There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Charlie
1b. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Philip Newton
1c. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Carsten Becker
1d. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Samuel Stutter
1e. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Lars Finsen
1f. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Carsten Becker
1g. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: Lars Finsen
1h. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
From: BPJ
2.1. Re: XSAMPA question
From: BPJ
Messages
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1a. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:38 pm ((PDT))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@...>
wrote:
>
> The Dutch word "dagboek" means both "diary" and "journal" (Dutch has
> "journaal" as well, but it refers normally to the 8 o'clock TV news)
> and is transparently "day-book", like the Esperanto and Volapük
> words. German seems to have "Tagebuch" here.
>
"Tagebuch" seems to fill the bill for diary, journal and log. What I find
interesting is the verb "führen" used with it to translate 'to keep a diary.'
I'm curious about the semantic shift for that usage.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (25)
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1b. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:54 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 4:26 AM, Charlie <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Tagebuch" seems to fill the bill for diary, journal and log. What I find
> interesting is the verb "führen" used with it to translate 'to keep a
> diary.' I'm curious about the semantic shift for that usage.
Interesting indeed.
On the other hand, you also use it for accounting - "Buchführung".
Which in English could also be bookkeeping, but what an accounting
does is not simply "keep" the books on a shelf somewhere! So there
you've also got semantic shift.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (25)
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1c. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:42 pm ((PDT))
Yet I perceive "Tagebuch" as feminine, as Karen mentioned. Tagebücher
are books teenage girls write their teenage thoughts into, and it's all
pink and every entry begins with "Dear diary...". Or maybe I'm just too
much shaped by the stereotypes spread by anglophone media? However it's
not unusual to talk about a male author's Tagebücher in German. Yet, I
prefer to call my journal a "Journal" in German, too.
My ⬠0.02.
Carsten
Am 27.10.2010 04:26, schrieb Charlie:
> "Tagebuch" seems to fill the bill for diary, journal and log. What I find
> interesting is the verb "führen" used with it to translate 'to keep a diary.'
> I'm curious about the semantic shift for that usage.
>
> Charlie
--
Ayeri Grammar (under construction): http://bit.ly/9dSyTI (PDF)
Der Sprachbaukasten: http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk
Messages in this topic (25)
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1d. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:50 pm ((PDT))
On 27 Oct 2010, at 05:51, Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 4:26 AM, Charlie <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Tagebuch" seems to fill the bill for diary, journal and log. What I find
>> interesting is the verb "führen" used with it to translate 'to keep a
>> diary.' I'm curious about the semantic shift for that usage.
>
> Interesting indeed.
>
> On the other hand, you also use it for accounting - "Buchführung".
> Which in English could also be bookkeeping, but what an accounting
> does is not simply "keep" the books on a shelf somewhere! So there
> you've also got semantic shift.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
I think what's meant here is an older usage of "keep" - like keeping up to date.
Messages in this topic (25)
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1e. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:32 am ((PDT))
Den 27. okt. 2010 kl. 04.26 skreiv Charlie:
> "Tagebuch" seems to fill the bill for diary, journal and log. What
> I find interesting is the verb "führen" used with it to translate
> 'to keep a diary.' I'm curious about the semantic shift for that
> usage.
Führen is used generally of old for the entering of written
information on paper. The usage has been borrowed into Scandinavian,
too. In Scandinavian it is often associated with the adverb inn/in,
corresponding to German _ein_. This you can hear sometimes in German,
too, I believe. Maybe that gives a hint about the origin of the shift.
LEF
Messages in this topic (25)
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1f. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:27 am ((PDT))
There's "eintragen" in German, which means "to enter". "Einführen"
exists as well, and it's one of those propositional verb compounds which
seem calqued from Latin, however, it means "to introduce".
Carsten
Am 27.10.2010 11:29, schrieb Lars Finsen:
> In Scandinavian it is often associated with the adverb inn/in,
> corresponding to German _ein_. This you can hear sometimes in German,
> too, I believe. Maybe that gives a hint about the origin of the shift.
>
> LEF
--
Ayeri Grammar (under construction): http://bit.ly/9dSyTI (PDF)
Der Sprachbaukasten: http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:19 am ((PDT))
Den 27. okt. 2010 kl. 12.23 skreiv Carsten Becker:
> There's "eintragen" in German, which means "to enter". "Einführen"
> exists as well, and it's one of those propositional verb compounds
> which seem calqued from Latin, however, it means "to introduce".
Ach so, then our Scandinavian usage must have another source, perhaps
Dutch or Low German?
LEF
Messages in this topic (25)
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1h. Re: YAEUT : journal vs diary
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:29 am ((PDT))
2010-10-27 11:29, Lars Finsen skrev:
> Den 27. okt. 2010 kl. 04.26 skreiv Charlie:
>
>> "Tagebuch" seems to fill the bill for diary, journal and log.
>> What I find interesting is the verb "führen" used with it to
>> translate 'to keep a diary.' I'm curious about the semantic
>> shift for that usage.
>
> Führen is used generally of old for the entering of written
> information on paper. The usage has been borrowed into
> Scandinavian, too. In Scandinavian it is often associated with the
> adverb inn/in, corresponding to German _ein_. This you can hear
> sometimes in German, too, I believe. Maybe that gives a hint about
> the origin of the shift.
>
> LEF
>
In Swedish there is a distinction between _införa_
"introduce" and _föra in_ "make entries". Not so in
Norwegian? (Would surprise me! :-) It breaks down, though,
with the action noun, agent noun and participles which are
all _inför-_ for both meanings! This is a pattern, not an
exception.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (25)
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2.1. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:17 am ((PDT))
2010-10-25 21:01, Gary Shannon skrev:
Well, cited an old book actually:
> These rules are not to be formally taught in the first and
> second years, but pointed out by examples, so that the
> visual and auditory image may be associated.
This is true. Even ten-year-olds IME have difficulty
grasping formulated spelling rules even for a more
phonemically spelled language like Swedish, but so have many
adults!
> To illustrate: When there are two or more vowels in a word
> of one syllable, the first vowel is long, and the last
> silent, as: came, leaf, coat, rain.
Clearly nothing is/was gained by confusing digraphs and
silent-e marking like that. At least _oi/oy, oo_ and
_au/aw_ are regular exceptions (nor _coin_ and _cone_ nor
_room_ and _roam_ nor _brawn_ and _brain_ are homophones --
nasals in all examples not significant: _toy, too, toe_! :-)
and there are numerous irregular exceptions/conflicting
rules, like _dead, great, blood_ and -se_ to mark /s/ vs.
_-s_ /z/. Clearly shows how confusing English spelling is,
even, or especially, to native speakers, destroying their
sense of phone*ics.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (54)
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