------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/TzSHvD/SOnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: [HUMOR] How many Lojbanist...
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: vocabulary
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Costanice Phonology Sketch
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Tricky translations
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: vocabulary
From: Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Costanice Phonology Sketch
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: vocabulary
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Picto & Dil
From: Holger Ebermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: vocabulary
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. past tense imperative
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Fwd: Costanice Phonology Sketch
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: vocabulary
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: past tense imperative
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: past tense imperative
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: vocabulary
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Absolute constructions
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: past tense imperative
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: vocabulary
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:23:46 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [HUMOR] How many Lojbanist...
> I don't know which makes me the bigger geek: that I
> understood the joke enough to find it funny, or that
> I found it in the first place.
Isn't that a chicken-or-egg question?
> Q: How many Lojbanists does it take to change
> a broken light bulb?
>
> A: Two. One to decide what to change it in to,
> and one to figure out what kind of bulb emits
> broken light.
> Gregg
I think I'll see how many in circle of acquaitances undstand this joke.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:15:59 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
Just some first impressions, as if seen from afar (I really can read, and do
make an effort to pronounce things correctly....)
>
> Meghean
['[EMAIL PROTECTED] my grand-niece
> Telendlest
Tenderest
> Searixina
Serafina
> Kalini Sapak
Kalini-spraak (I really did misread that once)
(From another post:>
Noygwexaal
Norwegian
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:18:50 -0400
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
Gary Shannon wrote:
>--- Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > But when I had to say what'd be the name related
> > to
> > > that root, I realise it
> > > would mean both "death" and "murder"
> > >
> > > Are there natlangs in which "murder" and "death"
> > are
> > > the same word?
> > >
> > > Prabably.. but if so, do these languages make
> > > difference between "kill" and
> > > "die" even if they don't between "murder" and
> > > "death"?
> >
> > What about "slaughter" as in killing an animal for
> > food, or "exterminate" as in killing a pestiferous
> > insect, or "execute" as in institutional killing of
> > a
> > criminal?
> >
>
>Or "sacrifice" as in killing as part of a religious
>ritual, or "suicide" as in killing one's self, or
>"Martyrdom" as in allowing one's self to be killed in
>service of a higher good.
Concerning "suicide", I don't see any reason for not using a middle voice
with the verb "to kill" there are probably not independant roots for
"suicide" in all the languages considering that much contries don't have a
high number a suicides..
For "slaughter", "exterminate", "execute", "sacrifice", and "martyrdom" I
tought I'd make independant roots
Are there really so much ways of killing? killing someone else, killing
animals, killing injurious animals/insects/plants, killing as act of law,
killing for religion, killing oneself, killing oneself for a "higher
good"...
(Out Topic question: why are there some much way to die and so less to born
and live?)
I'll keep to basic vocabulary with "kill" and "die", and if I need to, I'll
create that "death's lexicon"
- Max
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:43:38 -0500
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Costanice Phonology Sketch
As some people had requested, here's a sketch of the phonology of
Costanice. I have grammar sketches underway and an outline of the
sound changes, but those will have to wait until later.
VERY SHORT HISTORY
The various regional dialects of Koine Greek begin to break up early
into Hellenic and Byzantine groups. When the Turks sacked
Constantinople in 1452, several hundred refugees speaking Byzantine
dialects were offered shelter by the Aragonese king, and set up a
community in Barcelona. From this point on the language was heavily
influence by Spanish. About 150 years later their descendants began to
emmigrate to South America where, after some oppression and a few
failed revolutions, they eventually got their own state speaking their
offshoot of Greek, now called Costanice ( < konstantinike:).
PRONUNCIATION, THE SHORT VERSION
Pronounce everything as in Castillian Spanish, except that |c| is [tS]
before a front vowel, not [T]. [T] is always spelled |z|. Stress is
always penultimate unless marked with an accent.
(Actually, there's some difference with the vowels--see below.)
CONSONANTS
p t k
b d g
f T x
v
m n
l r
Pronunciation is basically as in Spanish. Voiced stops are spirantized
between vowels, /r/ is a trill, etc. /v/ is marginal--it only occurs
intervocalically, and for most speakers is [B], i.e. identical to
intervocalic /b/.
/k/ and /g/ before front vowels become [tS] and [x] respectively.
Unlike in Spanish, this actually creates alternations within a
paradigm: /igo/ > [iGo], /ige/ > [ixe]. (That's "house" in the
nominative and dative, respectively.)
