There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: And Rosta
1.2. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Paul Bennett
1.3. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: And Rosta
1.4. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: R A Brown
2a. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Daniel Nielsen
2b. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: kechpaja
2c. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Roger Mills
2d. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Roger Mills
2e. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Matthew Turnbull
2f. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Daniel Nielsen
2g. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Matthew Boutilier
2h. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Charlie
2i. Re: XKCD Lobjan
From: Jim Henry
3a. Re: Celticity?
From: R A Brown
4a. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Alex Fink
5a. Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
From: Peter Bleackley
5b. Re: Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
From: Andreas Johansson
5c. Re: Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
From: Samuel Stutter
5d. Re: Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
From: Lars Finsen
6a. Reliable Reference for definitions...
From: Jeff Sheets
6b. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
From: Samuel Stutter
6c. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
From: Jim Henry
6d. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
From: Lee
6e. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
From: Lee
7.1. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 9:41 am ((PDT))
In case it helps, I found that Google Maps (like a lot of other Google stuff)
runs better on the Google Chrome browser than on Opera (my usual).
Also, for pin insertion purposes, I used Satellite View (i.e. map augmented by
satellite photographs) rather than Street View.
--And.
R A Brown, On 03/10/2010 08:14:
> On 02/10/2010 16:59, Roger Mills wrote:
>> --- On Sat, 10/2/10, R A Brown<r...@carolandray.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I can understand why people may apparently be located
>>> in strange places. I tried to add myself this morning.
>>> I zoomed in and in and in - and got exited when the map
>>> showed my road and then it changed to street view. It
>>> bore not the slightest resemblance to the street I live
>>> in, even tho it said it was that street! What's up with
>>> Google maps?
>>>
>> Being unused to Google Maps like this one plus
>> semi-computer-illiterate, it didn't occur to me that one
>> could zoom in and in and in..
>
> I thought I was reasonably computer literate (a master's degree in Computer
> Science), but maybe I've got rusty since retirement.
>
> I tried again today and got excited when I recognized my street - and there
> was my house. But as I approached it (if And can pin-point an umbrella in his
> garden, I thought I'd at least get the house!) suddenly, and for no apparent
> reason I can fathom, the scene changed and I was looking at a street
> somewhere in California!
>
> I've nothing for or against California, but I thought placing my marker there
> would be a tad misleading, especially as I live in the UK.
>
> Ah well, third time lucky, they say .......
>
Messages in this topic (44)
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1.2. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 9:48 am ((PDT))
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:59:10 -0400, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Being unused to Google Maps like this one plus semi-computer-illiterate,
> it didn't occur to me that one could zoom in and in and in....
As someone once said: "The only intuitive interface is the nipple.
Everything else must be learned." ;-)
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (44)
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1.3. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 9:48 am ((PDT))
I live and work in different cities that, by British standards, are quite far
apart; so I am to be found in both. So I put one pin above the umbrella in my
garden and the other pin above my office.
--And.
David Peterson, On 03/10/2010 08:17:
> On Oct 1, 2010, at 12◊56 PM, Daniel Nielsen wrote:
>
>> There are two Ands living in the same town.. Have we been deceived by a pair
>> of wily twins?
>
> Yeah, I meant to ask about that, And. Did you mean to add yourself
> twice? There's one of you in Preston, and one of you in London. Do
> you claim dual residence? (And if so, can I put one of me in Hawai'i? ~:D)
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.com/
>
> LCS Member Since 2007
> http://conlang.org/
>
Messages in this topic (44)
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1.4. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 11:17 pm ((PDT))
On 03/10/2010 17:39, And Rosta wrote:
> In case it helps, I found that Google Maps (like a lot of
> other Google stuff) runs better on the Google Chrome
> browser than on Opera (my usual).
Last time I looked Chrome was available only for the newer
Macs using an Intel processor. My Mac is still one of the
old time ones using a Power PC processor - I intend to
upgrade to a nice new Mac in the not too distant future; but
that doesn't help now.
> Also, for pin insertion purposes, I used Satellite View
> (i.e. map augmented by satellite photographs) rather than
> Street View.
_I_ never asked for street view. The Google map just
decided to change - and why the street view suddenly changed
yesterday from a close up of my house to somewhere in
California is a mystery.
But taking your advice, I stubbornly refused to accept
Google's Street View and turned the darned thing off,
insisting on the the Satellite View, whether Google liked it
not. So now .....
