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There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Conlanging in the news
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Conlanging in the news
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Sayings of the Wise #2
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Sayings of the Wise #2
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Number systems (was: Picto & Dil)
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Number systems (was: Picto & Dil)
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Announcement
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Sayings of the Wise #2
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. TECH: how do I get a flippin' gmail account?
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:02:25 +0100
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
On 4/21/05, Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, to cut to the quick on the equations thingee, I suspect that the
> central equations of the Ferochromon would be a mixture of quantum mechanics
> and the mathematical monsters that make up chaos theory and fractal geometry
> - not all that different from the current cosmos, except for the serious
> downgrading of gravity from a central part of the nature of matter, to an
> incidental effect which explains why some things conglomerate and others
> don't - the equivalent of the electroweak in this current cosmos.
>
> (You've already indicated that the electroweak is incredibly strong in the
> Ferochromon - it's the electrostrong that structures crystals in this current
> cosmos, unless I've got it wrong. ;)
>
> Just don't take my word for it.
I suspect you are wrong (in as much as right and wrong exist for a
fictional universe). Our universe has no particles anything like
those described in the text. Also, the individual realms have
absolute motion (though not absolute position), i.e. relative to the
lattices, which is somewhat Aristotelian (I'm working on the math :-I)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:25:45 -0500
From: Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlanging in the news
> Grrr...
>
> This is really upsetting to me. I need money much more than
> a Ph.D. candidate does (or will). Obviously our own community
> has attracted no attention. Of course, if you're not even
> willing to do a google search... Bah. Whatever. Work to do.
Are you joking? :) Most PhD students, far from being awash in
cash, live penurious, almost ascetic lives from lack of funding.
I myself am drowning in a vast sea of debt. The fact is,
linguistics like most of the humanities simply wouldn't exist
if universities weren't dishing out tens of thousands of dollars
to each individual student to study.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:02:30 +0100
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
On 4/21/05, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For the sake of keeping it to a sane length, I decided to omit the
> history of the Ebisédi, which incidentally is already covered by
> another document, and stick only to the large-scale physical structure
> of the Ferochromon. Anyway, you may read it here:
>
> http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/ferochromon/cosmohist.html
One slight problem: I was totally confused until I realised that by
"function", you don't mean mathematical function, but purpose or use.
Also, I make the dimensionality of the Hyperether to be 3 that the
lattices correspond to (each is a spacial dimension of the
corresponding realm) + 2 that all three realms have (the other two
dimensions of space for the realms) + (at least) 1 along the line
between the two poles = (at least) 6.
AFAICT, the realms have dimensions u-v-x, u-v-y, and u-v-z, where x,
y, and z correspond to the three lattices, so the realms are (flat)
3-manifolds embedded in a 5(or higher)-manifold.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:04:20 +0100
From: Simon Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlanging in the news
On 4/19/05, Thomas Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/arts/19lang.html>
For those who can't be bothered to register:
<http://bugmenot.com/>
(works for several sites!)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:23:58 -0700
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sayings of the Wise #2
On Tuesday 19 April 2005 10:52, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Never test the water with both feet.
This presented a bit of a dilemma for Kelen. Apparently I don't have a word
for "both". So, here are two solutions, you all decide which one you like
better and let me know...
sere anhari jaceha mo riwanne enne we;
SE+2p.sg.exp water test MO 2p-foot two DON'T
(The plural suffix isn't used for small numbers of things. The plural usually
kicks in after 4 items.)
"Don't test the water with your two feet."
or
sere anhari jaceha mo riwanne tena we;
SE+2p.sg.exp water test MO 2p-foot all DON'T
(tena actually means "of a small set, all of them" as opposed to nara, which
means "all" when used with a plural noun, and "whole or all of something"
when used with a singular noun. tena is a new word, used so far only in this
translation)
"Don't test the water with all of your feet."
notes:
SE is the relational used with experiences. The object of SE is the
experience, and MO is used to mark explicitly the experiencer. Foot is an
obligatorily expressed noun and is assumed to refer to both feet, but can
only refer to one foot, so without a modifier this could mean " Don't test
the water with both of your feet" or "Don't test the water with your foot."
-Sylvia
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kelen language info can be found at:
http://www.terjemar.net/kelen.php
This post may contain the following:
ñ (n-tilde) þ (thorn)
a (a-macron) e (e-macron)
i (i-macron) o (o-macron)
u (u-macron) λ (lambda)
ae ñarra anmarienne ci ae reharra anmarienne la;
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:01:10 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 09:02:30PM +0100, Simon Clarkstone wrote:
> On 4/21/05, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > For the sake of keeping it to a sane length, I decided to omit the
> > history of the Ebisédi, which incidentally is already covered by
> > another document, and stick only to the large-scale physical structure
> > of the Ferochromon. Anyway, you may read it here:
> >
> > http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/ferochromon/cosmohist.html
> One slight problem: I was totally confused until I realised that by
> "function", you don't mean mathematical function, but purpose or use.
Yeah, that's the problem with the polysemy of the English word
"function". I don't know what other term to use, though. I guess it
gets doubly bad when I start talking about differentiation, which
isn't referring to the calculus operation, but rather a specialization
in function.
The basic idea is that high energy FE is akin to a ball sitting at the
top of a hill, which can decide which valley (function/mode) it wants
to fall into, whereas a low energy FE is a ball that has fallen into
the valley and doesn't have enough energy to climb the sides of the
valley (can't change function/mode anymore).
> Also, I make the dimensionality of the Hyperether to be 3 that the
> lattices correspond to (each is a spacial dimension of the
> corresponding realm) + 2 that all three realms have (the other two
> dimensions of space for the realms) + (at least) 1 along the line
> between the two poles = (at least) 6.
