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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: A (Long) First Text in Costanice
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
From: Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Line in Oldvak
From: Joe Fatula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
From: Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Tricky translations
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: TECH: Sound Change program
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. META: Digest #102/2005 missing, anyone?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
From: Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:15:15 -0500
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A (Long) First Text in Costanice
> >>
> >> TON EVANGELLO CADA MARCO
> >>
> >> Ten arje ton evangellos to Iesus Xristos Ios to Zeos: Zues sti
> >> grÃsanon en ten Ãseye profiede:
> >> "EÃ, postelo to mà angelo pro to sà prosuebo,
> >> tudon o cadastÃvase te sà odo
> >> Fuene to cleyontos en ten erieme,
> >> "Etimaste ten odon to cirios,
> >> poyÃd ozÃos tos tà caminos."
> >>
> >> [...]
> >
> > Welcome back, Jesse, we have been missing you!
>
> Amen.
Thanks to everyone's welcome and compliments! It's good to be back,
and I'm finding the list less chatty than it was last time I was here,
which is good. And gmail makes reading the list a breeze... by far the
best e-mail program I've ever used.
> Certainly interesting - from what I can see, Costanice seems to contain
> some archaic features lost over the other side of the Med in Greece &
> neighboring dialects, e.g. the preposition _en_ survives (replaced by 'es'
> elsewhere) and, indeed, final -n obviously survived better here :)
Most of those final n's are actually epenthetic. Final /n/ was lost in
Costanice, just as in *here*'s Greek, but Costanice abhors hiatus at
word-boundaries and so kept the n's where the following word begins
with a vowel. Then that /n/ was generalized to words that originally
had no /n/ at all, becoming a general epenthetic consonant.
I want to finish the text I'm translating right now, and then I'll get
around to posting some phonology and grammar to the list
> I must confess I haven't tried to pick apart the grammar in detail, but it
> seems to retain present participle with adjectival endings unlike modern
> Greek, where it has become an indeclinable gerund. Interesting.
Absolutely. There are active and passive particles, used adjectivally
and in constructing the perfect tenses.
> It seems that eta survives as |e| in Costanice; it was [e:] at the end of
> the Republic & in the early Empire, but appears to have changed to [i]
> sometime between the 2nd & 3rd centuries CE in mainstream Koine. I guess
> the Greek speaking enclave in Spain got separated from their eastern
> cousins relatively early on.
Eta actually does merge with /i/ in final positions, but later changes
turned those i's back into e's. It is true, however, that eta remained
distinct for longer, and didn't otherwise develop the way Greek eta
did *here*.
> I assume one should read the letters in the Castilian manner (e.g. z = /T/
> ) so I was bit surprised by Xristos. Is the initial |x| to be pronounced
> [x]?
|x| is indeed [x]. After waffling several times, I decided to go back
to my original idea and make |x|, not |j|, the default spelling for
/x/, so the first line should be (for example) _ten arxe_ rather than
_ten arje_. The reasons have to do with the history of Nea Illenicia
in IB, which I don't wish to go into here. The only exception to the
rule of pronouncing like Spanish is |c|, which becomes [tS], not [T],
before a front vowel. Pronounced this way, the text begins to sound
more Italian... which is fine. On the other hand, I'm not happy with
so many [tSe]s (spelled |ce|, from Grk _kai_) and I'm trying to think
of a reason to steal the Spanish conjunction _y_. More thinking and
writing to come.
--
JS Bangs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drink
I could tell you all about it
I could tell you why I doubted
And why I still believe."
- Pedro the Lion
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:22:12 +0200
From: Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
!!! Unicode UTF-8 !!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elliott Lash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
> You're welcome :) I really did enjoy it. And I
> realized a mistake I made in standard French
> orthography, that perhaps rivals or beats the mistakes
> in your reform orthography. I wrote: ÃcritÃ, I guess I
> got a little slap happy with my e-accent aigu. It's of
> course Ãcrit, oops.
I though that was a little reform of the grammar. Such changes have already
occured in the past centuries. Two examples come to my mind:
- tistre (â) / tissu -> tisser / tissÃ
- rÃsoudre / rÃsolu -> solutionner / solutionnÃ
==> Ãcrire / Ãcrit -> Ãcriter / ÃcritÃ
Back to my reform: I kept the "mute" final consonants because they are
required to make the feminine forms and the "liaisons". If we wrote Ãkri /
Ãkrit, the feminine would become as unpredictable in French as the plural
presently is in German: someone studying the language systematically needs
to look in a dictionary (or to ask a native) to find the right form.