[snip]
> R A Brown, On 03/10/2010 08:14:
[snip]
>>
>> Ah well, third time lucky, they say .......
Yep, the pointer's now right over the house!
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 7:07 pm ((PDT))
Could someone help me with translating
this<http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.hubpages.com/u/209666_f520.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D5894&usg=__oOc2uGtExlYDgrEj-wLd1BL0lVU=&h=686&w=520&sz=91&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=6enoo7V260NefM:&tbnh=173&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfar%2Bside%2B%2522aw%2Bblah%2Bes%2Bspan%2Byol%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D869%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=136&vpy=104&dur=2627&hovh=258&hovw=195&tx=153&ty=103&ei=lTWpTOrdMcT38Abp0NWqDA&oei=lTWpTOrdMcT38Abp0NWqDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0>
?
Dan N
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "kechpaja" kechp...@comcast.net
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 8:05 pm ((PDT))
You mean, the "Spanish" into English? Or the whole thing into another language?
The Spanish says:
What's up?
Do you speak Spanish?
(unsure)
Good day!
The last one has a mistake (as opposed to just anglicization): there should be
as /s/ at the end of the first word.
On Oct 3, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Daniel Nielsen wrote:
> Could someone help me with translating
> this<http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.hubpages.com/u/209666_f520.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D5894&usg=__oOc2uGtExlYDgrEj-wLd1BL0lVU=&h=686&w=520&sz=91&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=6enoo7V260NefM:&tbnh=173&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfar%2Bside%2B%2522aw%2Bblah%2Bes%2Bspan%2Byol%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D869%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=136&vpy=104&dur=2627&hovh=258&hovw=195&tx=153&ty=103&ei=lTWpTOrdMcT38Abp0NWqDA&oei=lTWpTOrdMcT38Abp0NWqDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0>
> ?
>
> Dan N
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 8:13 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 10/3/10, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu> wrote:
> Could someone help me with
> translating
> this<http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.hubpages.com/u/209666_f520.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D5894&usg=__oOc2uGtExlYDgrEj-wLd1BL0lVU=&h=686&w=520&sz=91&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=6enoo7V260NefM:&tbnh=173&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfar%2Bside%2B%2522aw%2Bblah%2Bes%2Bspan%2Byol%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D869%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=136&vpy=104&dur=2627&hovh=258&hovw=195&tx=153&ty=103&ei=lTWpTOrdMcT38Abp0NWqDA&oei=lTWpTOrdMcT38Abp0NWqDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0>
> ?
>
It's Spanish with a bad accent....
¿Qué pasa? 'what's happening?'
hablo español 'I speak Spanish' or maybe habla... 'he speaks...' or 'do you
speak...?'
bien feo 'quite ugly' (not totally sure about this one)
buenos dias 'good morning/day'
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 8:25 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 10/3/10, kechpaja <kechp...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> The Spanish says:
> What's up?
> Do you speak Spanish?
> (unsure)
> Good day!
>
> The last one has a mistake (as opposed to just
> anglicization): there should be as /s/ at the end of the
> first word.
>
Maybe they're Caribbean dolphins, dropping their s's........? :-))))
Messages in this topic (14)
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2e. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 10:37 pm ((PDT))
>
> hablo español 'I speak Spanish' or maybe habla... 'he speaks...' or 'do you
> speak...?'
>
I think more probably "habla español?" Cause the dolphins are trying to talk
to them.
Either way it made me laugh!
Messages in this topic (14)
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2f. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 11:51 pm ((PDT))
I was being sarcastic (wasn't trying to be hard on Matthew, in case it
seemed that way), because I just wanted to share the strip (even though it's
old :)) I didn't know what feo meant, though, so that makes it even a little
funnier.
Dan N
Messages in this topic (14)
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2g. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" mbout...@nd.edu
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 12:03 am ((PDT))
no offense taken. it's just a shame the researchers didn't transpose the
dolphin-speech into IPA.
matt
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu> wrote:
> I was being sarcastic (wasn't trying to be hard on Matthew, in case it
> seemed that way), because I just wanted to share the strip (even though
> it's
> old :)) I didn't know what feo meant, though, so that makes it even a
> little
> funnier.
