There are 24 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: Lee 1b. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: <deinx nxtxr> 2a. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: David Edwards 2b. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: David Edwards 2c. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: Roger Mills 2d. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: David Peterson 2e. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: David Edwards 2f. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: Patrick Dunn 2g. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: David Edwards 2h. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: David Peterson 3a. Re: Future Englishes From: John Vertical 4a. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes From: Veoler 4b. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes From: Garth Wallace 5.1. Re: "Fiat lingua" in your conlang(s) From: Francois Remond 6a. Re: Languages Website From: John Vertical 6b. Re: Languages Website From: Lee 6c. Re: Languages Website From: Alex Fink 6d. Re: Languages Website From: Lee 7a. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters From: Roger Mills 7b. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters From: Eric Christopherson 7c. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters From: David Peterson 8a. Re: OT Place that you'd most like to live & reasons From: R A Brown 9.1. Re: False friends From: Eric Christopherson 9.2. Re: False friends From: Richard Littauer Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1a. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:59 am ((PDT)) --- On Fri, 8/27/10, <deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org> wrote: From: <deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org> Subject: Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 8:13 AM On 8/27/10 3:11 AM, Carsten Becker wrote: > A place with temperate climate, but less humid than this part of > Germany, and preferably where temperatures don't exceed 30 °C in summer > often, and where temperatures don't fall much below 0 °C in winter. Good luck with that one! Try the tropics. - - - - Vancouver, BC might work... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver,_British_Columbia#Climate Always wanted to visit, but IDK yet if I'd want to stay. Lee Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 1b. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:08 am ((PDT)) On 8/27/10 10:48 AM, Lee wrote: > --- On Fri, 8/27/10,<deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org> wrote: > > From:<deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org> > Subject: Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live& reasons > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu > Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 8:13 AM > > On 8/27/10 3:11 AM, Carsten Becker wrote: >> A place with temperate climate, but less humid than this part of >> Germany, and preferably where temperatures don't exceed 30 °C in summer >> often, and where temperatures don't fall much below 0 °C in winter. > > Good luck with that one! Try the tropics. > > - - - - > > Vancouver, BC might work... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver,_British_Columbia#Climate > > Always wanted to visit, but IDK yet if I'd want to stay. I want a place where it never goes below 60F or above 72F. Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:03 am ((PDT)) A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. PRES.SG will maybe home I ACC Finland Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo i ape po...eleumi. PRES.PL use they to (Europe?) there, PRES.SG it ACC one REL...(sky-some?). Mata ia i iko hita: see you ACC this (article?) I might move to Finland. (Not sure about the second sentence.) Check out this article. Ha, that was fun! I tried to gloss as much as I could using only the corpus materials--I was able to peg everything except "neo," "ape," and "umi." I thought "a" might be indicating present tense, and "au" might be indicating a plural, but I hadn't figured out yet that they were both indicating tense _and_ number. Could I get a hint on sentence #2? My response: Ík Koloráido mí eshithánthivin, ík Aláiska tenaìkúnkish. Déi mí eshithálmoòvin ashóanuè zizhóanuè tekáaiku. Náa goìán shí nùuvóazha shí nùevóas eshithásoòvin. Náa shíi, mosithások zhoskóahaliskazha, sisàovié íng kizhoskozhavinthiézhuthùira. Vocab (in order of appearance for easier translation): *k - conjunction marking two contrasting statements or constituents Kolor*do - Colorado m* - much esh*n - to be pleasant v* - 1st person Al*ska - Alaska ten*sh - home Déi - interjection introducing an explanation ash*nùe - snow zizh*nùe - cold tek*ku - mountain Náa - interjection, used for a lot of things--transitions between thoughts g*n - the area within arms' reach of the speaker, also a deictic reference for recently mentioned referents sh* - coordinating conjunction indicating abundance; "not only X but also Y" nùuv*zha - winter nùev*s - night Shíi - interjection introducing a point of concern mos*k - long zhosk*zha - summer s* - auxiliary verb *ng - negative particle k*ra - go zhuth* - south Noun morphology: stem-(incorporated ABL or INS)-CASE.NUM.STANCE-(inc. LOC or LATIVE)-stem Verb morphology I (1st or 2nd person agents without inc. ABL/INS): stem-PERSON.NUMBER.STANCE-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC or LAT)-stem Verb morphology II (everything else): stem-STANCE-(inc. ABL or INS)-(AGT)-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC or LAT)-stem "Stance" is analogous to register. Agent and patient nominals both take the direct case Incorporated