There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Naming systems
From: Roger Mills
2a. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Roger Mills
3a. How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
From: Nathan Unanymous
3b. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
From: John Vertical
3c. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
From: David McCann
4a. Re: Luggnaggian
From: Matthew Turnbull
5a. Re: Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
From: Anthony Miles
6a. Re: And/or
From: Anthony Miles
7. Náŋifi Fasúxa Annotated Babel Text 11:1-3
From: Anthony Miles
8a. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: Alex Fink
8b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: John Vertical
9. Llárriésh (Llama) Trilinear Babel - Genesis 11:1-9
From: Richard Littauer
10a. Na'vi Experts Camp
From: Richard Littauer
10b. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp
From: Brett Williams
10c. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp
From: Richard Littauer
11a. Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
From: Peter Bleackley
11b. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
From: Adam Walker
11c. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
12a. Re: Graavgaaln grammar
From: Adam Walker
13a. Re: Graavgaaln phonology the syllable
From: Adam Walker
14a. Re: Unnamed Language Phonology
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
15a. Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
From: Gary Shannon
15b. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
From: Jerry Muelver
15c. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
From: Logan Kearsley
15d. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
From: Larry Sulky
Messages
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1.1. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:04 am ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 9/6/10, Brett Williams <mungoje...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [The Yanomamo's) taboo against saying someone's name became even
> stronger in
> death. Speaking a name of the dead could draw
> malevolent attention
> from their spirit. When someone died, their name was
> laid aside and
> "never" said again (in practice the taboo would last at
> least a few
> months). The most interesting part is, people were
> named ordinary
> words, and those words would not be used after their death
> even for
> their normal purpose!! They'd just have to use some
> sort of
> circumlocution for the duration of the taboo.
>
That taboo is apparently quite widespread. It seems to account, in many
Austronesian languages, for divergences in vocabulary that skew peoples'
lexicostatistical analyses (boo hoo). It's known to be (or have been) present
in one well-recorded language, Bare'e of Central Sulawesi (now called Pamona)--
the 1920s dictionary by N. Adriaani has dozens of taboo-substitute words for
common items. Some are loans, some are adaptations of other lexemes, some are
just mysterious.... it's all very interesting.
Messages in this topic (30)
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2a. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:06 am ((PDT))
--- On Wed, 9/8/10, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote:
> > Okay, maybe that's unremarkable epenthesis, but it
> could well be *slight
> > involuntary shudder* the same rationale that makes
> Yreka, California be
> > /waIr\ik@/ and so on -- how in the world do such
> things seem compelling to
> > anyone!?
>
> Wow, before I got to the pronunciation, I was sure you were
> going to say it was /j@"rik@/, like how some people
> pronounce Yvonne /j@"van/. (Not to mention Yvgeny on
> Delocated.)
>
A common, and much ridiculed, mispronunciation of Ypsilanti [Ips@'lænti]
Michigan (named after a Greek hero IIRC) is [jIps@'lænti]
Messages in this topic (15)
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3a. How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
Posted by: "Nathan Unanymous" nathanms...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 11:09 am ((PDT))
How did English <u> get to be pronounced both /U/ and /V/? I have a conlang
with a similar vowel system, in which /U/ and /V/ are allophonic with rules so
complex an entire book was written on it by my conworld's linguist.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:46 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:05:54 -0400, Nathan Unanymous wrote:
>How did English <u> get to be pronounced both /U/ and /V/?
Generally, it's a split conditioned by the preceding consonant: [U] remains
after labials ("butcher", "full", "push", "wolf", "woman" - but not /m/ for
some reason; "much", "mud"), and becomes [V] elsewhere.
This then became phonemic for various reasons, including the loaning of
words like "putt" and I think "tush" from northern dialects that did away
with [U] entirely, and the introduction of secondary [U] from contraction of
/u:/ before certain consonants. The latter most regularly occur'd before /k
d/ ("book", "food", etc.) but there seems to have been some variation
("flood, blood"; "foot, soot", still /u:/ in some British dialects IIRC; in
many dialects "roof", "room"). This didn't affect /ju:/ (might have still
been /iU/ by the time), which was yet later reduced to plain /u:/ after /l
r/, hence we again get /u:k/ in words like "fluke". "Spook" seems to be a
later loan from Dutch?
