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There are 24 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: affixes
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Syllabary - Take Two
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Syllabary - Take Two
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Pejorative words (was: Introducing myself, and several questions)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. stress
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Syllabary - Take Two
From: Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: stress
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: OT: Doubting Thomas: was "Introducing Myself"
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Matein Einlich - Universal Declaration of Human Rights
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: stress
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Matein Einlich - Babel text
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Matein Einlich - The North Wind And The Sun
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Piraha, was Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: affixes
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:30:19 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Hallo!
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:52:00 -0500,
Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
>
> >> > I find naturalistic conlangs (i.e., conlangs that look like natlangs,
> >> > with a sense of historicity) beautiful and conlangs that give away
> >> > their artificiality at first sight ugly, but there are people around
> >> > here who have a different taste.
> >>
> >> So Jörg, what conlangs give their artificiality away? There are so many
> >> features of a language that could considered "artificial." Many of the
> >> linguistic scholars of glossolalia were so sure they could identify the
> >> artificial aspects of that linguistic practice by noting the 1) open
> >> syllables, 2) reduced phonology, 3) echoism, etc. that we find in
> >> Hawaiian,
> >> for instance. An over regularity of grammar?
> >
> > It is not easy to say, but an extreme regularity of phonology, grammar
> > and word formation looks artificial, so does, for example, a language
> > which superimposes some sort of grammatical categories onto the IPA
> > chart.
>
> Now what would that be? Curious.
An example (conlang, of course; I doubt that there are natlangs
like that):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/269
Here's a quote:
] The division voluntary/involuntary is the main one, with a plosive
] (when representing no other manner, or, in their linguistic
] terms, 'clear' it is ?) representing voluntary, and fricatives
] (when 'clear' h). Other manners are indicateded by POA. If mutual,
] bilabial or labiodental, if reflexive alvolear, if conditional,
] velar. In the case of velar, for fricative one uses a post-alvolear
] fricative.
The author in question abandoned that idea after being told (by me)
that it doesn't feel natural.
> > The worst offenders are philosophical languages and closed-
> > vocabulary schemes.
>
> Yes. Wilkins allowed no room for neologism. But as someone else remarked,
> no language that intends to have things to say in general about the world
> can have a closed-vocabulary--not even a philosophical language (should it
> ever be put to use). If you couldn't neologize, then you would just produce
> clumsy circumlocutions.
Exactly.
> [...]
>
> >> Sounds, rather, like that South American tribe whose name I can't
> >> remember;
> >> I have it on the tip of my tongue. Their language was also almost devoid
> >> of
> >> abstractions, and they showed an inability to calculate, as well, i.e.,
> >> to
> >> think in abstractions. We even discussed it about a year ago.
> >
> > Pirahã is the name. I could believe the story if it was set in a
> > Eurasian relic area and involved the speakers of that language
> > having bony ridges above their eyes and mixed offspring between
> > them and normal humans being sterile etc., because then it would be
> > a candidate for a Neanderthal or Homo erectus survival. However,
> > it is in the wrong location for that, and I am pretty sure that
> > it is a hoax.
>
> A hoax, huh? Hadn't thought of that. But what would be the incentive of
> creating such a fiction?
There is a tradition of such hoaxes, which usually concern some kind
of "discovery" that challenges a well-established assumption of the
discipline in question (this time, the linguistic uniformitarian
principle). I have seen several such hoaxes; the Pirahã matter
looks like another one of those.
Another explanation would be some kind of mistake, of course.
> Isn't it more interesting to consider that there
> are pockets of Homo Sapiens that do feature "alternative" cognitive skills?
> I think I read something about how the Piraha~ exhibit certain traits that
> may be due to overbreeding and isolation. They may have evolved no need (or
> lost it) for history, raconteurship, or calculation. I remember asking
> whether any study had been done of a Pirah child being brought up in a
> different environment, interested in knowing whether there was a genetic
> disposition towards discalculus, non-abstract thinking, etc., or if it was
> just cultural.
>
> Not sure I am convinced that these features can only be assigned to
> Neanderthals or Homo Erectus. They seem to suggest a regression rather than
> a lack of development. And who really knows how cognitively developed the
> Neanderthals were? BTW, latest Scientific American has an article on the
> "hobbits" of Flores again. We talked about that last year. It seems that
> homo sapiens can go through quite a number of physical and mental
> adaptations at the group level--given circumstances.
The "Flores dwarfs" (Homo floresiensis) did not evolve from H. sapiens,
but from H. erectus. They are thus a cul-de-sac sister species of us,
just like H. neanderthalensis.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:04:12 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: affixes
Hallo!
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:50:27 +0000,
Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ithkiul sounds like it's *thinks* there a word for a language with a
> very small number of actual roots and a lot of derivation and
> compounding. Some people argue Nahuatl is that way... but I forget the
> term now. So basically I don't know what I want to say.