ablatives indicate origins or causes. Incorporated instrumentals indicate route or duration. Incorporated locatives indicate location, possession, or sometimes something like a "topic" Incorporated latives indicate destinations or goals The potential mood can indicate capability or possibility. An internally-negated potential-mood verb can be marked with a negative particle to indicate necessity. ("It is not possible for me to not...") Affixes (in order of appearance): í - following STANCE, adjective/adverb marker ái - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, following STANCE i - following STANCE th - essential ASPECT, indicating an inherent, immutable trait á - intransitive VOICE, indicative MOOD nth - AGT/PAT classifier for places within the speaker's territory i - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, following STANCE, singular NUMBER i - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT argument, LOCATIVE case, following STANCE aì - first PERSON, singular NUMBER, following STANCE k - perfective ASPECT ú - transitive VOICE, indicative MOOD nk - AGT/PAT classifier for places outside the speaker's territory lm - AGT/PAT classifier for diverse groups oò - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, plural NUMBER óa - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, inanimate STANCE áai - direct CASE, plural NUMBER, following STANCE oìá - equative CASE, plural NUMBER, inanimate STANCE s - AGT/PAT classifier indicating abstract or odorless items o - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, singular NUMBER h - an epenthetic consonant inserted before incorporated roots beginning with vowels ào - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, ABLATIVE case, INANIMATE stance v - STATIVE aspect, indicates an inessential trait ié - INTRANSITIVE voice, POTENTIAL mood o - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, INSTRUMENTAL case, INANIMATE stance n - negative ùi - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT root, LATIVE case, FOLLOWING stance More info: http://feayran.webs.com/refgrammar On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:34 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 26, 2010, at 7â45 PM, Daniel Nielsen wrote: > > > Where on this globe at this time would you think you would most like to > > live? > > > A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo > i ape po...eleumi. Mata ia i iko hita: > > http://www.newsweek.com/feature/2010/the-world-s-best-countries.html > > A feya powi ima! ;) > > (A eyana Havai'i ani!) > > -David > ******************************************************************* > "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a." > "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." > > -Jim Morrison > > http://dedalvs.com/ > > LCS Member Since 2007 > http://conlang.org/ > Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:10 am ((PDT)) Ha! Typo: ...ík Aláiska tenaìk_uó_nkish... uó - TRANSITIVE voice, VOLITIVE mood On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:58 AM, David Edwards <dedwa...@stanford.edu>wrote: > A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. > PRES.SG will maybe home I ACC Finland > > Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo i ape po...eleumi. > PRES.PL use they to (Europe?) there, PRES.SG it ACC one REL...(sky-some?). > > Mata ia i iko hita: > see you ACC this (article?) > > I might move to Finland. (Not sure about the second sentence.) Check out > this article. > > Ha, that was fun! I tried to gloss as much as I could using only the corpus > materials--I was able to peg everything except "neo," "ape," and "umi." I > thought "a" might be indicating present tense, and "au" might be indicating > a plural, but I hadn't figured out yet that they were both indicating tense > _and_ number. Could I get a hint on sentence #2? > > > My response: > > Ík Koloráido mí eshithánthivin, ík Aláiska tenaìkúnkish. Déi mí > eshithálmoòvin ashóanuè zizhóanuè tekáaiku. Náa goìán shí nùuvóazha shí > nùevóas eshithásoòvin. Náa shíi, mosithások zhoskóahaliskazha, sisàovié íng > kizhoskozhavinthiézhuthùira. > > > Vocab (in order of appearance for easier translation): > > *k - conjunction marking two contrasting statements or constituents > Kolor*do - Colorado > m* - much > esh*n - to be pleasant > v* - 1st person > Al*ska - Alaska > ten*sh - home > Déi - interjection introducing an explanation > ash*nùe - snow > zizh*nùe - cold > tek*ku - mountain > Náa - interjection, used for a lot of things--transitions between thoughts > g*n - the area within arms' reach of the speaker, also a deictic reference > for recently mentioned referents > sh* - coordinating conjunction indicating abundance; "not only X but also > Y" > nùuv*zha - winter > nùev*s - night > Shíi - interjection introducing a point of concern > mos*k - long > zhosk*zha - summer > s* - auxiliary verb > *ng - negative particle > k*ra - go > zhuth* - south > > > Noun morphology: > > stem-(incorporated ABL or INS)-CASE.NUM.STANCE-(inc. LOC or LATIVE)-stem > > > Verb morphology I (1st or 2nd person agents without inc. ABL/INS): > > stem-PERSON.NUMBER.STANCE-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC or > LAT)-stem > > > Verb morphology II (everything else): > > stem-STANCE-(inc. ABL or INS)-(AGT)-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC > or LAT)-stem > > > "Stance" is analogous to register. > Agent and patient nominals both take the direct case > Incorporated ablatives indicate origins or causes. > Incorporated instrumentals indicate route or duration. > Incorporated locatives indicate location, possession, or sometimes > something like a "topic" > Incorporated latives indicate destinations