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:12 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 14:05 -0400, Nathan Unanymous wrote:
> How did English <u> get to be pronounced both /U/ and /V/? I have a conlang
> with a similar vowel system, in which /U/ and /V/ are allophonic with rules
> so
> complex an entire book was written on it by my conworld's linguist.
The sequence of changes in Southern England was
cut: kÊt > kɤt > kÊt > kÉt (USA), kat (UK)
foot: fuËt > fÊt
This is a good example of the falsity of the Neogrammarian theory. If
English were an ancient, imperfectly attested language, we would explain
the contrast of "butcher" [bÊt] and "butter" [bat] as dialect mixture.
But we cannot have a rule that /Ê/ remains after a labial, making
"butter" a loan, because there is no English dialect from which it could
be borrowed (having [pat] for "put"). And we cannot explain all cases
of /Ê/ after a labial as loanwords from the north, because there are no
exceptions in odd corners of Cornwall or Sussex; it's ridiculous to
expect that every village in Southern England would have borrowed
northern forms for common words like "butcher, pull, full", even where
they maintained local forms like /viËld/ "field".
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Luggnaggian
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 12:30 pm ((PDT))
Fluft drin Yalerick Dwuldum pra -stra -d mirplush.
Language my mouth friend be.at-REALIS-stem trans.imperfect
SOV word order, with Posessee Posessor order
fluft language
drin 1sg
yalerick mouth
dwuldum friend
prad be.at
-stra- realis
mirplush transitivizer with imperfect aspect
Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 7:57 pm ((PDT))
Possibly I am misidentifying some of the "voiceless" vowels (I _can_ pronounce
the distinctions). Or maybe not. The vowels are meant to be pronounceable,
but not necessarily well or easily by us humans. The vowels, slightly barky,
are key here. I can alter the consonantal "allophones" around, if it seems
advisable, although I guess I have to use /c/ and /j/ now since it's in the
name of the language. I'm generally more interested in the grammar of a
conlang than making it pretty.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: And/or
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:06 pm ((PDT))
I'm not sure about "or", but "and/with" in Na'gifi Fasu'xa is /pataka'/, the
prepositional form of /pataka/ "have/hold". /pu'mafa pataka' ti'gafi pumafa'
pu'mafa/ means "I and my brother" (the /pumafa'/ is the genitive prepositional
construct).
Semantic note: The preposition /pataka'/ has an equal sense, whereas the
related participles /a'ptaka/ and /apta'ka/, "holding" and "being held",
describe
unequal relationships. Make of that what you will.
Messages in this topic (18)
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7. Náŋifi Fasúxa Annotated Babel Text 11:1-3
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:16 pm ((PDT))
1:1 áptaka atkatí kámanu maníŋa náŋifi ŋáfisu náŋifi fasúxa.
The whole earth had one language [and] a common tongue.
áptaka active vb (msg), to hold
atkatí adv (msg) distal past
kámanu n (msg) world, subject of sentence
maníŋa adj (msg) whole, entire; modifies kámanu
náŋifi n (msg) language, direct object of sentence
ŋáfisu adj (msg) one; modifies náŋifi
náŋifi second direct object
fasúxa adj (msg) common; modifies náŋifi
11:2 apuuxpuut atkaus pínaax. íkmaus atkaus ŋásiup kananu kanafú Sinán.
áknaaf atkaim kanaaf ŋásiup.
The people easted. They found the plain at Shinar. They dwelt there.
apuuxpuut v (mpl) to east; reduplicated form of xáputu, the east
atkaus adv (mpl) medial past
pínaax n (mpl) man
íkmaus v (mpl) to find
ŋásiup pron (mpl) 3rd person; Subject of sentence
kananu n (msg) plain; object of sentence
kanafú prep (msg); at; takes case and gender of kananu
áknaaf v (mpl) to stay there
atkaim adv (mpl) proximal past
kanaaf -adv (mpl) there
11:3 ínxiip atkaim ŋásiup tamaaŋ ŋásiaf. úŋxauk aŋsiúx
púmaaf túnais uŋxáuk.
úŋxauk aŋsiúx ukŋait púmaaf ŋásiup. úŋxuuk atkaim
ŋásiup túnais uŋxáuk.
úŋxuuk atkaim aŋsiix ŋásiup túnais. ú&#331;xuuk atkaim
ŋásiup Tas. úŋxuuk atkaim
aŋsiix ŋásiup Mustas.