>
> Dan N
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2h. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 2:24 am ((PDT))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Roger Mills <romi...@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe they're Caribbean dolphins, dropping their s's........? :-))))
>
When I lived in Central America we used to say "they eat their S's." Comen las
esas.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (14)
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2i. Re: XKCD Lobjan
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 5:31 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu> wrote:
> no offense taken. it's just a shame the researchers didn't transpose the
> dolphin-speech into IPA.
I think they're probably zoölogists, not linguists.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Celticity?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 8:52 pm ((PDT))
On 23/09/2010 11:33, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 23 September 2010 11:51, Lars
> Finsen<lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
[snip]
>> It's Breton ......
>>
>>
> Funny how Breton looks so "unceltic" in its orthography
> :) . It looks neither like Welsh (no vocalic w and y, no
> ll) nor like Scottish or Irish Gaelic (hardly any vocalic
> digraphs or trigraphs, no accent).
That was the point. I could've picked a piece of Manx, I
guess, or Cornish in one its more "unceltic" spellings
(there are AFAIK 4 different main varieties of revived
Cornish). There ain't a "Celtic orthography!"
[snip]
>
>> Do you think that artifacts made by people who speak a
>> language defined as Celtic should not be called
>> Celtic?
>>
> There lies the problem. By calling artifacts made by
> Gauls or by Irish Gaelic speakers uniformly "Celtic", one
> creates the impression of a single common culture among
> those people, which AFAIK didn't exist. There isn't a
> single "Celtic" identity, no commonality between the
> various "Celtic" folks besides related languages. the
> various Celtic-speaking populations have always been very
> isolated from each other (some say that even during the
> original time Indo-Europeans arrived in Western Europe
> and the British Isles, Q-Celtic speakers and P-Celtic
> speakers were already separate waves of migration with no
> contact with each other). "Celtic", in the popular
> meaning of the word, is a very modern construction that
> stems from a heavily romanticised view of the time when
> the British Isles were not dominated yet by
> Anglo-Saxons.
>
> As a linguistic term, "Celtic" is a handy label for an
> Indo-European language subfamily that we know exists
> (although the details might still be a bit hazy). As an
> anthropological term it has no value whatsoever, and is
> even harmful in creating an illusion of similarity and
> continuity that just does not exist.
Amen! Amen!
Christophe has expressed my sentiments exactly and far
better than I could.
Christophe's last paragraph is so very, very, very true!
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. META: Conlang-L FAQ
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 3, 2010 9:17 pm ((PDT))
The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ .
Someone will post it once a month, copied directly from that page, for the
benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please edit it at
the link above.
Alex
==Where to get Conlang-L==
The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html
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A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
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Conlang-L is also <i>mirrored</i> as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to
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<p>''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT
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==Acronyms==
List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
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** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
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idiolect], depending on context)
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* YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread
** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...
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Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:].
==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also [[Conlang
terminology]].
con__
* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...
__lang
* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang,
artlang, auxlang, ...
[[artlang]]
# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic)
+ lang(uage)]
# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
[[auxlang]]
* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
* Adjective form of "conculture".
[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".
[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
# n. A constructed language
# v. To construct a language
[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling
[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".
[[engelang]] /ˈendʒlæŋ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is
objectively testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different
from claiming that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the
Lojban/Loglan roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the
speakers of the (numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion
to the number of speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this
criterion is met; it is something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From
eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
etabnannery /raːmnænəɹi/ (rare)
* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From Etá̄bnann(i), a conlang by Tristan
McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
maggelity /mə"gɛːlIti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by
Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
Maggel's Paradox (rare)
* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.
ObConlang (or ObCL)
* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
[[translation relay]]
* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
==Resources==
* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"
* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist
Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________
5a. Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 3:51 am ((PDT))
The town I live in is called Horsham, from the Old English horsa-ham
"horse-settlement". However, a local legend claims the meaning is
"Horsa's settlement", and that the town was founded by Horsa himself.
The earliest historical record of the town is from 947 AD, but it would
be nice to believe that the legend had some substance to it. "The Lore
of the Land: A Guide to England's Legends, from Spring-Heeled Jack to
the Witches of Warboys" by Jennifer Westwood and Jacqueline Simpson
records several legends that have arisen to explain place names, for
example "Lichfield" was supposed to have been the site of a terrible
battle, due to the apparent meaning "field of corpses".
Has anyone tried using this phenomenon in world-building?