For the same reason, I'd give up the tilde which I used for the nasal vowels
and use the traditionnal n instead: bon/bone.
And, although they are not pronounced in standard speech, I kept the final
e's which are still used in some "dialects" and in poetry:
Les sanglots longs
Des violons
De l'automne
Blessent mon coeur
D'une langueur
Monotone.
Tout suffocant
Et blÃme, quand
Sonne l'heure,
Je me souviens
Des jours anciens
Et je pleure;
Et je m'en vais
Au vent mauvais
Qui m'emporte
DeÃÃ, delÃ,
Pareil à la
Feuille morte.
(Verlaine)
In CXS:
lE sA~glO lo~
dE viOlo~
d@ lotOn
blEs@ mo~ k9R
dyn@ lA~g9R
mOnOtOn
tu syfokA~
e blEm@ kA~
sOn@ l9R
Z@ m@ suvjE~
dE jurz A~sjE~
e Z@ pl9R
e Z@ mA~ vE
o vA~ movE
ki mA~pORt
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
paREj a la
f9j@ mORt
(vERlEn)
In my reformed ortografi:
LÃz sanglotz longz
DÃs violonz
De l'otone
BlÃset mon kÅr
D'Ãne langÅr
Monotone.
Tut sufokant
Ãt blÃme, kant
Sone l'Åre,
Je me suvyenz
DÃs jurz ansyenz
Ãt je plÅre;
Ãt je m'an vÃz
O vant movÃz
Ki m'anporte
Desa, dela,
ParÃy à la
FÅye morte.
(VÃrlÃne)
But I'll still add the following comment: ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
JF
>
>
> --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Elliott Lash wrote:
>>
>> > > >Il y est assis -> Il i ÃÂt asiz
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > I don't think I'd even say that sentence I'd
>> > > probably say "Il est assis lÃ"
>> > >
>> > > ietasilà /jetasilA/
>> >
>> >Both sound good to me (but it's my second
>> language...I
>> >studied it for 7 years):
>> >
>> > 1) iliÃtasi
>> > 2) ilÃtasilÃ
>> >
>>
>> Yes, Both are good I simply said that /iljEtasi/
>> sounds unnatural in my
>> dialect but I'd understand like everybody else'd do
>>
>> > > >Il est mangÃÂ -> Il ÃÂt mÃÂjÃÂ
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > jemÃje /jema~Ze/
>> >
>> >I'd say: ilÃmÃje
>> > (I think that you meant to write: iemÃje)
>> >
>>
>> Yes, sorry, when X-Sampa's phonetic becomes as
>> natural to write as my normal
>> writing, I don't always think of "i" when it will
>> sound /j/
>>
>> > > >Parlez franÃÂais -> ParlÃÂz frÃÂsÃÂz
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > parle frÃsà /parle fRa~sE/
>> >
>> >I'd say what you say, basically, although I'd have
>> /R/
>> >in /parle/ too.
>> >
>>
>> Yes.. Let's say it's the opposite of my last
>> mistake: my method overtook
>> X-Sampa here..
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > > là paraplyi ie vÃr /l@ paRaplHi je vER/
>> >
>> >Hm, same except I'd probably have /E/ for your /ie/
>> >Also, if I were doing this I might stick the
>> article
>> >on as a prefix, like in Creol. So it'd be:
>> lÃparaplyi
>> >
>>
>> Yes I should, to keep it really polysynthetic
>>
>> > > >Monsieur Staline est-il Russe? -> MÃ"siÃ"
>> Staline
>> > > ÃÂt il RÃÂse?
>> >
>> > > mÃsià Stalin ie-ty rus? /m2sj2 stalin je ty Rys/
>> >
>> >Hm, same except for Ã-ti /Eti/ for your ie-ty.
>> Also,
>> >how come you write /y/ both _y_ and _u_ in this
>> >example. I'd think it would be _y_ in both cases.
>> >
>>
>> Sure, What a varition in mistakes I made! Now
>> neither my method nor X-Sampa
>> overtook but now it's my natural writing that passed
>> in front..
>>
>> [...]
>> > ~ Elliott.
>>
>> Thanks for these observations
>>
>> - Max
>>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Make Yahoo! your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:43:32 -0700
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Hey all,
This is a chatty thread I'm starting, but it is on topic (i.e., about
conlangs), so I thought it was all right.
I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of the Sheli poem
into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after pasting his link in,
that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language as "Ahyan".