They said to one another. Let us burn burned stones. Let us burn them well.
They used burned stones. They did not use stones. They used tar'. They did
not use mortar.
ínxiip v (mpl) to say
tamaaŋ prep (mpl) journey/to; modifies ŋásiup
ŋásiaf pron (mpl) self
úŋxauk v (mpl) to burn
aŋsiúx adv (mpl) jussive
púmaaf pron (mpl) we
túnais uŋxáuk n + pass ptcpl burnt stones= bricks
ukŋait adv (mpl) greatly, thoroughly
úŋxuuk v (mpl) to use
aŋsiix adv (mpl) negative particle
Tas - tar
Mustas - mortar
Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:26 pm ((PDT))
On dental/alveolars, I always thought the category was meant for sounds
which were ambiguously dental or alveolar, or not so specified in the
source. But the other day I was looking up these categories of Wikipedia,
and there they follow a different set of conventions:
"dental" is what I'd more explicitly call dental laminal, "alveolar" is
alveolar apical, and "denti-alveolar" is used for alveolar laminal.
Kaleissin, you were going to get the UPSID book? It'd be good to check
whether they're doing a similar thing...
Alex
Messages in this topic (12)
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8b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:11 am ((PDT))
>On dental/alveolars, I always thought the category was meant for sounds
>which were ambiguously dental or alveolar, or not so specified in the
>source. But the other day I was looking up these categories of Wikipedia,
>and there they follow a different set of conventions:
>"dental" is what I'd more explicitly call dental laminal, "alveolar" is
>alveolar apical, and "denti-alveolar" is used for alveolar laminal.
>
>Kaleissin, you were going to get the UPSID book? It'd be good to check
>whether they're doing a similar thing...
>
>Alex
"Denti-alveolar" is not particular to Wikipedia, it does really mean that.
However I don't think this is the same as UPSID's "dental/alveolar".
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (12)
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9. Llárriésh (Llama) Trilinear Babel - Genesis 11:1-9
Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:44 pm ((PDT))
Here is the Babel text for Llárriésh (also called Llama), which was a one
month project that I attempted. I had in mind the idea that it would be good to
create a language entirely from scratch within a month, with some initial
paramaters, and I think I did pretty well. More details can be found on the
languages home at my Conlang website: http://llama.conlang.org
Any thoughts would have course be very appreciated.
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
1. Dodhéna bo ia á llevóda ram ó dolleva hóni ro dáoíyúmiones.
1. world(subj) begin whole the(hypothetical) language(predicate) one and
speech(predicate) common attribution is-progressive-durative-stative-sg..
2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
2. east-toward now man-pl. move-intransitive-imperfective-continuative-
seriative-pl.. (they(subject)) plain(object) then Shinar in
find-perfective-pl..
(they) settle-perfective-transitional-pl..
2. Abétuá as llára póanôráwaïnakéon. Bho gum Shinar fo horówon.
Súmówohowon.
3 They said to each other, Come, lets make bricks and bake them
thoroughly. They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
3. Rúntátuá gum frótáon pó tûn wuá odháon! Tûn as gona aíu oák ó híkti
nátoríyétéíktion. Rrí gon thon nefá radon ó soronu dalúna üç dáo.
3. he(4p.)-pl.-reflexive(subject) then say-imperfective-pl. indirect.speech
we(truncated)(subject) hortative come-imperfective-pl.! we(trnc.)(subj.) now
brick-pl.(object) topic make and thoroughly bake-progressive-distributive-
terminal-pl.. so (they)(subject.) brick(object) stone instead.of use-pl. and
tar
mortar for(instrumental) is.
4 Then they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that
reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not
be scattered over the face of the whole earth.
4. Rûn gum frótáon pó wuá odhon! Tûn túntátuá ásh góré gôr kúna kûn
rrhískats li ro hewnashî dáoshî weïnáyaïnon, ró ken túnátuá ásh oákówon ó
nuçhllára yowúll dodhéna ia kyu na rodaowóas.
