There are 15 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) From: Roger Mills 1.2. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) From: Roger Mills 1.3. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) From: Andreas Johansson 1.4. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) From: Lars Finsen 1.5. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) From: René Uittenbogaard 2a. Re: Celtic & other myths From: R A Brown 2b. Re: Celtic & other myths From: Jörg Rhiemeier 2c. Re: Celtic & other myths From: Andreas Johansson 2d. Re: Celtic & other myths From: Jörg Rhiemeier 2e. Re: Celtic & other myths From: R A Brown 3. Four-tone Latin (was: Sino-Romance in the LLL?) From: Anthony Miles 4. Na'gifi Fasu'xa Phonotactics From: Anthony Miles 5a. Re: Looking for Academic Conlangers From: Israel Noletto 6.1. Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop From: Peter Bleackley 7a. Re: Young conlanger/cellist on NPR's From The Top From: Donald Boozer Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1.1. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:07 am ((PDT)) --- On Sun, 9/26/10, kechpaja <kechp...@comcast.net> wrote: > > (The final g also is used only > in the writing - for what purpose is beyond me, > embellishment I suppose. > > I will throw forth the opinion that the final -g is there > purely for etymological reasons—in German, the suffix -ig > is used to form adjectives. It's pronounced /IC/ in the > standard dialect, which isn't too far from /i/. > IIRC, Dutch also has -ig on adjectives, and I recall reading that the /g/ is often not pronounced. Messages in this topic (27) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.2. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:14 am ((PDT)) --- On Sun, 9/26/10, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote: > And a question more for the conlang world, Flipping through > my book, I find there are two kinds of yes in Norwegian, > "ja" and "jo." "Ja" is like the yes we're all familiar with > in English, while "jo" is an affirmative answer to a > question asked using a negative, and is also used as a > slightly doubtful "yes." > (snip) > So, the question is, does anyone do this with "yes" in > their conlang(s)? Or perhaps something similar with "no"? > Not quite comparable, but Kash has forms for "ordinary" yes/no, along with forms for "intensive" yes/no hayi 'yes', nakayi 'absolutely, yes indeed' etc. (/naN+xayi/ tayi 'no', nandayi 'absolutely/certainly not, no way' etc. (/naN+tayi/ the "-y-" is just an orthographic requirement; both words are ordinarily monosyllablis [xaI), taI)] in speech; they can be bisyllabic in poetry if necessary for the meter. Messages in this topic (27) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.3. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:43 am ((PDT)) On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote: [snip] > I'm pretty sure the adjectival ending -ig is borrowed from the Low German > area or its surroundings. The Swedish _-ig_ (with usually but not invariably silent 'g') certainly is from Low German. The native equivalent _-og_ is almost wholly extinct (the standard example is _idog_, but it's not a word I ever use other than when exemplifying this ending). -- Andreas Johansson Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else? Messages in this topic (27) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.4. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:03 am ((PDT)) Den 26. sep. 2010 kl. 18.42 skreiv Andreas Johansson: > The Swedish _-ig_ (with usually but not invariably silent 'g') > certainly is from Low German. The native equivalent _-og_ is almost > wholly extinct (the standard example is _idog_, but it's not a word I > ever use other than when exemplifying this ending). We have a similar native -ug ending in Norwegian. It was used regularly in some variants of early Nynorsk, in words like _dristug_, for example. But today the Low Germans have conquered us, too. I reckon the early Nynorsk practice must have been based on some dialect or other, spoken 150 years ago. The ON -ugr ending should regularly become -ug in Norwegian (and -og in Danish and Swedish) But I have never heard any such form in spoken Norwegian in my life. LEF Messages in this topic (27) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.5. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop) Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" ruitt...@gmail.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:50 pm ((PDT)) 2010/9/26 Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com>: > --- On Sun, 9/26/10, kechpaja <kechp...@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> I will throw forth the opinion that the final -g is there >> purely for etymological reasons—in German, the suffix -ig >> is used to form adjectives. It's pronounced /IC/ in the >> standard dialect, which isn't too far from /i/. >> > IIRC, Dutch also has -ig on adjectives, and I recall reading that the /g/ is > often not pronounced. > I wouldn't know of any example in Dutch in which the |g| is not pronounced. Normally the suffix is pronounced /@X/, as in "machtig" /'m...