There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: N+ADJ V or N ADV+V
From: David Johnson
2a. Re: Conlangs in Harry Potter? (was: Teresa Edgerton conlangs)
From: Sai
2b. Re: Conlangs in Harry Potter? (was: Teresa Edgerton conlangs)
From: And Rosta
3a. Re: Conlanging talk @ Edinburgh
From: Richard Littauer
4a. Re: An engelang to minimize or contain abstractness
From: John Vertical
4b. Re: An engelang to minimize or contain abstractness
From: Gary Shannon
5.1. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Carsten Becker
5.2. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Patrick Dunn
5.3. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Sai
5.4. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: David Peterson
5.5. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Gary Shannon
5.6. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Jim Henry
5.7. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: Sai
5.8. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
From: David Peterson
6a. Hitman scam
From: Sai
6b. Re: Hitman scam
From: Roger Mills
6c. Re: Hitman scam
From: <deinx nxtxr>
7a. Re: Broad or narrow usage of "phonology? -- was Re: What is the stat
From: And Rosta
8a. Re: Conlanging in The Onion
From: Eric Christopherson
9. A vignette ...
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
Messages
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1a. Re: N+ADJ V or N ADV+V
Posted by: "David Johnson" lethketa-boa...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 8:15 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:35:06 -0700, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I am playing with a new grammar and I had decided that adjectives
>would follow their noun, and adverbs would precede their verbs. But
>then I noticed that adverbs and adjectives could be interchangeable
>depending on how you analyzed a sequence of words: "House TOPIC boy
>quick enter." Is "quick" an adjective modifying "boy", or an adverb
>modifying "enter"? It seems like it could go either way.
>
Hi Gary,
Another approach would be to mark the start of the verb phrase, perhaps with
a tense/mood/aspect particle as in Yoruba, or a specialist predicate marker
as in Tok Pisin?
So you'd have:
Noun Adj Particle Verb
Noun Particle Adv Verb
Like the other methods suggested, this would mean words like quick could be
correctly interpreted without the need for affixes.
David
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Conlangs in Harry Potter? (was: Teresa Edgerton conlangs)
Posted by: "Sai" s...@saizai.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 8:25 am ((PDT))
BTW, y'all should go read this:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
Srsly, try out the first two chapters at least. I promise it's good.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Conlangs in Harry Potter? (was: Teresa Edgerton conlangs)
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:28 pm ((PDT))
Eugene Oh, On 08/10/2010 17:19:
> Two things:
>
> (a) Avada Kedavra isn't utter gibberish. Aramaic "avda kedavra" means "what
> was said has been done". See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/abracadabra.
plus an echo of "have the cadaver" or "have at the cadaver".
--And.
Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: Conlanging talk @ Edinburgh
Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 10:01 am ((PDT))
Thanks Sai. I wasn't planning on posting this here, given the lack of
response to my last talk, and the fact that no one seems to be conlanging in
Edinburgh besides me and another person I know personally.
Yes, I will be holding a conlang workshop next wednesday. You all are
invited, if you would like to come. I'm going to see if a basic conlang can
be established in a night session. It should be rather fun. This comes from
a talk I gave last Wednesday to 75 people a the university. I'll upload the
videos of it when I finish subtitling them.
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mechthild Czapp <0zu...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Von: Maxime Papillon <salut_vous_au...@hotmail.com>
> > An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > Betreff: Re: Conlanging talk @ Edinburgh
>
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 23:03:42 -0500
> > > From: s...@saizai.com
> > > Subject: Conlanging talk @ Edinburgh
> > > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > >
> > > http://langsoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/blog/?p=169
> >
> >
> > I hope this won't sound offensive or paranoid, but I find that posting a
> > link in an otherwise empty message without any explanation, description,
> or
> > attention-catcher really makes it look like spoofing toward a phishing or
> > otherwise undesirable website. I don't know if others feel the same.
> >
> >
> >
> > Would you be as kind as to introduce us to what we should find at the
> > other end of this link?
> >
> It is related to taronyu's (I forgot his real name) presentation on
> conlanging and says that these will be a conlanging workshop.
>
> or a rickroll...
>
> (SCNR)
>
> ~Mechthild
> --
> Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
>
> My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
>
>
>
> GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos.
> Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: An engelang to minimize or contain abstractness
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:23 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 08:54:22 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
>Most engelangs, it seem to me, especially semantically minimalist ones,
>suffer from an excess of abstraction in their root vocabulary.
(â¦)
>It's occurred to me that one could build a more or less semantically
>minimalist engelang on the reverse principle, with all the built-in
>abstractions confined to a small number of derivational operations,
>all the content root words being concrete nouns or physical action
>verbs, and all abstract words and most or all grammatical functions
>being derived from the concrete/physical roots via a tiny number of
>derivational operations. Following Deutscher, we might also have two
>or three physical-pointing deictic words, with more abstract deixis
>derived from them somehow.
Just in case this wasn't immediately obvious, I suggest looking into the
origins of Greco-Latinate scientific and philosophical vocabulary, a large
part of which was derived exactly in this manner. I imagine many other
languages have used similar procedures to coin native counterparts (Finnish
certainly has, and IIRC Icelandic is another lang that prefers this route).
>We can derive abstract and mental verbs by metaphor or generalization
>from concrete verbs. Abstract nouns can be derived by metaphor or
>generalization from concrete nouns. Concrete modifiers can be derived
>by metonymy from certain prototypical concrete nouns, while abstract
>modifiers can be derived by metaphor from the concrete modifiers.
>(E.g., elephant + metonymy = big, big + metaphor = important; blood +
>metonymy = red, red + metaphor = angry?) Spatial adpositions can be
>derived by metaphor or metonymy from motion verbs and body-part nouns.
>
>Such a simple derivational morphology is apt to be somewhat opaque,
>with many or most of its derivations being idiomatic; is the
>generalization of "mother" going to be "woman" or "parent"? Is the
>metonymy from "father" going to be an adjective "male" or a concrete
>noun for a body part all fathers have? Any suggestions on how to
>ameliorate that without violating the basic design principle would be
>welcome.
I think the problem is that abstractions represent generalizations, not
specializations. From any one natural concept, you can make several of
these: is "elephant" the arketype of "big", or "gray", or "thick-skinned"?
(By contrast, "trunked mammal" is fairly unambiguous.)
The way I see around this is to not use derivational operations but
comparisions: define "big" not simply as "elephantine property" but eg.
"property shared by elephants and mountains". With suitable choice of
original nouns, you may not need anything but a simple juxtaposition with
implied generalization. Maybe a part-of-speech marker.
For an example, Finnish _maailma_ "world", literally "earth+air". I'm told
this is the original Uralic pattern, with the . I've seen some further
examples from Mordvinic, something like "dairy" as "milk+cream".
Hence, "parent" = "mother+father+NOUN"; "woman" = "mother+sister+NOUN";
"red" = "blood+rose+ADJ"; "angry" "yell+berate+ADJ"; "quick" =
"swallow+horse+ADJ"; "marsupial" = "possum+kangaroo+NOUN/ADJ"; "solar
system" = "sun+moon+NOUN"; "acid" = "bile+vinegar+NOUN"; "money" =
"gold+silver+NOUN" (or, depending on the setting - "penny+tenner+NOUN"),
"two" = "eyes+hands+ADJ", etc.
Would be fun to do some more, but as I don't think I have the time to start
a project like this right now, feel free to run with this on your own if
you'd like.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: An engelang to minimize or contain abstractness
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:22 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:23 PM, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For an example, Finnish _maailma_ "world", literally "earth+air". I'm told
> this is the original Uralic pattern, with the . I've seen some further
> examples from Mordvinic, something like "dairy" as "milk+cream".
I'm reminded of the Sanskrit word for "Universe", especially in the
Upanishads, which translates literally "all this".
--gary
Messages in this topic (7)
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5.1. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:03 pm ((PDT))
Am 29.09.2010 03:01 schrieb Sai:
> http://tinyurl.com/conlangmap
>
So far this seems to be almost only readers of Conlang-L. What about
other known venues of conlanging?
C.
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.2. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:05 pm ((PDT))
There are other venues of conlanging?
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Carsten Becker <carb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 29.09.2010 03:01 schrieb Sai:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/conlangmap
>>
>
> So far this seems to be almost only readers of Conlang-L. What about other
> known venues of conlanging?
>
> C.
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.3. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Sai" s...@saizai.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:08 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Carsten Becker <carb...@googlemail.com>wrote:
> So far this seems to be almost only readers of Conlang-L. What about other
> known venues of conlanging?
