There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Angosey turns 12
From: Jim Henry
2a. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
From: Garth Wallace
3a. Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
From: Adam Walker
3b. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
From: Patrick Dunn
3c. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
From: Garth Wallace
4. Re: My old web site WAS: re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: Adam Walker
5a. Re: Naming systems
From: MorphemeAddict
5b. Re: Naming systems
From: Anthony Miles
5c. Re: Naming systems
From: Garth Wallace
6a. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Eugene Oh
6b. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Samuel Stutter
7.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: David Johnson
Messages
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1a. Re: Angosey turns 12
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:47 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> September 3rd has arrived, the Angosey new year and the de-facto birthday of
> the language.
Congratulations! gjâ-zym-byn is about six months older than Angosey,
but has perhaps a less romantic history.
> This is the last year in which more of my life has been lived
> before Angosey than after. Next year, the language will be exactly half my
> age, after which my life with Angosey will be longer than my life without.
For gzb that milestone won't arrive until 2023, if I should live so
long. Inverting the form of the comparison, though, I realize that
I've lived with the Internet for about half my life, plus or minus a
few months.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 9:59 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What I think is the strangest, though, is the stop + affricate system -- it
> violates pretty hard the dictum that affricates nearly always pattern as
> extra places of stops. Why should voiceless stops be aspirated but
> voiceless affricates not? (Okay, maybe 'cause the affricate release ate the
> aspiration somehow.) What happened to the breathy-voiced aspirates?
> On which topic, that system of phonation contrasts could probably exist, if
> unstably; I'd expect to see it looking about like Western Armenian in a few
> centuries. (And it's good that there's both /h\/ and breathy stops.)
I'd say, though I'm hardly an expert, that affricates pattern as a
third type of release (no release, aspirated, affricate). The palatal
affricates are a partial collapse of the system, the palatal aspirated
stops having merged with the affricates and the palatal unaspirated
stops having merged with another POA (e.g. /c/ -> /k/). How's that
sound?
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:15 pm ((PDT))
So, I just discovered what is painfully obvious -- CSX, like IPA, is
woefully underequipped to represent clicks. I just spent the last two hours
trying to figure out ad hoc CSX symbols to try to represent what is going on
in one of my weirdest languages (probably a tie with Q~'u^p!). I know that
some of the things I describe below as "clicks" are likely not clicks, in
the techncal sense, since the MOA is not precisely what is desribed by the
IPA in defining a click, but I lack whatever might be the proper
terminology, so elucidation would be appreciated.
First of all I will list my cobbled symbols, only some of which are real
CSX:
0_0\
0\
|\
!\
=\
|\|\
|\|\_2
=`\_-
=\_G
=\_?
Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
*might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) -- no
IPA
0\ is standard CSX for a bilabial click -- K uses m! (IIRC) -- IPA uses
target
|\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
(IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
!\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K uses
t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
=\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC) --
IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
|\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double pipe
|\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
else would use!
=`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the tongue
contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
=\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA probably
says no such beast exists
=\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however shoddy
my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
=\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
"popping" sound ensues.
=\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis to
make a vacuum. The closure is released and a sound like that used in
cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
Any way this bizarre mess is the total phoneme enventory of the language.
Suggestions for better descriptions and/or representations of the phonemes
would be greatly appreciated.
Next post I will show the revamped romanization I plan to use now, which
will necessatate a name change.
Adam
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:42 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, I just discovered what is painfully obvious -- CSX, like IPA, is
> woefully underequipped to represent clicks. I just spent the last two hours
> trying to figure out ad hoc CSX symbols to try to represent what is going on
> in one of my weirdest languages (probably a tie with Q~'u^p!). I know that
> some of the things I describe below as "clicks" are likely not clicks, in
> the techncal sense, since the MOA is not precisely what is desribed by the
> IPA in defining a click, but I lack whatever might be the proper
> terminology, so elucidation would be appreciated.
>
> First of all I will list my cobbled symbols, only some of which are real
> CSX:
>
> 0_0\
> 0\
> |\
> !\
> =\
> |\|\
> |\|\_2
> =`\_-
> =\_G
> =\_?
>
> Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
> *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
>
> 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) -- no
> IPA
Circle with a dot in it? If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
could put a comma under it.
> 0\ is standard CSX for a bilabial click -- K uses m! (IIRC) -- IPA uses
> target
Ahh, yeah.
> |\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
> (IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
> !\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K uses
> t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
> =\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC) --
> IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
Looks like a pipe to me.
> |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double pipe
> |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
> else would use!
maybe a superscript small L.
> =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the tongue
> contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
I can't do that without pain.
> =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA probably
> says no such beast exists
Yeah, no sign for that in IPA. One of the problems I have with it is
that a click uses suction in the mouth and there isn't much space once
I restrict at the velum to create enough suction for anything but a
sucking/choking sound. Again, a bit of pain.
