There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Naming systems    
    From: Roger Mills

2a. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?    
    From: Roger Mills

3a. How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?    
    From: Nathan Unanymous
3b. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?    
    From: John Vertical
3c. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?    
    From: David McCann

4a. Re: Luggnaggian    
    From: Matthew Turnbull

5a. Re: Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography    
    From: Anthony Miles

6a. Re: And/or    
    From: Anthony Miles

7. Ná&#331;ifi Fasúxa Annotated Babel Text 11:1-3    
    From: Anthony Miles

8a. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS    
    From: Alex Fink
8b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS    
    From: John Vertical

9. Llárriésh (Llama) Trilinear Babel - Genesis 11:1-9    
    From: Richard Littauer

10a. Na'vi Experts Camp    
    From: Richard Littauer
10b. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp    
    From: Brett Williams
10c. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp    
    From: Richard Littauer

11a. Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others    
    From: Peter Bleackley
11b. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others    
    From: Adam Walker
11c. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others    
    From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

12a. Re: Graavgaaln grammar    
    From: Adam Walker

13a. Re: Graavgaaln phonology the syllable    
    From: Adam Walker

14a. Re: Unnamed Language Phonology    
    From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

15a. Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology    
    From: Gary Shannon
15b. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology    
    From: Jerry Muelver
15c. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology    
    From: Logan Kearsley
15d. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology    
    From: Larry Sulky


Messages
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1.1. Re: Naming systems
    Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:04 am ((PDT))

--- On Mon, 9/6/10, Brett Williams <mungoje...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> [The Yanomamo's) taboo against saying someone's name became even
> stronger in
> death.  Speaking a name of the dead could draw
> malevolent attention
> from their spirit.  When someone died, their name was
> laid aside and
> "never" said again (in practice the taboo would last at
> least a few
> months).  The most interesting part is, people were
> named ordinary
> words, and those words would not be used after their death
> even for
> their normal purpose!!  They'd just have to use some
> sort of
> circumlocution for the duration of the taboo.
> 
That taboo is apparently quite widespread. It seems to account, in many 
Austronesian languages, for divergences in vocabulary that skew peoples' 
lexicostatistical analyses (boo hoo). It's known to be (or have been) present 
in one well-recorded language, Bare'e of Central Sulawesi (now called Pamona)-- 
the 1920s dictionary by N. Adriaani has dozens of taboo-substitute words for 
common items. Some are loans, some are adaptations of other lexemes, some are 
just mysterious.... it's all very interesting.


      





Messages in this topic (30)
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2a. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
    Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:06 am ((PDT))

--- On Wed, 9/8/10, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote:

> > Okay, maybe that's unremarkable epenthesis, but it
> could well be *slight
> > involuntary shudder* the same rationale that makes
> Yreka, California be
> > /waIr\ik@/ and so on -- how in the world do such
> things seem compelling to
> > anyone!?
> 
> Wow, before I got to the pronunciation, I was sure you were
> going to say it was /j@"rik@/, like how some people
> pronounce Yvonne /j@"van/. (Not to mention Yvgeny on
> Delocated.)
> 

A common, and much ridiculed, mispronunciation of Ypsilanti [Ips@'lænti] 
Michigan (named after a Greek hero IIRC) is [jIps@'lænti]


      





Messages in this topic (15)
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3a. How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
    Posted by: "Nathan Unanymous" nathanms...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 11:09 am ((PDT))

How did English <u> get to be pronounced both /U/ and /V/? I have a conlang 
with a similar vowel system, in which /U/ and /V/ are allophonic with rules so 
complex an entire book was written on it by my conworld's linguist.





Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
    Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:46 am ((PDT))

On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:05:54 -0400, Nathan Unanymous wrote:
>How did English <u> get to be pronounced both /U/ and /V/?

Generally, it's a split conditioned by the preceding consonant: [U] remains
after labials ("butcher", "full", "push", "wolf", "woman" - but not /m/ for
some reason; "much", "mud"), and becomes [V] elsewhere.