>
Feel free to repost. :-P
- Sai
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.4. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:08 pm ((PDT))
On Oct 9, 2010, at 3â01 PM, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Am 29.09.2010 03:01 schrieb Sai:
>> http://tinyurl.com/conlangmap
>>
>
> So far this seems to be almost only readers of Conlang-L. What about other
> known venues of conlanging?
The list is composed largely of those conlangers who have seen the link. What a
surprise...
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.5. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:17 pm ((PDT))
CBB conlang forum: http://aveneca.com/cbb/
ZBB conlang forum: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/
--gary
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are other venues of conlanging?
>
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Carsten Becker <carb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am 29.09.2010 03:01 schrieb Sai:
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/conlangmap
>>>
>>
>> So far this seems to be almost only readers of Conlang-L. What about other
>> known venues of conlanging?
>>
>> C.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
> to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
> Rimbaud
>
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.6. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 4:09 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Sai <s...@saizai.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Carsten Becker <carb...@googlemail.com>wrote:
>
>> So far this seems to be almost only readers of Conlang-L. What about other
>> known venues of conlanging?
> Feel free to repost. :-P
I posted it to the #conlang IRC channel some days ago, but by the
nature of things, that was only seen by the people logged in at the
time.
I suggest those of us who have websites with lists of conlangy links
could add links to the map, which would have a longer-term effect.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.7. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "Sai" s...@saizai.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 4:56 pm ((PDT))
FWIW, it's linked on the conlang.org sidebar.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (57)
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5.8. Re: Worldwide conlanger locations map, v2
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 5:05 pm ((PDT))
On Oct 9, 2010, at 4â54 PM, Sai wrote:
> FWIW, it's linked on the conlang.org sidebar.
I also posted it on Ideolengua today.
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (57)
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6a. Hitman scam
Posted by: "Sai" conla...@saizai.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 5:59 pm ((PDT))
Some of you may have received this recently.
It was sent to a couple addresses that are known only to a limited number of
people, so I'm reasonably sure that this was sent to everybody in Don
Boozer's address book, which was sold when his accounts were compromised.
You'll probably be getting more of the same in the future.
Ignore them, or forward to ab...@ymail.com and your local FBI office. It's
another 419 scam (albeit one with multiple extra felonies; US law at least
doesn't take kindly to death threats and blackmail). The sending IP is in
Nigeria, so they're outside the reach of effective law enforcement.
For more probable and somewhat hilarious action, send it to these guys:
http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185181
- Sai
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hitman Sapp <hitman_sni...@ymail.com>
Date: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 6:43 PM
Subject: URGENT REPLY!!!! DO OR DIE.......
To:
This is the only way I could contact you for now, I want you to be very
careful about this and keep this secret with you until I make out space for
us to see. You have no need of knowing who I am or where I am from. I know
this may sound very surprising to you but it's the situation. I have been
paid some ransom in advance to terminate you with some reasons listed to me
by my employer. It's someone I believe you call a friend; I have followed
you closely for a while now and have seen that you are innocent of the
accusations he leveled against you. Do not contact the police or try to send
a copy of this to them, because if you do, I will know, and I might be
pushed to do what I have been paid to do. Besides, this is the first time I
turn out to be a betrayer in my job. I took pity on you, that is why I have
made up my mind to help you if you are willing to help yourself.
Now listen, I will arrange for us to see face to face, but before that, I
need $9,000. I will come to your home or you determine where you wish we
meet; I repeat, do not arrange for the cops and if you play hard to get, it
will be extended to your family. Do not set any camera to cover us or set up
any tape to record our conversation; my employer is in my control now.
Payment details will be provided for you to make a part payment of $3,000
first, which will serve as guarantee that you are ready to co-operate, then
I will post a copy of the video tape that contains his request for me to
terminate you which will be enough evidence for you to take any legal action
against him before he employs another person for the job. You will pay the
balance of $6,000 once you receive the tape.
Warning; do not contact the police, make sure you stay indoors once it is
7.30pm every day until this whole thing is sorted out, if you neglect any
of these warnings, you will have yourself to blame. You do not have much
time, so get back to me immediately
Note: I will advise you keep this to yourself alone, not even a friend or a
family member should know about it because it could be one of them.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Hitman scam
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:55 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 10/9/10, Sai <conla...@saizai.com> wrote:
> Some of you may have received this
> recently.