>
> AFAICT, the realms have dimensions u-v-x, u-v-y, and u-v-z, where x,
> y, and z correspond to the three lattices, so the realms are (flat)
> 3-manifolds embedded in a 5(or higher)-manifold.
Yeah, in my conception of it, the realms are essentially 3-manifolds
embedded in higher-dimensional space.
Although, in my mind lattice "orientation" is more the "shape" of the
lattices themselves, such that only compatible shapes can tile
together. To use a 2D example, one "orientation" might be squares,
and another might be hexagons. Squares produce a regular tiling that
covers (2D) space as do hexagons, but a mixture of squares and
hexagons can't form a gapless tiling.
In this analysis, the undifferentiated state would correspond with a
higher dimensional space such that the shapes become compatible. What
I have in mind here is something like this: the "squares" and
"hexagons" that tile the 2D plane are actually 3D cubes confined in a
2D plane in different orientations. Cubes that got embedded in the
plane perpendicular to their axis occupy a square area in the plane
(because the perpendicular intersection of the cube with the plane is
a square), whereas cubes that got embedded in a tilted orientation
occupy a hexagonal area (the maximal intersection of the cube with the
plane is a hexagon). Because they are now stuck to the 2D plane, they
can no longer rotate in 3D, so the "hexagons" and the "squares" can no
longer interconvert. So even though the same cubes could tile 3D space
seamlessly, they behave as though they were different shapes in 2D,
because they are oriented differently when they got stuck on the 2D
plane.
In other words, the lattices are higher-dimensional space-tiling
polytopes that got entrapped in a lower-dimensional manifold, so that
they form different space-tiling shapes depending on their orientation
at the time they got entrapped.
BTW, out of curiosity, what do you have in mind w.r.t. how to approach
creating equations that describe the Ferochromon? I've attempted this
a few times but gave up because it just got way too complicated. The
bit that requires constant force to remain in motion is easy, but I
have a hard time coming up with precise equations that would predict
such things as approaching objects spiralling inwards rather than
collide head-on, or how objects in curved motion would be drawn
inwards in the direction of the curve, etc..
T
--
One reason that few people are aware there are programs running the internet
is that they never crash in any significant way: the free software underlying
the internet is reliable to the point of invisibility. -- Glyn Moody, from
the article "Giving it all away"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 03:16:43 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sayings of the Wise #2
Hi!
Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tuesday 19 April 2005 10:52, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> > Never test the water with both feet.
>
> This presented a bit of a dilemma for Kelen. Apparently I don't have a word
> for "both". So, here are two solutions, you all decide which one you like
> better and let me know...
Ach, no problem! 'both' is just the dual of 'all'. I'd not be
surprised if there're natlangs that don't have it.
So I'd approximate:
Never test the water with all feet.
And if feet need inalienable possession in your lang, my favorite is:
> sere anhari jaceha mo riwanne tena we;
> SE+2p.sg.exp water test MO 2p-foot all DON'T
!
> (tena actually means "of a small set, all of them" as opposed to nara, which
> means "all" when used with a plural noun, ...
So a paucal version of 'all', that's even closer to 'both' in dual. :-)
I must say that the above example would be only one word in Qthyn|gai.
I'm not going to translate it now -- it would take me too long. But
the principle would be:
IMPER.to_test.NEG.ANTIP.APPL_INSTR.water.AGT.feet.DEG.2.all.PAT
2 = 2nd person
AGT = agentive case
ANTIP = antipassive
APPL = applicative
DEG = degree
IMPER = imperative
INSTR = instrumental case
NEG = negation
PAT = patientive case
The interesting thing is that Qthyn|gai just *loves* incorporation, so
the written language does almost anything to reach a high level of
incorporation. Qthyn|gai predicates can incorporate up to two
arguments: agent and patient. In the sentence above, two derivational
suffixes are used to derive a predicate that can incorporate both
'water' and feet'.
'water' would be easy: it'd be the patient of 'to_test'.
But 'feet' is instrumental. To incorporate it, an applicative suffix
for instrumental case is applied. It makes a verbs that has a
semantical instrumental as its patient argument.
However, the applicative overrides the patient position now, which we
would like for 'water'. To incorporate 'water', another suffix is
applied before the applicative: the antipassive, which makes a patient
argument appear as an agent.
Due to the strong preference of incorporation, Ancient Q'en|gai's
focus changes involved in the voices have gone: things like
'antipassive' are not 'voice' anymore, but mere syntactical
operations.
The combined use of antipassive and applicative is quite common in
Qthyn|gai, actually -- I've used it several times in translations.
**Henrik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 04:04:02 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number systems (was: Picto & Dil)
Hi!
Ray Brown writes in response to me:
>...
> If Greek culture had had a significant effect on western & central
> European culture, I suppose we might have counted in myriads (10000), but
> even their numeric symbols only went up to 999; you then used the same
> ones again, but with a mark to multiply them by 1000 - so I guess the
> number symbols would still have suggested counting in 1000s :(
BTW: as a friend of mine pointed out after lurking here, putting me
under heavy surveilance (hi!!), the East Asian conlang Baronh (an a
posteriori of purified Ancient Japanese) uses 10^4 as a basis of unit
prefixes.
>...
> So if 'nine ten one two three four five six seven eight nine' =
> 1.23456789e9, then do we just say (with direct translation) 'five ten one
> two three four five six seven eight nine' to denote 1.23456789e5, thus
> eliminating any need for a Tyl Sjok word for point/decimal/comma?
This would be done in the scientific world, but it is one of the
things I find a bit unnatural in daily life, I think. Maybe with
fixed things like units of money, this would happen.