@x/ (mighty). René Messages in this topic (27) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Re: Celtic & other myths Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:05 pm ((PDT)) On 26/09/2010 13:29, Deiniol Jones Jörg: >>>> Indeed, indeed! There is not a shred of evidence for the >>>> existence of any of the Insular Celtic peculiarities >>>> (VSO word order, initial mutations, profusion of spirants >>>> from the lenition of stops, etc.) in Gaulish, Lepontic >>>> or Celtiberian! These languages are much more similar to >>>> Latin in their structure than they are to Insular >>>> Celtic. Me: >>> Absolutely - yet if a conlang occurs that purports to be a >>> survival of a Continental Celtic language, what's the >>> betting it will have most, if not all, of these features! Jörg: >> The only Continental Celtic conlang I am aware of is Dan >> Jones's >> Arvorec, and it *does* have all those features. Sigh. Deiniol: > Well, it's supposed to! :D Arvorec came about in response to > the elimination of the Brythonic languages in Ill Bethisad, > and so was *supposed* to be a fairly typical Insular-style > language. Interestingly, Ranko Matasovic makes a case that > all these typically "Celtic" features present in the modern > Insular languages are the result of intensive language > contact during the late Dark Ages: Yes, I've always thought, at least in case of the Brythonic languages, that these changes dis not occur until after the Roman period. But I can go along with a Celtic language on the fringe, as it were, of Britain exhibiting many, if not all, of these features. What I was thinking of was some Celti-conlang in, say southern Gaul, north-west Spain, or maybe along the Danube or even a survival in some remote part of Anatolia of the ancient Galatian language. I can just imagine someone thinking: "What if Galatian had continued to spoken? It was a Celtic language, so my neo-Galatian will have to have initial consonant mutations etc." -- Ray ================================== http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt, wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun." [J.G. Hamann, 1760] "A mind that thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language". Messages in this topic (26) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: Celtic & other myths Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:49 pm ((PDT)) Hallo! On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:07:18 +0100, R A Brown wrote: > On 26/09/2010 13:29, Deiniol Jones > > [...] > > > Well, it's supposed to! :D Arvorec came about in > response to > > the elimination of the Brythonic languages in Ill Bethisad, > > and so was *supposed* to be a fairly typical Insular-style > > language. Interestingly, Ranko Matasovic makes a case that > > all these typically "Celtic" features present in the modern > > Insular languages are the result of intensive language > > contact during the late Dark Ages: > > Yes, I've always thought, at least in case of the Brythonic > languages, that these changes dis not occur until after the > Roman period. How much do we know about Roman-era British? Wikipedia cites a curse tablet found at Bath, and gives two utterly different translations; it doesn't seem to be VSO nor show any initial mutations. Also, Tacitus said that British differed little from Gaulish. Perhaps the substratum hypothesis I used in my Albic project is indeed utterly groundless. (That of course neither means that Old Albic can't be VSO - it doesn't have initial mutations anyway - nor that the modern Albic languages cannot have initial mutations!) > But I can go along with a Celtic language on the fringe, as > it were, of Britain exhibiting many, if not all, of these > features. Yes. Arvorec, spoken on the Channel Islands, is close enough to Britain to be drawn into the linguistic area which, in Ill Bethisad, is represented by Brithenig, Kerno, Breathanach and Irish. (Also, it is a well-done and admirable conlang.) > What I was thinking of was some Celti-conlang in, > say southern Gaul, north-west Spain, or maybe along the > Danube or even a survival in some remote part of Anatolia of > the ancient Galatian language. For such a conlang, I would indeed not expect to find any of the "Insular Celtic" features. > I can just imagine someone thinking: "What if Galatian had > continued to spoken? It was a Celtic language, so my > neo-Galatian will have to have initial consonant mutations etc." Neo-Galatian would be a project for the League of Lost Languages, but *please* without initial mutations! ;) -- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html Messages in this topic (26) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: Celtic & other myths Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:00 pm ((PDT)) On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de> wrote: > [snip] > Neo-Galatian would be a project for the League of Lost Languages, > but *please* without initial mutations! ;) Is it known how long real-world Galatian survived? I presume it must have become heavily influenced by Greek as time went by. -- Andreas Johansson Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else? Messages in this topic (26) ________________________________________________________________________ 2d. Re: Celtic & other myths Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:21 pm ((PDT)) Hallo! On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:59:04 +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote: > On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier<joerg_rhieme...