This then became phonemic for various reasons, including the loaning of
words like "putt" and I think "tush" from northern dialects that did away
with [U] entirely, and the introduction of secondary [U] from contraction of
/u:/ before certain consonants. The latter most regularly occur'd before /k
d/ ("book", "food", etc.) but there seems to have been some variation
("flood, blood"; "foot, soot", still /u:/ in some British dialects IIRC; in
many dialects "roof", "room"). This didn't affect /ju:/ (might have still
been /iU/ by the time), which was yet later reduced to plain /u:/ after /l
r/, hence we again get /u:k/ in words like "fluke". "Spook" seems to be a
later loan from Dutch?

John Vertical





Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?
    Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:12 am ((PDT))

On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 14:05 -0400, Nathan Unanymous wrote:
> How did English <u> get to be pronounced both /U/ and /V/? I have a conlang 
> with a similar vowel system, in which /U/ and /V/ are allophonic with rules 
> so 
> complex an entire book was written on it by my conworld's linguist.

The sequence of changes in Southern England was
cut: kʊt > kɤt > kʌt > kət (USA), kat (UK)
foot: fuːt > fʊt

This is a good example of the falsity of the Neogrammarian theory. If
English were an ancient, imperfectly attested language, we would explain
the contrast of "butcher" [bʊt] and "butter" [bat] as dialect mixture.
But we cannot have a rule that /ʊ/ remains after a labial, making
"butter" a loan, because there is no English dialect from which it could
be borrowed (having [pat] for "put"). And we cannot explain all cases
of /ʊ/ after a labial as loanwords from the north, because there are no
exceptions in odd corners of Cornwall or Sussex; it's ridiculous to
expect that every village in Southern England would have borrowed
northern forms for common words like "butcher, pull, full", even where
they maintained local forms like /viːld/ "field".





Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Luggnaggian
    Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Fluft drin Yalerick Dwuldum pra -stra -d mirplush.

Language my mouth friend be.at-REALIS-stem trans.imperfect


 SOV word order, with Posessee Posessor order

fluft – language

drin – 1sg

yalerick – mouth

dwuldum – friend

prad – be.at

-stra- realis

mirplush – transitivizer with imperfect aspect





Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
    Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 7:57 pm ((PDT))

Possibly I am misidentifying some of the "voiceless" vowels (I _can_ pronounce 
the distinctions). Or maybe not. The vowels are meant to be pronounceable, 
but not necessarily well or easily by us humans. The vowels, slightly barky, 
are key here. I can alter the consonantal "allophones" around, if it seems 
advisable, although I guess I have to use /c/ and /j/ now since it's in the 
name of the language. I'm generally more interested in the grammar of a 
conlang than making it pretty.





Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: And/or
    Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:06 pm ((PDT))

I'm not sure about "or", but "and/with" in Na'gifi Fasu'xa  is /pataka'/, the 
prepositional form of /pataka/ "have/hold". /pu'mafa pataka' ti'gafi pumafa' 
pu'mafa/ means "I and my brother" (the /pumafa'/ is the genitive prepositional 
construct).

Semantic note: The preposition /pataka'/ has an equal sense, whereas the 
related participles /a'ptaka/ and /apta'ka/, "holding" and "being held", 
describe 
unequal relationships. Make of that what you will.





Messages in this topic (18)
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7. Ná&#331;ifi Fasúxa Annotated Babel Text 11:1-3
    Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:16 pm ((PDT))

1:1 áptaka atkatí kámanu maní&#331;a ná&#331;ifi &#331;áfisu ná&#331;ifi fasúxa.
The whole earth had one language [and] a common tongue.

áptaka – active vb (msg), to hold 
atkatí – adv (msg) distal past 
kámanu – n (msg)  world, subject of sentence
maní&#331;a – adj (msg) whole, entire; modifies kámanu
ná&#331;ifi – n (msg) language, direct object of sentence
&#331;áfisu – adj (msg) one; modifies ná&#331;ifi
ná&#331;ifi – second direct object 
fasúxa – adj (msg) common; modifies ná&#331;ifi

11:2 apuuxpuut atkaus pínaax. íkmaus atkaus &#331;ásiup kananu kanafú Sinán. 
áknaaf atkaim kanaaf &#331;ásiup.