4. they(4p. trnc.)(subj.) then say-impf.-pl. indirect.speech hortative
(we)(subj.) come-pl.! we(trunc.) we(trnc.)-pl.-rflx. for(purpose) city
relative.clause tower rel.cl. heaven towards attire. reach-subordinate is-sub.
build-impf.-cont.-pl., so.that(purpose) name we(trnc.)-pl.-rflx.- for(purpose)
make-perf.-pl. and scattered(trnc.)-man-pl. face earth whole genitive over
negation-is-perf.-momentaneous.
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were
building.
5. Bó Ngádhol á 'ünskóes. Kuná kûn ó góré gôr llára weïníyétéîsh á adaní
óawáún.
5. but Lord the descend-perf.-sg.. tower rel.cl. and city rel.cl. man-pl. make-
prog.-dist.-subord. the want(modal verb) see-impf.-infinitive.
6 The LORD said, If as one people speaking the same language they have
begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
6. Ngádhol á kla frótóes pó dínta ô rúnódan ram dáo. Ki ô llevoda dásh
frótéllon. Fáu fén fuó dawáódaícúon, fái hui rrodu dû ovawáon dashîún goy
hwéi ók daóún.
6. Lord the then say-perf.-sing ind.sp. they(3p.pl) generic.mood people one is.
also gen.m. language same speak-iterative-pl.. if as this(abstract) act-impf.-
diversative-inceptive-pl., then definite no-thing rel.cl plan-impf.-pl. do-
subord.-inf. able future deduced.information do-perf.-inf..
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand
each other.
7. As da odhas. Tûn wúa 'ünská ó llevoda dîn kyu peshiló oho dîn díntátuá
royënówon.
7. now imperative come-moment. We(trnc.) hort. descend-impf. and language
they(trnc.) genitive confuse-perf. so.that(resultative) they(trnc.) they-refl.
neg.-understand-perf.-pl..
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped
building the city.
8. Rrí Ngádhol á rûn nuçhfinâróes kópa muc dodhéna ia na, ó rûn góré á kúp
weïníyún.
8. so Lord the they(4p. trnc.) scatter-transitive-perf.-sg. there from world
whole over, and they(4p. trnc.) city the stop build-prog.-inf.
9 That is why it was called Babel because there the LORD confused the
language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the
face of the whole earth.
9. Fá thó Peshil ken góré kyu dáo. Kópa hóra Ngádhol á llevoda á dodhéna ia á
kyu peshilóes. Ngádhol bóúkti á rûn kópa muc yowúll á dodhéna ia kyu
nuçhfinâróasúkties.
9. that(abstract) reason Confuse name city genitive is. there because Lord the
language the world entire the genitive confuse-perf.-sg.. Lord
end.of.story(share.information-terminative) the them(trnc.) there from face
the world entire genitive scatter-transitive-perf.-moment.-term.-sg..
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10a. Na'vi Experts Camp
Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:51 pm ((PDT))
Some of you might like to know that Na'vi is continually growing in interesting
ways. Most recently, it was announced today that there will be a small
conference and camp for a handful of experts in the language - as far as I
know, exclusively from the fan site www.LearnNavi.org - who will meet with
Paul Frommer for a weekend in California to talk about the state of the
language, what else can be done to get the word out, ask questions, and the
like. Here's the bulletin that was posted publicly today about it:
§
A Na'vi Workshop is to happen this year the first weekend in October! This
workshop will allow us to work with him, in person, for a few days to better
understand and flesh out some aspects of the language.
The history: a while back, Karyu Pawl expressed interest in getting some of
the most advanced Navi speakers in one place for a workshop to discuss and
learn more about the language. This workshop would allow us to work with Dr.
Frommer over the course of a couple days to learn the language more
completely, identify points that need to be expanded, and address some of the
prominent outstanding questions about the language. This knowledge would be
documented by the attendees of the workshop and brought back to the
community for the benefit of everyone. Essentially, this is a teach the
teachers workshop.
The event will take place in California at a members private residence over
the course of October 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Well have roughly 15 members
coming from all across America and even overseas. Additionally, a phone
conference line will be set up for a couple of hours during one of the days so
some of our more linguistically engaged members overseas who couldnt
travel could participate for one of the days of the workshop. Karyu Pawl is
very excited for this as I hope we all can be. His willingness to travel
several
hundred miles for this meeting at his own expense is a good indication of
Karyu Pawls commitment to this language and this community and we cant
thank him enough.
Now, unfortunately, we have some bad news regarding the workshop but we
want to stress this to avoid any hurt feelings.