Why? Because that's actually how I'd been *pronouncing* it
(in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I actually mispronounce
a lot of conlang names, I've noticed. Here's a short list (and
feel free to add) in alphabetical order:
-amman Ãar: It wasn't until I read the section on phonology in
David Bell's reference grammar that I learned that the circumflex
over the "i" meant that you should pronounce the vowel like a
consonant, rather than you should pronounce the vowel *separately*
(as with a diaresis in French). For that reason, this language is
most saliently pronounced by as ['A.mAn i.'Ar], where the last
word has two syllables, like "Eeyore", the lovable donkey. It
should, of course, be ['jAr] (in my anglophone pronunciation).
-Ayhan: Every time I see this word, I guess I *want* to pronounce
a coda [h], because I always seem to pronounce it ['Ah.jAn],
unintentionally
metathesizing the "y" and the "h" (which I assumed, of course,
were pronounced as [j] and [h], respectively, but which may
not be the case. I'd actually go and check, but it looks like Yahoo
Geocities is down, for some reason...).
-Brithenig: I didn't recognize the relationship with "Britain" for a
long time, and also did know the purpose of the language for awhile,
so for some reason I always pronounced it as ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Fith: A classic case of hypercorrection (wait... hypo?). I often
pronounce the English word "fifth" without a coda [f], but sometimes
I make a concerted effort to put it in there. As a result, I sometimes
find myself saying (and spelling!) Fith with an extra "f".
-Kangathyagon: Sorry, but I can't do the thorn. And also, my
e-mail program always makes the thorn *really* small, or sometimes
doesn't even print it at all. For that reason, I pay special attention
to it, and so seem to regularly forget the first "g", pronouncing it
something like [ka.na.Tan.'[EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone's guess where the "n"
coda comes from.
-Miapimoquitch: "Tepa" was a whole lot simpler. I did something
strange to this name, pronouncing it something like, [mi.'[EMAIL PROTECTED],
but sometimes without the coda [m], and sometimes (possibly under
the influence of the Simpsons), as [mi.'[EMAIL PROTECTED]@.kwItS].
-Minyeva: This is a really bizarre one. I think because I often confuse
the name with Jeffrey Henning's Minhyan (and probably also because
the "-n" suffix is so easy in English), I frequently pronounce this name
with an "n" on the end of it. (Hope I've never spelled it that way!)
-Rokbeigalmki: Whenever I see that many consonants, my head
kind of starts swimming, so I stopped at "rokbei", and then kind
of made up my own name, [rAg.bA.'jA.ni]. I've *always* pronounced
it that way (in my head), and it wasn't until a few months ago
when I actually looked at the spelling and said to myself, "Man,
I was *way* off!"
-Teonaht: I think I might be forgiven for mispronouncing this
one, since it's never obvious if a language spelling you see is
in an invented romanization, or is trying to stick to something
like the IPA. For that reason, I didn't know for a long time
that "ht" was pronounced [T] (and I also didn't know that
Teonaht was a language, for a long time, rather than the
full name of H. S. Teoh (!!!). For that, I *shouldn't* be forgiven).
As a result, Teonaht has always rhymed with "astronaut",
but with ['te.jo] in place of ['&s.tro]. Anyway, though, I thought
it was cool: Like this language is a rocketship through your
linguistic solar system.
Those are all the ones that occur to me, though there may be
others. I sincerely apologize to the authors, though, and I
should let you know that when I figure out that I've been
pronouncing a language incorrectly, I tried to go and emend
my mental dictionary, so that I pronounce it right in my head
from then on.
Well, except for Zhyler, since I created it. That will always be
['Zi.lr=] in my head, rather than the correct, [ZY.'ler].
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:57:11 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On 4/12/05, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hey all,
>
> This is a chatty thread I'm starting, but it is on topic (i.e., about
> conlangs), so I thought it was all right.
>
> I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of the Sheli poem
> into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after pasting his link in,
> that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language as "Ahyan".
> Why? Because that's actually how I'd been *pronouncing* it
> (in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I actually mispronounce
> a lot of conlang names, I've noticed. Here's a short list (and
> feel free to add) in alphabetical order:
>
How funny, I might have to include "ahyan" in there somewhere as
something. Maybe "humor"? (the pattern certainly fits, as you can have
/a'hjan/) (although the syllable falls on the ultimate, instead).