The word you are looking for is "oligosynthetic". And the claim that
Nahuatl is oligosynthetic is utterly false.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:46:45 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Syllabary - Take Two
--- Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:52 AM
> Subject: Syllabary - Take Two
>
>
> > I've always wanted to play around with a syllabary
> but
> > I wanted it to be computer friendly too. So here's
> my
> > latest bit of fooling around:
<snip>
>
> Fine! That's not really an abugida since there're
> two separate series of
> consonants with two different inherent vowels, and
> the value of the
> "modifier" (is that really a diacritic?) varies
> according the inherent
> vowel. I think there's an ANADEW for such a writing
> system but I don't
> remember it's name.
>
It might be a diacritic or and underline, or something
attached at the left or right side of the symbol.
That's all pretty arbitrary.
> But it's not user-friendly for everyone.
> To type the character "|" I have to type AltGr (the
> right Alt key) and the
> "1" key. On some laptop computers with only one Alt
> key (commonly at the
> left of the space key), I must type Ctrl-Alt-1 (a
> combination of THREE
> keys!!!).
I chose the bar just because it it a character not
commonly used. It could just as easily have been ^ or
%. Since the bar is a normal character on a standard
PC keyboard I assumed (wrongly, as it turns out) that
everyone had that key on their keyboard.
> And remember that the apostrophe can be
> automatically replaced by some other
> character in programs such as Word.
>
> At all events, if ever you'd design such a font, to
> use it more easily I'd
> write a Keyman file such as:
>
> VERSION 6.0
>
> NAME "ASCIISyllabary"
>
I'm not familiar with Keyman.
> Which would allow me to type more easilly (and more
> intuitively) like
> illustrated in the table below:
>
> b bi bo bu by be
>
> B b B' b' B| b|
>
Yes, that's works out nicely.
The use of a second charatcer to modify the syllable
raises an intersting idea. Suppose it were permitted
to type a consonant and then a vowel, but in the
design of the font the consonant was drawn to be the
left half of a symbol and the vowel drawn to be the
right half of the same symbol. (or the top and bottom
of the same symbol). That way each syllable would be
a single symbol, but it would be composed of a
consonant part and a vowel part. Similar in concept,
I suppose, to hangul.
Would that be a syllabary? Technically each syllable
has a unique symbol but that symbol is composed of
pieces that are alphabetic in nature.
--gary
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:49:54 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I've not read the SciAm article, but it seems to be generally thought that
> floresiensis was an erectus offshoot, not a sapiens one.
>
> Andreas
IIRC, the Scientific American article supports the idea that Floresiensis is
from Sapiens, and shows dwarfism. It exhibits the skull features. Its main
point is that island species tend to exhibit either gigantism or dwarfism
for purposes of survival and they give examples with the dwarf elephant and
the giant rat. I'm not saying I believe it (back to doubt, again!) but this
was the thrust of the essay.
Sally
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:24:24 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:43:40 -0500, Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "B. Garcia" wrote:
>
> >Why worry about what offends people? As long as your conlang isn't
> >created with offensive words (such as using natlang offensive words as
> >words in your conlang... like for instance ni**er for "love").
>
> ANADEW. See various pidgins, argots, and cants that borrow swearwords
> as ordinary words. Some English speakers find "pickaninny" nearly as
> offensive as the N word, but Tok Pisin has borrowed it as the
> ordinary word for "child":
>
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0006B&L=conlang&P=R13857&D=0&m=16554
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin
But it wasn't consciously borrowed, with the intent to stir the shit,
as would using an racist or offensive word in a conlang. Pickaninny is
most likely due to phonetic development from the Portuguese word for
"small". It was often taken into 19th and turn of the century English
*as* an offensive word, from what I recall. That's the difference.
>
> Worse yet, the Russian argot called Mat:
>
> http://www.kenai-peninsula.org/archives/000023.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat_%28language%29
>
This is an argot, a slang. Russians hardly speak like that _formally_.
> Heck some would argue that if Dutch were a conlang, its word
> |natie| for "nation" would offend anyone who remembers the
> Holocaust because it's pronounced roughly ["na.t_si].
> (Forgive me if I mistranscribed it into X-SAMPA; some details
> of the notation are still new to me.)
>
Yes, and the word for "what" is "ano" in Tagalog, which means "anus" in Spanish.
My point was, since I think you're missing it is, if you're worried
about offense, the only way you could offend really, is to
_intentionally use_ an offensive word in your conlang with the
_intent_ to stir the shit and cause trouble. Most of your examples are
either unintentional, were non-offensive words made to be offensive
words, or slang.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:34:06 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Syllabary - Take Two
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:52:29 -0800, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Syllabary - Take Two
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've always wanted to play around with a syllabary but
> I wanted it to be computer friendly too. So here's my
> latest bit of fooling around:
>
> A conlang syllabary designed to be used with a
> standard
> English keyboard and an ASCII font (yet to be
> designed).
>
> Each letter of the Roman alphabet is assigned a
> syllable.
>
> The letters can be written in upper case or lower
> case,
> and with or without an apostrophe or vertical bar "|"
> which alter the vowel sounds. With a font designed
> from scratch for the syllabary the apostrophe and bar
> could become some kind of modifier stroke attached to
> the preceeding symbol.