or goals > The potential mood can indicate capability or possibility. > An internally-negated potential-mood verb can be marked with a negative > particle to indicate necessity. ("It is not possible for me to not...") > > > Affixes (in order of appearance): > > í - following STANCE, adjective/adverb marker > ái - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, following STANCE > i - following STANCE > th - essential ASPECT, indicating an inherent, immutable trait > á - intransitive VOICE, indicative MOOD > nth - AGT/PAT classifier for places within the speaker's territory > i - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, following STANCE, singular NUMBER > i - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT argument, LOCATIVE case, following > STANCE > aì - first PERSON, singular NUMBER, following STANCE > k - perfective ASPECT > ú - transitive VOICE, indicative MOOD > nk - AGT/PAT classifier for places outside the speaker's territory > lm - AGT/PAT classifier for diverse groups > oò - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, plural NUMBER > óa - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, inanimate STANCE > áai - direct CASE, plural NUMBER, following STANCE > oìá - equative CASE, plural NUMBER, inanimate STANCE > s - AGT/PAT classifier indicating abstract or odorless items > o - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, singular NUMBER > h - an epenthetic consonant inserted before incorporated roots beginning > with vowels > ào - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, ABLATIVE case, INANIMATE > stance > v - STATIVE aspect, indicates an inessential trait > ié - INTRANSITIVE voice, POTENTIAL mood > o - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, INSTRUMENTAL case, INANIMATE > stance > n - negative > ùi - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT root, LATIVE case, FOLLOWING stance > > > More info: http://feayran.webs.com/refgrammar > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:34 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Aug 26, 2010, at 7â45 PM, Daniel Nielsen wrote: >> >> > Where on this globe at this time would you think you would most like to >> > live? >> >> >> A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo >> i ape po...eleumi. Mata ia i iko hita: >> >> http://www.newsweek.com/feature/2010/the-world-s-best-countries.html >> >> A feya powi ima! ;) >> >> (A eyana Havai'i ani!) >> >> -David >> ******************************************************************* >> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a." >> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." >> >> -Jim Morrison >> >> http://dedalvs.com/ >> >> LCS Member Since 2007 >> http://conlang.org/ >> > > Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:34 am ((PDT)) > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu> > wrote: > > > Where on this globe at this time would you think you > would most like to > > live? You may choose the place that you are now > (perhaps you chose it > > expressly and are happy with the decision), should you > wish to maintain the > > sort of life you have, but it may be more fun if you > consider another > > place, > > for the sake of this thread. --- On Thu, 8/26/10, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote: > Might want to mark the subject of > this message with a big "OT" as I don't > see what it has to do with conlanging. That being > said, I'm interested to > hear what the diverse members of this list say. > OK, I'll bite... I seem to have a history of wanting to live in almost anyplace I visit, but seriously-- At least two Spanish speaking locations-- Barcelona, Buenos Aires. And Rio de Janeiro is (was, in 1967) a fantastically beautiful place. Bali, vintage 1972, before it was overrun with rich Americans...but the Balinese, I'm sure, are very resilient. More desirable from cultural activities POV: Boston; New York (vintage 1960, managed to live quite well on $100/week, if you can believe that. But, being gay, if I'd stayed there, I'd probably have died from AIDS long ago--leaving when I did surely saved my life). Most practical: never should have left Ann Arbor MI, where I lived from 1964-90. Good cultural scene, great Univ. resources. My dumpy little house was free and clear, and I'd be a lot better off financially, and would still be in better contact with friends in the area.... But the town _has_ become terribly yuppified and much more expensive. Obviously I'm an urbanite...no isolated small town for me!! (Grew up in one...and live in one now, groan.) Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2d. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:13 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 27, 2010, at 7â58 AM, David Edwards wrote: > A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. > PRES.SG will maybe home I ACC Finland Here, /pale/ means "to reside at". I was thinking of using some version of "Suomi" for Finland, but I wasn't happy with either Tuomi or Huomi... And also, the /male ua/ construction serves as a kind of conditional or hypothetical. > Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo i ape po...eleumi. > PRES.PL use they to (Europe?) there, PRES.SG it ACC one REL...