In normal speech, you'd split the number into two parts and link them
with 'add':
5 10 1 2 3 4 5 + - 1 10 6 7 8 9
What's common is abbreviation, however, e.g.:
5000 = 3 10 5
And the above 'add' is also used to skip a lot of zeros:
500002 = 6 10 5 + 2
> > Hmm -- I don't think it's more complex to count the factors of ten
> > instead of learning several words for a few of them. The 'person on
> > the street' possibly just uses relatively small number words, and when
> > getting exposed to larger ones, they'd hopefully not be scared away by
> > a different type of number representation, because the one they'd use
> > on the street is just the normal one.
>
> Ooh - but they would IME - it's surprising the number of adults, in the UK
> at least, that just have a mental block when it comes to anything
> unfamiliar with numbers. It would be those brought up with the new system
> that might find it easier, but......
Yeah, sure, same mental block in this country. :-) But for natives in
Tyl Sjok and Qthyng|ai, this would be their everyday system. They'd
not have to learn a second one for maths.
>... without empirical data, it is guess work. I don't know how we
> could go about getting empirical data. It would certainly be very
> interesting IMO.
:-) I'm not the person to test my conlangs on children...
>...
> I guess not either. But it must be easier than working with a mile of 1760
> yards or 5280 feet :)
Ough! That's no good for a metrical person like me. :-)
Anyway, more on the Tyl Sjok system -- you asked, at least
implicitly. :-) Any I think the gory details of the following are not
on the list yet (maybe some bits):
I've included inches and times in the Tyl Sjok system: it can handle
'strange' units. This is actually the second layer: you'd treat the
super-units of a base unit as exponents and keep the same syntax as
with numbers. If the multiples are > 16, you have to introduce an
intermediate unit step:
(1) second = second
2 second = 15 seconds
3 second = minute
4 second = 15 minutes
5 second = hour
6 second = half a day
7 second = day
8 second = week
9 second = month
10 second = year
The range of the exponent is valid where the unit is multiplied
irregularly, so below 1 seconds, you'd use decimal again and above a
year, you'd also use decimal again. Also note that you count from 0,
not from one: just like after 9 comes 10, after, January 30 comes
February 0. This may be confusing when learning Tyl Sjok, I
admit... :-))))
The time now is:
3:45:31 = 5 second 3 3 0 2 1
For times, the unit will probably be left out, and since you usually
need to start at exponent 6 (half a day), that'd be:
0 3 3 0 2 1
(Reminds me: program a digital desktop clock in Tyl Sjok, Henrik...)
Nice thing is: a five digit clock is a 12 hour clock while a 24 hour
clock has six digits. Very natural. :-)
The layering of units and bases can be seen in dates:
Apr 22, 2005 = 10 second 3 10 2 0 0 5 3 3 1
Here, after 3 10 2 0 0 5, the number's exponent would drop to < 0, but
the unit exponent is still > 0, so it's understood that the next
sub-unit is due now and the following 3 is not taken to be year
2005.3, but Month 3 = April, etc.
You can use whatever unit system you like with Tyl Sjok, there's no
conculture.
Ah, yes: the base by which the smalles unit divides is lexicalised,
because for m, it is probably 10, but for inches, it is probably 2:
meter 2 1 = 2.1 meters
meter 2 1 1 = 2.1 meters
meter 2 1 1 1 = 2.1 meters
inch 2 1 = 2 + 1/2 = 2.5 inches
inch 2 1 1 = 2 + 3/4 = 2.75 inches
inch 2 1 1 1 = 2 + 7/8 = 2.825 inches
> > (In Tyl Sjok, these prefixes just don't exist (by definition :-))).
> > You'd use 1000m instead of 1km. This holds for whatever unit.)
>
> But 1024b instead of 1Kb :)
Right! :-) You'd probably count in hexadecimal then, anyway, so it's:
1km = meter 3 10
1kB = byte 2 16 4
> >> and that might suggest keeping a similar system in an auxlang - but
> >> I'll leave that to that other list ;)
> >
> > Right -- may this be discussed in that place! :-)
>
> They actually _discuss_ things there now, do they (just kidding :)
:-)) I don't know -- I've never been there. They used to only shout?
**Henrik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:32:26 -0500
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number systems (was: Picto & Dil)
Ray Brown wrote:
> What strikes me as inelegant is that all the prefixes that denote division
> by a power of 1000 (or negative exponent) end in -o except for milli-;
> likewise all the prefixes that denotes multiplying by powers of 1000 end
> in -a except kilo- (which looks as tho it ought to belong to the former
> group :)
Before I decided that Tirelat was a Sangari language, I had Tirelat
versions of the metric prefixes, with "milo-, santo-, deso-" for
"milli-, centi-, deci-" and "xekta-, kila-" for "hecto-, kilo-". These
didn't fit with the base-12 Tirelat number system, but I figured it
wasn't worth the effort to convert from metric to a 12-based measurement
system.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:45:51 -0700
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: All you (n)ever wanted to know about the Ferochromon
--- "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 09:02:30PM +0100, Simon
> Clarkstone wrote:
> > On 4/21/05, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > For the sake of keeping it to a sane length, I
> decided to omit the
> > > history of the Ebisédi, which incidentally is
> already covered by
> > > another document, and stick only to the
> large-scale physical structure
> > > of the Ferochromon. Anyway, you may read it
> here:
> > >
> > >
>
http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/ferochromon/cosmohist.html
> > One slight problem: I was totally confused until I
> realised that by
> > "function", you don't mean mathematical function,
> but purpose or use.
>
> Yeah, that's the problem with the polysemy of the
> English word
> "function". I don't know what other term to use,
> though. I guess it
> gets doubly bad when I start talking about
> differentiation, which
> isn't referring to the calculus operation, but
> rather a specialization
> in function.