Sounds are spelled with their phonetic symbols (including /x/), except
that /T/ is spelled |z|. /k/ and /g/ are spelled |c| and |g| even when
alternating, so |cada ce igo giro| is ['ka.Da tSe 'i.Go 'xi.ro].
VOWELS
The only vowel phones are [i u e o a]. However, there are three
morphophonemic alternations involving [e] and two involving [o]. Each
of these morphophonemes has three allophones: one when in pre-tonic
syllables, one when in tonic (stressed) syllables, and one when in
post-tonic syllables. The alternations are:
PRE TONIC POST
/e/ i e e
/e:/ e ie e
/ei/ e i e
/o/ u o o
/o:/ o ue o
The symbols given in slashes represent the etymologies of each
alternation, although synchronically that's completely arbitrary.
Here's where the spelling gets weird. The vowels /e/ and /o/ are
always spelled |e| and |o|--therefore |e| and |o| should be pronounce
[i] and [u] when they occur before the stressed syllable. The vowels
/ei/ and /e:/ in pre-tonic syllables are spelled |ê|, and /o:/ is
spelled |ô|. (That's e-circumflex and o-circumflex in case you don't
see it correctly.) Thus, for example:
docó [du'ko]
edoce [i'Do.tSe]
duego ['dwe.Go]
dôgano [do'Ga.no]
etc. I hope you get the idea.
LIASON
This is my favorite part. Costanice abhors hiatus between vowels at
word-boundaries, and always resolves it either through epenthesis or
vowel-dropping. The nice part is that this process is lexical: some
words add a consonant, others drop a vowel.
The most usual epenthetic consonant is _n_. For example:
to zruebo the person
ton igo the house
But some words add a different, lexically determined consonant, such
as _huesga(r)_ which adds an /r/:
Huesga sí because you (sg)...
Huesgar imas because you (pl)...
Other forms drop the vowel. The 2pl verbal conjugation is among these:
poyide tudo you (pl) do this
poyíd arte? you (pl) do what?
Note that the stress remains on the same syllable, so an accent mark
has to be written in the forms lacking final /e/.
Most interesting, though, is that some words alternate completely
based on liason. Most propositions and the present conjugation of _to
be_ are this way. Thus "from" is either _ap_ or _po_ depending on
whether or not the following word begins with a vowel:
po tudos from this one
ap otos from him
sti tudo It is this one.
est oto It is he.
For even more fun, these alternations can create a domino effect,
since the pre-vocalic form of the prepositions and "to be" do
themselves begin with a vowel. Eg:
Arte sti po tudos? What is from this one?
Arten est ap otos? What is from him?
--
JS Bangs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drink
I could tell you all about it
I could tell you why I doubted
And why I still believe."
- Pedro the Lion
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:56:42 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
> Tairezazh
"t_daj.rE.zaZ
> Kesheáras
kE.Sej_H.ras
> Altaii
al.ta.ji
> Meghean
mE.?in
> U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
Y."raX\ Y.na."yar.gIz-ung
> Telendlest
tE."lEnd.less
> Searixina
S&"rI.X\I.na
> Kalini Sapak
ka."li.ni "sa.pak_0
> Steienzh
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Probably all way off base. I can see that I've made my languages all
too straightforward:
Palu f'Thule
Bez Dis'z
Nenshar
Laafaah Trayis
Yinik u-Taan
Gremegr 7a7 Gwagwe7
Yæyæ Vÿrmïs
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:11:13 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tricky translations
> here are some notes about its structure and how things are
I envy your imagination.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:50:47 -0400
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:53:37 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
>
>Tairezazh
/taj.rE'zaZ/
>Kesheáras
/kE.SE.a:r.&s/
>Altaii
/al.ta'ji:/
>Meghean
/mE'Ri:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
/u: rax u: na'ja:r.gIz UN/
>Telendlest
/tE'lEnd.lESt/, strangely enough. I want to make the /s/ (presumably) be
an /S/
>Searixina
/se'a:r.I"Ti.n&/ The /T/ is probably due to Noygwexaal's oddities of
transcription.
>Kalini Sapak
/k@'li:.ni: 's&.p&k/ when I'm reading it properly. My eye rather lazily
saw /k@'li:.ni: Spr&k/ at first, though.
>Steienzh
/'staj.EnZ/
Geoff
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:57:45 -0400
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:15:59 -0400, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>(From another post:>
>Noygwexaal
>Norwegian
HA!!!