(sky-some?). It might've helped if you'd guessed that Eulo was "Euro". In other words, they use the Euro there (which I see as a plus). The second is a bit hard to figure out: And it's number one (or first) in...everything. Here, "in" is translated with "po", which *can* be a relative marker, but is also just a regular preposition that means "with respect to", among other things. > Mata ia i iko hita: > see you ACC this (article?) "Site". Could've been "tita", I guess, but I was feeling "hita" at the moment... > I might move to Finland. (Not sure about the second sentence.) Check out > this article. Don't forget the bit about the music at the end! I'm a big fan of Finnish metal. > Ha, that was fun! I tried to gloss as much as I could using only the corpus > materials--I was able to peg everything except "neo," "ape," and "umi." I > thought "a" might be indicating present tense, and "au" might be indicating > a plural, but I hadn't figured out yet that they were both indicating tense > _and_ number. Could I get a hint on sentence #2? It looks like you found /neo/ somewhere (the glossary?). Funny, the closest you get at the Word of the Day is /neoe/, which means "to kill" (not quite the same!). That usage of "ape" is a bit colloquial... I'll add a sentence with it to the corpus so it'll be somewhere visible. /Eleumi/ means "everything", and I don't think you can figure that out by the sum of its parts ("sky" + "some"). And regarding /a/ and /au/, they indicate tense, number of the subject and the subject's status. That's why, most of the time, you don't need conjunctions in Kamakawi: they're implied. > More info: http://feayran.webs.com/refgrammar Forgive me if I totally just cut out your response, but I just came across something astounding on your site. Everyone, check this out! http://feayran.webs.com/lexicon.html I know a lot of people here use Excel or some equivalent for their dictionary. Evidently if you use Google docs, you can incorporate it right into your website! Amazing! Incidentally, did I read right? You prefer Alaska to Colorado? I gape at you... -David ******************************************************************* "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a." "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." -Jim Morrison http://dedalvs.com/ LCS Member Since 2007 http://conlang.org/ Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2e. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:20 pm ((PDT)) > > It might've helped if you'd guessed that Eulo was "Euro". In other words, > they use the Euro there (which I see as a plus). The second is a bit hard > to figure out: And it's number one (or first) in...everything. Here, "in" > is translated > with "po", which *can* be a relative marker, but is also just a regular > preposition > that means "with respect to", among other things. > Oooh, of course! (For a while I was wondering if "Eulo pe" was actually "Europe" split into two words for some reason :P ) The alternate usage for po seems intuitive now that it's been spelled out for me. "Site". Could've been "tita", I guess, but I was feeling "hita" at the > moment... > > Aha, a loanword! Does Kamakawi lack /s/? *checks...* By Jove, it does! Does [s] show up as an allophone for anything? Don't forget the bit about the music at the end! I'm a big fan of Finnish > metal. > Ack, forgot that part! A feya powi ima! PRES.SG (play? a form of feyo?) (I'm guessing...music?) (intensifier) A eyana Havai'i ani! PRES.SG good Hawaii also Hawaii would be nice too! > It looks like you found /neo/ somewhere (the glossary?). Funny, the closest > you get at the Word of the Day is /neoe/, which means "to kill" (not quite > the > same!). That usage of "ape" is a bit colloquial... I'll add a sentence with > it to > the corpus so it'll be somewhere visible. /Eleumi/ means "everything", and > I > don't think you can figure that out by the sum of its parts ("sky" + > "some"). > > Yep, when I couldn't find /neo/ in the corpus, I cheated and pulled it up on the Glossary page. The /eleumi/ compound is nifty! > Incidentally, did I read right? You prefer Alaska to Colorado? > I gape at you... > ( :D You did! Pardon me while I do a little "somebody translated Feayran" dance... ) Gí ué! Ík anitháktiìshìe tekáaikoloridoku, ík tenaìkónthisùosh, gí shí tekéeiku shí oànìeshléi mivívinilkus. New vocab: Gí - interjection indicating excitement or happiness Ué - interjection introducing an important piece of information Gí ué! - expresses merriment in response to something that has just happened an*shiè - beautiful (changes via tone sandhi to an*shìe in the text) oànìeshl* - ocean m*s - around, nearby n*lku - the area outside the speaker's territory (incorporable root form of the -nk- classifier), or a pronoun to refer to previously-mentioned locations outside the speaker's territory (-nk- can serve this function too) New affixes: kt - AGT/PAT classifier for large prey animals; sometimes used for large trees or large land formations iì - when part of an AGT/PAT marker, plural NUMBER, following STANCE ó - transitive VOICE, subjunctive/hypothetical MOOD éei - locative CASE, plural NUMBER, following STANCE éi - locative CASE, singular NUMBER, following STANCE í - intransitive VOICE, subjunctive/hypothetical MOOD > -David > ******************************************************************* > "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a." > "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." > > -Jim Morrison > > http://dedalvs.com/ > > LCS Member Since 2007 > http://conlang.org/ > Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2f. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:45 pm ((PDT)) Cadaeum sae Calaefeornaeam, ze co pear lou aeli. Aca ceadu si Siacagoum maun ve yae yul. ael -- sun aca -- but cadu -- dwell (governs accusative) lou -- and mau -- give par -- wine sae -- first person nom. pronoun si -- in, at, by, near sul -- joy ve -- on yae -- first person acc. pronoun ze co -- because of (governs the gen.) affixes that might not be obvious: -ae- optative -m -- first person singular present -n -- third person singular present Some nouns decline with suffixes; others undergo an initial consonant mutation or infix Word order is usually VSO, but in practice is pretty free. Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2g. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:12 pm ((PDT)) > > Cad<ae>u-m sae Calaefeorn<ae>a-m(?), ze co p<e>ar lou ael-i. Aca c<e>adu > si Siacagoum mau-n ve yae yul. > "I'd like to live in California for the wine and sunshine, but I really like living in (Siacagoum?)" Náa tenilonuvávikalifingiàsh léogonn, shíi ninvánolku ashóanuè eshisàonthánkivin! l*n - time, instance Kalif*ngià - California (hint: léogonn from root l*n, incorporating g*n; "now/of late") éo - locative CASE, singular NUMBER, inanimate STANCE n - AGT/PAT classifier for water-related things Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 2h. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:44 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 27, 2010, at 3â18 PM, David Edwards wrote: > Aha, a loanword! Does Kamakawi lack /s/? *checks...* By Jove, it does! Does > [s] show up as an allophone for anything? Nope. Neither Kamakawi nor Hawaiian has any need for [s]. :) > A feya powi ima! > PRES.SG (play? a form of feyo?) (I'm guessing...music?) (intensifier) "Feya" means "wave", but here is a verb meaning "to be awesome". >> Incidentally, did I read right? You prefer Alaska to Colorado? >> I gape at you... >> > > ( :D You did! Pardon me while I do a little "somebody translated Feayran" > dance... ) Heh, heh... It's slow going, but rewarding. Reminds me of translating into or reading Epiq: http://dedalvs.com/epiq/ Still and all, I gape at you for the content of your statement. ;) On Aug 27, 2010, at 4â08 PM, David Edwards wrote: >> >> Cad<ae>u-m sae Calaefeorn<ae>a-m(?), ze co p<e>ar lou ael-i. Aca c<e>adu >> si Siacagoum mau-n ve yae yul. >> > "I'd like to live in California for the wine and sunshine, but I really like > living in (Siacagoum?)" Chicago, no? -David ******************************************************************* "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a." "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." -Jim Morrison http://dedalvs.com/ LCS Member Since 2007 http://conlang.org/ Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3a. Re: Future Englishes Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:09 am ((PDT)) >Eugene, it's possible I messed that up; it's the first time I've used CXS >publicly. I was using fauxnetics in parentheses, and at least attempting to >use CXS in the main list. :/ If you might be able to help me polish up (eg >point out any glaring issues), advice is appreciated. > >Dan You appeared to be using /A/ for the FACE vowel, at least. It's actually /e/, or /eI/ if you prefer. /A/ or /A:/ is usually used for the vowel you mark'd as /a:/ (ie. CALM, in most American varieties also BOTHER). --- I've had my own future English cooking for a while, with both sound and syntax changes lined up. It's still in flux and I definitly need to look into Spanish loanwords for example, but the non-intelligibility is coming along greit :) And now the same in the 'lang itself: Aiz dún yau mai yaun fyoca Angrex khokeng fwá ú váyu, veu bu xian ún sendrakh chinjaiz dún lán úp. Etz bei teu en frú ún aiz daferli ñeir chio lo endro Pánex lunor fwá jiampu, bút da nún-anteljebeldriz khúmeng lúng gwic :) ú á a v ñ x xi c ci j ji h = /i\ A & v\ J s` s\ ts` ts\ z` z\ _h/, everything else should be pretty clear. Vowel length is unmark'd here (still too many kinks to work out ) I'm quite unsure about however about the fact that currently, prevoiced lengthening (ie. /bæt bæd/ being [bæt bæ:d]) ends up having no effect on monofthongs; it's essentially lost as a subphonemic detail. There are probably also many irregular changes that have alreddy occur'd but I'm missing due to not actually living in the area I'm going to place the language (southern US) John Vertical Messages in this topic (11) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 4a. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes Posted by: "Veoler" veo...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:23 am ((PDT)) Eric Christopherson wrote: > I'm wondering if any language has a morphological (or even syntactic) marker > that applies to a base and changes its meaning in an incremental way. For > example, suppose a voice hierarchy: > > 1) causative > transitive > intransitive > passive > impersonal. > > Would any language have a single affix or particle that attaches to a > causative verb to make it transitive, as well as attaching to a passive verb > to make it impersonal, rather than just a marker for transitive and a marker > for impersonal? I think I've heard of examples of morphology changing > intransitive to passive and passive to impersonal, but I don't know if > there's ever systematic incremental movement all along the hierarchy. > My conlang has several voices both to increase and decrease the valency (and to manipulate the argument structure in other ways), and a word (there's only one part of speech) could be marked repeatedly with any number of affixes. One of the voices to increase the valency is the causative, and one of the voices to decrease the valency is the passive. You could add ten causative affixes to a monovalent word to get a word with a valency of 11, then add eleven passive affixes to get a word with a valency of 0. The argument structure of an active word (= unmarked for voices) is determined by argument structure inflection, and it could have a valency between 0 and 3. The root itself has no argument structure. -- Veoler Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 4b. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:04 am ((PDT)) On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote: > I'm wondering if any language has a morphological (or even syntactic) marker > that applies to a base and changes its meaning in an incremental way. For > example, suppose a voice hierarchy: > > 1) causative > transitive > intransitive > passive > impersonal. > > Would any language have a single affix or particle that attaches to a > causative verb to make it transitive, as well as attaching to a passive verb > to make it impersonal, rather than just a marker for transitive and a marker > for impersonal? I think I've heard of examples of morphology changing > intransitive to passive and passive to impersonal, but I don't know if > there's ever systematic incremental movement all along the hierarchy. My Ilion treats voice affixes as derivational, so it's possible to stack them. A ditransitive verb can be passivized three times to derive an impersonal. Causatives don't take part in this, though: causative constructions are periphrastic. My original idea was to have two different "passive" markers, one that would promote the patient of a ditransitive to subject, and one that would promote the recipient. Both could be used to passivize verbs with valency > 3, but would differ in volition. I have no idea if that's naturalistic or not though. Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 5.1. Re: "Fiat lingua" in your conlang(s) Posted by: "Francois Remond" opinio...@free.fr Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:52 am ((PDT)) >24. aug. 2010. 24.46 "Lars Finsen" wrote: > I see. Sounds like a heavily animated film. Is your Neo-Gaulish used in a > Gaulish setting, or is it only used for its exoticness, or what? The language is supposed to be used in an introduction scene taking place in a remote "Gaulish" time. Most of the film, however, dealing with a young boy struggling with an ancient malediction, is set in the present time. >> If you're interested, I can send you the translated parts from the >> dialog on your private mail. > Yes, thanks, that would be nice. Ok, I'll send it on your website mailbox > Ok. Meanwhile check up that celticaconlang link I mentioned. I'll do that. Thanks ! Regards ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Finsen" <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:45 PM Subject: Re: "Fiat lingua" in your conlang(s) > Den 24. aug. 2010 kl. 19.04 skreiv Francois Remond: >> >> In fact, the movie for which it was commissioned is still in production >> : It will be called "Les Monstres" and is by director Luc Roué. >> (I was told the production have been delayed). > > I see. Sounds like a heavily animated film. Is your Neo-Gaulish used in a > Gaulish setting, or is it only used for its exoticness, or what? > >> If you're interested, I can send you the translated parts from the >> dialog on your private mail. > > Yes, thanks, that would be nice. > > In fact, I'd be surprised if this weren't of interest to the list as > well. But maybe you aren't allowed to publish it. > > You do have my address? > >>> Will you keep working with Neo-Gaulish? >> >> Well, I thought of it as a one-time artistic project but I still keep my >> drafts for grammatical basis and vocabulary in store if another >> opportunity shows up... > > Ok. Meanwhile check up that celticaconlang link I mentioned. There is one > guy there who's constructed a Modern Gaulish language, what he thinks > would have been the outcome if the language had still existed. With yours > we will soon have a full diachronic set. > > LEF > Messages in this topic (43) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 6a. Re: Languages Website Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:28 am ((PDT)) The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for all things phoneme inventory: http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html Also, re: Wikipedia, you are aware of this page, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:PHON John Vertical Messages in this topic (9) ________________________________________________________________________ 6b. Re: Languages Website Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:24 pm ((PDT)) --- On Fri, 8/27/10, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote: The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for all things phoneme inventory: http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html - - - - Just don't expect the counts to be completely accurate across the tables, though the values work well for ballpark estimates. Lee Messages in this topic (9) ________________________________________________________________________ 6c. Re: Languages Website Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:50 pm ((PDT)) On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:52 -0700, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote: >--- On Fri, 8/27/10, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for >all things phoneme inventory: >http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html > >Just don't expect the counts to be completely accurate across the tables, though the values work well for ballpark estimates. I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but -- though UPSID is entirely awesome, there are traps in it for the unwary, the counts especially. For instance, I've seen more than once people come away from UPSID statistics thinking that /t/ is a relatively uncommon phoneme, more languages lacking it than having it! That's highly misleading at best. What's at the root of it is that UPSID counts dental, alveolar, and dental/alveolar (what, variable? not precisely described?) separately, and there are resp. 23.50, 40.13, and 34.15 percent of langs with the