Pete
Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 4:18 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Peter Bleackley
<peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> The town I live in is called Horsham, from the Old English horsa-ham
> "horse-settlement". However, a local legend claims the meaning is "Horsa's
> settlement", and that the town was founded by Horsa himself. The earliest
> historical record of the town is from 947 AD, but it would be nice to
> believe that the legend had some substance to it. "The Lore of the Land: A
> Guide to England's Legends, from Spring-Heeled Jack to the Witches of
> Warboys" by Jennifer Westwood and Jacqueline Simpson records several legends
> that have arisen to explain place names, for example "Lichfield" was
> supposed to have been the site of a terrible battle, due to the apparent
> meaning "field of corpses".
>
> Has anyone tried using this phenomenon in world-building?
ObTolkien: The name of Gondolin, the hidden city in the Quenta
Silmarillion, "really" derives from Quenya _Ondolinde_ "singing rock",
but was folk-etymologized as from Sindarin _gond-dolen_ "hidden rock".
--
Andreas Johansson
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 4:37 am ((PDT))
I repeatedly use the place name "Summerseat" (Summerseat, Bury,
Greater Manchester BL9 5, UK), just because it seems so ironic and I'm
pretty unimaginative when it comes to making up place names, sometimes
I just reverse-engineer real place names to make something in Nauspayr.
On a vaguely related note, having just started a course in Romani
linguistics I discovered these alternative place names:
u baro rašaj (the big priest) = Rome
baro foro (big town) = Capital city
kiralengro them (cheese country) = Switzerland
nevo foro (new town) = Neustadt
xačerdino them (burned country) = Brandenburg
čovaxanjakro them (witches' country) = Hessen
grajeskro them (horse town) = Braunschweig
It seems Romani translates place names literally (I don't know any
German, but is "Hexen" witch?). Apart from Rome, which I just love :)
On 4 Oct 2010, at 12:00, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Peter Bleackley
> <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>> The town I live in is called Horsham, from the Old English horsa-ham
>> "horse-settlement". However, a local legend claims the meaning is
>> "Horsa's
>> settlement", and that the town was founded by Horsa himself. The
>> earliest
>> historical record of the town is from 947 AD, but it would be nice to
>> believe that the legend had some substance to it. "The Lore of the
>> Land: A
>> Guide to England's Legends, from Spring-Heeled Jack to the Witches of
>> Warboys" by Jennifer Westwood and Jacqueline Simpson records
>> several legends
>> that have arisen to explain place names, for example "Lichfield" was
>> supposed to have been the site of a terrible battle, due to the
>> apparent
>> meaning "field of corpses".
>>
>> Has anyone tried using this phenomenon in world-building?
>
> ObTolkien: The name of Gondolin, the hidden city in the Quenta
> Silmarillion, "really" derives from Quenya _Ondolinde_ "singing rock",
> but was folk-etymologized as from Sindarin _gond-dolen_ "hidden rock".
>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Johansson
>
> Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Toponymic Etymological Mythopoesis
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 5:34 am ((PDT))
Den 4. okt. 2010 kl. 12.50 skreiv Peter Bleackley:
> The town I live in is called Horsham, from the Old English horsa-
> ham "horse-settlement". However, a local legend claims the meaning
> is "Horsa's settlement", and that the town was founded by Horsa
> himself. The earliest historical record of the town is from 947 AD,
> but it would be nice to believe that the legend had some substance
> to it.
Founders putting their names on settlement seems to be common; there
are numerous examples in England. However it doesn't need to be the
historic Horsa, as he probably got many namesakes later with the fame
he acquired.
You sometimes have to use criminology methods when digging up ancient
history, and I would say the culprits are likely to have a much
stronger motive for naming their settlement after its founder than
just naming it after a bunch of animals.
> Has anyone tried using this phenomenon in world-building?
I have been doing a lot of name research in Uriania, but mostly the
other way around. The names I picked out of the air in my youth and I
have since tried analysing them with my growing knowledge of
linguistics. A blatantly obvious example is the inlet which the
Urianians called Sektana, which seems to mean the sixth. There are
six major rivers in the south. But the name is probably related to
the Suraetua word siki, meaning 'finger'. The Suraetua are the former
inhabitants of the area. When the Vikings took over the place, they
called it Víkafjǫrðr, disregarding the former name. Later the
region became a Scottish possession, and the fjord and the town that
had grown up there came to be called Wickford, despite the poor
fordability of the river there. It used to be the most important town
in the south, a natural harbour for trips to and from the Viking
possessions in Ireland and the western islands. But later the focus
shifted eastward, and today, Wickford is a small town about the size
of its Essex namesake.
