specific amount is
given by a number.
- The genitive "'s" turned into the prefixed particle "as" ("asa" before
consonant). The "of"-construction is not used anymore for indicating
material possession.
- Prepositions changed to Postpositions, often suffixed with a hyphen.
- The indefinite article died out, the definite article turned into the
suffixed particle "ti" ("i" after consonant). This definitive marker is also
used for forming the ordinal numbers and fractions from the cardinal numbers.
- Constructions with "do" are not used anymore, e.g. "Have you time?"
instead of "Do you have time?".
- Adverbs (-ly) are not marked anymore.
- Original plural personal pronouns died out. Those are now formed using the
plural marker "esh".
sing. plur.
1st p. I->ej*->ech /EC/ eshej*/eshech
2nd p. you -> iu /i.u/ eshiu
3rd p. (m) he -> chi /Ci/ echi
3rd p. (f) she -> chia /Ci.a/ echia
3rd p. (n) it -> et /Et/ eshet
Mixed gender groups always use the (n) form.
* ej/eshej are outdated forms, hardly used anymore.
- Verbal endings got detached and are now particles placed before the verb.
This eliminated all irregular verbs.
- Tenses don't use any auxiliary verbs anymore, only the particles.
Present Past Pres. Perf. Past Perf. Futur1 Futur2
Particle: -- it isit itit ul ulit
from: -- -ed is+-ed -ed+-ed will will+-ed
Continuous Cont. Past Conditional Cond. Past Passive
Particle: ein einit ut utit + em-
from: -ing -ing+-ed would would+-ed am
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:24:59 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Matein Einlich - Phonetic Changes
Revised phonetic changes (most notably concerning the change of "f")
fricative shift
s -> sh, sh -> ch, h -> ch
vl. stop -> vl. fricative/affricative
p -> f, k -> kh
affrication
f -> pf (not word-initial), t -> ts (both not before consonants)
voiced cons. -> voiceless cons.
b -> p, d -> t, g -> k, v -> f, z -> s, zh -> sh
approximates shift
j -> ch, except ju -> iu (you -> iu /i.u/)
w -> f, except wi -> uj (with -> ujt) and wu -> u (would -> ut)
simplifications
ng, nd, nt -> n, th -> t, dzh -> sh, tsh -> sh, kv -> f
r only initial and after initial consonant.
otherwise after consonants -> kh, after vowels dropped, final -> a
vowel raising
/&/ -> e, /A//V/ -> o, /e//E/ -> i
lowering: o -> a
diphtongisation:
i -> /ai/, o:,/3/ -> /OI/
also used to avoid ambiguity, e.g. sun->shan, son->shaun
There's never more than one of the same diphtong per word.
diphtong shift
/@U/ -> /aU/, /eI/ -> /aI/, /aU/ -> af, /OI/ -> ef
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:26:42 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Matein Einlich - Babel text
Here's the revised Babel text:
1 Naf chaul feulti it cheu un lenfeish ujt sheim esh feuti.
2 Ein sheunei eishfits, esh min it fein flein Chine-ni en it shitsla tia.
3 Eshet it sheu tsa un enata: "Kham! Lit eshech meikh preikh en peun eit
tarau!" Eshet it chus esh preikh einshtit shteun en tsau einstit meuta.
4 Tin eshet it sheu: "Kham! Lit eshech peilt sheitsi feu eshech ujt tsafa
sheiti-tsu, tsa meikh neim feu eshech, sha tets eshech nats em shetsa chaul
euti-euf."
5 Pats CheChim it kham tafun tsu shei sheitsiti en tsafati esh min einit
peilt.
6 CheChim it sheu: "Eipf es un feifel ujt un lenfeish tei isit pikan ein
tu teish, natein tei flen tsu tu ul pei eimfasheipel feu eshet.
7 Kham! Lit eshech kau tafun en khanfiush as-eshet lenfeish, sha tets
eshet nats ul antirshtent eish atau."
8 Sha CheChim it shetsa eshet chaul euti-euf, en eshet it shtaf ein peilt
sheitsiti.
9 Tikhfeu sheitsiti emit neim Pepil, peikhush tia ChaChim khanfiush chaul
asa-feulti lenfeish; tia-fram CheChim it shetsa eshet chaul euti-euf.
Translation:
1 Now the whole world had one language with the same words.
2 Journeying eastwards, men found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3 They said to one another: "Come! Let's make brick and burn it
thorougly!" They used bricks instead of stone and tar instead of mortar.
