There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: changes of liquids
From: David McCann
1b. Re: changes of liquids
From: Tim Smith
1c. Re: changes of liquids
From: David McCann
1d. Re: changes of liquids
From: David McCann
1e. Re: changes of liquids
From: Roger Mills
1f. Re: changes of liquids
From: <deinx nxtxr>
1g. Re: changes of liquids
From: <deinx nxtxr>
1h. Re: changes of liquids
From: Alex Fink
2a. Re: "Best" way to write a complete description of a language
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2b. Re: "Best" way to write a complete description of a language
From: Charlie
3a. Naming Language for NaNoWriMo: Phonology & Orthography
From: Arthaey Angosii
3b. Re: Naming Language for NaNoWriMo: Phonology & Orthography
From: neo gu
4a. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
From: <deinx nxtxr>
4b. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
From: <deinx nxtxr>
4c. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
From: Mechthild Czapp
4d. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
From: <deinx nxtxr>
5a. Re: Conlang Graffiti?
From: <deinx nxtxr>
5b. Re: Conlang Graffiti?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
6a. Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
From: Gary Shannon
6b. Re: Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
From: Eugene Oh
6c. Re: Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
From: Richard Littauer
6d. Re: Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
From: <deinx nxtxr>
6e. 30 min. auxlang? (< Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang)
From: <deinx nxtxr>
Messages
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1a. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:01 am ((PDT))
On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 07:08 -0400, Roman Rausch wrote:
> What are the typical diachronic changes of liquid consonants?
To give a rough list of cases I know
1. Merger of /r/ and /l/, as in Upper Egyptian and various forms of
Indo-Iranian.
2. Partial merger
2a. Medial /l/ to /r/ in Rumanian and Genoese
2b. Final /r/ to /l/, as with some Caribbean Spanish: <puerta> /pwelta/
3. Loss
3a. Final /r/, in English, Malay (Malaya), Catalan (partial), etc
3b. Medial /l/ in Portuguese
4. Velarisation and subsequent change, as final /l/ in many languages
such as London lower class <bell> /bÉw/
5. Palatalisation and subsequent change
5a. /l/ palatalised initially in Catalan and after C in many Romance
languages.
5b. /Ê/ to /j/ or /Ä/, as Sp llama, Pt chama
5c. /rʸ/ to /ž/ in some Slavonic
6. Change to fricative
6a. Medieval North French medial /r/ to /z/; lost due to spelling and
other dialects, surviving in <chaise> "chair" and in the Channel
Islands.
6b. Strong (rolled) /r/, when contrasting with weak (flapped), to /Ê/
and then /Ï/ or /x/; e.g. Brazilian Portuguese
The change of /d/ to a liquid medially is a typical example of
increasing sonority between vowels, so the reverse would be unlikely.
But I could imagine a liquid strengthening to a stop when initial.
Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "Tim Smith" tim.langsm...@verizon.net
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:25 am ((PDT))
On 10/30/2010 11:57 AM, David McCann wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 07:08 -0400, Roman Rausch wrote:
>> What are the typical diachronic changes of liquid consonants?
>
> To give a rough list of cases I know
>
> 1. Merger of /r/ and /l/, as in Upper Egyptian and various forms of
> Indo-Iranian.
>
> 2. Partial merger
> 2a. Medial /l/ to /r/ in Rumanian and Genoese
> 2b. Final /r/ to /l/, as with some Caribbean Spanish:<puerta> /pwelta/
>
> 3. Loss
> 3a. Final /r/, in English, Malay (Malaya), Catalan (partial), etc
> 3b. Medial /l/ in Portuguese
>
> 4. Velarisation and subsequent change, as final /l/ in many languages
> such as London lower class<bell> /bÉw/
>
> 5. Palatalisation and subsequent change
> 5a. /l/ palatalised initially in Catalan and after C in many Romance
> languages.
> 5b. /Ê/ to /j/ or /Ä/, as Sp llama, Pt chama
Also, I think, to /Z/ in Argentinian Spanish. (I've heard "calle"
pronounced /kaZe/ in a modern Argentinian song.)
- Tim (momentarily delurking again)
> 5c. /rʸ/ to /ž/ in some Slavonic
>
> 6. Change to fricative
> 6a. Medieval North French medial /r/ to /z/; lost due to spelling and
> other dialects, surviving in<chaise> "chair" and in the Channel
> Islands.
> 6b. Strong (rolled) /r/, when contrasting with weak (flapped), to /Ê/
> and then /Ï/ or /x/; e.g. Brazilian Portuguese
>
> The change of /d/ to a liquid medially is a typical example of
> increasing sonority between vowels, so the reverse would be unlikely.
> But I could imagine a liquid strengthening to a stop when initial.
>
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:45 am ((PDT))
On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 12:22 -0400, Tim Smith wrote:
> On 10/30/2010 11:57 AM, David McCann wrote:
> > 5a. /l/ palatalised initially in Catalan and after C in many Romance
> > languages.
> Also, I think, to /Z/ in Argentinian Spanish. (I've heard "calle"
> pronounced /kaZe/ in a modern Argentinian song.)
True. /kaže/ for <calle> is common in America, and heard in Spain
(though some dislike it, I believe). You can also get /kaÇ°e/, which is
deprecated in Spain, though /Ç°o/ for <yo> is common.
Messages in this topic (9)
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1d. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:55 am ((PDT))
On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 07:08 -0400, Roman Rausch wrote:
> What are the typical diachronic changes of liquid consonants?