> =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
> crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
I'm not sure this is physically possible.
>
> I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however shoddy
> my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
> other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
I'd have to hear them. Hell, I'd probably have to see a spectrogram
of them. :) Not that that'd do much good; I'm awful at reading
spectrograms.
> Any way this bizarre mess is the total phoneme enventory of the language.
> Suggestions for better descriptions and/or representations of the phonemes
> would be greatly appreciated.
Well, if it's the whole phoneme inventory, you can do without the !'s,
it seems to me.
>
> Next post I will show the revamped romanization I plan to use now, which
> will necessatate a name change.
>
> Adam
>
I look forward to seeing some of the grammar.
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:09 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:14 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> |\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
> (IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
> !\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K uses
> t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
! is postalveolar, I think. You'd probably use the pipe for both, but
with the dental diacritic (flat-side-up underbracket in IPA, _d in
CXS) applied to the first one.
> =\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC) --
> IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
> |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double pipe
> |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
> else would use!
What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
accomplish the former.
> =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the tongue
> contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
I think you'd just use the postalveolar click symbol.
> =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA probably
> says no such beast exists
> =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
> crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
I don't think these can exist. The place of articulation must be
between the airstream mechanism (velar, for clicks) and the outside
air, or no sound is produced.
> I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however shoddy
> my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
> other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
>
> =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
> the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
> "popping" sound ensues.
>
> =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis to
> make a vacuum. The closure is released and a sound like that used in
> cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
Messages in this topic (3)
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4. Re: My old web site WAS: re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:42 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:37 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> If you're talking about Adam's site, I don't know that one (but I'm
>> >> interested too!).
>> >>
>> >> -David
>> >>
>> >
>> > It's really not worth the synapse firings necessary to express
>> curiosity.
>> > Most of the languages there are documented by inane statements like
>> > "pronouns inflect for caste and gender" without giving any examples of
>> said,
>> > and that's once your eyes adjust to being blinded by trying to read
>> yellow
>> > text on a luring red-orange background of embroidery! There are a
>> couple of
>> > gifs of writing systems worth a glance and a full table of pronouns for
>> one
>> > language. A couple have example texts and microglossaries. The conlang
>> > content is trash. Not the languages themselves, but the
>> "documentation."
>> >
>> > Adam
>> >
>>
>> Well, I started searching through the archives for posts I had made about
>> Graavgaaln to refresh my memory before I start an overhaul of the project,
>> and came across a post where Jörg refers to my poorly documented mess
>> saying
>> "Indeed, some of your languages are lovably bizarre." So I guess I'll
>> embarrass myself and post the link.
>> http://reocities.com/athens/4745/glossopoeicindex.html
>> It really is not much to look at. Don't curse me for the eyestrain, or
>> the
>> disappointing content. I have plans (which may or may not materialize in
>> the next couple of months) to revamp some or all of these languages and do
>> some *real* documentation of them -- mainly because I have decided to go
>> back and work on the novel I was developing them for once I finish the
>> novel
>> I'm currently working on.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>
Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:48 pm ((PDT))
A quick search on Google reminded me that a sai is an Okinawan weapon (used
by Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles et al.). Very few personal names in the
results, but lots of acronyms.
stevo
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Sai Emrys <s...@saizai.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu> wrote:
> > Are you considering the semantic intermingling with the Hindi "sai"
> > (aspirated; "saint/divine master", so it is in a sense somewhat similar
> to
> > English "mister/master")?
>
> No, for a few reasons. One is that some "religious" folk of this sort
> (e.g. Sathya Sai Baba) are IMO repugnant con artists, and I don't want
> to encourage such an association.
>
> The second is that I feel no particular national/cultural/familial
> affiliation. (This is partly the reason for wanting to drop "Emrys" as
> well; I dislike the implied Welsh affiliation.) Your suggestion would
> imply a Hindi affiliation.
>
> I think that I'm rather rare in this; arguably an effect of in large
> part growing up online? So in a sense I want names to work almost like
> handles do - if not completely globally unique, then reasonably so.
> Hardly sustainable with the actual global population, but there are
> surprisingly few competitors for good nondescriptive handles.
>
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > All the Roberts and Davids, Bobs and Daves, etc. may need further
> identification at times, but Sai (so spelled) is AFAIK unheard of in English
> speaking cultures
>
> Indeed. Which means I am in a reasonably good position to have the
> mononym and still be nigh globally unique for the contexts I'm in.
> Kinda rare for such a short and easily pronounced/remembered name.