At Dr. Frommers request and for the sheer logistics of the workshop we had
to limit the number of people who could attend. Given the scope of our
community we had a hard choice on how to come up with a fair way by which
we could decide who should be invited as well as whether the planning should
be public or not and how the event should be coordinated and announced.
The moderators of the website decided that the fairest system would be a
panel composed of several founding members of the website that would
nominate potential members to be included. We nominated the members who
were either the most active in the language and forums or who we felt were
the most advanced with the language and would benefit the most from this
workshop. Once ordered, we messaged the members and asked if they were
interested and able to commit the time and to travel to the workshop. If a
member declined then they were given the chance to nominate someone in
their place or the next person in line was then asked, and so on until all the
spots were filled.
Now, we understand that there may be some hurt feelings for those who were
not invited. Ayoheru txoa livuyu. We deeply apologize. Limiting the number of
participants for this particular meeting was at Pauls request and simply based
on the practicality of accommodating the group at the available venue. We
would have loved to have everyone who wanted to come be able to join us but
that simply is not feasible this time. This is not intended to be a purely
social
event. The idea here is to teach the teachers in our community and the
original planners coordinated carefully with Karyu Pawl about his ideas on how
to approach that goal.
However, if you still feel some injustice has been done to the community,
please contact me or one of our administrators in private. Keep in mind, this
is unlikely to be the only time Karyu Pawl meets with members of the
community. We fully intend to try to continue to work with him so that in the
future there will be more broadly open opportunities for our members to meet
with him in person.
Do not worry though, there will be pictures, updates, videos, and more from
this event. Everyone who is a part of our great community will have the
chance to learn from the results of the meeting and thereby benefit greatly.
We cant give enough thanks to Karyu Pawl for donating his valuable time for
this workshop, nor to the organizers of the workshop, to the administrators of
LearnNavi.org, and to you, the members of LearnNavi.org; without whom this
could have never happened nor could this language have attained such
success.
Your constructive comments and questions are welcome here below, and if
you have Navi language-specific topics that you still feel need answers,
please make sure that they are captured in the Language Updates section in
http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/. Please
read through all of the posted themes and questions before adding more. Your
question may already be slated in the mix. Approximately 10 days from now
we (ALL OF US in the community) will be voting on which are the most
important to the language overall to help Karyu Pawl prioritize how he handles
getting them addressed.
In closing, thank you to everyone at LearnNavi.org, everyone who is learning
Navi or has shown support for us, and especially to Dr. Paul Frommer and
James Cameron, without whom this great language and great movie could
never have even existed.
§
Should be interesting! This is the most publicly advertised conlang currently,
that I know of. The fact that it was part of the highest grossing movie of all
time secures that position above Klingon or Elvish, I think...
Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp
Posted by: "Brett Williams" mungoje...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 10:05 pm ((PDT))
My word! I knew Na'vi was successful, but the very idea of a conlang
gathering having to be concerned with LIMITING the number of
attendees... that's rather blowing my mind. I haven't even seen
Avatar yet (I rarely watch movies), but I suppose I ought to check it
out. Huh.
<3,
la stela selckiku
aka
mungojelly
aka
bret-ram
aka
veret'he
aka
brett
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10c. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp
Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 10:06 pm ((PDT))
Well, considering that www.LearnNavi.org has well over 5k members, it's not
surprising at all. A couple of hundred of those are intermediates, and a
couple of score of those could probably be called experts (Myself included.
I am hoping to find a way to subsidise a transatlantic flight so I can make
it from Scotland.) It is in no way a small community, anymore.
And Avatar is ok - but the language is better. :P
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Brett Williams <mungoje...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My word! I knew Na'vi was successful, but the very idea of a conlang
> gathering having to be concerned with LIMITING the number of
> attendees... that's rather blowing my mind. I haven't even seen
> Avatar yet (I rarely watch movies), but I suppose I ought to check it
> out. Huh.
>
> <3,
> la stela selckiku
> aka
> mungojelly
> aka
> bret-ram
> aka
> veret'he
> aka
> brett
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 1:44 am ((PDT))
I had an idea for a very odd morphosyntactic allignment yesterday.
There are two genders, animate and inanimate.
In intransitive sentences, the subject is always unmarked.
In transitive sentence, the subject is unmarked if is animate. The
object will then be marked as accusative, regardless of its gender.