Hey, that's a pretty neat idea. Here's a system I just came up with for kuraw:
b - ba /ba/
b, - be /be/
b'- bi /bi/
b,|- bo /bo/
b. - bu /bu/
b* - b /b/
b,, - bay /baj/
b|~ - baw /bau/
b|, - bey /bej/
b'| - boy /boy/
- - accent
My name (roughly):
b-r' j,-m*s* gar*s'-y /bari jems garsija/
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:26:55 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pejorative words (was: Introducing myself, and several questions)
Barry Garcia wrote:
> But it wasn't consciously borrowed, with the intent to stir the shit,
> as would using an racist or offensive word in a conlang. Pickaninny is
> most likely due to phonetic development from the Portuguese word for
> "small". It was often taken into 19th and turn of the century English
> *as* an offensive word, from what I recall. That's the difference.
Pequeninho IIRC; the word arose from the early Portuguese adventures in
Africa; and many West Africans were already using a Port.-based trade pidgin
by the time the slave trade developed to mass proportions. The word may have
been used (non-pejor.) by early slaves in the US; then as you say, the
whites adopted it and pejorized it. BTW I think I've seen the form _pikin_
reported from some pidgin or other.
My little secret-- lately I've been adapting some Yiddish slang terms into
Kash slang, but with phonological distortions, of course. They haven't made
it online yet, however.
çamak(a) /Sa'mak(a)/-- penis, erection (schmuck)
takas-- butt, rear end, ass (tuckas)
peçukas-- crazy, silly, ridiculous (meshugas); pepecuci-- such a person
nundik-- a boring, irritating person (noodnik)
In genl. I'm viewing them as loans from Gwr languages........
Would anyone consider these offensive?
Still working on çelep (schlep)-- something like 'drag s.t. heavy; (fig.)
carry around an unwanted or undeserved burden ~bad reputation etc.'
Other recent additions:
calupa /tSa'lupa/ --a great big mess; total disorder
kahuna-- young of the kawu /kaU)/, a food animal......
:-))))))
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:42:20 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
----- Original Message -----
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ANADEW. See various pidgins, argots, and cants that borrow swearwords
> as ordinary words.
Including AIUI Quebec French, which borrows a whole gamut of strong language
from English, as very much milder terms, that may be used in moderately polite
company, according to my (lone) informant.
Paul
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:56:34 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: stress
I'm now trying to find a good way to create the stress for my conlang
But I'd want it to be natural AND regular
Making it unpredictable would force me to write or to remember it for the
whole words as in English
And I want it to seem natural to not have to think every times "ho no that's
not that one"
So I'd like to ask: Does a regular stress has to depend of its position from
the end of the word? Or from it's beginning (I think like Finnish)?
Is it possible to make it depends from its position from the beggining or
the end of the root? or always on the first, second, third prefix/suffix? or
the last one?
May it depends of the fact that it is a verb, a noun, an adverb..?
It can depends of the word, I know that Romanian stresses the penultima
syllable if the word ends with a syllable and the last one if it ends with a
consonant.
May it depends of something else?
There's a way I've thought of, say me if it sounds natural or if it's too
weird
I stress the first syllable of the word's root with one exception: when the
first syllable's consonant isn't aspirated and that there is one or more
others in the word, the first of them is stressed
The stressed syllable has an higher pitch and is a little longer.
So:
(on verbs, the prefix is always separated by a "-")
we-khate /we'k_hate/ = to love
ze-bana /we'bana/ = to kill
ze-gwedze /ze'g_wedz)e/ = to read
ze-thatane /ze't_hatane/ = to make (someone) born -> (for a doctor or a
mother...)
khate /'khate/ = love
bana /'bana/ = death
thatane /t_hatane/ = life
but
na-tatha /nata't_ha/ = ~there is/are -> a little like the Spanish "Hay" (it
is always conjugated at impersonnal without pronoun)
mathe /ma't_he/ = way, manner
In sentences, the verb conjugates in voice with an infix ("ha", "ho", or
"hi") placed after the first syllable of the root. With that stress method,
I'm sure that it will never be stressed because it's neither the first nor
an aspirated syllable
Also, when two pronouns are next from each other, the first will have it's
first syllable stressed, so they will be pronounced has a word
That way it is regular and easy to remember but does that sounds natural?
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:07:43 +0100
From: Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Syllabary - Take Two
<WARNING> UTF-8 </WARNING>
On Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:46 PM, Gary Shannon wrote:
>> But it's not user-friendly for everyone.
>> To type the character "|" I have to type AltGr (the
>> right Alt key) and the
>> "1" key. On some laptop computers with only one Alt
>> key (commonly at the
>> left of the space key), I must type Ctrl-Alt-1 (a
>> combination of THREE
>> keys!!!).
>
> I chose the bar just because it it a character not
> commonly used. It could just as easily have been ^ or
> %. Since the bar is a normal character on a standard
> PC keyboard I assumed (wrongly, as it turns out) that
> everyone had that key on their keyboard.