> -amman Ãar:
You know, I sheepishly admit until now, I pronounce it as /aman iar/
>
> -Brithenig: I didn't recognize the relationship with "Britain" for a
> long time, and also did know the purpose of the language for awhile,
> so for some reason I always pronounced it as ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My pronunciation was /'brITEnIg/
>
> -Fith:
I pronounce it as /fIT/, although the first time I saw it, I saw it as
"filth". Sorry.
>
> -Teonaht:
I've always pronounced this one as /'teo:nAt/
> Well, except for Zhyler, since I created it. That will always be
> ['Zi.lr=] in my head, rather than the correct, [ZY.'ler].
I guess turnabout it fair play, because this always looked like
/'Zajlr=/ (well, more or less)
--
They'll have a big parade for every day that you stay clean
But when the trumpets fade, you'll go under like a submarine
And you won't see it coming, no you won't see it coming
You could have it made up there in San Rafael
But baby I'm afraid i'll never see you well
because i've seen the tally
you're just going through the motions, baby
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 00:19:14 -0700
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Barry wrote:
<<
How funny, I might have to include "ahyan" in there somewhere as
something. Maybe "humor"? (the pattern certainly fits, as you can have
/a'hjan/) (although the syllable falls on the ultimate, instead).
>>
and also...
<<
I guess turnabout it fair play, because [Zhyler] always looked like
/'Zajlr=/ (well, more or less)
>>
And, as it would turn out, the form "zhayler" [Zaj.ler] is also
possible in Zhyler. I think it definitely has to be a word. Hee,
hee... I like how puns and misunderstandings on the ol'
CONLANG-L can spawn vocabulary items. ;)
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:20:25 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
David J. Peterson skrev:
> Hey all,
>
> This is a chatty thread I'm starting, but it is on topic (i.e., about
> conlangs), so I thought it was all right.
>
> I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of the Sheli poem
> into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after pasting his link in,
> that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language as "Ahyan".
> Why? Because that's actually how I'd been *pronouncing* it
> (in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I actually mispronounce
> a lot of conlang names, I've noticed. Here's a short list (and
> feel free to add) in alphabetical order:
So what do you make of:
Sohlob
Kejeb
Kidilib
MÃrik
Slvanjec
Since I've posted the translations in the past looking in
the archive is cheating!
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:26:42 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
Jean-FranÃois Colson skrev:
> Ãt je m'an vÃz
> O vant movÃz
> Ki m'anporte
> Desa, dela,
> ParÃy à la
> FÅye morte.
>
> (VÃrlÃne)
>
My Esperantist French and Latin teacher
(who must have been much happier teaching
me Latin than French) had his own reform
proposal. I don't remember the details,
but he had à à à à for the nasalized vowels!
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 00:33:13 -0700
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Benct wrote:
<<
So what do you make of:
Sohlob
Kejeb
Kidilib
MÃrik
Slvanjec
>>
I only ever remember seeing three of these, and for those I have
home pronunciations (we'll see how close I get):
(1) Sohlob: Seen it a lot, and, again, because I like that coda [h],
I tend to pronounce it ['soh.lob]--pretty much just like it looks.
(2) Kejeb: This I would pronounce ['ke.jeb], but I know that can
be trouble, as the "j" in my "Njaama" is actually [dZ].
(3) Kidilib: This is the first time I've seen this, but I have a feeling
that if I encountered it in the wild, I might pronounce it like
['kId.lIb].
It'd probably be a bit before I saw that middle "i". I'm actually
paying attention to the spelling now, though, so I'd guess it'd
be like it looks: ['ki.di.lib].
(4) MÃrik: I always kind of Englishly pronounced this ['m&.rIk].
(I notice I tend to do a lot of initial stress... I wonder why that
is?)
(5) Slvanjec: Way off. I always pronounce this like the word
"Slavonic",
though it should probably be something like [sl=.'va.JEk], right?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:38:46 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
Jean-FranÃois Colson wrote:
> !!! Unicode UTF-8 !!!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elliott Lash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
>
>
>> You're welcome :) I really did enjoy it. And I
>> realized a mistake I made in standard French
>> orthography, that perhaps rivals or beats the mistakes
>> in your reform orthography. I wrote: ÃcritÃ, I guess I
>> got a little slap happy with my e-accent aigu. It's of
>> course Ãcrit, oops.