Noygwexaal's romanised orthography is deliberately odd, but it's not _that_
odd. [y] for /N/, [x] for /T/, [q] for /D/ and doubled vowels being double
length are easy enough to remember.
If you want to blame somesthing, blame my ever-present desire for one-
sound, one-symbol correspondence. :| A legacy of my speaking Kazakh as my
current L2, I suppose.
Geoff
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:43:00 +0200
From: Jean-François Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
On Friday, April 15, 2005 5:18 AM, # 1 wrote:
> Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>>--- Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> > > But when I had to say what'd be the name related
>> > to
>> > > that root, I realise it
>> > > would mean both "death" and "murder"
>> > >
>> > > Are there natlangs in which "murder" and "death"
>> > are
>> > > the same word?
>> > >
>> > > Prabably.. but if so, do these languages make
>> > > difference between "kill" and
>> > > "die" even if they don't between "murder" and
>> > > "death"?
>> >
>> > What about "slaughter" as in killing an animal for
>> > food, or "exterminate" as in killing a pestiferous
>> > insect, or "execute" as in institutional killing of
>> > a
>> > criminal?
>> >
>>
>>Or "sacrifice" as in killing as part of a religious
>>ritual, or "suicide" as in killing one's self, or
>>"Martyrdom" as in allowing one's self to be killed in
>>service of a higher good.
>
> Concerning "suicide", I don't see any reason for not using a middle voice
> with the verb "to kill" there are probably not independant roots for
> "suicide" in all the languages considering that much contries don't have a
> high number a suicides..
>
> For "slaughter", "exterminate", "execute", "sacrifice", and "martyrdom" I
> tought I'd make independant roots
>
> Are there really so much ways of killing? killing someone else, killing
> animals, killing injurious animals/insects/plants, killing as act of law,
> killing for religion, killing oneself, killing oneself for a "higher
> good"...
>
> (Out Topic question: why are there some much way to die and so less to
> born
> and live?)
>
>
> I'll keep to basic vocabulary with "kill" and "die", and if I need to,
> I'll
> create that "death's lexicon"
>
> - Max
>
What about the verb "to slay"? Where does it come from?
Is it related to "slaughter"? Or to the Dutch "slagen"?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:45:17 -0500
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Costanice Phonology Sketch
Jesse wrote:
> The various regional dialects of Koine Greek begin to break up early
> into Hellenic and Byzantine groups. When the Turks sacked
> Constantinople in 1452
Nitpick: the Turks didn't sack Constantinople until the next
year, in 1453. It may or may not be helpful to remember this
by knowing that it was the same year the Hundred Years' War
officially ended.
> From this point on the language was heavily
> influence by Spanish. About 150 years later their descendants began to
> emmigrate to South America where, after some oppression and a few
> failed revolutions, they eventually got their own state speaking their
> offshoot of Greek, now called Costanice ( < konstantinike:).
Why didn't this group of people simply become assimilated to
the local culture, as the real Greeks who fled to Italy did?
And why does this Greek change so much from the Renaissance
until now? In real life, languages that separated even 1000
years ago tend to look very, very similar. Obviously language
contact is involved here, so things might be different.
I do not mean the following as a criticism of your project, but
something I've never understood about certain historical projects
like this and Brithenig is the idea that the substrate language
(Latin or, here, Greek) would be so influenced by some other language
that it would not just adopt hundreds or thousands of the adstrate's
lexical items, but also adopt its Lautgesetze, too. To me, unless
special circumstances are involved, it seems more likely that such
a heavy influence would merely kill off the substrate, rather than
change it to look more like the adstrate.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:45:20 -0500
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
Henrik wrote:
> All of them did the 'i was like' stuff.
I don't think this feature is restricted to Californians.
For most people in my generation it seems it is the standard way
to introduce direct quotations. Earlier generations would
say: "And he goes...", but unlike this earlier construction,
the "like" construction can include both spoken and unspoken
sentiments, as long as the unspoken sentiment notionally
records actual thoughts.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:44:58 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Quoting Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:53:37 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
Seems I make my orthographies too sensible - people mostly pronounce things
recognizably. Proper pronunciations interspersed:
> >Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
> >
> >Tairezazh
>
> /taj.rE'zaZ/
['taj.rE.zaZ]
> >Kesheáras
>
> /kE.SE.a:r.&s/
[kE.SE'a:.ras]
> >Altaii
>
> /al.ta'ji:/
[al'taj.i]
> >Meghean
>
> /mE'Ri:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
[me'Zan]
This is apparently the tricky one. I was amused by the medial glottal stops some
had.