LEF
Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________
6a. Reliable Reference for definitions...
Posted by: "Jeff Sheets" sheets.j...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 6:09 am ((PDT))
Hey Conlang list. It's been a while since I posted. I recently took the
plunge back into college, and find myself writing a paper on conlanging (Not
particularly surprising, I think). One of the sources I'm using is
Wikipedia, the bane of Academics everywhere. That said, I'd like to replace
it with a more respected source... So...
Is anyone aware of any journal articles that define the terms specific to
conlanging? "Conlang", "artlang", "auxlang", and "engelang" are the terms I
most need to be able to point at. Though I'm not concerned with it if there
are no such articles, since I'm only using Wikipedia as a source for these
definitions, and not for any other info, I would like to be able to write
the paper without referencing the big, scary, non-peer-reviewed, community
driven thought-festival.
Thanks!
Jeff Sheets
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 6:32 am ((PDT))
Through the University of Manchester's Portal, I managed to find a
load of references in "Linguistics and Language Behaviour Abstracts",
however none of the e-resources appear to be accessible... (?)
However I can tell you that the journals are:
Grundlagenstudien aus Kybernetik und Geisteswissenschaft (GrKG/
Humankybernetik) (vol. 50, issue. 4, pages 190-194) and (vol. 33,
issue. 4, pages 147-150) (which references this list, it seems!)
Interface (vol. 15, issue. 2, pages 203-221)
And there is a book (apparently) called "Esperanto, Interlinguistics,
and Planned Language" by Humphrey Tonkin which is less about Esperanto
and more about conlanging generally...
Don't know if that helps
On 4 Oct 2010, at 14:06, Jeff Sheets wrote:
> Hey Conlang list. It's been a while since I posted. I recently
> took the
> plunge back into college, and find myself writing a paper on
> conlanging (Not
> particularly surprising, I think). One of the sources I'm using is
> Wikipedia, the bane of Academics everywhere. That said, I'd like to
> replace
> it with a more respected source... So...
>
> Is anyone aware of any journal articles that define the terms
> specific to
> conlanging? "Conlang", "artlang", "auxlang", and "engelang" are the
> terms I
> most need to be able to point at. Though I'm not concerned with it
> if there
> are no such articles, since I'm only using Wikipedia as a source for
> these
> definitions, and not for any other info, I would like to be able to
> write
> the paper without referencing the big, scary, non-peer-reviewed,
> community
> driven thought-festival.
>
> Thanks!
> Jeff Sheets
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 6:56 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Jeff Sheets <sheets.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is anyone aware of any journal articles that define the terms specific to
> conlanging? "Conlang", "artlang", "auxlang", and "engelang" are the
It's been a couple of years since I read it, and I don't have a copy
to hand, but I think Sarah Higley's _Hildegard of Bingen's Unknown
Language_ probably uses and defines all of those terms -- certainly
"conlang" and almost certainly "artlang". Arika Okrent's recent book
might do so as well, but, being for a popular audience, it may be less
acceptable as an academic source than Sarah's book -- I'm not sure.
Sarah's article "Audience, Uglossia, and CONLANG: Inventing Languages
on the Internet" uses the agentive nouns "conlanger" and "auxlanger"
but not "auxlang", "engelang" or "artlang":
http://journal.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.php
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (5)
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6d. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 7:08 am ((PDT))
You might get some mileage out of Wikipedia by checking out the sources
referenced in the relevant articles.
Too bad Wiki gets as bad a rap that it does. I've run across a number of
conventional, respected sources with suspect information (different topics),
yet somehow they escape stigma. True not everything in Wiki is accurate, but
few other sources have people marking troublesome articles as such.
Lee
--- On Mon, 10/4/10, Jeff Sheets <sheets.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jeff Sheets <sheets.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: Reliable Reference for definitions...
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 8:06 AM
Hey Conlang list. It's been a while since I posted. I recently took the
plunge back into college, and find myself writing a paper on conlanging (Not
particularly surprising, I think). One of the sources I'm using is
Wikipedia, the bane of Academics everywhere. That said, I'd like to replace
it with a more respected source... So...
