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There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Natlang: Icelandic or Old Norse?
From: "Joseph a.k.a Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: OT: The Interpreter
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Date and time on Cindu
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: OT: The Interpreter
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. possessor
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: possessor
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. number system
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: possessor
From: "Joseph a.k.a Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: possessor
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: number system
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Natlang: Icelandic or Old Norse?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. irc://priscilla.ath.cx/conlang?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: irc://priscilla.ath.cx/conlang?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:34:40 -0700
From: "Joseph a.k.a Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Natlang: Icelandic or Old Norse?
Given
1. ["kE.ti.teU]
and
2. an average native-speaker of Icelandic (or Old Norse if you can imagine)
who's not a linguist:
Would the native-speaker most probably hear the final syllable of this word
[teU] or [ty] or what?
Thanks.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:09:34 -0700
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: The Interpreter
"taliesin the storyteller" wrote:
> * Gregory Gadow said on 2005-04-23 10:13:20 +0200
>> * Sally asked:
>> > Second, for those who've seen it, what was the African language they
>> had
>> > Nicole interpreting both ways in?
>>
>> Ku (Koo?), which the movie described as being a tribal language of the
>> Ku
>> people but spoken throughout south-east Africa.
>
> It is a conlang based on Shona and Swahili, see
>
> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002085.html
>
> Languagelog is one of my favorite blogs, I wholly recommend it.
Very cool! Thanks for the reference.
Gregory Gadow
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:50:07 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Date and time on Cindu
I haven't updated this for almost a year. Assuming I've done the math
correctly, at 1630hrs, today April 23, it was--
aro 1519, lero uwam 9, açulús, 754 p.v.
hour day mo. year (new count)
açulús is lit. "end/last month", i.e. the 16th mo. of their year.
just around sunset, 2nd day (uwam) of the 2nd week of the last month of the
year. The (N. Hemisphere) Vernal Equinox will take place in 20 days, and it
will be a new year, 755.
This, and corrected info about leap-years (3 per 19 years), will be added to
the website at some point soon.
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:14:16 -0500
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: The Interpreter
"Sally Caves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When Sylvia and Philippe met, they started out speaking in French.
> Switching to English in an extended dialogue is a very common film
> direction to avoid having to use subtitles.
One technique I've found for suggesting that a conversation is
in a foreign language without using subtitles involves de-synchronizing
the lip movements. If it worked in the English dub of Pinocchio (2002)
starring Roberto Benigni...
--
Damian
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:49:05 -0400
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: possessor
Today, I tought of something, even if I'm not actually planning to use it in
a conlang
Are there languages in which a verb can agree wich the possessor of a
nominal phrase?
Like if in a sentence as: "My cat eats your mouse", the verb "eat" would
agree in first person with the subject's possessor or in second person with
the object's possessor
Such a language could be (with random examples)
SVO
cat = gul
mouse = hude
to eat = kabin
Subject, possessor's person's sufixes:
1st = -je
2nd = -it
3rd = -ee
Object, possessor's person's prefix:
1st = je-
2nd = ge-
3rd = zo-
So:
gul kabin hude = the cat eats the mouce
cat eat mouse
gul jekabin hude = the cat eats my mouse
cat 3rd-eat mouse
gul gekabinje hude = my cat eats your mouce
cat 2nd-eat-1st mouse
gul jekabinit hude = your cat eats my mouse
cat 1st-eat-1nd mouse
gul zokabinee hude = his/her cat eats his/her mouse
cat 3rd-eat-3rd mouse
Is there something similar in any (nat/con)language?
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:29:22 -0500
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: possessor
On 4/23/05, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Today, I tought of something, even
if I'm not actually planning to use it in> a conlang> > Are there languages in
which a verb can agree wich the possessor of a> nominal phrase?> > Like if in a
sentence as: "My cat eats your mouse", the verb "eat" would> agree in first
person with the subject's possessor or in second person with> the object's
possessor
If find your wording kind of confusing here, but I do think that Iknow what
you're after.