> >U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
>
> /u: rax u: na'ja:r.gIz UN/
[M'rax M.na'jar.gi.zMN]
> >Telendlest
>
> /tE'lEnd.lESt/, strangely enough. I want to make the /s/ (presumably) be
> an /S/
['tE.lEnd,lEst]
> >Searixina
>
> /se'a:r.I"Ti.n&/ The /T/ is probably due to Noygwexaal's oddities of
> transcription.
LOL! It's simply ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Kalini Sapak
>
> /k@'li:.ni: 's&.p&k/ when I'm reading it properly. My eye rather lazily
> saw /k@'li:.ni: Spr&k/ at first, though.
[ka'li.ni sa'pak]
I was amused by the "sprak" readings. Actually, the radicals of _sapak_ are
ripped out of English "speak".
> >Steienzh
>
> /'staj.EnZ/
['stej.n=Z]
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:51:13 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
Jean-François Colson wrote:
>
>>
>
> What about the verb "to slay"? Where does it come from?
> Is it related to "slaughter"? Or to the Dutch "slagen"?
>
>
Both, I suspect. 'slay' was originally 'slean' [sl&an] <
'*sleahan'[sl&axan], which looks quite possibly related to the Dutch
[sla:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (I think). Equally, I believe
'slaughter'(as a
noun) comes from OE. 'sleahtre', from the same root. (Just from memory.
May be wrong).
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:31:47 -0400
From: Holger Ebermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Picto & Dil
Does anyone know those conlangs? Thanks a lot for every hint.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:13:34 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Jean-François Colson wrote:
>What about the verb "to slay"? Where does it come from? Is it
related >to "slaughter"? Or to the Dutch "slagen"?
Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Both, I suspect. 'slay' was originally 'slean'
>>sl&an] '*sleahan'[sl&axan], which looks quite possibly related to
>>the Dutch [sla:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (I think). Equally, I
>>believe 'slaughter'(as a noun) comes from OE. 'sleahtre', from the
>>same root. (Just from memory. May be wrong).
slay < ME slen(en), slew, sleyen < OE slean, sloh, slægen < PIE
*slak.
Cognate to sledgehammer, slaughter, schlock, onslaught, slag?, slack?
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:08:37 +0200
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: past tense imperative
A couple of days ago, I was struck by an interesting grammatical construction
in Dutch. Dutch has a construction in which an imperative can be used in
the past perfect:
Had dat dan gezegd! - You should have told me so!
Was dan niet gegaan! - You shouldn't have gone!
AFAIK, in other languages, the imperative always seems to be used with the
present tense.
Are there other languages in which this phenomenon is known?
René
_____________________________________________________________________
Je eigen persoonlijk e-mailadres bij Tiscali? Registreer nu
een domeinnaam bij Tiscali. Ga naar http://www.tiscali.nl
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:19:52 -0500
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fwd: Costanice Phonology Sketch
> > From this point on the language was heavily
> > influence by Spanish. About 150 years later their descendants began to
> > emmigrate to South America where, after some oppression and a few
> > failed revolutions, they eventually got their own state speaking their
> > offshoot of Greek, now called Costanice ( < konstantinike:).
>
> Why didn't this group of people simply become assimilated to
> the local culture, as the real Greeks who fled to Italy did?
They need to survive as an enclave in Spain (well, *there* Aragon) for
only about 150 years, which seems completely possible--there are
Chinatowns and other such enclaves in the US which have existed for at
least that long. Once they start emigrating to America things are
easier, because they set up monolingual Costanico villages and cities.
In the colony the Aragonese set up in the New World, the Costanicos
were a minority, but in the regions that eventually broke away they
were majority. The groups that remained in Spain, OTOH, were
eventually assimilated.
> And why does this Greek change so much from the Renaissance
> until now? In real life, languages that separated even 1000
> years ago tend to look very, very similar. Obviously language
> contact is involved here, so things might be different.
It does not change _that_ much, no more than *here*s Spanish did. Most
of the changes distinguishing this dialect from what we know as Greek
precede the break, which is why I mentioned the dialectical
difference. The real linguistic point of departure has to lie in the
1st or 2nd centuries, when these Asian Greek dialects start going a
different direction from what *here*s Greek did.