>
> The basic idea is that high energy FE is akin to a
> ball sitting at the
> top of a hill, which can decide which valley
> (function/mode) it wants
> to fall into, whereas a low energy FE is a ball that
> has fallen into
> the valley and doesn't have enough energy to climb
> the sides of the
> valley (can't change function/mode anymore).
>
>
> > Also, I make the dimensionality of the Hyperether
> to be 3 that the
> > lattices correspond to (each is a spacial
> dimension of the
> > corresponding realm) + 2 that all three realms
> have (the other two
> > dimensions of space for the realms) + (at least) 1
> along the line
> > between the two poles = (at least) 6.
> >
> > AFAICT, the realms have dimensions u-v-x, u-v-y,
> and u-v-z, where x,
> > y, and z correspond to the three lattices, so the
> realms are (flat)
> > 3-manifolds embedded in a 5(or higher)-manifold.
>
> Yeah, in my conception of it, the realms are
> essentially 3-manifolds
> embedded in higher-dimensional space.
>
> Although, in my mind lattice "orientation" is more
> the "shape" of the
> lattices themselves, such that only compatible
> shapes can tile
> together. To use a 2D example, one "orientation"
> might be squares,
> and another might be hexagons. Squares produce a
> regular tiling that
> covers (2D) space as do hexagons, but a mixture of
> squares and
> hexagons can't form a gapless tiling.
>
> In this analysis, the undifferentiated state would
> correspond with a
> higher dimensional space such that the shapes become
> compatible. What
> I have in mind here is something like this: the
> "squares" and
> "hexagons" that tile the 2D plane are actually 3D
> cubes confined in a
> 2D plane in different orientations. Cubes that got
> embedded in the
> plane perpendicular to their axis occupy a square
> area in the plane
> (because the perpendicular intersection of the cube
> with the plane is
> a square), whereas cubes that got embedded in a
> tilted orientation
> occupy a hexagonal area (the maximal intersection of
> the cube with the
> plane is a hexagon). Because they are now stuck to
> the 2D plane, they
> can no longer rotate in 3D, so the "hexagons" and
> the "squares" can no
> longer interconvert. So even though the same cubes
> could tile 3D space
> seamlessly, they behave as though they were
> different shapes in 2D,
> because they are oriented differently when they got
> stuck on the 2D
> plane.
>
> In other words, the lattices are higher-dimensional
> space-tiling
> polytopes that got entrapped in a lower-dimensional
> manifold, so that
> they form different space-tiling shapes depending on
> their orientation
> at the time they got entrapped.
>
>
> BTW, out of curiosity, what do you have in mind
> w.r.t. how to approach
> creating equations that describe the Ferochromon?
> I've attempted this
> a few times but gave up because it just got way too
> complicated. The
> bit that requires constant force to remain in motion
> is easy, but I
> have a hard time coming up with precise equations
> that would predict
> such things as approaching objects spiralling
> inwards rather than
> collide head-on, or how objects in curved motion
> would be drawn
> inwards in the direction of the curve, etc..
Head... splody... ARGH
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:51:13 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Announcement
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> nile yale temandri-mes
> to.them there.is chief.priest-one(=first)
>
> ilepes arañi prakarona folaket
> they.call name.his HON.blessed sixteen
Haeme un Paba.
Hae sunte id noeme Beondicte XVI.
[hajm @m ba:b]
[he zunt i nAjm bEn'diCt i se'zejm]
> Hmm, doesn't sound quite the same, does it.
Yep. It sounds better in Jovian. :))
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:33:58 -0400
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005
Hi, Jim. I got two of these. Is this second one different from the first?
Thanks, Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005
> Sally Caves wrote:
>> A. PROFESSION, DEMOGRAPHICS, INCLINATION:
>
>> 1. Who are you, and what is the name of your invented
>> language or languages?
>
> Jim Henry: my main current conlang is gjax-zym-byn (/gj&'zUmbUn/).
> Some languages I've worked on in the past include Thaurilarau and
> Llegisia.
>
>> *2. Are you new to the Lunatic Survey or have you filled
>> out a version of this survey before?
>
> I don't think I've done this before; I'm active on CONLANG-L
> only intermittently.
>
>> 3. Do you have a website for you language/world(s)? If so,
>> please list the URL address.
>
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
>
>> 4. What is your email address?
>
> jimhenry at pobox dot com
>
>> 5. What is your age? (vague answers allowed, but it is an
>> important demographic)
>
> 31 years
>
>> 6. What is your gender?
>
> Animate. Oh, ... male.
>
>> 7. What is your nationality? Where do you live now?
>
> American. Duluth, Georgia (near Atlanta)
>
>> 8. What is your native language?
>
> English
>
>> 9. What natural languages foreign to you have you studied
>> or do you speak?
>
> I can read French well and ancient Greek not so well. Can't
> speak either.
>
> Using a broader definition of "natural language", I speak
> Esperanto about as fluently as English.
>
>> 10. What is your level of education? i.e., your highest
>> degree achieved or sought?
>
> Bachelor's degree
>
>> 11. What is your profession? Are you a professional
>> linguist? If so, what also makes you a conlanger?
>
> Network programmer and software tester. No formal
> education in linguistics.
>
>> 13. If you are a student,
>
> no.
>
>> 14. How long have you been developing your invented
>> language(s)?
>
> I think I developed my first skechy conlang in 1989, shortly
> after reading Tolkien (specifically the Book of Lost Tales -
> I didn't find the Silmarillion until much later). I started
> work on gjax-zym-byn in February or March 1998.
>
>> 15. At what age did you first start inventing a
>> language? Can you briefly describe your early efforts?