> [snip]> So:> > gul kabin hude = the cat eats the mouce> cat eat mouse> > gul
> jekabin hude = the cat eats my mouse> cat 3rd-eat mouse> > gul gekabinje hude
> = my cat eats your mouce> cat 2nd-eat-1st mouse
What these remind me of more than anything is a use of the dativethat's common
in Greek and Romanian and many other languages. Thepossessor of the object of
the phrase in these languages is oftenexpressed through the dative case, so you
say in Romanian
Eu îþi leg papuciiI you-DAT tie the-shoes"I tie your shoes."
Over time the dative pronoun could easily fuse with the verb (and inRomanian
it's already a verbal clitic), giving rise to what youdescribe.
Problems are that (1) I've only ever heard of this being done with thepossessor
of the object, and (2) it seems to only make sense if theverb also agrees in
the normal manner with its subject and/or object.(2) is probably just an
artifact of the languages I know that dothis--I can't think of an a priori
reason not to have this be the onlyform of agreement.
-- JS [EMAIL PROTECTED]://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drinkI could tell you all about itI could tell you why I
doubtedAnd why I still believe." - Pedro the Lion
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:35:47 -0400
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: number system
I've created a new number system for my current conlang on which I work
(It doesn't have a name but let's call it "vbazi" for now, which means "I
speak")
It's a system based on 20
(I'll tell the phonetic for the numbers whose prononouciation is less
obvious)
from 0 to 19:
0 khe /k_he/
1 nii /ni:/
2 bije
3 naivy /naivE/
4 hiz
5 leje
6 digm /degm=/
7 jetha /jet_ha/
8 bvage
9 bawde /baude/
10 wag
11 gawvje
12 dyily /dEilE/
13 geivii
14 jape
15 nehe
16 khywpe /k_hEupe/
17 laza
18 hepq /hepN=/
19 maiwyi /maiwEi/
after there is a word for each number spaced of 20 from each others
20 zyn /zEn/
40 zib
60 kha
80 wele
100 jawe
120 niihi
140 ki
160 phym /p_hEm/
180 vgal
200 jyg
220 dzeige /dz)eige/
240 njab
260 byzdii
280 gewnai
300 tath /tath=/
320 qigl /Nigl=/
340 dadiwl
360 hyik
380 bwe
For the numbers between those, I simply paste a prefix corresponding to each
numbers from 1 to 19
That prefix is always made of the first (C)CV(V) sounds of the number
20 = zyn
21 = niizyn (from 1 = nii)
22 = bizyn (from 2 = bije)
23 = naizyn (from 3 = naivy)
24 = hizyn (from 4 = hiz)
300 = tath
315 = netath
318 = hetath
After there are words for higher numbers
400 = jawni
8000 = dja
160,000 = glai
These are multiplicated by any number from 1 to 19 and the numbers from 1 to
399 that I've explain can be added
so:
620165 (2x160 000 + 17x8000 + 10x400 + 15 + 160)
= bije glai laza dja wag jawni nephym
What do you think of it? Does it sound natural?
- Max
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:41:13 -0700
From: "Joseph a.k.a Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: possessor
Very cool idea.
> Are there languages in which a verb can agree with the
> possessor of a nominal phrase?
:: snip ::
As JS says, there are some natlangs which use the dative case for
possession, and that this could become an affix on the verbs. Some North
American Aboriginal polysynthetic languages use infixes & affixes to
designate beneficiary, agent, patient, etc. In Gremegr, my hive language,
every verb must have a beneficiary prefix and an agent suffix.
:: snip ::
> gul zokabinje hude = my cat eats his mouse
> cat 3rd-eat-1st mouse
My sense of symmetry wants to baulk at prefixing the owner of the object and
suffixing the owner of the subject even though I perceive that this could
result from it having evolved by affixing the dative in a Romance language.
I'm curious to know how you might handle noun possessors:
"My cat eats John's mouse."