@web.de> > wrote: > > > [snip] > > Neo-Galatian would be a project for the League of Lost Languages, > > but *please* without initial mutations! ;) > > Is it known how long real-world Galatian survived? I presume it must > have become heavily influenced by Greek as time went by. Wikipedia says Galatian survived to the 4th century AD. Certainly, the language would indeed be heavily influenced by Greek, and written in the Greek alphabet or a derivative thereof. -- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html Messages in this topic (26) ________________________________________________________________________ 2e. Re: Celtic & other myths Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:10 am ((PDT)) On 26/09/2010 21:20, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote: > Hallo! [snip] > > Wikipedia says Galatian survived to the 4th century AD. > Certainly, the language would indeed be heavily > influenced by Greek, and written in the Greek alphabet or > a derivative thereof. In the thesis I wrote for the M.Litt degree way back in 1984, I state that it survived till at least the early 5th century. Certainly St Jerome 347 to 420 AD) records in his commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (c. 387) that the Galatians of Ancyra (Ankara) were speaking a language similar to that of the Treveri of Trier in what is now the German Rhineland. Someone at least thinks some Galatians words still survive in modern Turkish; see: http://www.galloturca.com/galatians_files/galatianwords.htm If this is correct, then the language would have survived far later than is commonly thought and still be spoken when Turkic peoples began migrating in Asia Minor in the 11th cent AD. -- Ray ================================== http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt, wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun." [J.G. Hamann, 1760] "A mind that thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language". Messages in this topic (26) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3. Four-tone Latin (was: Sino-Romance in the LLL?) Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:04 pm ((PDT)) Perhaps I became hung-up on the geographical Sino- of "Sino-Romance languages". Would West Africa be a better place for a tonal Romance language? It's proximate to the Empire and has multiple tribal groups. Many of the languages are tonal, and some of them have the analytical structure underlying some of the modern Romance languages. The intermarriage of Romans and local women would render the Romance connection invisible to 19th-century European scholars. Perhaps the Romance connection was proposed before the collapse of colonial rule, and then suppressed during post- colonial African nationalism. Any thoughts? Messages in this topic (1) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 4. Na'gifi Fasu'xa Phonotactics Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:45 pm ((PDT)) I'm still working on entering Na'gifi Fasu'xa into Lexique Pro (so far, it's wonderful), but I've also worked a simple,, yet not too simple phonotactic scheme for Na'gifi Fasu'xa. N = mng C = any consonant [N] = velar nasal m > N/_C [kaamnu] > [ka:nnu] n > l/_C [tuansi] > [twalsi] g [N] > ?/_C [tiaNsi] > [tja?si] [+pls -vc] > [+vc]/_[+nas +vc] [tn] > [dn] [+frc -vc] > [+vc]/_[+nas +vc] [sn] > [zn] a + i > aj [tunais] > [tunajs] a + u > aw [paNaus] > [paNaws] i + a > ja [tiaNxa] > [tja?xa] i + u > ju [Nafius] > [Nafius] u + a > wa [kuaNti] > [kwa?ti] u + i > wi [iskuim] > [iskwim] Messages in this topic (1) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 5a. Re: Looking for Academic Conlangers Posted by: "Israel Noletto" israelnole...@gmail.com Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:53 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Well, I teach English and Spanish at a Federal Institute of education and have recently published a book on conlanging besides some articles and lectures. Feel free to email me off-list if you like ( israelnole...@ifpi.edu.br ) cheers, Israel Noletto Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 6.1. Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:04 am ((PDT)) staving Lars Finsen: > Den 24. sep. 2010 kl. 15.33 skrev p...@phillipdriscoll.com: >> >> Yep. >> First person: "I think the task may be difficult, but I'll try to do it." >> >> Second person, innocently: "It's so hard. Do you think you can keep it >> up?" >> >> First person: "That's what she said!" > > Odd. Is there some popular culture origin to this usage? > > And the British one, too? > "As the actress said to the bishop" is a reference to the racy reputation that actresses enjoyed in former times. In Khangaþyagon I think you'd say analekdahikhar pohar/rikar kholo enban anal-ek- dah-i-kh-ar poh- ar/rik-ar khol-o en- ban joy- adj-be- 3-ft-pl woman-pl/man-pl hear-inf thing-that Women/men* will rejoice to hear it. (*delete as inapropriate) Pete Messages in this topic (27) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 7a. Re: Young conlanger/cellist on NPR's From The Top Posted by: "Donald Boozer" donaldboo...@yahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:29 am ((PDT)) I've also posted the link to the show on the LCS's Twitter feed @FiatLingua. The cellist/conlanger is at 51:00 on the show's audio. Don http://library.conlang.org Twitter: @FiatLingua Messages in this topic (4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! 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