In fact I do have that key on my keyboard, but that's one of those keys with
three characters on them:
* one of those characters (the ampersand) is displayed when I simply type on
the key,
* another one (the digit 1) is displayed when I type on the key with the
shift key pressed,
* and a last one (the vertical bar) is displayed when I type on the key with
the AltGr key (or the Ctrl-Alt combination) pressed.
Other characters which I can type only with the AltGr key: @, #, {, }, [, ],
´, `, ~, \, EUR.
So when I need the vertical bar to say "or" in a C++ program or to write an
absolute value, there's no problem at all. But if I have to type AltGr or
Ctrl + Alt for a third of the syllables and shift for an half of the
syllables, since Keyman exists and I have a license, I prefer to use it...
>
>> And remember that the apostrophe can be
>> automatically replaced by some other
>> character in programs such as Word.
>>
>> At all events, if ever you'd design such a font, to
>> use it more easily I'd
>> write a Keyman file such as:
>>
>> VERSION 6.0
>>
>> NAME "ASCIISyllabary"
>>
>
> I'm not familiar with Keyman.
>
>> Which would allow me to type more easilly (and more
>> intuitively) like
>> illustrated in the table below:
>>
>> b bi bo bu by be
>>
>> B b B' b' B| b|
>>
>
> Yes, that's works out nicely.
>
> The use of a second charatcer to modify the syllable
> raises an intersting idea. Suppose it were permitted
> to type a consonant and then a vowel, but in the
> design of the font the consonant was drawn to be the
> left half of a symbol and the vowel drawn to be the
> right half of the same symbol. (or the top and bottom
> of the same symbol). That way each syllable would be
> a single symbol, but it would be composed of a
> consonant part and a vowel part. Similar in concept,
> I suppose, to hangul.
>
> Would that be a syllabary? Technically each syllable
> has a unique symbol but that symbol is composed of
> pieces that are alphabetic in nature.
In a syllabary, every syllable is not necessarilly written with a single
symbol.
For example, in Japanese there is the following trio:
㯠= ha in hiragana
ã° = ba in hiragana (written as ha with two little strokes)
ã± = pa in hiragana (written as ha with a little ring)
Still in the hiragana syllabary, you have:
ã = ki
よ = yo
ã—ょ = kyo (= ki followed by a small yo)
In East Cree you have:
Ḡ= pa (that's a character similar to a less-than sign)
á¹ = paa (pa with a dot above)
ᑆ = pwaa (paa with a dot before)
More, when you change the vowel, you simply turn the character (or you
mirror it if it's not symmetrical).
Therefore you have:
pa = Ḡ(a less-then-like character)
pi = á± (a capital-lambda-like character)
pu = á³ (a greater-then-like character)
pe = ᯠ(a V-like character)
Jean-François
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:49:31 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: stress
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:56:34 -0500, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: stress
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm now trying to find a good way to create the stress for my conlang
>
> But I'd want it to be natural AND regular
>
> Making it unpredictable would force me to write or to remember it for the
> whole words as in English
>
Spanish, has a pretty regular stress system, and it's naturalistic.
> And I want it to seem natural to not have to think every times "ho no that's
> not that one"
>
Well, what does sound natural to you? What doesn't?
> So I'd like to ask: Does a regular stress has to depend of its position from
> the end of the word? Or from it's beginning (I think like Finnish)?
>
> Is it possible to make it depends from its position from the beggining or
> the end of the root? or always on the first, second, third prefix/suffix? or
> the last one?
I think you can look at it either way, but the labels for stress
position work from the end of the word.
>
> May it depends of the fact that it is a verb, a noun, an adverb..?
It's quite possible to use stress to indicate role. I mean, if you can
have Esperanto which uses vowels to indicate role, why not stress?
>
> There's a way I've thought of, say me if it sounds natural or if it's too
> weird
>
Really, I don't think you can get "too weird" or "unnatural" with
stress. Well, maybe if everything were stressed on exactly the same
syllable position then yeah.
Tagalog uses stress to differentiat words.
áso - dog
asó - smoke
Kaibígan - friend
Kaíbigan - lover (I think)
> I stress the first syllable of the word's root with one exception: when the
> first syllable's consonant isn't aspirated and that there is one or more
> others in the word, the first of them is stressed
>
> The stressed syllable has an higher pitch and is a little longer.
>
> So:
>
> (on verbs, the prefix is always separated by a "-")
>
> we-khate /we'k_hate/ = to love
> ze-bana /we'bana/ = to kill
> ze-gwedze /ze'g_wedz)e/ = to read
> ze-thatane /ze't_hatane/ = to make (someone) born -> (for a doctor or a
> mother...)
>
> khate /'khate/ = love
> bana /'bana/ = death
> thatane /t_hatane/ = life
>
> but
>
> na-tatha /nata't_ha/ = ~there is/are -> a little like the Spanish "Hay" (it
> is always conjugated at impersonnal without pronoun)
> mathe /ma't_he/ = way, manner
>
> In sentences, the verb conjugates in voice with an infix ("ha", "ho", or
> "hi") placed after the first syllable of the root. With that stress method,
> I'm sure that it will never be stressed because it's neither the first nor
> an aspirated syllable
>
> Also, when two pronouns are next from each other, the first will have it's
> first syllable stressed, so they will be pronounced has a word
>
> That way it is regular and easy to remember but does that sounds natural?