>
> I was probably 16 when I developed an Elvish language
> used for names in a fantasy story I was writing. The
> phonology was very Englishesque, and there was no syntax
> to speak of, but the morphology was eerily similar to
> Esperanto, which I had not at the time heard of.
>
>> 16. What drew you to start inventing a language and/or
>> constructed world? What was the inspiration?
>
> Tolkien.
>
>> 17. Did you start inventing before you had heard of
>> the list or after? Before you had heard of Esperanto or
>> Tolkien? (I name the two most common inspirations)
>
> I had developed three or four very sketchy conlangs
> that were all vocabulary and no grammar between about
> 1989-1995. In 1996 I discovered this list through
> Jeffrey Henning's homepage. After I started studying
> linguistics on my own, I developed several more naturalistic
> conlangs for a world I was working on with my brother.
> In early 1998 I started working on the language I now
> call gjax-zym-byn.
>
>> 18. Tolkien calls it a "shy art" and a "secret vice";
>> but that was before the Internet. How secret do you keep
>> it from others outside this list for much the same reasons?
>
> I don't keep it secret as such. I often try to keep quiet
> about it for fear of boring people, but when obsessed
> about it I will occasionally bend my brother's ear about
> the semantic or grammatical issues I'm working through.
>
>> 19. Yaguello has called it "pathological," influenced,
>> unfortunately, by a lot of psychiatric writings such
>> as _Le Schizo et la langue_. To what extent have you
>> encountered such reactions by outsiders you had taken into
>> your confidence?
>
> None, AFAIR.
>
>> *20. Do you consider it nerdy to be doing this? This
>
> Yes. Not necessarily a bad thing.
>
>> 21. There has been a connection noted between linguistic
>> and musical ability. Are you musically inclined? Do you
>> sing and/or play a musical instrument? Do you compose
>> music?
>
> Yes, yes, no, and no.
>
>> 22. There has been a connection noted between linguistic
>> and mathematical ability. Are you mathematically inclined
>> or inclined towards computing in any way?
>
> Interested in math, not very good at it. I'm a reasonably
> good but not brilliant programmer.
>
>> 23. What other passions do you pursue that give you
>> creative pleasure? (painting, drawing, sculpting,
>> calligraphy, model-building, novel or story-writing,
>> role-playing games, map-making, book-making, poetry,
>> web-designing, star-gazing or other?)
>
> Writing fiction, mostly in English, occasionally in Esperanto,
> sometimes even in gjax-zym-byn. Map-making. Collagerie.
>
>> B. FEATURES OF YOUR INVENTION
>
>> 1. Pick the best term for the invented language you are
>> currently invested in: auxlang, artlang, engelang, loglang,
>> lostlang, philosophical language, or "other." etc.
>
> Mix of artlang and loglang. Parts (the postposition system,
> the conjunctions) are designed to be concise, symmetical
> and thoroughly cover the possibilities with as few phonemes
> as possible. The root noun set is deliberately idiosyncratic.
>
>
>> 2. Is your conlang a priori (devised from scratch) or
>> a posteriori (based on an existing natural language or
>> drawing from a language class such as Semitic)?
>
> The root vocabulary is mostly a priori, but some words
> (~180 out of >700) are derived from words in Finnish,
> Latin, Malaysian, English, French, Greek, Esperanto,
> and a few other source languages (though often with
> Volapukesque deformation to fit the phonotactics).
>
>> 4. Do you have a script for your conlang? What is it
>> called? Could you provide me at a later date with a sample
>> of it? Is it on Langmaker's "neography" site?
>
> Yes; it's based on the lowercase Esperanto alphabet,
> with a bunch of additional letters for phonemes
> not found in Esperanto. No, I can't conveniently send
> samples. I don't have a scanner.
>
>> 5. Briefly describe the outlines of your invented
>> language (syntactical structure--VO, OV, etc.; class or
>> type--analytic, synthetic, agglutinating, incorporative,
>> accusative, ergative, active, trigger, other, combinations,
>> etc.), noting what you have done with it that is innovative
>> in your opinion.
>
> Postpositional, agglutinating; fixed word order within phrases,
> free arrangement of phrases within sentence, though OVS order is default.
>
>> 7. How extensive would you say your invented language is,
>> now? How big the vocabulary? Do you provide a vocabulary
>> list or taxonomy on your website if you have one?
>
> The dictionary contains >1400 words, about 700 root words and 700
> compounds (some included because they are unobvious or idiomatic, some
> simply to give examples of how certain affixes are used). It only
> lists 34 out of the 306 spacetime postpositions, but the rest are
> obvious. The tab-delimited dictionary is the most up to date part of
> my website, though I'm working on updating other parts.
>
>> 8. How do you build vocabulary? Some people pull words
>> out of the air; others build up a base of root words and
>> affixes. Many do both.
>
> Both. I try to create a word from existing root stock
> if possible, but will sometimes create new root words to replace
> unweildily long compounds. Both the initial design of gjax-zym-byn
> and my Esperanto writing style were influenced by Claude Piron's
> _La Bona Lingvo_.
>
>> 3. Does a constructed world accompany your
>> invention(s)? What is it called?
>
> Thaurilarau, Llegisia and others were designed for the Caligoi:
>
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/caligo/caligo0.htm
>
>> *9. Has your language and conworld ever served in a
>> role-playing game or a world shared by other conlangers?
>
> My brother and I roleplayed in the Caligoi a lot for several years,
> but that period did not overlap much the the time I was working
> on languages for the people of that world.
>
>> *10. Briefly describe your conculture (is it within the
>> bounds of this world? on another world, etc.?)
>
> A completely different planet, probably in a different universe.