three varieties. So nearly all langs do have a nice voiceless anterior coronal plosive, as we expect. In general, one must watch out for the fact that convention plays a large part in what symbol we choose for a phoneme! And so the number of languages which have a phoneme *which that lang's describer chose to name /r/*, or whatever, doesn't necessarily tell you what you want about nature. Alex Messages in this topic (9) ________________________________________________________________________ 6d. Re: Languages Website Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:37 pm ((PDT)) --- On Fri, 8/27/10, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Languages Website To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 3:48 PM On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:52 -0700, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote: >--- On Fri, 8/27/10, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for >all things phoneme inventory: >http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html > >Just don't expect the counts to be completely accurate across the tables, though the values work well for ballpark estimates. I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but -- though UPSID is entirely awesome, there are traps in it for the unwary, the counts especially. ... Alex - - - - Yes, the counts are what I'm referring to.... But double-checking my spreadsheet, I see I made a mistake in my lookups. The usage counts all cross check now, except for "h2". Lee Messages in this topic (9) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 7a. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:43 am ((PDT)) --- On Fri, 8/27/10, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 26, 2010, at 9â26 PM, Roger > Mills wrote: > > > Who was inquiring about this back in May (or so...)? > I've had another reply from a man just back from New Guinea; > he worked on a language called Srenge (Aruop in Ethologue) > that has such clusters; in fact one form cited has NC+NC. If > you're still interested in the question, let me know and > I'll forward his msg. to you. > > Hey, I'm interested! Perhaps you can post the relevant part > to the > list? OK, here it is: ========================================================= In one of the languages I work on, Srenge (called Aruop in Ethnologue), a Torricelli language, there is extensive consonant clusters of the form C1-C2, where C2 is a prenasalized stop. Note that the prenasalized stops in Srenge are all allophones of what we analyse as voiced stops. However, these are overwhelmingly the most common allophone, prenasalization being absent only in word-initial position and even here they are generally prenasalized in word-initial position in continuous speech. The prenasalization is much weaker and sometimes apparently absent after /l/. Perhaps the most extreme case I can find on a quick search is the following in which a prenasalized b is preceded by a prenasalized d which is in turn preceded by a w. w-nd-mbIr-NgE 3sg.fem.subj-refl/recip-light.fire-applic 'she lit a fire for herself' (where I is barred i, E is schwa, nd is a prenasalized d, mb is a prenasalized b, and Ng is a prenasalized g) This form also contains an r before a prenasalized g. The major qualification I need to make is that these clusters are typically broken up by weak epenthetic schwas, so at a phonetic level the prenasalized stops are typically preceded by weak vowels, not consonants. This is true for all three cases of consonants preceding prenasalized stops in the above form. Matthew Dryer On Sun 06/06/10 1:07 AM , Roger Mills rfmi...@msn.com sent: > .hmmessage P {margin:0px;padding:0px;} body.hmmessage > {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Thanks to everyone who > responded to the inquiry. Lots of good observations and data. A > private email from Anastasia Riehl included a ref. to her > dissertation on the subject of prenasalized consonants-- an extremely > interesting and complete study of the question, which I pass along for > those who are interested and may not be aware of her work-- > > Riehl, A. (2008) The Phonology and Phonetics of Nasal-Obstruent > Sequences. Ph.D. Dissertation, Cornell University > A pdf is available (through a link under [her] name) > at:http://ling.cornell.edu/index.cfm/page/people/alum.htm > > Roger Mills Messages in this topic (5) ________________________________________________________________________ 7b. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:07 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 27, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Roger Mills wrote: > w-nd-mbIr-NgE > 3sg.fem.subj-refl/recip-light.fire-applic > 'she lit a fire for herself' > > (where I is barred i, E is schwa, nd is a prenasalized d, mb is a > prenasalized b, > and Ng is a prenasalized g) > > This form also contains an r before a prenasalized g. > > The major qualification I need to make is that these clusters are typically > broken up by weak epenthetic schwas, so at a phonetic level the prenasalized > stops are typically preceded by weak vowels, not consonants. This is true for > all three cases of consonants preceding prenasalized stops in the above form. > > Matthew Dryer Heh... I'm reminded of the Futurama character Ndnd, which (IIRC) used to be pronounced /In"dINd@/, but now they're pronouncing it /n=d@"n=d@/. Messages in this topic (5) ________________________________________________________________________ 7c. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:33 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 27, 2010, at 11â39 AM, Roger Mills wrote: > Matthew Dryer Wait a minute... The "man back from New Guinea" is Matthew Dryer? THE Matthew Dryer from the University of Buffalo?! Are you kidding me?! Roger, you been holding out on us! The Matthew Dryer wrote: > w-nd-mbIr-NgE > 3sg.fem.subj-refl/recip-light.fire-applic > 'she lit a fire for herself' > > (where I is barred i, E is schwa, nd is a prenasalized d, mb is a > prenasalized b, > and Ng is a prenasalized g) That is nuts! It's one thing to have two prenasalized consonants in a row--quite another to to have it form an initial consonant cluster beginning with [w]! Well, I think that answers that question once and for all. On Aug 27, 2010, at 1â05 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > Heh... I'm reminded of the Futurama character Ndnd, which (IIRC) used to be > pronounced /In"dINd@/, but now they're pronouncing it /n=d@"n=d@/. Ha! I noticed that too last night. I always thought the name was pronounced [In.'de...@]. I loved that name, in fact. I was quite taken aback by the new (evidently native) pronunciation. I'll take it, though, if it means more Futurama. :) -David ******************************************************************* "Sunlü eleÅ¡karez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze." "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." -Jim Morrison http://dedalvs.com/ LCS Member Since 2007 http://conlang.org/ Messages in this topic (5) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 8a. Re: OT Place that you'd most like to live & reasons Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:38 pm ((PDT)) Daniel Nielsen wrote: > Oops, Daniel, sorry to start an OT, but at least I now > know what OT means, and it seems to be working out :) My > feelings were that the responses might have something to > do with the language of the place and what that might > have to do with the culture. Much more likely to do with climate & environment, methinks. > I saw some other OTs, so I > thought I was in the clear, but at least I'm learning :) Oh yes, off topic threads are not exactly unknown here ;) Sometimes I think rather than OT, MOT (mildly off topic) and WOT (way off topic) could be useful ;) ------------------------------------ Carsten Becker wrote: > A place with temperate climate, but less humid than this > part of Germany, and preferably where temperatures don't > exceed 30 °C in summer often, and where temperatures > don't fall much below 0 °C in winter. That seems to describe pretty much where I live :) (SE England, just a tad sou'west of London) Which means I'm fairly happy where I am. The only part of the USA I know is New England (my daughter lives in greater Boston) and just about every place I've been to there I like; if by some twist of fate I had to finish my days there, I think I'd like it well enough (tho the winters are somewhat cold!) When I spent Christmas & New Year in the Cape in South Africa, I could happily have stayed there. If I did, I'd certainly have a go at learning some Xhosa; but that was _not_ the reason I wanted to stay. 'Twas the climate and the wonderful scenery. Of the many places I've visited on holiday, I really would like to go back to Peru again. It was great there up on the altiplano (the visit to the Amazon jungle was interesting, but I'd certainly not want to live there - too hot & too humid). But I'm not sure I'd really want to live there the rest of my days - but if I did, as well getting to grips with Spanish (fortunately the Peruvians seem to speak it at a rather more rational speed than they do in Spain!), I'd want to get to grips with Kichwa (Quechua) as well. But that's not why I'd like to revisit the country - it's because besides being a lovely country, the people there were so warm and welcoming. -- Ray ================================== http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt, wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun." [J.G. Hamann, 1760] "A mind that thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language". Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 9.1. Re: False friends Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:53 pm ((PDT)) On Aug 17, 2010, at 4:36 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote: > On 17 August 2010 07:50, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I can think of actuallement(presently) > > > I remember it as the bane of the French student of English: "actually" means > "en fait", "réellement" (really), while "actuellement" means "presently". > It's one of the worst faux amis to remember! And in English, "presently" can mean either "currently" or "soon" (and archaicly "immediately")! Messages in this topic (110) ________________________________________________________________________ 9.2. Re: False friends Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:56 pm ((PDT)) Gene Wolfe, in one of his Science Fiction books, has one of his characters state that they can't understand how people in olden times could have the same word for "the present time" and "a gift". Same sort of thing. On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net>wrote: > On Aug 17, 2010, at 4:36 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote: > > > On 17 August 2010 07:50, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I can think of actuallement(presently) > > > > > > I remember it as the bane of the French student of English: "actually" > means > > "en fait", "réellement" (really), while "actuellement" means "presently". > > It's one of the worst faux amis to remember! > > And in English, "presently" can mean either "currently" or "soon" (and > archaicly "immediately")! > Messages in this topic (110) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join (Yahoo! 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