>
Here's the stress pattern in Ayhan:
- Stress falls on the ultimate syllable if the root word ends in a
consonant, except m, n, ng (nasals) or diphthong, and does not
contain other dipthongs: Kamád, kamáy
- Stress falls on the penultimate if the word ends in a vowel, nasal
(m, n, ng), the word contains two diphtongs, or the penultimate is a
diphthong: kibána, káydey, kibáyna,
- Stress falls on the antepenultimate if the antepenultimate is a
diphthong, and the word ends in a consonant: káybanaw, séyhangat
- If a word is stressed differently than the above rules, when the
word is written, stress is indicated, otherwise not.
I'm debating whether or not to keep the rule about roots keeping their
stress depending upon whether they're affixed or not.
I haven't gotten into specifics, but those are the primary guidelines.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:01:33 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Doubting Thomas: was "Introducing Myself"
Hi!
Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Also, I'd be curious to know your answer to my question: "what fixed notions
> do we have about human tribal behavior, or human language and cognition that
> we don't want unsettled?"
Well, it's probably a boring answer: I just don't know until something
is unsettled that I absolutely cannot accept to be unsettled. I
*think* that I am very tolerant towards claims that anything I thought
was true, is in fact false, if there is good reason to believe so and
to adjust the model. This does not mean that I believe in surprising
new facts immediately, it just means that once convinced, I think I
can accept a lot.
Just to give an example about the unbelievability I feel in the Pirahã
stories: I find it extremely hard to see how a human being even from
the strangest place on earth can possibly fail to learn to add 1+1
predictably. The claim about not counting is strong: the total lack
of numbers even for the most simple ones: 1,2,3. Thus adults could
not learn to add 1+1 although trying to learn that for months. This
seems just too basic to me: you have *one* apple, get another *one*,
then I *think* it must be possible to learn in eight months for any
healthy human that the result will be *two* apples. I mean
conceptually, even if the native language lacks words for numbers.
Failing to learn this is something I find extremely hard to believe.
I quote: 'After eight months of daily efforts, without ever needing to
call the Pirahãs to come to class (all meetings were started by them
with much enthusiasm), the people concluded that they could not learn
this material and classes were abandoned. Not one Pirahã learned to
count to ten in eight months. None had learned to add 3+1 or even 1+1
(if regularly reponding '2' to the latter is evidence of learning --
only occasionally would some get the answer right. This seemed random
to us, as indeed similar experiences were shown to be random in
Gordon's research, see below)'
That's just weird, isn't it.
**Henrik
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:28:49 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Matein Einlich - Universal Declaration of Human Rights
I've now translated a longer real-world example, which was very good to find
any remaining edges to be rounded, so I've completed another revision. The
other texts will be posted in the corresponding threads.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matein Einlich (Modern English) 3.0
Chuneifisel Tikhleseichen apf esh Chumen Reit
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Freiempil
---------
Fisesh reikhakneichen apf einchisin teiknitsiti en apf ike'el en aneleinepel
esh reiti apf ol esh mimpa apf chumen femeiliti pi faunteichen apf freitam,
shasteis en feish feulti-ni,
Fisesh teishsikaut en khantimt fau esh chumen reit isit rishalt pespeses esh
ekht-ni ujsh isit autseish khanchens apf menkheint, en etfinti apf feult
ujsh-ni chumen esh pi'ein chel incheu freitam apf shpeish en peilipf en
freitam fram feia en font isit pi frakhleim es cheiist eshfiseicheni apf
khaman feifeli,
Fisesh et pi ishinchel, eipf min pi nats tsu pi it khamfil tsu chef rikheus,
es lesht reishaut, tsu ripilchen ekeinst teiseni en apsichen, tet esh chumen
reit chut pi it fratikht pei ruli apf lau,
Fisesh et pi ishinchel tsu framaut teifilefmint apf freintli esh rileichen
peitujn esh neichen,
Fisesh feifeli apf esh it Chuneit Neicheni chef Shautseti-ni it ri'epfeum
as-eshet feit fantemintel chumen reit-ni, teiknititi-ni en feus apf chumen
feusheni en ike'el esh reiti-ni apf esh men en esh ujmen en chef it
titseumein tsu framaut shachil fraksish en kuta esh shtentet apf leipf lauka
freitem-ni,
Fisesh esh Mimpa Shtet isit flish eshet shilf tsu esheif, kha'afiseichen-ni
ujt esh it Chuneit Neicheni, framaucheni apf chuneifisel rishfikh fau en
apsheufensh apf esh chumen reit en fantemintel esh freitam,
Fisesh khaman ein anteshtent apf teish esh reit en esh freitem pi apf
kreitisht eimfautsens fau fal ri'eleisecheni apf teish flish,
Nau, tikhfau,
Shinisel Esimpliti,
Frakhleim teish Chuneifisel Tikhleseichen apf esh Chumen Reit es khaman
shtentet apf esheifmint fau ol feifel en ol esh neichen, tsu inti tet ifisi
eintifitchuel en ifisi euken apf shasheiti, ein kheif teish Tikhleseichen
khanshtent meint-ni, chel shteif pei ein teish en itchukheichen tsu framaut
rishfikh fau teish esh reit en esh freitam en pei fraksiseif esh misha,
neichenel en eintaneichenel, tsu sichua as-eshet chuneifisel en ipfikhtif
rikhakneichen en apsheufens, peut eman feifeli apf esh Mimpa Shteit eshet
shilf en eman feifeli apf esh tsisitasi as-eshet chusisteichen-anta.