Is anyone aware of any journal articles that define the terms specific to
conlanging? "Conlang", "artlang", "auxlang", and "engelang" are the terms I
most need to be able to point at. Though I'm not concerned with it if there
are no such articles, since I'm only using Wikipedia as a source for these
definitions, and not for any other info, I would like to be able to write
the paper without referencing the big, scary, non-peer-reviewed, community
driven thought-festival.
Thanks!
Jeff Sheets
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6e. Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 7:14 am ((PDT))
I just took a look at Okrent's book. (It's displayed prominently on the shelf
in my cube, BTW.) The notes section in the back contains a lengthy list of
sources, many of which appear to be academic.
Lee
--- On Mon, 10/4/10, Jim Henry <jimhenry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Reliable Reference for definitions...
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 8:52 AM
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Jeff Sheets <sheets.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is anyone aware of any journal articles that define the terms specific to
> conlanging? "Conlang", "artlang", "auxlang", and "engelang" are the
It's been a couple of years since I read it, and I don't have a copy
to hand, but I think Sarah Higley's _Hildegard of Bingen's Unknown
Language_ probably uses and defines all of those terms -- certainly
"conlang" and almost certainly "artlang". Arika Okrent's recent book
might do so as well, but, being for a popular audience, it may be less
acceptable as an academic source than Sarah's book -- I'm not sure.
Sarah's article "Audience, Uglossia, and CONLANG: Inventing Languages
on the Internet" uses the agentive nouns "conlanger" and "auxlanger"
but not "auxlang", "engelang" or "artlang":
http://journal.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.php
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________
7.1. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Oct 4, 2010 8:05 am ((PDT))
On 2 October 2010 20:59, Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > And a question more for the conlang world, Flipping through my book, I
> find
> > there are two kinds of yes in Norwegian, "ja" and "jo." "Ja" is like the
> yes
> > we're all familiar with in English, while "jo" is an affirmative answer
> to a
> > question asked using a negative, and is also used as a slightly doubtful
> > "yes."
> >
> > Example: ja/yes
> >
> > Kommer du fra Norge?
> > Do you come from Norway?
> >
> > Ja, jeg kommer fra Norge.
> > Yes, I come from Norway.
> >
> > Example: jo/yes - answer to a question with a negative
> >
> > Kommer du ikke fra Norge?
> > Don't you come from Norway?
> >
> > Jo, jeg kommer fra Norway.
> > Yes, I come from Norway.
> >
> > Example: jo/slightly doubtful yes
> >
> > Liker du norsk mat?
> > Do you like Norwegian food?
> >
> > Jo, jeg liker norsk mat.
> > Well, yes, I like Norwegian food.
> >
> > So, the question is, does anyone do this with "yes" in their conlang(s)?
> Or
> > perhaps something similar with "no"?
>
> German does something pretty similar with "doch" - it's not only an
> explicitly positive reply to a negative question ("Du kommst nicht aus
> Norwegen, oder? - Doch, ich komme aus Norwegen.") but can also be a
> slightly doubtful yes ("Magst du norwegisches Essen? - Doch, ja, ich
> mag schon norwegisches Essen").
>
> I wonder whether French "si" can also do this.
>
>
Nope. If anything, _si_ is always a forceful "yes" as a reply to a negative
question. It can never be used to indicate a doubtful "yes". For that,
Spoken French has a different word: _m'ouais_ (also spelt _mouais_) and
pronounced [mwɛ] or [mːwɛ] (or even [mːːːːːwɛ] :) ). It means something like
"yes, somewhat", "yes, maybe" (it's an extension of _ouais_, the Spoken
French equivalent of _oui_). It's strictly a word of the spoken language.
Written French doesn't have anything like that.
So in French, the examples above would become (in Spoken French):
Ouais/yes:
Tu viens d'la Norvège ?
Do you come from Norway?
Ouais, j'viens d'la Norvège.
Yes, I come from Norway.
Si/yes as reply to a negative question:
Tu viens pas d'la Norvège ?
Don't you come from Norway?
Si, j'viens d'la Norvège.
Yes, I do come from Norway.
M'ouais/slightly doubtful yes:
T'aimes bien manger norvégien ?
Do you like Norwegian food?
M'ouais, j'aime bien (manger norvégien). (you'd normally not repeat that
part with a doubtful yes)
Well, yes, I like it, somewhat.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (37)
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