> I do not mean the following as a criticism of your project, but
> something I've never understood about certain historical projects
> like this and Brithenig is the idea that the substrate language
> (Latin or, here, Greek) would be so influenced by some other language
> that it would not just adopt hundreds or thousands of the adstrate's
> lexical items, but also adopt its Lautgesetze, too. To me, unless
> special circumstances are involved, it seems more likely that such
> a heavy influence would merely kill off the substrate, rather than
> change it to look more like the adstrate.
Well, in this case, some of the changes that chronologically must have
occurred before the move to Spain are still contrived to create
Spanish-like output. But that's my prerogative as the language creator
:).
--
JS Bangs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drink
I could tell you all about it
I could tell you why I doubted
And why I still believe."
- Pedro the Lion
--
JS Bangs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drink
I could tell you all about it
I could tell you why I doubted
And why I still believe."
- Pedro the Lion
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:32:00 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
>> --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> What about "slaughter" as in killing an animal for
>> food, or "exterminate" as in killing a pestiferous
>> insect, or "execute" as in institutional killing of
>> a criminal?
>
> Or "sacrifice" as in killing as part of a religious
> ritual, or "suicide" as in killing one's self, or
> "Martyrdom" as in allowing one's self to be killed in
> service of a higher good.
In Senyecan:
órga = to kill; órgun = killer, thus:
apórga = to kill a father; amórga = to kill a mother, etc.
yoµórga = to execute, < "authority kill."
potórga = to commit suicide, < "self kill."
mémsa = to slaughter, butcher, strip of flesh, flense, flesh.
£éqïa = to tear down, annihilate, destroy, demolish,
esterminate,
raze, havoc.
pénda - to make-, bring-, offer-, -a sacrifice, sacrifice,
immolate
(not given in previous postings). It's interesting that "immolate"
originally meant to sprinkle with meal.
I haven't worked out martyr yet. The Gk verb means to give witness,
etc. The one who does so, the martyr, is the subject of the verb.
But in English, the subject of the verb "to martyr" is not the one
who gives witness but the one who kills the martyr.
tøsta = to give-, bear-, -witness, to witness, to be martyred. I
haven't figured out how to work this to mean "to martyr."
r = 4_0
µ = m_0
£ = l_0
q = C
ï = palatalization
P.S. I'm not aware of the Latin prep. "ex" meaning beyond. Rather I
would have interpreted "exterminate" as "from the boundary," i.e., to
drive out.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:47:54 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: past tense imperative
Hi!
René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> A couple of days ago, I was struck by an interesting grammatical construction
> in Dutch. Dutch has a construction in which an imperative can be used in
> the past perfect:
>
> Had dat dan gezegd! - You should have told me so!
> Was dan niet gegaan! - You shouldn't have gone!
Cool! German cannot do that, that's for sure! Very concise -- I
think I'll have to keep that it mind for conlanging.
It's a bit strange, of course, since the action contained it the
command is obviously already terminated, so 'imperative' is a strange
word here.
> AFAIK, in other languages, the imperative always seems to be used
> with the present tense.
>
> Are there other languages in which this phenomenon is known?
No idea.
**Henrik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:28:30 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: past tense imperative
Hi!
Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > A couple of days ago, I was struck by an interesting grammatical
> > construction
> > in Dutch. Dutch has a construction in which an imperative can be used in
> > the past perfect:
> >
> > Had dat dan gezegd! - You should have told me so!
> > Was dan niet gegaan! - You shouldn't have gone!
>
> Cool! German cannot do that, that's for sure! Very concise -- I
> think I'll have to keep that it mind for conlanging.
>
> It's a bit strange, of course, since the action contained it the
> command is obviously already terminated, so 'imperative' is a strange
> word here.
Thinking again, I'd probably include an imperative in some irrealis mood
in past perfect in a conlang. Thus in German, I'd approximate that
with 'Konjunktiv' ('subjunctive' in English?):
*Hätt' das dann auch gesagt!
*Wär dann halt nicht gegangen!
Of course, these are ungrammatical, but nice for a conlang, as I said.
**Henrik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:42:23 +0200
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Jean-François Colson wrote:
>
>>
>> What about the verb "to slay"? Where does it come from?
>> Is it related to "slaughter"? Or to the Dutch "slagen"?