"gul zokabinje Dzhan hude"? or = "gul kabinje Dzhan hude"?
and embedded clauses:
My cat, which my mother grooms, eats his mouse
Thanks.
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:09:55 -0400
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: possessor
On 4/23/05, JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> What these remind me of more
than anything is a use of the dativethat's common in Greek and Romanian and
many other languages. Thepossessor of the object of the phrase in these
languages is oftenexpressed through the dative case, so you say in Romanian> Eu
îþi leg papuciiI you-DAT tie the-shoes"I tie your shoes."> Over time the dative
pronoun could easily fuse with the verb (and inRomanian it's already a verbal
clitic), giving rise to what youdescribe.> Problems are that (1) I've only ever
heard of this being done with thepossessor of the object, and (2) it seems to
only make sense if theverb also agrees in the normal manner with its subject
and/or object.(2) is probably just an artifact of the languages I know that
dothis--I can't think of an a priori reason not to have this be the onlyform of
agreement.>
There are Mayan languages that use a very similar construction,marking the
possessor of the direct object as an indirect object. Orthe other way around
-- the direct object marked as possessed by theindirect object. Either way,
highly favored are sentences in whichthe indirect object (often a benefactive
object) possesses the directobject, and this sentence structure is used in many
instances where,in English, there is no indirect object or no possessor for the
directobject.
Here's a Tzotzil example from http://www.zapata.org/Tzotzil/
Ta xkik'be stzeb limol Xun
e.FUT 1st-marry-3rd-I.O.-3rd 3rd-daughter the big John TOPI'm going to
marry Big John's daughter.
The suffix -be indicates a 3rd person indirect object (in this caseBig John).
He's not "really" an indirect object, but in the absenseof some "real" indirect
object he ends up on the verb.
Also, if it's at all possible, the direct object will be marked aspossessed by
an indirect object.
Ijmanbe yixim li Xun
e.PRF-1st-buy-3rd-I.O.-3rd 3rd-corn the John TOPI bought John his corn.
Here's a question to consider: what happens when there's a string ofpossessors?
"The dog of the daughter of John." Who gets marked onthe verb? The first?
The last? All of them? (In Tzotzil it's thelast one: John.)
-- Patrick LittellPHIL205: MWF 2:00-3:00, M 6:00-9:00Voice Mail: ext 744Spring
05 Office Hours: M 3:00-6:00
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:38:23 -0700
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: number system
#1 wrote:
>
> What do you think of it? Does it sound natural?
It looks good to me.
You may be interested in looking at some of the Celtic languages like
Gaelic, Welsh and Breton; I believe they also use a base 20 counting
system. Traces of it can be found in English (a score of something) and
French (vignt=20; quatre-vignt=80)
Gregory Gadow
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:22:01 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Natlang: Icelandic or Old Norse?
Joseph a.k.a Buck skrev:
> Given
> 1. ["kE.ti.teU]
> and
> 2. an average native-speaker of Icelandic (or Old Norse if you can
> imagine) who's not a linguist:
>
> Would the native-speaker most probably hear the final syllable of this
> word [teU] or [ty] or what?
>
> Thanks.
I think a modern Icelandic speaker would hear
it as a mispronunciation of [tau] or [tou],
so the word would be spelled _getítá_ or
_getító_.
Old Norse had two possible diphthongs:
[Qu] spelled _au_ or [2y] spelled _ey_.
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:45:46 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: irc://priscilla.ath.cx/conlang?
Hey!
What has become of the List's IRC channel on priscilla.ath.cx? Everytime I
checked during the last weeks, there was nobody there.
Carsten
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:31:06 +0200
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: irc://priscilla.ath.cx/conlang?
* Carsten Becker said on 2005-04-24 19:45:46 +0200
> What has become of the List's IRC channel on priscilla.ath.cx? Everytime I
> checked during the last weeks, there was nobody there.
We're at freenode instead, irc.freenode.net
t.
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