Me. Put in spam file.
>
.......
> For more probable and somewhat hilarious action, send it to
> these guys:
>
> http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185181
>
very amusing. I considered sending a reply in the name of Dewey, Cheatham and
Howe, Attys. at Law, but decided not to get involved.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Hitman scam
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:34 am ((PDT))
On 10/9/10 8:57 PM, Sai wrote:
> Some of you may have received this recently.
>
> It was sent to a couple addresses that are known only to a limited number of
> people, so I'm reasonably sure that this was sent to everybody in Don
> Boozer's address book, which was sold when his accounts were compromised.
> You'll probably be getting more of the same in the future.
>
> Ignore them, or forward to ab...@ymail.com and your local FBI office. It's
> another 419 scam (albeit one with multiple extra felonies; US law at least
> doesn't take kindly to death threats and blackmail). The sending IP is in
> Nigeria, so they're outside the reach of effective law enforcement.
Don't waste time with the FBI. I've had death threats before, and
actually had to make a huge stink just to get them to take a report. I
never really heard anything much back after that other than a mention of
trying to get the sender's probation revoked. With gangs operating
outside the US there isn't really anything than can do, nor will they
with all their efforts going to the "war on terror".
Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Broad or narrow usage of "phonology? -- was Re: What is the stat
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:11 pm ((PDT))
David Peterson, On 08/10/2010 01:04:
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 4â33 PM, And Rosta wrote:
>
>> Jim Henry, On 07/10/2010 22:04:
>>>
>>> Is "phonology" widely used here on CONLANG, or among conlangers
>>> generally, to mean only "phoneme inventory"?
>>
>> I think the answer is both Yes and No. "No" in that conlangers
>> realize there is more to phonology than the phoneme inventory,
>> especially now that the web makes knowledge easily available to
>> all. "Yes" in that descriptions of conlangs' phonologies tend to be
>> descriptions only of phoneme inventories. But I think that tends to
>> be true too of short descriptions of natlangs too. It's my
>> impression that very few conlangers have an interest in pure
>> phonology (with phonetics abstracted away).
>
> This may have been generally true at one time, but I find it to no
> longer be the case (generally). The majority of conlangs I see with
> descriptions on the web go beyond a simple list of phones. An
> entirely separate question is whether or not the added information is
> any "good" (difficult to define, but not so difficult to come to a
> judgment about). I look at a lot of conlang webpages (pretty much any
> and all that I come across), and more often than not, I end up
> looking at the phonology, the orthography (if there is one), and the
> nominal morphology (my main interests). What I see a lot, rather than
> a mere list of phones, is a description of phonotactics
> that's...derivative, if that's the right word--almost as if someone
> is using the Language Construction Kit as a checklist (perhaps why
> one of the things I see often is a short description of stress rules
> and a lengthier description of permissible word shapes).
Now that you mention it, I realize that I have indeed often seen conlang
descriptions containing perfunctory indications of phonotactics.
I think your "I find it to no longer be the case" is intended to refer only to
my "descriptions of conlangs' phonologies tend to be descriptions only of
phoneme inventories", rather than, alas, also to my "very few conlangers have
an interest in pure phonology (with phonetics abstracted away)".
--And.
Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. Re: Conlanging in The Onion
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 11:51 pm ((PDT))
On Oct 7, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Garth Wallace wrote:
> Well, tangentially (fortunately?):
>
> http://www.theonion.com/articles/historians-admit-to-inventing-ancient-greeks%2C18209/
>
> "Nguyen-Whiteman acknowledged she was also tasked with altering
> documents ranging from early Bibles to the writings of Thomas
> Jefferson to reflect a "Classical Greek" influencea task that also
> included the creation, from scratch, of a language based on modern
> Greek that could pass as its ancient precursor."
Nice!
This reminds me of some weird pseudohistory[1] theories I recently learned of:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Timofeevich_Fomenko>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis>
Fascinating stuff.
[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudohistory>
Messages in this topic (3)
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9. A vignette ...
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:04 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
I have just finished a little vignette of a lostlang. The language
is named "Attidian" and is a cousin of Old Albic. The corpus consists
of a single inscription of seven words.
Here's the link:
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/attidian.html
Also, I have made some further additions to my conlang page (see
signature for its address).
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (1)
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