>
>
> I though that was a little reform of the grammar. Such changes have
> already
> occured in the past centuries. Two examples come to my mind:
> - tistre (â) / tissu -> tisser / tissÃ
> - rÃsoudre / rÃsolu -> solutionner / solutionnÃ
> ==> Ãcrire / Ãcrit -> Ãcriter / ÃcritÃ
>
> Back to my reform: I kept the "mute" final consonants because they are
> required to make the feminine forms and the "liaisons". If we wrote
> Ãkri /
> Ãkrit, the feminine would become as unpredictable in French as the plural
> presently is in German: someone studying the language systematically
> needs
> to look in a dictionary (or to ask a native) to find the right form.
You could simply put the feminine form in the dictionary. That way
you'd only have a few irregular adjectives, which didn't remove the
final consonant in the masculine (before consonants).
Still, French doesn't need a massive reform. Its pronunciation is
largely predictable from its spelling. But I would like the word 'fils'
to be spelt 'fisse'. Am I right in thinking that 'fils' is one of the
few nouns that comes from the direct (rather than the oblique) case in
French?
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:11:06 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
David J. Peterson skrev:
> Benct wrote:
> <<
> So what do you make of:
>
> Sohlob
> Kejeb
> Kidilib
> MÃrik
> Slvanjec
> >>
>
> I only ever remember seeing three of these, and for those I have
> home pronunciations (we'll see how close I get):
>
> (1) Sohlob: Seen it a lot, and, again, because I like that coda [h],
> I tend to pronounce it ['soh.lob]--pretty much just like it looks.
Yes pretty much, tho it's actually [sQ'KQb_0].
>
> (2) Kejeb: This I would pronounce ['ke.jeb], but I know that can
> be trouble, as the "j" in my "Njaama" is actually [dZ].
[ki\'dz\i\b_0] or with [dZ] instead of [dz\].
The alternative romanization is _Kedjeb_.
>
> (3) Kidilib: This is the first time I've seen this, but I have a feeling
> that if I encountered it in the wild, I might pronounce it like
> ['kId.lIb].
> It'd probably be a bit before I saw that middle "i". I'm actually
> paying attention to the spelling now, though, so I'd guess it'd
> be like it looks: ['ki.di.lib].
Spot on, except that in isolation the stress is final and the |b|
voiceless.
> (4) MÃrik: I always kind of Englishly pronounced this ['m&.rIk].
Right, except the |Ã| is [&:] for me.
> (I notice I tend to do a lot of initial stress... I wonder why that
> is?)
Probably because that's the general English pattern.
Sohlob and dialects shamelessly follow the traditional
Swedish pattern of final stress in "foreign" words.
>
> (5) Slvanjec: Way off. I always pronounce this like the word
> "Slavonic",
> though it should probably be something like [sl=.'va.JEk], right?
>
['sl=.va.Jets]
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:18:08 -0400
From: Joe Fatula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Line in Oldvak
For your amusement, a line in Oldvak from an explanation of the form of the
world.
Zilde yizmen aldzul atdzurashoa shalan.
"The shining stars turn about the world-azle"
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:18:04 +1200
From: andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 18:57, B. Garcia wrote:
> > -Brithenig: I didn't recognize the relationship with "Britain" for
> > a long time, and also did know the purpose of the language for
> > awhile, so for some reason I always pronounced it as ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> My pronunciation was /'brITEnIg/
>
this is how I would pronounce it, although the stress should be on the
final syllable, /brITE'nIg/.
Â
- andrew.
--
Andrew Smith Â-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Â-- Â
http://hobbit.griffler.co.nz/homepage.html
catar-le 'alat de`ol
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:27:57 +0200
From: Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
> You could simply put the feminine form in the dictionary. That way
> you'd only have a few irregular adjectives, which didn't remove the
> final consonant in the masculine (before consonants).
But there's also the problem of the "liaison": |un grand homme| is
pronounced /9~ gRA~t Om/ whereas |un homme grand| is pronounced /9~n Om
gRA~/. Therefore you'd need to put three forms in the dictionary.
But even in the standard orthography there are some irregular feminines:
favori/favorite, dissous/ dissoute etc.
>
> Still, French doesn't need a massive reform. Its pronunciation is
> largely predictable from its spelling.
But the spelling is not predictable at all from the pronunciation. That's
the starting point of most of the more serious reform proposals. I'd
appreciate a reform based on the IPA, but the one I proposed is a little
exaggerated.
> But I would like the word 'fils'
> to be spelt 'fisse'. Am I right in thinking that 'fils' is one of the
> few nouns that comes from the direct (rather than the oblique) case in
> French?
Perhaps. That's filus without the u.
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:01:04 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Hi!