The people easted. They found the plain at Shinar. They dwelt there.

apuuxpuut – v (mpl) to east; reduplicated form of xáputu, the east
atkaus – adv (mpl) medial past
pínaax – n (mpl) man
íkmaus – v (mpl) to find
&#331;ásiup – pron (mpl) 3rd person; Subject of sentence
kananu – n (msg) plain; object of sentence
kanafú – prep (msg); at; takes case and gender of kananu
áknaaf – v (mpl) to stay there
atkaim – adv (mpl) proximal past
kanaaf -adv (mpl) there

11:3 ínxiip atkaim &#331;ásiup tamaa&#331; &#331;ásiaf. ú&#331;xauk a&#331;siúx 
púmaaf túnais u&#331;xáuk. 
ú&#331;xauk a&#331;siúx uk&#331;ait púmaaf &#331;ásiup. ú&#331;xuuk atkaim 
&#331;ásiup túnais u&#331;xáuk. 
ú&#331;xuuk atkaim a&#331;siix &#331;ásiup túnais. ú&amp;#331;xuuk atkaim 
&#331;ásiup Tas. ú&#331;xuuk atkaim 
a&#331;siix &#331;ásiup Mustas.

They said to one another. Let us burn burned stones. Let us burn them well. 
They used burned stones. They did not use stones. They used “tar'. They did 
not use “mortar”.
ínxiip – v (mpl) to say
tamaa&#331; – prep (mpl) journey/to; modifies  &#331;ásiup
&#331;ásiaf – pron (mpl) self
ú&#331;xauk – v (mpl)  to burn
a&#331;siúx – adv (mpl) jussive 
púmaaf – pron (mpl) we
túnais u&#331;xáuk – n + pass ptcpl “burnt stones”= “bricks”
uk&#331;ait – adv (mpl) greatly, “thoroughly”
ú&#331;xuuk – v (mpl) to use
a&#331;siix – adv (mpl) negative particle
Tas - “tar”
Mustas - “mortar”





Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
    Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:26 pm ((PDT))

On dental/alveolars, I always thought the category was meant for sounds
which were ambiguously dental or alveolar, or not so specified in the
source.  But the other day I was looking up these categories of Wikipedia,
and there they follow a different set of conventions:
"dental" is what I'd more explicitly call dental laminal, "alveolar" is
alveolar apical, and "denti-alveolar" is used for alveolar laminal.  

Kaleissin, you were going to get the UPSID book?  It'd be good to check
whether they're doing a similar thing...

Alex





Messages in this topic (12)
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8b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
    Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:11 am ((PDT))

>On dental/alveolars, I always thought the category was meant for sounds
>which were ambiguously dental or alveolar, or not so specified in the
>source.  But the other day I was looking up these categories of Wikipedia,
>and there they follow a different set of conventions:
>"dental" is what I'd more explicitly call dental laminal, "alveolar" is
>alveolar apical, and "denti-alveolar" is used for alveolar laminal.
>
>Kaleissin, you were going to get the UPSID book?  It'd be good to check
>whether they're doing a similar thing...
>
>Alex

"Denti-alveolar" is not particular to Wikipedia, it does really mean that.
However I don't think this is the same as UPSID's "dental/alveolar".

John Vertical





Messages in this topic (12)
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9. Llárriésh (Llama) Trilinear Babel - Genesis 11:1-9
    Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:44 pm ((PDT))

Here is the Babel text for Llárriésh (also called Llama), which was a one 
month project that I attempted. I had in mind the idea that it would be good to 
create a language entirely from scratch within a month, with some initial 
paramaters, and I think I did pretty well. More details can be found on the 
languages home at my Conlang website: http://llama.conlang.org 

Any thoughts would have course be very appreciated. 