If the subject is inanimate, it will be marked as ergative. The object
will then be unmarked, regardless of it's gender.
So far, vaguely plausible. Then I had a look at what might happen with
ditransitive sentences, and it started to get weird.
If the recipient is animate, it will be marked the same way as the
object of a monotransitive sentence. In this case, if the theme is
inanimate, it will be marked the same way, so that theme and recipent
are distinguished by their animacy. However, if the theme is animate, it
will be marked as secundative.
Inanimate objects, however, are marked as dative. In this case, the
theme will be marked as if it were the object of a monotransitive
sentence, regardless of its animacy.
What do people think of this?
Pete
Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:47 am ((PDT))
Um, wow. I'd need an if/then flow chart just to say hi. Cool.
Adam
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Peter Bleackley <
peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> I had an idea for a very odd morphosyntactic allignment yesterday.
>
> There are two genders, animate and inanimate.
> In intransitive sentences, the subject is always unmarked.
> In transitive sentence, the subject is unmarked if is animate. The object
> will then be marked as accusative, regardless of its gender.
> If the subject is inanimate, it will be marked as ergative. The object will
> then be unmarked, regardless of it's gender.
>
> So far, vaguely plausible. Then I had a look at what might happen with
> ditransitive sentences, and it started to get weird.
>
> If the recipient is animate, it will be marked the same way as the object
> of a monotransitive sentence. In this case, if the theme is inanimate, it
> will be marked the same way, so that theme and recipent are distinguished by
> their animacy. However, if the theme is animate, it will be marked as
> secundative.
> Inanimate objects, however, are marked as dative. In this case, the theme
> will be marked as if it were the object of a monotransitive sentence,
> regardless of its animacy.
>
> What do people think of this?
>
> Pete
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:28 am ((PDT))
On 9 September 2010 16:43, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Um, wow. I'd need an if/then flow chart just to say hi. Cool.
>
>
Actually, you'd be amazed by the amount of stuff that we just internalise
that would blow our minds it we described it in actual rules. Humans are
incredibly good at internalising patterns, even very complex ones (to the
point we actually often see patterns where there are none. Our brains are so
good at that they create lots of false positives :P ). Sometimes, when I see
for instance the conjugations systems extant in various Amerind languages, I
just can't quite understand how people can actually conjugate those verbs
effortlessly!
As for the morphosyntactic alignment Peter describes, it is slightly odd,
but between the various kinds of active languages and the various treatments
of ditransitive verbs in languages, I don't feel it's particularly weird.
But I need to draw a graph to really get our the various participants
interact ;) .
> Adam
>
> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Peter Bleackley <
> peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I had an idea for a very odd morphosyntactic allignment yesterday.
> >
> > There are two genders, animate and inanimate.
> > In intransitive sentences, the subject is always unmarked.
> > In transitive sentence, the subject is unmarked if is animate. The object
> > will then be marked as accusative, regardless of its gender.
> > If the subject is inanimate, it will be marked as ergative. The object
> will
> > then be unmarked, regardless of it's gender.
> >
> > So far, vaguely plausible. Then I had a look at what might happen with
> > ditransitive sentences, and it started to get weird.
> >
> > If the recipient is animate, it will be marked the same way as the object
> > of a monotransitive sentence. In this case, if the theme is inanimate, it
> > will be marked the same way, so that theme and recipent are distinguished
> by
> > their animacy. However, if the theme is animate, it will be marked as
> > secundative.
> > Inanimate objects, however, are marked as dative. In this case, the theme
> > will be marked as if it were the object of a monotransitive sentence,
> > regardless of its animacy.
> >
> > What do people think of this?
> >
> > Pete
> >
>
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: Graavgaaln grammar
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:49 am ((PDT))
Same on this one. Three days seemes too long even for email sent with
sticky-jelly fingers.
Adam
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's what I know about the grammar of Graavgaaln:
>
> Word order is SOV.
>
> Pronouns and nouns show case. Object, Benefactive and Instrumental are
> attested and marked with suffixes. Locative is handled with a postposition.
>
> Number is marked on nouns.
>
> Possessor-possessed. Possession is shown with the word <nezh> which comes
> between the two persons/objects being related.
>
> Verbs show number, person and tense and causation.