"David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> a lot of conlang names, I've noticed. Here's a short list (and
> feel free to add) in alphabetical order:
Do you also have a nice mispronunciation of Qthyn|gai? :-)
> -amman Ãar:
>...
> most saliently pronounced by as ['A.mAn i.'Ar], where the last
>...
I did worse: [?a'mam ?i'jar]...
> -Brithenig: ...
Embarrasingly: ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -Kangathyagon: ...
I had no pronunciation at all for that before actually looking it up.
And then, I think I got it right. :-)
> -Miapimoquitch: ...
Same: no pronunciation before finding out the right way to say it.
> -Minyeva: ...
= Minerva. :-)
> -Rokbeigalmki: ...
No problem at all.
> -Teonaht: ...
Similar to yours: ['te.o.nat]. Forgive me.
**Henrik
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:15:16 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:10:06 -0400, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>/i/ = i
>/y/ = y
>/u/ = u
>/e/ = e
>/E/ = Ã (e`)
>/2/ = Ã (oÂ)
>/9/ = Ã (oÂ)
>/a/ = a
>/A/ = Ã (a^)
>/O/ = o
>/o/ = Ã (o^)
>/@/ = Ã
>/a~/ = Ã (a~)
>/e~/ = ẽ (e~)
>/o~/ = Ã (o~)
>/2~/ = ũ (u~)
That's a very intuitive system! I sometimes use a much less intuitive
transcription system that has certain similarities to Welsh spelling. It may
be written without any diacritics:
/i, j/: i
/e/: Ã or ee
/E/: e
/E~/: e~ or en/em*
/y, H/: y
/2/: Ã or uu
/9/: u
/9~/: u~ or un/um*
/u, w/: w
/o/: Ã or oo
/O/: o
/O~/: o~ or on/om*
/a/: a
/A/: Ã or aa
/A~/: a~ or an/am*
Notes:
If the nasalized vowels are written with following n/m, then final /n/ needs
to be written with _nn_, e.g. _bon_ ('bon') vs. _bonn_ ('bonne').
The weak schwa vowel is not transcribed because its occurence is
predictable. If required (in poetry), it may be transcribed as if it were /9/.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:30:56 GMT
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
-- "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-Rokbeigalmki: Whenever I see that many consonants, my head
kind of starts swimming, so I stopped at "rokbei", and then kind
of made up my own name, [rAg.bA.'jA.ni]. I've *always* pronounced
it that way (in my head), and it wasn't until a few months ago
when I actually looked at the spelling and said to myself, "Man,
I was *way* off!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm so proud! ;)
You could just shorten it like my brother does, and call it "Rokbei" or
"Rokvei" [rok(b/v)ej].
Rokbeigalmki is meant to be pronounced [rokbej'galm(=)ki], (with optional
syllabicness of the /m/) btw.
"*Ragbayani" looks cool though... maybe i'll make it a word in Rokbeigalmki,
meaning "mistake in reading" or something :) ... or use it as the last name of
an RPG character!
I'm frightened to find out how people've been pronouncing the name of my first
conlang (made with my brother), _ool-Nuziiferoi_ 8-O ;-) !
-Stephen (Steg)
"here in this transport
i am eve
with abel my son
if you see my older son
cain son of man
tell him that i"
~ dan pagis, 'written in pencil in the sealed freightcar'
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:12:55 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:07, Tim May wrote:
> Roger Mills wrote at 2005-03-31 15:09:26 (-0500)
>
> > H.S. Teoh et al. wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > You mean the pre-colonial Amerindian cultures don't know the
> > > wheel? That's interesting.
> >
> > Apparently not. Bear in mind, until the horse was brought in by the
> > Spaniards, there were no adequate beasts of burden. (Dogs and
> > people can't pull much; llamas are difficult, plus an Andean
> > mountainside isn't someplace you'd want to be in a wheeled
> > vehicle....). Mexican/Mayan cultures, maybe-- IIRC ceramic wheeled
> > toys (or miniature models?) have been found.
>
> Yeah, you can see some of them here[1][2]. I've been unable to
> determine with any confidence the distribution of these finds in time
> and space - CihuatÃn is a late classic Maya site in El Salvador.
>
>
> Wesley Parish wrote at 2005-04-01 20:54:37 (+1200)
>
> > It seems to have been related to the development of smelting.
> > Stone Age peoples like the pre-colonial Americans never got that
> > far.
>
> That seems an odd conclusion to draw. Do you have any particular
> causal relationship in mind? AFAIK the correlation holds, but the
> wheel's only been independently discovered perhaps three times in
> human history.