4 Then they said: "Come! Let's build a city for us with a tower up to the
sky, to make a name for us, so that we are not scattered over the whole earth."
5 But HaShem came down to see the city and the tower men were building.
6 HaShem said: "If as one people with one language they have begun doing
this, nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Come! Let's go down and confuse their language, so that they will not
understand each other."
8 So HaShem scattered them over the whole earth, and they stopped building
the city.
9 Therefore the city was named Babel, because there HaShem confused the
language of the whole world; from there HaShem scattered them over the whole
earth.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:29:05 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Matein Einlich - The North Wind And The Sun
Here's the revised North Wind text:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matein Einlich (Modern English)
The North Wind And The Sun
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Neut feinti en shani einit teishfuts ujsh ut pi shtrana, fin tsefila it kham
elan it uref feum khleukh-ni. Eshet it ekhei tets chu uni it shakheit tsu
meikh tefilati teukh apf asa-chi khleukh ul pi khansheita shtrana ten atoti.
Tin neut feinti it pleu es chaut es chi it khen, pats ti meu chi it pleu, ti
meu khleush tefilati feult asa-chi khleukh eraf chi; en ets lausht neut
feinti it keif apf etimti.
Tin shani chein aft feum, en eimitjits tefilati teukh apf asa-chi khleukh.
En sha neut feinti emit aplish ta khansish tets shani it pi shtranati af eshet.
Translation:
The north wind and the sun were disputing which would be stronger, when a
traveller came along wrapped in a warm cloak. They agreed that who first
succeeded to make the traveller take off his cloak will be considered
stronger than the other.
Then the north wind blew as hard as he could, but the more he blew, the more
closely the traveller folded his cloak around him; and at last the north
wind gave up the attempt.
Then the sun shone out warmly, and immediately the traveller took off his
cloak. And so the north wind was obliged to confess that the sun was the
stronger of them.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:20:00 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proverbs
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:06:12 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Praise Allah, but first tie your camel to a post." I assume that
>the reference is to dismounting for one of the five times of daily
>prayer, but making sure your camel doesn't wander off while you are
>praying.
In Matein Einlich:
Freish Olo, pats uni tsei as-iu khemil tsu fausht.
praise allah, but one-def tie poss-you camel to post
def=definite marker, poss=possessive marker
Let's translate some more proverbs:
http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/proverb.html
- A closed mouth catches no flies.
Italian Proverb
It khlaush maut khetsh nau esh flei.
*past* close mouth catch no *plural* fly.
- A good husband is healthy and absent.
Japanese Proverb
Kuts chashpent pi chilti en epshint.
good husband be healthy and absent.
- A prudent man does not make the goat his gardener.
Hungarian Proverb
frutint min nats mekh kautsi as-et kautina.
prudent man not make goat-def poss-he gardener.
- A single Russian hair outweighs half a Pole.
Traditional Russian Saying
Sheinkil rushein chea autfeik chelpf apf Faul.
single russian hair outweigh half of pole.
- A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the public
opinion.
Chinese Proverb
Feish min mekh as-et aun tisheichin, eiknaurent min falau faplikh afeinchini.
wise man make poss-he own decision, ignorant man follow public opinion-def
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:24:49 -0800
From: Thomas Leigh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Voynich Manuscript book
Greetings all,
I've been intrigued by the discussions about the Voynich ms. on this list for
some time, though I know very little about it.
Anyway, at the bookstore I work in we just got a brand-spankin' new book about
it, called "The Friar and the Cipher" by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone. I was
wondering if any of the folks on the list who are knowledgeable about the
Voynich ms. have seen the book and have an opinion on whether it's any good and
whether it's worth the $26.
Thanks!
Thomas
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:52:10 -0500
From: Matt Arriola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: some Bukisi
Since last night I've been working on a Kur-Pali pidgin I call Bukisi
("from the east"). It inherits a lot from Pali, and there's a drastic
shift in Kur's core vocabulary from a Kur phonology to an indic one.
Also, there are three vowels (a, i, u) with short and long varieties.
Also, tone is lost. The consonants are pronounced as in Hindi. I know
some (all?) of you can't see unicode, so I replaced the macrons with
circumflexes, the tildes over u and i with diareses, and the
a-macron-tilde is an a-ring.
I also wrote it down in devanagari:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/Azathoth500/conlangs/babel-bukisi.jpg
a i u
/a/ /i/ /U/
â î û
/A:/ /i:/ /u:/
1. Bhâsa gatî ca kîu sapâna vã hâ uyâna sap yukâ
2. Pasti paslphû sislphâ bhukisl spâ, slu sû hâ Sinar smï khita, pasva
ghibû hâ stî
3. Slu sukhâ rti "Slâ, yû uktî ya rti suktîu pasva agi." Pasva suktîu
hisyû juttîu kitî ca syutî vastî kitî vã hâ.