Translation
-----------
Preamble
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable
rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom,
justice and peace in the world,
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous
acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a
world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and
freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of
the common people,
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as
a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human
rights should be protected by the rule of law,
Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations
between nations,
Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed
their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the
human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to
promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation
with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and
observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,
Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the
greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,
Now, therefore,
The General Assembly,
Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of
achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every
individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly
in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these
rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international,
to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both
among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of
territories under their jurisdiction.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:28:05 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: stress
# 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I'd like to ask: Does a regular stress has to depend of its position from
> the end of the word? Or from it's beginning (I think like Finnish)?
It could be either, but not necessarily. It can also be determined by syllable
weight
as well (which may mean different things to different languages: vowel length,
codas,
particular codas, etc.). It also doesn't even have to belong to the word
itself:
In French, and to some extent Ancient Greek, stress is determined by the phrase.
> Is it possible to make it depends from its position from the beggining or
> the end of the root? or always on the first, second, third prefix/suffix? or
> the last one?
Germanic in general does the first option. I'm not sure about suffix/prefix
stressing in particular (what happens to words without suffixes or prefixes?),
but I do know that there are some suffixes that will automatically take the
stress
when affixed (e.g. Spanish -ción).
> May it depends of the fact that it is a verb, a noun, an adverb..?
Ancient Greek had different stress systems for (most) verbs: verbs had a regular
"recessive" accent, meaning that the accent would go as far towards the front
of the
word as the rules would let it. Other parts of speech had a lexical accent
fixed
on one mora (though it might move to the right if inflections caused it to
stand in
a place where stress is not allowed to be by the rules).
English as well has a few rules where stress changes by part of speech: there
are
some words that are a noun when accented on the first syllable, and a verb when
accented
on the second, such as "object", and "pervert".
> There's a way I've thought of, say me if it sounds natural or if it's too
> weird
>
> I stress the first syllable of the word's root with one exception: when the
> first syllable's consonant isn't aspirated and that there is one or more
> others in the word, the first of them is stressed
It's a little bit unusual, as I don't think onset consonants usually affect
syllable
stress.
> Also, when two pronouns are next from each other, the first will have it's
> first syllable stressed, so they will be pronounced has a word
That seems sensible in itself.
> That way it is regular and easy to remember but does that sounds natural?
See the "Stress System Database":
http://www.cf.ac.uk/psych/ssd/#spc
...for a list of languages and the stress systems they use, and also a system
for representing
regular stress rules--if your language has regularly-assigned stress, and you
can't represent
it in that system, there's a good chance you're doing something unusual (which
isn't to say
that another natlang isn't already doing even worse).
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:31:00 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Matein Einlich - Babel text
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matein Einlich (Modern English) 3.0
Pisicheit (Pukh apf Shinishis) Sheftsa Ilifin, Un-Nein)
(Bereshit (Book of Genesis) Chapter 11, 1-9)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Nau chaul feulti it chef un lenfeish ujt sheim esh feuti.
2 Ein sheunei eishfets, esh men it feint flein Cheine-ni en it shitsel tia.
3 Eshet it shei tsu un enata: "Kham! Lit eshech meikh preikh en peun et
tarau!" Eshet it chus esh preikh einshtit shtaun en tsa einstit mauta.
4 Tin eshet it shei: "Kham! Lit eshech peilt sheitsi fau eshech ujt tsaua
skeiti-tsu, tsu meikh neim fau eshech, shau tet eshech nats em chetsa chaul
euti-aufa."
5 Pats CheChim it kham taun tsu shi sheitsiti en tsauati esh men einit peilt.
6 CheChim it shei: "Eipf es un feifel ujt un lenfeish eshet isit pikein
ein tu teish, natein eshet flen tsu tu ul pi eimfashipel fau eshet.
7 Kham! Lit eshech kau taun en khanchus as-eshet lenfeish, shau tet eshet
nats ul anteshtent eish atau."
8 Shau CheChim it chetsa eshet chaul euti-aufa, en eshet it shtaf ein
peilt sheitsiti.
9 Tikhfau sheitsiti emit neim Pepil, pikhaus tia ChaChim khanchus lenfeish
apf chaul feulti; tia-fram CheChim it chetsa eshet chaul euti-aufa.