>
>> *11. Are the beings who speak your invented language
>> human or alien? If alien, what features have you given
>> the language to make it alien or how have you restricted
>> or expanded its phonology? vocabulary?
>
> The speakers of Thaurilarau, Llegisia, etc. are nonhuman,
> but the languages I designed for them aren't particularly alien.
>
>> 12. What do you write in it? Poems? chants? lullabyes?
>> prayers? history? stories? recipes? Are any of these
>> exhibited on your website?
>
> I did the Babel text and the native creation myth in Thaurilarau.
> In gjax-zym-byn I've written a great deal -
> journal entries, story notes, stories, translations of several
> Bible passages, and most of my development notes on the language itself;
> but only a tiny proportion of all that is on my website.
> Most is in paper notebooks.
>
>> 13. Can you speak your conlang? Are you fluent in it? Is
>> this a goal for you? Have you tried to teach it to an
>> intimate? a companion animal? :)
>
> Yes, fluency in gjax-zym-byn is my goal. I am fairly fluent in
> writing and reading it, much less so in speaking it (I deliberately
> made its phoneme inventory large and exotic, to stretch myself).
>
> gjax-zym-byn was designed for my personal use; starting in
> 2000 I've been using it intermittently for my journal, especially
> for recording dreams.
>
>
>> 14. Have you made any soundbytes of your language? Could
>
> No.
>
>> *15. If you use Roman script, how recognizably
>> "phonetic" is your writing system? In other words, do
>> do you use unconventional letters or letter combinations
>> to represent sounds?
>
> The script is pretty much one-to-one phonemic, except that one
> letter represents nasalization of all the vowels in the word rather
> than a specific phoneme.
>
> However, the ASCII representation is a superset of X-convention
> Esperanto using many additional digraphs with "x" and "q" to represent
> phonemes not found in Esperanto. Even I have some trouble reading it,
> which is partly why I've mostly been working in paper notebooks.
>
>> 16. How many of you sing in your language and have invented
>> songs for that purpose?
>
> gjax-zym-byn is not euphonious enough for that, unfortunately.
>
>> *17. How many of you, for entertainment or any other
>> reason, resort to gibberish? (This is in response to
>
> Me.
>
>> Adrian Morgan's question in December). Does it give you
>> ideas for conlanging?
>
> Not especially.
>
>>(Have you ever fooled anyone?)
>
> Fooled anyone into thinking what?
>
>>How
>> many of you have sung gibberish?
>
> Me.
>
>> *18. What on-line games do you play? (or
>> devise?) Translations, Babel-text, Relays, etc.
>
> I've occasionally contributed a gjax-zym-byn version
> of some short text people are rendering into their conlangs.
>
>> 19. Which do you prefer doing: devising
>> phonology? script? structure? building vocabulary?
>
> All of the above, at different stages of a project.
>
>> 20. Do you start and stop several different conlangs,
>> or do you tend to stick with one and develop it over years?
>
> I've stuck with gjax-zym-byn longer than any previous conlang.
> But I haven't worked on it or even used it continuously
> for the last seven years. It's been intermittent, though I've
> never gone a whole year without doing something with it.
>
>> 21. What do you think makes a "complete" conlang, if a
>> conlang can attain completion? What are your goals for
>> completion?
>
> My goal for "completion" of gjax-zym-byn is to think fluently
> in it, only rarely needing to coin new root words.
>
>> When do you grow "tired" of your conlang,
>> or don't you?
>
> I didn't grow tired of the Caligoi languages so much
> as get more interested in gjax-zym-byn.
>
>> *22. Which came first: the conlang or the conworld?
>
> My brother created the Caligoi and I started helping
> him develop them years before I started seriously
> developing its languages.
>
>> C. PHILOSOPHY AND AESTHETIC:
>
>> 1. What aesthetic features do you value in inventing
>> language? Be specific as to phonology, structure, script,
>> etc.
>
> I like imaginative case/role marker systems that don't duplicate
> nominative/accusative or ergative/absolutive languages. I like
> isolation and agglutination. Script: I generally prefer curves to
> angles. I like splitting up semantic space in surprising ways.
>
>> 2. What commonly applied aesthetics have you ever tried
>> to avoid in your invention? This has been an oft debated
>> question, especially when it comes to Tolkien.
>
>> 3. Is difficulty or obscurity a goal in inventing a
>> language?
>
> Not for me. For gjax-zym-byn, I wanted to optimize for high
> exoticity and high learnability.
>
>> 4. Is efficiency a goal in inventing a language? This
>> question needn't cancel out the previous one.
>
> Sort of, yes. One of the things I am most dissatisfied with about
> gjax-zym-byn is how verbose it often is. I have tried different ways
> to work around this without major redesign.
>
>> 5. How natural do you wish to make it, or is that a
>> concern? Or rather, how unnatural do you wish to make it?
>
> I want it to be exotic, but not so unnatural that I can't
> learn to think in it.
>
>> 6. Can conlanging be sexy? sensual? obsessing? how does
>> it heal or harm you?
>
> An object of obsession, certainly. In fact...
>
> ...ok, I'm back.
>
> Writing my journal in gjax-zym-byn, I find I can sometimes be more
> honest with myself than when writing in English.
>
>> *7. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary
>> of obscenities?
>
> No.
>
>> 8. Can it be mystical? To what extent does conlanging
>> fulfill a spiritual purpose for you? Or a magical one? Did
>> it ever start out that way?
>
> I use gjax-zym-byn for prayer, though not nearly as much as English
> and Esperanto.
>
>> 9. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of
>> magical, religious, or incantatory terms?
>
> gjax-zym-byn has a good basic theological vocabulary, but I would
> hesitate to call it "rich" yet.