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 
1. Dodhéna bo ia á llevóda ram ó dolleva hóni ro dáoíyúmiones. 
1. world(subj) begin whole the(hypothetical) language(predicate) one and 
speech(predicate) common attribution is-progressive-durative-stative-sg.. 

2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
2. east-toward now man-pl. move-intransitive-imperfective-continuative-
seriative-pl.. (they(subject)) plain(object) then Shinar in 
find-perfective-pl.. 
(they) settle-perfective-transitional-pl..
2. Abétuá as llára póanôráwaïnakéon. Bho gum Shinar fo horówon. 
Súmówohowon. 

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them 
thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 
3. Rúntátuá gum frótáon pó tûn wuá odháon! Tûn as gona aíu oák ó híkti 
nátoríyétéíktion. Rrí gon thon nefá radon ó soronu dalúna üç dáo. 
3. he(4p.)-pl.-reflexive(subject) then say-imperfective-pl. indirect.speech 
we(truncated)(subject) hortative come-imperfective-pl.!  we(trnc.)(subj.) now 
brick-pl.(object) topic make and thoroughly bake-progressive-distributive-
terminal-pl.. so (they)(subject.) brick(object) stone instead.of use-pl. and 
tar 
mortar for(instrumental) is. 

4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that 
reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not 
be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
4. Rûn gum frótáon pó wuá odhon! Tûn túntátuá ásh góré gôr kúna kûn 
rrhískats li ro hewnashî dáoshî weïnáyaïnon, ró ken túnátuá ásh oákówon ó 
nuçhllára yowúll dodhéna ia kyu na rodaowóas. 
4. they(4p. trnc.)(subj.) then say-impf.-pl. indirect.speech hortative 
(we)(subj.) come-pl.! we(trunc.) we(trnc.)-pl.-rflx. for(purpose) city 
relative.clause tower rel.cl. heaven towards attire. reach-subordinate is-sub. 
build-impf.-cont.-pl., so.that(purpose) name we(trnc.)-pl.-rflx.- for(purpose) 
make-perf.-pl. and scattered(trnc.)-man-pl. face earth whole genitive over 
negation-is-perf.-momentaneous.

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were 
building. 
5. Bó Ngádhol á 'ünskóes. Kuná kûn ó góré gôr llára weïníyétéîsh á adaní 
óawáún. 
5. but Lord the descend-perf.-sg.. tower rel.cl. and city rel.cl. man-pl. make-
prog.-dist.-subord. the want(modal verb) see-impf.-infinitive.

6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have 
begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 
6. Ngádhol á kla frótóes pó dínta ô rúnódan ram dáo. Ki ô llevoda dásh 
frótéllon. Fáu fén fuó dawáódaícúon, fái hui rrodu dû ovawáon dashîún goy 
hwéi ók daóún. 
6. Lord the then say-perf.-sing ind.sp. they(3p.pl) generic.mood people one is. 
also gen.m. language same speak-iterative-pl.. if as this(abstract) act-impf.-
diversative-inceptive-pl., then definite no-thing rel.cl plan-impf.-pl. do-
subord.-inf. able future deduced.information do-perf.-inf.. 

7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand 
each other.”
7. As da odhas. Tûn wúa 'ünská ó llevoda dîn kyu peshiló oho dîn díntátuá 
royënówon. 
7. now imperative come-moment. We(trnc.) hort. descend-impf. and language 
they(trnc.) genitive confuse-perf. so.that(resultative) they(trnc.) they-refl. 
neg.-understand-perf.-pl..

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped 
building the city. 
8. Rrí Ngádhol á rûn nuçhfinâróes kópa muc dodhéna ia na, ó rûn góré á kúp 
weïníyún.   
8. so Lord the they(4p. trnc.) scatter-transitive-perf.-sg. there from world 
whole over, and they(4p. trnc.) city the stop build-prog.-inf.