Woodworking tools to work the wood to the tolerances needed for an axle, and
to connect the wheel to the axle. It's the same with building planked ships.
If the wood can't be worked to fit closely enough, then you are not going to
be able to build much larger than canoe size - although the Austronesians
_did_ make the world's largest and most seaworthy canoes.
>
> I'm inclined to think that the abscence of adequate draught animals
> was the main factor. (This introduction to a paper on wheeled
> vehicles in Bronze Age China [3] suggests four conditions for
> development of the wheel - draught animals, timber supply, woodworking
> skill and amenable terrain. I suppose smelting, and metal tools,
> would have some bearing on woodworking.)
That's a given. Stone tools are great - don't get me wrong there! - but they
are not suitable for the tolerances needed to fit something tightly together.
And it also has a bearing on the timber supply - stone tools can only supply
in low quantity. Metal tools can cut a greater quantity with the same amount
of effort. And that is also connected to smelting - smelting takes one heck
of a lot of wood.
Also, nails - one of the greatest inventions in all of history. Without
nails, you're restricted to laboriously drilling holes in wood and then
binding with rope (the Austronesian method of building ocean-going canoes.).
With nails, all you need to do is belt it into the wood and it will hold the
wood together. It allows for an extra magnitude of scale.
And then, Piggott's prerequisite of "heat bending" - that is
metallurgy-dependent. You can't bend wood over anything other than a worked
piece of metal - holding it over a naked flame will set it alight or
smoldering, and stone doesn't hold enough heat or transmit it quickly enough
to affect the fibres in any other way than light charring. A metal rod or
bowl does the job.
>
> Still, it's interesting. You'd think any society with sedentary
> farmers would benefit from a wheelbarrow, but I guess it's just not
> that obvious.
>
>
> [1] http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kbruhns/cihuatan/toy.htm
> [2] http://www.delange.org/Jalapa2/Jalapa2.htm
> [3] http://spp.pinyin.info/abstracts/spp099_wheeled_vehicles.html
Wesley Parish
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:39:40 +0100
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tricky translations
On 1/17/05, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The EbisÃdi live in the Ferochromon. The Ferochromon is a radically
> different universe from ours---different rules of physics, completely
> different structure, and completely different phenomena. The only
> familiar thing is that the EbisÃdi themselves are (more or less) human
> manifestations in the Ferochromon, and that, at least where the
> EbisÃdi live, there is a superficial resemblance to Earth. (But it is
> only superficial.)
>
> And the consequence of this? *Nothing* may be assumed about the
> Ferochromon without knowing it yourself. One of the most famous
> features of the Ferochromon is that there are no such things as stars.
> The closest phenomenon is the _Ka'l3ri_, which is more like a
> starburst or supernova than a star. However, the same phenomenon on a
> smaller scale also manifests itself as fountains or volcanoes. How
> _Ka'l3ri_ ought to be translated depends on the context.
>
> Another feature of the Ferochromon is that there is no such thing as
> water. There are liquids, for sure, but no equivalent of clear,
> translucent water. (Watch this one screw up a relay, it has a lot of
> potential. :-P) Also, there is no unique "Earth" on which the EbisÃdi
> dwell. Instead, there is a plethora of "landmasses", floating
> continents of diverse shapes and sizes that fill the three realms (a
> "realm" in this context is 3D inhabitable space).
>
> Also, the concept of "food" is radically different from the Terran
> understanding... all matter can be eaten, provided it is in the right
> form and in the right energy level. The fiery hot matter ejected from
> a _Ka'l3ri_, once cooled down, can be enjoyed as a delicious meal. But
> you would not want to stand in the plasma rain with your mouth open as
> it descends upon the landmass, since you'd burn yourself VERY badly.
> It must be cooled down sufficiently to safe energy levels, and then
> collected and processed into forms suitable for consumption. However,
> it must not be left too long, as otherwise it degrades to energy
> levels too low to be of any use, and also crystallizes into rocky,
> indigestible forms.
>
> Oh, and there is no such thing as "air" in Ferochromon. Space *is*
> air... you breathe space in Ferochromon just as you breath air on
> Earth. Not many people will die of suffocation unless they drown in
> liquid (space occupied by matter is unbreathable) or get buried alive.
> However, there *are* equivalents of winds: transmittent fields of
> force which propel anything within range, thereby causing the
> equivalent of winds.