>
> Thaurilarau had some interesting terminology for concepts
> in the religion of its speakers.
>
>> *10. How many of you have striven to invent words that
>> express novel ideas, or are not expressed in any natural
>> language that you know?
>
> Yes, that's one of my favorite aspects of conlanging.
>
>> 11. Name a few of the words in your language(s) that you
>> are most pleased with and are the most original to you.
>
> {keq'pax} /k@'p&/: happy bewilderment. This is a mutation
> of an Englishesque word my brother coined, "kamestra".
>
> {pwiqm} /pwIm/: liquid water. Not original conceptually, but I like
> the onomatopoeic quality.
>
> {geq'diqm} /g@'dIm/: a wake-sleep cycle measured from one waking to
> the next.
>
>> 12. How do you sense that a word is "right" for its
>> meaning? How much do you labor at fitting a sound to its
>> sense? Or don't you care?
>
>> *13. Do you ever rely on a software program to build
>> vocabulary? Do those who don't think that's cheating? :)
>
> I used scripts to generate random words for some languages, but found
> the results unsatisfactory. In gjax-zym-byn every word has been
> hand-crafted, sometimes adapting a foreign word to gzb phonotactics,
> more often from scratch. I tend to reuse certain phonaesthemes, so
> words in /pw/ are apt to involve something pleasant and words in /G/
> or /q/ may be something unpleasant or dangerous, but this isn't a
> classificational language like Ro.
>
> If someone matches randomly generated words to a preexisting word-list
> (one they didn't create and haven't hand-edited much if any)
> I suppose I would consider that cheating, as being a kind of relex.
>
>> *14. Is conlang a hobby, a craft, or an art in your
>> mind? This has been hotly debated, so the question is
>
> All of the above.
>
>> not as weird as it seems. Can conlanging be considered an
>> art? Why or why not?
>
>> *15. If it is, who do you think are its consumers?
>
> If the language itself is the work of art, then only those who (to
> some extent) learn it could be considered its consumers. So most
> conlangs would have no consumers. But a well-designed *presentation*
> of the language (reference grammar or graduated lessons) can also be a
> work of art; any such is likely to have a number of other conlangers
> as its consumers.
>
>> *18. Why or why not would you eschew the metaphors
>> "miniature" or "model"?
>
> Those terms fit some conlangs very well: my own Llegisia, for
> instance. A more fully developed conlang is no longer just
> a model, though.
>
>> *19. Is a conlang more like a glimpse of something
>> lifesize? (Irina's suggestion in 2001)
>
> Depends on the conlang, I reckon. Thaurilarau (or my web presentation
> of it) would fit.
>
>> *20. There has been some invigorating discussion lately
>> about what a conlang can do that most natural languages
>> don't (such as produce OSV structure, or eradicate verbs)
>> What experiments have you made with your artlang(s) along
>> these lines?
>
> gjax-zym-byn has an open-ended set of postpositions. It has verbs,
> but many sentences consist of only postpositional phrases with no verb.
>
>> *21 What do you think distinguishes a conlang from a
>> natural language, if you think so at all? What would it
>
> Its history, of course. Some conlangs might be well-developed and
> naturalistic enough that they have no difference from natlangs per se
> except their short history; most of course are too small, too
> regular, or too unnatural to be mistaken for a naturally evolved
> language, but these are not inherent properties of conlangs.
>
>> *22. How much do you study other languages in order to
>> discover what is natural in language? Or to discover how
>> you can stretch the boundaries of language to make it do
>> things that are unnatural?
>
> I've studied the first elements of many languages. Lately I've been
> trying to find out more about postpositional languages, especially OVS
> and OSV languages, to validate or correct my design decisions
> w.r.t. gjax-zym-byn.
>
>> *23. Can such a language function?
>
> I don't know yet. Sometimes I can write in gjax-zym-byn fast enough
> that I hope I will be thinking fluently in it in just a few more
> months. Other times I despair, thinking I must have included some
> hopelessly unnatural feature that I am trying futilely to learn to
> use.
>
>> *24. There has been quite a bit of fascinating debate
>> about the relevance of conlanging to linguistic study. We
>> all know that linguistics can aid conlangers, but in what
>> ways can conlangers aid linguists? Or does it matter?
>
> It seems to me that one could study the limits of the human linguistic
> capacity by designing almost but not quite naturalistic conlangs and
> then seeing whether people can in fact learn to think in them and
> speak them fluently. That way, you could distinguish between
> universals of natural language evolution and universals of the way the
> human mind/brain work. The Lojban project seems sort of like this,
> and gjax-zym-byn is similar in some ways; but these hardly seem like
> true scientific experiments since we're changing many variables at
> once and have no control groups. A real experiment would involve two
> or more conlangs identical except for the one feature whose
> naturalness we're trying to determine; one might be a regularized
> relex of some natlang unfamiliar to the experimental subjects, the
> other would be the same but for one weird feature. The learners would
> not pick which conlang to learn or know whether they're attempting
> something most linguists think is impossible.
>
>> D. THE LISTSERV
>
>> 1. How did you first hear of this list?
>
> From Jeffrey Henning's homepage.
>
>> 2. How long have you been on this listserv or on other
>> related listservs? Continuously? Infrequently? Off and
>> on? More off than on and vice versa?
>
> Intermittently (more off than on) since 1996.
>
>> *5. How helpful has the list been in developing your
>> language? In learning linguistic information?
>
> It was pretty helpful in the early stages of gjax-zym-byn,
> and invaluable in my linguistic education.
>
>> *7. Do you peruse the websites of other conlangers?
>
> Yes.
>
>> *8. Do you sense that people on this list are interested
>> in your conlang and give you feedback on it?