4. Slu sukhâ "Slâ, yû sukâ ya rti dagara ca vaisâ ussa vatî hasâ liha
khisâ. Yû sukâ ya rti âsa, hü hukhâ ya rti uyâna samattâ.
5. Huvai adhu hâ phû hâ dagara ca vaisâ ussa slîu paslphûa sukhâ.
6. Huvai sukhâ "Slu paslphû gatî ussa sap bhâsa gatî. Sâ ukhâ iku! Sâ
adü ussa slu så hasâ hü hüktî!
7. Slâ, yû adhu sip ya bhâsa slva, phû slu hasâ hü dughukâ rti bhâsa.
8. Huvai hukhâ tî spâ uyâna samattâ slu, pasva slu nivatti sukhâ hâ dagara.
9. Stî sû hâ blat Babil, munâ Huvai sip hâ tî bhâsa uyânaa. Huvai
hukhâ tî spâ uyâna samattâ paslphû.
1. language one and word-PL uniform is PAST world to whole
2. then people migrate-PAST east from, they find PAST Shinar in
valley, and.then settle PAST there
3. they say-PAST REFL "Come, we make OPT REFL brick-PL then burn."
Then brick-PL use stone-PL as and asphalt mortar as is PAST.
4. They say-PAST "Come, we make OPT REFL city and tower which top FTR
touch sky. We make OPT REFL home, not scatter OPT REFL earth across.
5. God descend PAST under see city and tower which child-PL people build-PAST.
6. God say-PAST "They people one which to language one. Now do-PAST
first! Now that which they plan will not impossible!
7. Come, we descend confuse OPT language they-POSS, under they FTR not
understand REFL language.
8. God scatter-PAST there from earth across they, then they stop build
PAST city.
9. That give PAST name Babel, why God confuse PAST there language
word-POSS. God scatter-PAST there from earth across people.
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:55:59 +0100
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: geemblik
Hi all,
Today I heard a strong example of agglutination in the speech of a Dutch
speaker. He was saying "op een gegeven ogenblik" (=at a certain moment).
Normally "gegeven ogenblik" is pronounced with six syllables:
[X@'Xev@ '[EMAIL PROTECTED] He pronounced it with three: "geemblik" ['Xem=blIk].
The funny thing is that it remained perfectly comprehensible what he was
saying. I get the impression that if such an agglutinated pronunciation
is spoken rather sloppily, it is easier to understand it than
when it is articulated clearly. I guess that sloppy speech makes the
brain starts making more corrections to what is heard than well
articulated speech.
I had already heard a reduction of "gegeven moment" [X@'Xev@ mo'mEnt]
to "gevement" ['Xev@,mEnt] - a reduction from five syllables to three,
but reducing six to three seems like pushing the limits. Are there many
examples in other languages of reducing six syllables to three?
emoráni,
René
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:46 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Saturday 12 February 2005 16:07 +0100,
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:02:29 -0500,
>
> "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > I'm trying to calculate the orbital period of an
> > Earth-sized planet at 15 AUs out from a star that's
> > about 7.5 times the mass of the Sun.
>
> What are you going to do with that planet? If you want
> an Earthlike planet with nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere and
> lots of life on it, forget it! A star with about 7.5
> times the mass of the Sun has a very short lifespan (only
> a few million years), which means that the planet doesn't
> have enough time to evolve an advanced biosphere before
> the star goes bust. Your star would go supernova before
> the planet has formed a solid crust.
>
> And according to current theories, such huge stars don't
> have planets at all. High-mass stars rotate rapidly
> (with periods of a few *hours* as compared to the
> 20-something *days* of the Sun) and have angular momenta
> comparable with that of the entire solar system (where
> the *mass* is mostly in the Sun, but the *angular
> momentum* mostly in the planets), which indicates that
> they don't have planets to transfer their angular
> momentum to.
Sorry for hijacking, but ...
While reading this thread, I wondered if it wouldn't be
better to put my planet into the orbit of κ Virgo[1] to
make an end to unscientific guesswork. However, an
astronomy program that came with a version of Knoppix Linux
said κ Virgo was 85.6x our sun in size, was in class K3III
(cf. G2V), had a surface temperature of 4730K (cf. 5860K),
had a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of
53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days). Would it be better suitable
for life than Mark's star?