>
> Coordination of NPs uses the word <lî> between the terms. Coordination of
> clauses uses the word <nezh> both before and after the second clause.
>
> I need to go back over my few texts and see what other information I can
> extract.
>
> Adam
>
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Graavgaaln phonology the syllable
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:51 am ((PDT))
Sent this 3 days ago, but haven't seen it arrive, so resending.
Adam
On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking back through old samples of Graavgaaln, I find the following
> syllable shapes attested:
>
> CV
> CVC
> CVCC
> CVCCC
>
> CCV
> CCVC
>
> CCCVCCC
>
> I do not find any examples of:
>
> CCVCC
> CCVCCC
>
> CCCV
> CCCVC
> CCCVCC
>
> But that does not mean such typs do not exist, just that I did not find any
> examples in the extant corpus.
>
> I posit that the Graavgaaln syllable is:
>
> (CC)CV(CCC)
>
> Open syllables are exremely rare in the material examined. Graavgaaln
> seems to have a distinct preference for closed syllables, but codas with CCC
> are also rare and those with CC are less numerous than those with simple C.
>
> Onsets seem to be mostly C and CC with CCC occuring rarely. Zero onset
> does not occur in the corpus, but as the alphabet includeds a device for
> writing an initial vowel, zero onset cannot be entirely ruled out, though
> such words maybe foreign borrowings and syllables of the type V(CCC) may not
> occcur in native words.
>
> Extant words range from one to four syllables.
>
> Adam
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: Unnamed Language Phonology
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:01 am ((PDT))
On 8 September 2010 17:23, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote:
> what does [á´] stand for again,
According to the Wikipedia page about the IPA (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet), it's an
unofficial symbol indicating an epiglottal trill, as you rightly guessed.
> and are these anything like [aÌ¥ÊÍ¡Ì¥] which I
> analysed as a voicing pattern in Jorayn. Because it would be nice to see
> natlang precedant for a trilled uvular co-articulation with de voicing,
> because Jorayn is supposed to be natlangy. Or maybe they are epiglottal
> trills, I'll have to investigate later when my throat stops hurting enough
> to pronounce them.
>
How do people with languages with pharyngeal and/or epiglottal sounds speak
them when they have a sore throat? Do they just suffer in silence or do they
tend to get a speech impediment during that time?
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (8)
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15a. Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:51 am ((PDT))
Words are made up of any number of CV syllables where C is a glottal
stop, a single consonant, or any one of a number of permitted
consonant clusters (as yet unspecified). The first syllable may have a
null consonant, i.e. V only.
The first vowel of a word is any vowel other than 'a'. All of the
remaining vowels of the word are the vowel 'a'. For example:
diva, ropa, upasana, purampada, toskala, osa'atanda ...
The accent falls on the non-a syllable.
Compound words are easily recognized and parsed since they will have
more than one syllable with a non-a vowel. For example:
otampaposata can only be otampa + posata since that is the only
partition that satisfies the morphology of roots.
sikalakoranita -> sikala + kora + nita
If a compound joins a vowel to a vowel, e.g. chupa + otaka, a glottal
stop is inserted: chupa'otaka.
I can't imagine a simpler system than that.
Now all I need is the simplest possible grammar to go along with this
and I can build the simplest possible conlang. :)
--gary
Messages in this topic (4)
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15b. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "Jerry Muelver" jmuel...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:05 am ((PDT))
Gary, I've got one I'm working on, like that. CV, CVCV, CVCVCV, four vowels
- a, i, o, u - eight consonants - j, k, l, m, p, s, t, w - about 1400 word
vocabulary, plus TrueType font for elegance and handwritten scripting (font
looks like script). This can be fun, if I'm not careful....
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Now all I need is the simplest possible grammar to go along with this
> and I can build the simplest possible conlang. :)
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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15c. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:10 am ((PDT))
> Now all I need is the simplest possible grammar to go along with this
> and I can build the simplest possible conlang. :)
By "simplest", do you mean "fewest number of rules", or something like
that, or are we fudging that to make allowances for what humans can
easily parse? I find there's a significant difference between
"logically simplest" and "simplest for a person".
-logan.
Messages in this topic (4)
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15d. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:19 am ((PDT))
Sorry, forgot the link:
http://larrysulky.webs.com/konya/konya-main.html
Messages in this topic (4)
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