9 That is why it was called Babel — because there the LORD confused the 
language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the 
face of the whole earth.
9. Fá thó Peshil ken góré kyu dáo. Kópa hóra Ngádhol á llevoda á dodhéna ia á 
kyu peshilóes. Ngádhol bóúkti á rûn kópa muc yowúll á dodhéna ia kyu 
nuçhfinâróasúkties. 
9. that(abstract) reason Confuse name city genitive is. there because Lord the 
language the world entire the genitive confuse-perf.-sg.. Lord 
end.of.story(share.information-terminative) the them(trnc.) there from face 
the world entire genitive scatter-transitive-perf.-moment.-term.-sg..





Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Na'vi Experts Camp
    Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 9:51 pm ((PDT))

Some of you might like to know that Na'vi is continually growing in interesting 
ways. Most recently, it was announced today that there will be a small 
conference and camp for a handful of experts in the language - as far as I 
know, exclusively from the fan site www.LearnNavi.org - who will meet with 
Paul Frommer for a weekend in California to talk about the state of the 
language, what else can be done to get the word out, ask questions, and the 
like. Here's the bulletin that was posted publicly today about it:

§

A Na'vi Workshop is to happen this year the first weekend in October! This 
workshop will allow us to work with him, in person, for a few days to better 
understand and flesh out some aspects of the language. 

The history: a while back, Karyu Pawl expressed interest in getting some of 
the most advanced Na’vi speakers in one place for a workshop to discuss and 
learn more about the language. This workshop would allow us to work with Dr. 
Frommer over the course of a couple days to learn the language more 
completely, identify points that need to be expanded, and address some of the 
prominent outstanding questions about the language. This knowledge would be 
documented by the attendees of the workshop and brought back to the 
community for the benefit of everyone. Essentially, this is a “teach the 
teachers” workshop.

The event will take place in California at a member’s private residence over 
the course of October 1st, 2nd and 3rd. We’ll have roughly 15 members 
coming from all across America and even overseas. Additionally, a phone 
conference line will be set up for a couple of hours during one of the days so 
some of our more linguistically engaged members overseas who couldn’t 
travel could participate for one of the days of the workshop. Karyu Pawl is 
very excited for this as I hope we all can be. His willingness to travel 
several 
hundred miles for this meeting at his own expense is a good indication of 
Karyu Pawl’s commitment to this language and this community and we can’t 
thank him enough.

Now, unfortunately, we have some bad news regarding the workshop but we 
want to stress this to avoid any hurt feelings.

At Dr. Frommer’s request and for the sheer logistics of the workshop we had 
to limit the number of people who could attend. Given the scope of our 
community we had a hard choice on how to come up with a fair way by which 
we could decide who should be invited as well as whether the planning should 
be public or not and how the event should be coordinated and announced.

The moderators of the website decided that the fairest system would be a 
panel composed of several founding members of the website that would 
nominate potential members to be included. We nominated the members who 
were either the most active in the language and forums or who we felt were 
the most advanced with the language and would benefit the most from this 
workshop. Once ordered, we messaged the members and asked if they were 
interested and able to commit the time and to travel to the workshop. If a 
member declined then they were given the chance to nominate someone in 
their place or the next person in line was then asked, and so on until all the 
spots were filled.

Now, we understand that there may be some hurt feelings for those who were 
not invited. Ayoheru txoa livuyu. We deeply apologize. Limiting the number of 
participants for this particular meeting was at Paul’s request and simply based 
on the practicality of accommodating the group at the available venue. We 
would have loved to have everyone who wanted to come be able to join us but 
that simply is not feasible this time. This is not intended to be a purely 
social 
event. The idea here is to teach the teachers in our community and the 
original planners coordinated carefully with Karyu Pawl about his ideas on how 
to approach that goal.

However, if you still feel some injustice has been done to the community, 
please contact me or one of our administrators in private. Keep in mind, this 
is unlikely to be the only time Karyu Pawl meets with members of the 
community. We fully intend to try to continue to work with him so that in the 
future there will be more broadly open opportunities for our members to meet 
with him in person.