>
> - Sai
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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5b. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 11:03 pm ((PDT))
The Pi'naax (the speakers of Na'gifi Fasu'xa) have certain patterns, but these
are not rigid. Male-patterned (CVCVCV) names are bestowed on males, female-
patterned (CVVCCV) ones on females; nonce-patterned (especially diminutives
acquired in early childhood) ones are epicene. The masculine plural names
often refer to chiefly lines or a line of noted craftsmen, but these are not as
firm as clan names. Female plural names can become indicators of a line of
craftspeople, if the progenetrix or most famous member was female. If a
Pi'naxa must travel to another village, he may use the name of the village to
identify himself, but this is expediency, rather than custom. In other
situations, any relative or characteristic that helps to distinguish one from
another is used.
My name, if I were to visit them, would be "antuni mainis". I don't know
what "natuni" means, but "antuni" is a masculine singular (probably active)
verb form. Likewise, I don't know what "manisi" means (Proto-Na'gifi
Fasu'xa "something" + "hard [-si]" = ?), but "mainis" is a feminine singular
nominal form, suggesting that I choose to use a matronymic rather than a
patronymic.
Messages in this topic (17)
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5c. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:24 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 2:48 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was in the army, I knew a fellow soldier named just "Han". We weren't
> close, though, so I don't know anything about how his name affected his
> life.
So it was just Han, solo?
Messages in this topic (17)
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6a. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:42 am ((PDT))
On 4 Sep 2010, at 03:47, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Peter Collier wrote:
>
>> ...shire .../S@/ - e.g. Worcestershire /w...@s@/
>
> Where/when would one say /SI@/ instead of /S@/? Does that depend on the
> accent of the person saying it, or is it built into the pronunciation of the
> place?
>
Never, IME. Always /S@/. Compare "sheriff" < shire reeve.
>>
> Also, _-chester_ is pronounced /tS)Est@/, not /tS)@st@/, right? I believe it
> has a full vowel in US usage. My personal style is to use a full /{/ in
> _Lancaster_, but I think the place in Pennsylvania is pronounced locally as
> /"l...@st@r/.
I've heard both reduced and full vowels. But the reduced form dominates.
>
>>
Eugene
Messages in this topic (23)
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6b. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 4:38 am ((PDT))
On a Manchester note,
I must say, that despite the R.P. (please excuse the "for dummies"
transcription, I'm on someone else's computer) *man-chest-uh* it's usually
pronounced *man-chuhs-tuh*, which is suprising (it aught to be *man-chuhs-uh*,
because the Mancunian accent tends to replace non-initial "t" with a glottal
stop).
What always confuses visitors is my town / city district 's name: Altrincham
*ol-tring-um*. The home of the people of some guy who's name started with
'Alt...'
________________________________________
From: Constructed Languages List [conl...@listserv.brown.edu] on behalf of
Eugene Oh [un.do...@gmail.com]
Sent: 04 September 2010 08:41
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
On 4 Sep 2010, at 03:47, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Peter Collier wrote:
>
>> ...shire .../S@/ - e.g. Worcestershire /w...@s@/
>
> Where/when would one say /SI@/ instead of /S@/? Does that depend on the
> accent of the person saying it, or is it built into the pronunciation of the
> place?
>
Never, IME. Always /S@/. Compare "sheriff" < shire reeve.
>>
> Also, _-chester_ is pronounced /tS)Est@/, not /tS)@st@/, right? I believe it
> has a full vowel in US usage. My personal style is to use a full /{/ in
> _Lancaster_, but I think the place in Pennsylvania is pronounced locally as
> /"l...@st@r/.
I've heard both reduced and full vowels. But the reduced form dominates.
>
>>
Eugene
Messages in this topic (23)
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7.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "David Johnson" lethketa-boa...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Sat Sep 4, 2010 6:25 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 3 Sep 2010 20:38:06 -0700, Sai Emrys <s...@saizai.com> wrote:
>On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:38 AM, David Johnson
><lethketa-boa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> I guess this situation is one we will encounter more as time goes on.
>> Perhaps the LCS needs to develop a policy?
>
>I think that it would be no problem for the LCS to provide permanent
>online hosting for:
...
>b) archival versions of conlang-related websites of people who are
>permanently incapacitated (e.g. by death)
...
>
>But I think that Jim's response is very apt. This is not something
>that the LCS per se can do much about other than to provide the web
>space.
>
...
>
>On the positive side, pretty much any of you could assist in this if
>you wanted to.
>
>- Sai
I appreciate that the LCS is a voluntary body and that members are short of
time, as they are in most voluntary bodies. I wasn't thinking so much that
it should have an active role, though. As you and Jim say, individuals
beyond the LCS can do more.
I was thinking more that the society might be the most appropriate body to
co-ordinate conservation work, preventing duplication etc. Just as museums,
libraries and archives tend to have national co-ordinating councils. That
may involve no more than providing space (as you say) and perhaps a list of
preservation projects?
Messages in this topic (33)
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