Translation:
1 Now the whole world had one language with the same words.
2 Journeying eastwards, men found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3 They said to one another: "Come! Let's make brick and burn it
thorougly!" They used bricks instead of stone and tar instead of mortar.
4 Then they said: "Come! Let's build a city for us with a tower up to the
sky, to make a name for us, so that we are not scattered over the whole earth."
5 But HaShem came down to see the city and the tower men were building.
6 HaShem said: "If as one people with one language they have begun doing
this, nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Come! Let's go down and confuse their language, so that they will not
understand each other."
8 So HaShem scattered them over the whole earth, and they stopped building
the city.
9 Therefore the city was named Babel, because there HaShem confused the
language of the whole world; from there HaShem scattered them over the whole
earth.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:33:22 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Matein Einlich - The North Wind And The Sun
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matein Einlich (Modern English) 3.0
Naut Ujni en Shani
(The North Wind And The Sun)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Naut ujni en shani einit teishfuts ujsh ut pi shtrana, fin trefila it kham
elan it uref faum khleukh-ni. Eshet it eksei tet chu uni it shakheit tsu
meikh trefilati teikh apf asa-chi khleukh ul pi khansheita shtrana ten atauti.
Tin naut ujni it plau es chaut es chi it khen, pats ti mau chi it plau, ti
mau khlaus trefilati fault asa-chi khleukh eraunt chi; en ets lausht naut
ujni it keif apf etimti.
Tin shani chein aut faum, en eimitchits trefilati teikh apf asa-chi khleukh.
En shau naut ujni emit aplish tsu khanfish tet shani it pi shtranati af eshet.
Translation:
The north wind and the sun were disputing which would be stronger, when a
traveller came along wrapped in a warm cloak. They agreed that who first
succeeded to make the traveller take off his cloak will be considered
stronger than the other.
Then the north wind blew as hard as he could, but the more he blew, the more
closely the traveller folded his cloak around him; and at last the north
wind gave up the attempt.
Then the sun shone out warmly, and immediately the traveller took off his
cloak. And so the north wind was obliged to confess that the sun was the
stronger of them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:53:40 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Quoting Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andreas Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > I've not read the SciAm article, but it seems to be generally thought that
> > floresiensis was an erectus offshoot, not a sapiens one.
> >
> > Andreas
>
> IIRC, the Scientific American article supports the idea that Floresiensis is
> from Sapiens, and shows dwarfism. It exhibits the skull features. Its main
> point is that island species tend to exhibit either gigantism or dwarfism
> for purposes of survival and they give examples with the dwarf elephant and
> the giant rat. I'm not saying I believe it (back to doubt, again!) but this
> was the thrust of the essay.
What issue is it? I should be able to check it out in the uni library tomorrow.
Andreas
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:08:35 EST
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Piraha, was Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
In a message dated 2/17/2005 12:10:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>There is a tradition of such hoaxes, which usually concern some kind
>of "discovery" that challenges a well-established assumption of the
>discipline in question (this time, the linguistic uniformitarian
>principle). I have seen several such hoaxes; the Pirahã matter
>looks like another one of those.
When yu say it's a hoax, are you suggesting that the linguist Dan Everett is
hoaxing us, or that the Piraha are hoaxing him?
Doug
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:50:06 +0000
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
Does anyone here know of a group dedicated to
increasing the number of strong or ablauted verbs in
English?
I posted a thread at Zompist.com trying to regularise
and put English irregular verbs in ablaut or strong
classes, and in doing so, expand those classes.
However my cries have fallen on deaf ears (I believe
some of the other folks there just simply do not "get"
what I am about).
So yeah, it is eccentric, it is mad, but has anyone
else attempted this, in a state of attempting this, or
know of any noble efforts to do such a thing? If so, I
would be mightily greatful in hearing about it.
I am searching ever online, but was moved to make the
thread at Zompist, and then post here, because my
efforts have not really yielded much.
Thank you for any replies, and feel free to contact me
off list re: this if you please.
Cheers,
Bryan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams.
-- William Butler Yeats
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:13 EST
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: affixes
In a message dated 2/17/2005 12:44:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>The word you are looking for is "oligosynthetic". And the claim that
>Nahuatl is oligosynthetic is utterly false.
Are there any oligosynthetic natural languages?
Doug
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:20:57 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
I have never heard of such a thing, but I think it's a marvelous idea.
Where shall we start? bring/brang/brung? :)
-Marcos
On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 11:50:06PM +0000, Bryan Parry wrote:
> Does anyone here know of a group dedicated to
> increasing the number of strong or ablauted verbs in
> English?
>
> I posted a thread at Zompist.com trying to regularise
> and put English irregular verbs in ablaut or strong
> classes, and in doing so, expand those classes.
> However my cries have fallen on deaf ears (I believe
> some of the other folks there just simply do not "get"
> what I am about).
>
> So yeah, it is eccentric, it is mad, but has anyone
> else attempted this, in a state of attempting this, or
> know of any noble efforts to do such a thing? If so, I
> would be mightily greatful in hearing about it.