Thanks,
Carsten
[1] Kappa because my first name begins with [k], Virgo
because I was born on August 26. It's the same method Mark
Reed or Ray Brown or so used for placing their conworld.
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena 15-A7-58-10-2-1A-22
ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:30:15 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Re: domain names
On Sunday 13 February 2005 05:05, Sai Emrys wrote:
> Cheapest I've seen to date that looked at
> all reliable, at ~$15. And hey, they support
> UserFriendly.
Did I understand you right -- $15/month just for the domain
name? I have my website hosted for ¤2/month inclusively one
domain name (.de, you could also choose .at, .ch or .fl).
No ads.
> If you actually want a cheap *web host*, that's another
> matter.
Seems so.
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena 15-A7-58-10-2-1A-22
ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:30:50 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Weekly Vocab 1 and 2 in Ayeri
Hey!
Look what I've found ... It's (at least much of) the Weekly
Vocabs in one file -- which reminds me to go on copying my
own vocabulary stuff and posting it here ...
New words are marked with a "+". It's just that I don't
forget to write them into my dictionary.
On Tuesday 25 November 2003 21:42 +0100, Christopher Wright
wrote:
> Vocab 2:
> 6 April
>
> 1. round
hicamu
> The king's hall is round.
Trendáng lanyaena nuhicamu.
+trenda, na: hall, big room (NOTE: places are animate, too!)
> 2. everyone
balimen, ennya (both mean the same because I haven't kept
book of my words thoroughly enough)
> Everyone is dancing.
Balimenang tuyiyà.
> 3. same
camáo: to equal
> I am wearing the same shoes as the (choose appropriate
> monarch title).
Eng lundaon seng lei ninayang camáràn adanyanlei (choose
appropriate monarch title).
+lunda, ni mpl: shoes
> 4. breed
+selyán, na
> We are a breed above the commoners.
Ea yomáynang selyánaris eirarya vugonin.
+vugon, na mpl: commoners
> 5. to obey
+rodamáo
> They must obey us.
Ang rua rodamiyàtin aynaris.
> 6. to notice
+cengao
> I do not notice them often.
Ang cengoiayin iyàtaris comila.
+comila: often
> 7. angry
crito
> Now the commoners are angry.
Edauyi vugonang nucritoye.
> 8. to revolt (against something)
+critáo (arilinya (= something)) < crito
> They are revolting against me.
Critaiyàtang ayaris.
> 9. to lose (win, not find)
+pahalao
> My soldiers have lost.
Penayáng ayena mapahaliyà.
+penaya, na: soldier, warrior
> 10. to vote
+yetáo
> The people vote against me.
Ayeang yetaiyàn ran ayaris.
+aye, na mpl: people, +ran: against
> And the Advanced Section:
>
> 11. to opress
> The commoners opress me! Wail of anguish!
> 12. suffrage
> This suffrage is bad for my coffer.
> 13. succession
> 14. to abrogate
> The line of succession has been most unfortunately
> abrogated.
--------------------------------------------------
> Vocab 1:
> 30 March
>
> 1. to think
nilao (to think), paronáo (to believe)
> I think about many things.
Le nilayang linyaicanon.
+linya: thing, ni (from arilinya, something)
> 2. to plan
noao
> I plan to go to town today.
Ang manoayin sarayam aironea davano.
+noao: to want; *to plan* (when used with the benefactive)
> 3. road
sasano, ni
> I will go by the low road.
??
> 4. cloak
tova, ni
> I took my warmest cloak.
Le mapahayang tovaon ayena silei várà numato.
> 5. to stumble
+vantáo
> I stumbled on the road.
Ea mavantáyang mangasaha sasanón
> 6. wind
pin, na
> The wind was fierce.
Pinang mayomaiyà nuhogo.
+hogo: fierce, wild
> 7. to snap
> It snapped my cloak.
sense?
> 8. to freeze
<to be cold>
> My ears are freezing.
Tang ayena nusaticoye. (My ears <are> cold)
+tang, na mpl: ear
> 9. ice
+carsang, ni
> I think they have become ice.
Paronáyang eng mataviyàtang carsangon.
+tavao: to get, *to become*
> 10. inn
+condanga, na
> I arrive at the inn half-dead.
Ang saháyin condangaea nutenyangas.
+teno: alive, +tenya: dead, +-ngas: almost
All in all, this is 20 new words and 2 enhanced meaning.
Cheers,
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà nangimoea eibenem ena
15-A7-58-10-2-1A-22 ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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