Do not worry though, there will be pictures, updates, videos, and more from 
this event. Everyone who is a part of our great community will have the 
chance to learn from the results of the meeting and thereby benefit greatly. 
We can’t give enough thanks to Karyu Pawl for donating his valuable time for 
this workshop, nor to the organizers of the workshop, to the administrators of 
LearnNa’vi.org, and to you, the members of LearnNa’vi.org; without whom this 
could have never happened nor could this language have attained such 
success.

Your constructive comments and questions are welcome here below, and if 
you have Na’vi language-specific topics that you still feel need answers, 
please make sure that they are captured in the Language Updates section in 
http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/combining-our-efforts-ii/. Please 
read through all of the posted themes and questions before adding more. Your 
question may already be slated in the mix. Approximately 10 days from now 
we (ALL OF US in the community) will be voting on which are the most 
important to the language overall to help Karyu Pawl prioritize how he handles 
getting them addressed.

In closing, thank you to everyone at LearnNa’vi.org, everyone who is learning 
Na’vi or has shown support for us, and especially to Dr. Paul Frommer and 
James Cameron, without whom this great language and great movie could 
never have even existed.

§

Should be interesting! This is the most publicly advertised conlang currently, 
that I know of. The fact that it was part of the highest grossing movie of all 
time secures that position above Klingon or Elvish, I think...





Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp
    Posted by: "Brett Williams" mungoje...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 10:05 pm ((PDT))

My word!  I knew Na'vi was successful, but the very idea of a conlang
gathering having to be concerned with LIMITING the number of
attendees... that's rather blowing my mind.  I haven't even seen
Avatar yet (I rarely watch movies), but I suppose I ought to check it
out.  Huh.

<3,
la stela selckiku
aka
mungojelly
aka
bret-ram
aka
veret'he
aka
brett





Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Na'vi Experts Camp
    Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com 
    Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 10:06 pm ((PDT))

Well, considering that www.LearnNavi.org has well over 5k members, it's not
surprising at all. A couple of hundred of those are intermediates, and a
couple of score of those could probably be called experts (Myself included.
I am hoping to find a way to subsidise a transatlantic flight so I can make
it from Scotland.) It is in no way a small community, anymore.

And Avatar is ok - but the language is better. :P

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Brett Williams <mungoje...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My word!  I knew Na'vi was successful, but the very idea of a conlang
> gathering having to be concerned with LIMITING the number of
> attendees... that's rather blowing my mind.  I haven't even seen
> Avatar yet (I rarely watch movies), but I suppose I ought to check it
> out.  Huh.
>
> <3,
> la stela selckiku
> aka
> mungojelly
> aka
> bret-ram
> aka
> veret'he
> aka
> brett
>





Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
11a. Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
    Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 1:44 am ((PDT))

I had an idea for a very odd morphosyntactic allignment yesterday.

There are two genders, animate and inanimate.
In intransitive sentences, the subject is always unmarked.
In transitive sentence, the subject is unmarked if is animate. The 
object will then be marked as accusative, regardless of its gender.
If the subject is inanimate, it will be marked as ergative. The object 
will then be unmarked, regardless of it's gender.

So far, vaguely plausible. Then I had a look at what might happen with 
ditransitive sentences, and it started to get weird.

If the recipient is animate, it will be marked the same way as the 
object of a monotransitive sentence. In this case, if the theme is 
inanimate, it will be marked the same way, so that theme and recipent 
are distinguished by their animacy. However, if the theme is animate, it 
will be marked as secundative.
Inanimate objects, however, are marked as dative. In this case, the 
theme will be marked as if it were the object of a monotransitive 
sentence, regardless of its animacy.

What do people think of this?

Pete





Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
11b. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
    Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:47 am ((PDT))

Um, wow.  I'd need an if/then flow chart just to say hi.  Cool.