>
> I am searching ever online, but was moved to make the
> thread at Zompist, and then post here, because my
> efforts have not really yielded much.
>
> Thank you for any replies, and feel free to contact me
> off list re: this if you please.
>
> Cheers,
> Bryan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> =====
> I have spread my dreams under your feet;
> Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams.
>
> -- William Butler Yeats
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:34:26 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
Bryan Parry wrote at 2005-02-17 23:50:06 (+0000)
> Does anyone here know of a group dedicated to
> increasing the number of strong or ablauted verbs in
> English?
>
> I posted a thread at Zompist.com trying to regularise
> and put English irregular verbs in ablaut or strong
> classes, and in doing so, expand those classes.
> However my cries have fallen on deaf ears (I believe
> some of the other folks there just simply do not "get"
> what I am about).
>
> So yeah, it is eccentric, it is mad, but has anyone
> else attempted this, in a state of attempting this, or
> know of any noble efforts to do such a thing? If so, I
> would be mightily greatful in hearing about it.
>
I don't know of anyone doing this in English. However, below is the
website (in German) of the _Gesellschaft zur Stärkung der Verben_
"Society for the Strengthening of Verbs", who appear to be of like
mind to you:
http://www.soviseau.de/verben/
I don't actually speak German, but I see they have a page of English
verbs:
http://www.soviseau.de/verben/en.htm
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:55:56 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
On 18 Feb 2005, at 11.20 am, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> I have never heard of such a thing, but I think it's a marvelous idea.
> Where shall we start? bring/brang/brung? :)
Dive/dove/diven :) Type/tope/typpen. Increase/incrose/incrosen. This is
fun!
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 11:50:06PM +0000, Bryan Parry wrote:
BTW, Brian, when you start a new thread on mailing lists, it's a good
idea to use the New button rather than the Reply function. Replying
does more than just copying the message text with > and giving you a
subject; it also adds various headers to the mail so that mailers can
track threads even between subject header changes. Many people will
have a throden :) message list, and this email came up as a subthread
of 'Piraha, was Re: Introducing myself, and several questions' (by
Amateur [EMAIL PROTECTED]) for me, rather than as a top-level. If I (or
someone else) was ununterest in the Piraha thread, we might've missen
this one.
>> Does anyone here know of a group dedicated to
>> increasing the number of strong or ablauted verbs in
>> English?
No I haven't. It seems an odd thing to do---but it's fun! :)
>> I posted a thread at Zompist.com trying to regularise
>> and put English irregular verbs in ablaut or strong
>> classes, and in doing so, expand those classes.
>> However my cries have fallen on deaf ears (I believe
>> some of the other folks there just simply do not "get"
>> what I am about).
Well... With my words, here is a grouping... Obviously I've not used
that many classes, so I've tried to create a few extras I didn't use
above. Irregular verbs marked with asterisks. Sometimes I might be
wrong, I'm trying to extrapolate from a table of OE classes so they're
guessesish.
I. to Dive (dove, diven); to Type; to Miss
IIa. to Lose (loase, loasen)
IIb.
IIIa. to Interest (anterest, unterest); to Bring
IIIb. to Tell (teal, toln)
IIIc. to Care (core, corn)
IV. (presumably merges with VI, as steal~stole~stolen (IV) vs
OE bacan~boc~bacen > *bake~*boke~*boken (VI)
IVb. to Time (tame, toumen)
V. (presumably merges with VI, as speak~spoke~spoken (V))
VI. to Increase (incroase, incroasen); to Thread* /Tred/ not /TrIid/
VIIa. to Wait (weet, waiten)
VIIb. to Snow (snew, snown), to Show
>> So yeah, it is eccentric, it is mad,
Which differs from anything else how :)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:57:19 +0000
From: Bryan Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Strong Verb/Ablauted Verb" Society?
Nor do I speak German, but those links seem very
useful. Cheers muchly.
--- Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bryan Parry wrote at 2005-02-17 23:50:06 (+0000)
> > Does anyone here know of a group dedicated to
> > increasing the number of strong or ablauted verbs
> in
> > English?
> >
> > I posted a thread at Zompist.com trying to
> regularise
> > and put English irregular verbs in ablaut or
> strong
> > classes, and in doing so, expand those classes.
> > However my cries have fallen on deaf ears (I
> believe
> > some of the other folks there just simply do not
> "get"
> > what I am about).
> >
> > So yeah, it is eccentric, it is mad, but has
> anyone
> > else attempted this, in a state of attempting
> this, or
> > know of any noble efforts to do such a thing? If
> so, I
> > would be mightily greatful in hearing about it.
> >
>
> I don't know of anyone doing this in English.
> However, below is the
> website (in German) of the _Gesellschaft zur
> Stärkung der Verben_
> "Society for the Strengthening of Verbs", who appear
> to be of like
> mind to you:
>
> http://www.soviseau.de/verben/
>
> I don't actually speak German, but I see they have a
> page of English
> verbs:
>
> http://www.soviseau.de/verben/en.htm
>
=====
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams.
-- William Butler Yeats
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