>
> Need I go on? Just about *anything* in language that describes the
> physical world cannot be assumed to have an equivalent in EbisÃdian,
> because the universe it is spoken in is so different that almost none
> of these assumptions would hold.
>
> (And mind you, what I've described so far only covers the 3D
> inhabitable section of the Ferochromon... there are other sections
> where things behave in yet other radically different ways.)
Could you mail me any notes you have on FC Physics? (Either to
CONLANG, or to ConCult(ure), or personally, or on your site) I have a
few ideas on how to put actual *equations* to it (something
Aristotelean).
Thanks,
Simon
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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:39:12 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
----- Original Message -----
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:20 am
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
> So what do you make of:
>
> Sohlob
so_0'lob
> Kejeb
'kE.jeb
> Kidilib
'kIdIlIb
> MÃrik
'm&rIk
> Slvanjec
I always manage to get /'slavaJ_jek/ but I bet it's /sl='vaJ_jek/
Paul
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:44:12 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:43 am
Subject: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
> Ayhan
Vj_0an
> -amman Ãar:
&[EMAIL PROTECTED] i:A
> -Brithenig:
'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -Fith:
fIT
> -Kangathyagon:
kaN'gaT.jaN.gon
> -Miapimoquitch:
mi@'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -Minyeva:
mInjeva
> -Rokbeigalmki:
r\Qk.bAj.ga:o_^m.ki
> -Teonaht:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Well, except for Zhyler, since I created it. That will always be
> ['Zi.lr=] in my head, rather than the correct, [ZY.'ler].
ZAjl@
Paul
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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:42:28 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: Sound Change program
On Tuesday 12 April 2005 22:34 CEST, Paul Bennett wrote:
> $C > $Ch / _$V+h
> h > $0 / $Ch$V+_
BTW, what would be the rule to insert [delete] a stop after
a nasal of the same POA as the nasal? I mean something like
n/nd/_[+front] or vice versa. Just more general,
[+nasal]/[+nasal][+stop_with_same_POA]/_[+front].
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea eibenem ena Bahis
Palayena, 15-A8-58-1-3-1A-1A ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:44:09 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: META: Digest #102/2005 missing, anyone?
All Ye Digeste Subbescribers!
Could someone please be so kind to send/forward me the digest
#102/2005 of this list, please? Or is there a command with
which I can get it from the server? For some reason, it
didn't make it through.
Thanks,
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena Bahis Venena,
15-A8-58-1-3-19-19 ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:54:16 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Amusing thread. Most of the (mis)pronunciations have occurred to me at one
time or another.
Accustomed to pronouncing -h in Indonesian, I tend to do the same when it
occurs in ...VhC...; so
Sohlob > ['soh.lob]
Teonaht > ['teonaht] until I heard Sally pronounce it in her long-ago radio
interview.......
Brithenig was ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] at first, then [brI'Tenig] with a strong
tendency
to devoice that final /g/; now the horse's mouth (apologies to Andrew) tells
us it's [...'nig]...but why? wouldn't it have derived from [bri'tan.nicus]
or some such???
Then there are the first three words of David P's current sig---
> "A male love....*" --which always give me pause; it's somehow appropriate
> to the polymorphously perverse Mr. Morrison.
----------------------------------
(*"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison)
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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:01:20 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:20:25 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>So what do you make of:
>
>Sohlob
>Kejeb
>Kidilib
>MÃrik
>Slvanjec
["sO:lop]
["kedZ)Ep]
[ki"dilIp]
["mE:RIk]
["KvAnjEk], maybe? I haven't got an idea how to pronounce <slv>.
I've always thought of "Ayhan" straightforwardly as ["AI)hAn]. My own langs
are DalÃian [da"le:[EMAIL PROTECTED] and Ayeri /a"jeri/. I usually pronounce
the latter
[a"jeRi] in German and think of it as [@"jEr\i] in English. Actually, "r" is
thought to be [4].
Carsten
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Message: 25
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:03:59 +0200
From: Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: French reform (Re: C.Thalmann, & #1)
On Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:15 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> The weak schwa vowel is not transcribed because its occurence is
> predictable.
Not always. For example pneu is pronounced /pn2/, but many people
erroneously add a schwa: /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> If required (in poetry), it may be transcribed as if it were /9/.
It's true that /9/ and /@/ tend to merge in present French, but there are
still dialects where they are different phonemes. I have the feeling that
merging /2/ and /9/ would be less problematic, but that's perhaps because
they are often written with the same digraph: |eu|.
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