Adam

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Peter Bleackley <
peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:

> I had an idea for a very odd morphosyntactic allignment yesterday.
>
> There are two genders, animate and inanimate.
> In intransitive sentences, the subject is always unmarked.
> In transitive sentence, the subject is unmarked if is animate. The object
> will then be marked as accusative, regardless of its gender.
> If the subject is inanimate, it will be marked as ergative. The object will
> then be unmarked, regardless of it's gender.
>
> So far, vaguely plausible. Then I had a look at what might happen with
> ditransitive sentences, and it started to get weird.
>
> If the recipient is animate, it will be marked the same way as the object
> of a monotransitive sentence. In this case, if the theme is inanimate, it
> will be marked the same way, so that theme and recipent are distinguished by
> their animacy. However, if the theme is animate, it will be marked as
> secundative.
> Inanimate objects, however, are marked as dative. In this case, the theme
> will be marked as if it were the object of a monotransitive sentence,
> regardless of its animacy.
>
> What do people think of this?
>
> Pete
>





Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
11c. Re: Marking of some nouns determined by properties of others
    Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:28 am ((PDT))

On 9 September 2010 16:43, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Um, wow.  I'd need an if/then flow chart just to say hi.  Cool.
>
>
Actually, you'd be amazed by the amount of stuff that we just internalise
that would blow our minds it we described it in actual rules. Humans are
incredibly good at internalising patterns, even very complex ones (to the
point we actually often see patterns where there are none. Our brains are so
good at that they create lots of false positives :P ). Sometimes, when I see
for instance the conjugations systems extant in various Amerind languages, I
just can't quite understand how people can actually conjugate those verbs
effortlessly!

As for the morphosyntactic alignment Peter describes, it is slightly odd,
but between the various kinds of active languages and the various treatments
of ditransitive verbs in languages, I don't feel it's particularly weird.
But I need to draw a graph to really get our the various participants
interact ;) .


> Adam
>
> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Peter Bleackley <
> peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I had an idea for a very odd morphosyntactic allignment yesterday.
> >
> > There are two genders, animate and inanimate.
> > In intransitive sentences, the subject is always unmarked.
> > In transitive sentence, the subject is unmarked if is animate. The object
> > will then be marked as accusative, regardless of its gender.
> > If the subject is inanimate, it will be marked as ergative. The object
> will
> > then be unmarked, regardless of it's gender.
> >
> > So far, vaguely plausible. Then I had a look at what might happen with
> > ditransitive sentences, and it started to get weird.
> >
> > If the recipient is animate, it will be marked the same way as the object
> > of a monotransitive sentence. In this case, if the theme is inanimate, it
> > will be marked the same way, so that theme and recipent are distinguished
> by
> > their animacy. However, if the theme is animate, it will be marked as
> > secundative.
> > Inanimate objects, however, are marked as dative. In this case, the theme
> > will be marked as if it were the object of a monotransitive sentence,
> > regardless of its animacy.
> >
> > What do people think of this?
> >
> > Pete
> >
>



-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
12a. Re: Graavgaaln grammar
    Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:49 am ((PDT))

Same on this one.  Three days seemes too long even for email sent with
sticky-jelly fingers.

Adam

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's what I know about the grammar of Graavgaaln:
>
> Word order is SOV.
>
> Pronouns and nouns show case. Object, Benefactive and Instrumental are
> attested and marked with suffixes.  Locative is handled with a postposition.
>
> Number is marked on nouns.
>
> Possessor-possessed. Possession is shown with the word <nezh> which comes
> between the two  persons/objects being related.
>
> Verbs show number, person and tense and causation.
>
> Coordination of NPs uses the word <lî> between the terms. Coordination of
> clauses uses the word <nezh> both before and after the second clause.
>
> I need to go back over my few texts and see what other information I can
> extract.
>
> Adam
>
>





Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
13a. Re: Graavgaaln phonology the syllable
    Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:51 am ((PDT))

Sent this 3 days ago, but haven't seen it arrive, so resending.