>
> Sometimes, not often.
>
>> 9. Have you ever set out to learn at least a little bit
>> of someone's conlang, if only a word or two, or a phrase?
>
> I learned Toki Pona pretty thoroughly last summer, but quit using it
> during a long illnesss in the fall.
>
>> *10. Do you peruse Jeffrey Henning's Langmaker.com site?
>
> Occasionally.
>
>> *11. What on-line techniques do you use to showcase
>
> HTML.
>
>> 12. Have you ever tried to introduce a friend to the list?
>
> I mentioned it to a linguistics-inclined sf author I met
> at Worldcon last year; I don't think she showed up here,
> but I'm not sure because I went nomail myself shortly after.
>
>> 13. Do you know of anyone who does this kind of thing but
>> who has never heard of the list?
>
> I've heard of someone - a friend of a friend of my brother's
> - but haven't met him yet.
>
>> *14. What other lists do you frequent related to
>> conlanging?
>
> I used to be active on the Toki Pona list. Plus various lists
> relating to Esperanto, of course. I subscribed to use_your_conlang
> but it's been mostly inactive.
>
>> *15. What do you think will be the future of the list? I
>> see it giving birth to alternate lists like Conworld,
>> Lostlanguages, Romlang, etc. What improves the present
>> list and its helpfulness or entertainment value?
>
> The schisming of the list into more specialized lists may not be a
> good thing. The smaller lists tend to lack enough subscribers to keep
> steady conversation going.
>
>> *16. What Internet technology would you most like to
>
> I'm still figuring out how to represent gjax-zym-byn satisfactorily in
> Unicode.
>
>> *18. There has been some terrific talk about CONLANG as a
>> community. And yet so many of us seem to want the world to
>> know of it and respect it. Is the CONLANG community enough?
>
> I would like to be sure that everyone who does conlanging knows
> about the list, even if they then choose not to subscribe.
>
>> *19. .....
>> To what extent has
>> the list increased obsessive development in you? Would you
>> be inventing as furiously as you are without the list or
>> knowledge of other inventors?
>
> Some of my most active periods of work on gjax-zym-byn have been in
> during periods when I wasn't subscribed to CONLANG. But
> the list has been helpful in pushing me to flesh out aspects
> of the language that I might otherwise have overlooked.
>
>> 20. If asked whether it is not better to turn your
>> linguistic talents to the learning and speaking of natural
>> languages (a common response I've met with and aimed
>> at criticizing introversion or solipsism), how would
>> you answer?
>
> I don't see it as either/or. The time I spend conlanging is taken
> away from reading fiction, rather than from studying Greek. But I
> don't think I've gotten that response from anybody yet.
>
>> *22. What would Tolkien have done with such a community? He
>> writes in "A Secret Vice" that language inventors "hardly
>> ever show their works to one another, so none of them know
>> who are the geniuses at the game, or who are the splendid
>> 'primitives'." He suggests that perhaps in a later time
>> language invention will become respectable, and such things
>> can be exhibited. Have we reached that time?
>
> I reckon so. The audience for conlangs will always be small
> compared to the audience for narrative fiction, but it's large
> enough now to make it worthwhile to spend time editing one's
> grammar, lexicon etc. to make it fit for public
> consumption.
>
>> *23. Is there a danger that over-exposure can make
>> conlanging "banal"? To what extent is it exciting because
>> it is a) considered disreputable, "corny" or "mad," or b)
>> largely unknown to the world? Does it have a fizzle-out
>> date? In other words, is it just a fad, or is it a natural
>> human inclination that will stand the test of time?
>
> I find that, over time, I am less likely to be interested in reading
> through another conlanger's entire online grammar. This is probably
> because in many cases I've seen most or all the features before, in
> natlangs or other conlangs. But then I discover something like
> Ithkuil and my faith in humanity is restored. :)
>
>> Finally, may I have your permission to use any of this
>> material of yours for my academic work on conlanging? First
>> name? last name? pseudonym? anonymous?
>
> Yes, you may use my name.
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:45:17 -0400
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005
Sorry, this was supposed to go solely to Jim. Obviously, and I'm forgetting
how things work, he sent one to me and one to the list. Sorry for the waste
of bandwidth.
Sally
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:47:51 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sayings of the Wise #2
On Friday 22 April 2005 00:23 CEST, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 April 2005 10:52, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> > Never test the water with both feet.
>
> This presented a bit of a dilemma for Kélen. Apparently I
> don't have a word for "both". So, here are two solutions,
> you all decide which one you like better and let me
> know...
I haven't had either for a long time. I just derived it from
"two", _sam_ + _no_ = samno ["sAn:o].
BTW, I had a problem with Ayeri not having a word for "a
single foot" but only having the mass plural "feet" (by
intention - heck, there *must* be some obstacles!). So "two
feet" actually means "two pairs of feet". How would you
translate "both feet" (the two of your feet) then? Simply
"your feet"?
Also, I noticed when reading Henrik's reply on Sylvia
Sotomayor's mail that I mixed up location and tool. The
sentence would *correctly* be:
Tadoy eri lincu caronaris yilaicanin evaena.
Never TRG:INS try.IMP water.P feet.all.TRG 2sg.GEN
"Never try the water with all of your two feet."
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena Bahis Tenena,
15-A8-58-2-3-7-27 ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:30:51 -0400
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: how do I get a flippin' gmail account?
I know I'm repeating a million such requests, but I've seen gmail at work,
it looks convenient, I've heard the complaints ("watch header!"), but geez,
is it like the Junior League where you have to have a member "introduce" you
into the inner sanctum?
Wouldn't mind information, step by step, privately sent if you want.
Sally
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