>>
>
>Both, I suspect. 'slay' was originally 'slean' [sl&an] <
>'*sleahan'[sl&axan], which looks quite possibly related to the Dutch
>[sla:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (I think). Equally, I believe
>'slaughter'(as a
>noun) comes from OE. 'sleahtre', from the same root. (Just from memory.
>May be wrong).
>
Dutch has:
slaan - to hit (the past tense has |g|: "ik sloeg" = I hit-PAST)
verslaan - to defeat (="beat")
slachten - to kill (of animals: "de slager" = the butcher)
afslachten - to slaughter (of people)
slagen - to succeed (I don't know if this comes from the same root)
quite likely to be mixed up, I think :)
slaan - sloeg - geslagen
slachten - slachtte - geslacht
slagen - slaagde - geslaagd
René (who really likes his L1)
_____________________________________________________________________
Je eigen persoonlijk e-mailadres bij Tiscali? Registreer nu
een domeinnaam bij Tiscali. Ga naar http://www.tiscali.nl
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:16:26 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
>From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
>Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:12:55 +1200
>
>On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:07, Tim May wrote:
> > Roger Mills wrote at 2005-03-31 15:09:26 (-0500)
> >
> > > H.S. Teoh et al. wrote:
> > > > [...]
>That's a given. Stone tools are great - don't get me wrong there! - but
>they
>are not suitable for the tolerances needed to fit something tightly
>together.
>And it also has a bearing on the timber supply - stone tools can only
>supply
>in low quantity. Metal tools can cut a greater quantity with the same
>amount
>of effort. And that is also connected to smelting - smelting takes one
>heck
>of a lot of wood.
to be fair, it takes a lot of wood to prepare the limestone needed to
build Mayan pyramids.
(different type or quality of wood?)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:00:05 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Absolute constructions
In the most recent issue of "The Journal of Indo-European Studies" is
an article entitled "Absolute Constructions in Slavic: Case Diversity
and Orginality" by Daniela S. Hristova.
It was fascinating to learn that different IE languages use different
cases for their absolutes. Slavic uses the dative, Latin uses the
ablative, Sanskrit uses the locative, and Greek the genitive. The
purpose of the article was to demonstrate that absolute constructions
in the Slavic languages were in the dative case and not some other
construction. With her data, the author supports the assumption that
absolute constructions in the daughter languages are inherited from
the protolanguage.
With this in mind, I want to add absolute constructions to Senyecan.
And since these constructions occur in different cases in the
daughter languages, I feel I can have several different forms of the
absolute construction to express nuances.
I have three pairs of parameters with which to work: present and past
tenses, perfective and imperfective aspects, and stative and motive
cases. Any suggestions on how to realize these in my conlang would
be greatly appreciated. For example, an imperfective participle in
the construction could indicate that the action is going on at the
same time as the verb in the main clause, while the perfective would
indicate that it was completed before the time of the main verb.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:30:33 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: past tense imperative
René Uittenbogaard wrote:
> A couple of days ago, I was struck by an interesting grammatical construction
> in Dutch. Dutch has a construction in which an imperative can be used in
> the past perfect:
>
> Had dat dan gezegd! - You should have told me so!
> Was dan niet gegaan! - You shouldn't have gone!
>
> AFAIK, in other languages, the imperative always seems to be used with the
> present tense.
Cool! I'm stealing (with a few adjustments) that for Eretas.
K.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:06:01 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
René Uittenbogaard wrote:
>Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Jean-François Colson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>What about the verb "to slay"? Where does it come from?
>>>Is it related to "slaughter"? Or to the Dutch "slagen"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Both, I suspect. 'slay' was originally 'slean' [sl&an] <
>>'*sleahan'[sl&axan], which looks quite possibly related to the Dutch
>>[sla:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (I think). Equally, I believe
>>'slaughter'(as a
>>noun) comes from OE. 'sleahtre', from the same root. (Just from memory.
>>May be wrong).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Dutch has:
>
>slaan - to hit (the past tense has |g|: "ik sloeg" = I hit-PAST)
>verslaan - to defeat (="beat")
>slachten - to kill (of animals: "de slager" = the butcher)
>afslachten - to slaughter (of people)
>slagen - to succeed (I don't know if this comes from the same root)
>
>
>
Of those, Old English had 'slean'(attack, beat) c. 'slaan',
'forslean'(cut through) c. 'verslaan', 'ofslean'(slay) c. 'afslachten' -
I suppose there's no such thing is 'afslaan'? I'm not sure of the root
of 'slaughter'(the verb), but it's obviously cognate.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