Adam

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Looking back through old samples of Graavgaaln, I find the following
> syllable shapes attested:
>
> CV
> CVC
> CVCC
> CVCCC
>
> CCV
> CCVC
>
> CCCVCCC
>
> I do not find any examples of:
>
> CCVCC
> CCVCCC
>
> CCCV
> CCCVC
> CCCVCC
>
> But that does not mean such typs do not exist, just that I did not find any
> examples in the extant corpus.
>
> I posit that the Graavgaaln syllable is:
>
> (CC)CV(CCC)
>
> Open syllables are exremely rare in the material examined.  Graavgaaln
> seems to have a distinct preference for closed syllables, but codas with CCC
> are also rare and those with CC are less numerous than those with simple C.
>
> Onsets seem to be mostly C and CC with CCC occuring rarely.  Zero onset
> does not occur in the corpus, but as the alphabet includeds a device for
> writing an initial vowel, zero onset cannot be entirely ruled out, though
> such words maybe foreign borrowings and syllables of the type V(CCC) may not
> occcur in native words.
>
> Extant words range from one to four syllables.
>
> Adam
>





Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
14a. Re: Unnamed Language Phonology
    Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:01 am ((PDT))

On 8 September 2010 17:23, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote:

> what does [ᴙ] stand for again,


According to the Wikipedia page about the IPA (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet), it's an
unofficial symbol indicating an epiglottal trill, as you rightly guessed.


> and are these anything like [ḁʀ̥͡] which I
> analysed as a voicing pattern in Jorayn. Because it would be nice to see
> natlang precedant for a trilled uvular co-articulation with de voicing,
> because Jorayn is supposed to be natlangy. Or maybe they are epiglottal
> trills, I'll have to investigate later when my throat stops hurting enough
> to pronounce them.
>

How do people with languages with pharyngeal and/or epiglottal sounds speak
them when they have a sore throat? Do they just suffer in silence or do they
tend to get a speech impediment during that time?
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________
15a. Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
    Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:51 am ((PDT))

Words are made up of any number of CV syllables where C is a glottal
stop, a single consonant, or any one of a number of permitted
consonant clusters (as yet unspecified). The first syllable may have a
null consonant, i.e. V only.

The first vowel of a word is any vowel other than 'a'. All of the
remaining vowels of the word are the vowel 'a'. For example:

        diva, ropa, upasana, purampada, toskala, osa'atanda ...

The accent falls on the non-a syllable.

Compound words are easily recognized and parsed since they will have
more than one syllable with a non-a vowel. For example:

        otampaposata can only be otampa + posata since that is the only
partition that satisfies the morphology of roots.

        sikalakoranita -> sikala + kora + nita

If a compound joins a vowel to a vowel, e.g. chupa + otaka, a glottal
stop is inserted: chupa'otaka.

I can't imagine a simpler system than that.

Now all I need is the simplest possible grammar to go along with this
and I can build the simplest possible conlang. :)

--gary





Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
15b. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
    Posted by: "Jerry Muelver" jmuel...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:05 am ((PDT))

Gary, I've got one I'm working on, like that. CV, CVCV, CVCVCV, four vowels
- a, i, o, u - eight consonants - j, k, l, m, p, s, t, w - about 1400 word
vocabulary, plus TrueType font for elegance and handwritten scripting (font
looks like script). This can be fun, if I'm not careful....

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Now all I need is the simplest possible grammar to go along with this
> and I can build the simplest possible conlang. :)
>
> --gary
>





Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
15c. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
    Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:10 am ((PDT))

> Now all I need is the simplest possible grammar to go along with this
> and I can build the simplest possible conlang. :)

By "simplest", do you mean "fewest number of rules", or something like
that, or are we fudging that to make allowances for what humans can
easily parse? I find there's a significant difference between
"logically simplest" and "simplest for a person".

-logan.





Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
15d. Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology
    Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com 
    Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 9:19 am ((PDT))

Sorry, forgot the link:

http://larrysulky.webs.com/konya/konya-main.html





Messages in this topic (4)





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