I should also have mentioned the devoicing of initial liquids in Welsh. That
would be a nice change for a Romlang:
lama > lÊ°ama > Å¡ama (as in Semitic)
rama > rÊ°ama > hama
Messages in this topic (9)
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1e. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:58 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 10/30/10, David McCann <da...@polymathy.plus.com> wrote:
> Roman Rausch wrote:
> > What are the typical diachronic changes of liquid
> consonants?
>
> To give a rough list of cases I know
>
> 1. Merger of /r/ and /l/, as in Upper Egyptian and various
> forms of
> Indo-Iranian.
Also in Polynesian languages-- Proto PH had both *l and *r, but individual lgs.
have either /l/ or /r/.
>
(snips)
> 6. Change to fricative
> 6b. Strong (rolled) /r/, when contrasting with weak
> (flapped), to /Ê/
> and then /Ï/ or /x/; e.g. Brazilian Portuguese
There's a Sumatran Malay dialect (Ogan) where /x/ corresponds to std. Ml. /r/
(but see next)
>
> The change of /d/ to a liquid medially is a typical example
> of
> increasing sonority between vowels, so the reverse would be
> unlikely.
> But I could imagine a liquid strengthening to a stop when
> initial.
The only similar case I can think of in Austronesian lgs. is the fate of the
proto velar fricative, symbolized *R-- it > /g/ in many Philippine lgs., /r/ in
Malay and others, /h/ in several lgs., /0/ in Javanese. (This suggests to me
that early Malay had both **R and **r; in std. Ml. the merger was toward /r/,
while in Ogan perhaps **r merged with the velar, then > fricative. But as you
point out, /r/ regardless of source can easily > /G/, /x/ or /X/.
In the Timorese language Atoni (AKA Dawan) **r from several sources, **n and
**l all merge > /n/
Messages in this topic (9)
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1f. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:36 pm ((PDT))
On 10/30/10 7:08 AM, Roman Rausch wrote:
> What are the typical diachronic changes of liquid consonants?
> I noticed a vocalization of a palatalized [l] to [j], as Italian _piazza_
> from L. _platea_ and of a velarized [l] to [w] in Slavic, as Polish
> _Paweł_
> /'pavew/. Also in Polish, it seems that palatalized [r] becomes [Z`], a
> retroflex fricative, spelled _rz_ (correct me, if wrong).
> I guess both [r]> [l] and [l]> [r] are quite possible developments (the
> latter in Sanskrit?).
There's also the shift of final [l] to [w] in Portuguese. I'm not sure
but this could only be a feature of the Brazilian dialects.
> Is there anything else? Does reverse rhotacism [r]> [s] appear? Or
> something like [r]> alveolar flap> [d]?
> It somehow seems to me that liquids are among the most stable consonants, so
> when creating a language family, one is a bit stuck with them if they appear
> in the proto-language.
Another feature is of Portuguese is the initial rhotic becoming [h].
Messages in this topic (9)
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1g. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:42 pm ((PDT))
On 10/30/10 12:22 PM, Tim Smith wrote:
>> 3. Loss
>> 3a. Final /r/, in English, Malay (Malaya), Catalan (partial), etc
>> 3b. Medial /l/ in Portuguese
>>
>> 4. Velarisation and subsequent change, as final /l/ in many languages
>> such as London lower class<bell> /bÉw/
Basically the same thing I mentioned about Portuguese in my previous
post. You'll see similar examples in many other European languages like
Dutch or French.
>> 5. Palatalisation and subsequent change
>> 5a. /l/ palatalised initially in Catalan and after C in many Romance
>> languages.
>> 5b. /Ê/ to /j/ or /Ä/, as Sp llama, Pt chama
>
> Also, I think, to /Z/ in Argentinian Spanish. (I've heard "calle"
> pronounced /kaZe/ in a modern Argentinian song.)
In Chileno dialects you'll hear that too. In fact you'll hear /Ê/
variably pronounced [Ê], [j], [dÊ] or [Ê] depending on the speaker,
and/or situation.
Messages in this topic (9)
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1h. Re: changes of liquids
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:52 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:08:09 -0400, Roman Rausch <ara...@mail.ru> wrote:
>What are the typical diachronic changes of liquid consonants?
A type that hasn't been mentioned yet is direct frication of [l] and kin. I
can't call to mind an example of [l] > [K\] just now that I'm sure of, but
Mongolian sure looks like one. Armenian experienced [5] > [R]; some
Albanian dialects show [5] ~ [D]; Scottish Gaelic has dialect areas where
its [5_d] becomes [D_G] or even [t_d_G] (note that unlike fricatives there's
no voicing contrast in stops, just aspiration).
Coronal liquids > [n] also needs another vote. This e.g. is prevalent in
codas in Southeast Asia (e.g. the Thai script attests it), and Korean takes
initial borrowed [4] to [n] (or zero before [i j]). There're Pacific
Northwest examples of it as well that I can't remember (I do remember
borrowings like "school" > [skun]).
Oh yeah, the proto-Mayan *[r] went to [j] universally in one subbranch, and
onset [tS] coda [t] in another.
As well, it shouldn't be overlooked that if you're just trying to eliminate
them from the inventory and not change them to something, liquids just get
lost all the time. Esp. when intervocalic (e.g. Portuguese [l]) or in coda
position (e.g. some Englishes' [r\]), but even everywhere (e.g. Egyptian <3>
was once some liquid but is mostly zero by Middle Egyptian).
I'd take a leap and summarise by saying that liquids can basically become
anything within a feature and change of them.
>It somehow seems to me that liquids are among the most stable consonants
Hardly. I'd say things like nasals and the unmarked stop series are far
stabler (in strong positions at least). IMO the historic west Eurasian
languages are a bit unrepresentative this way; if one was raised on East
Asian diachrony, say, I doubt one would have gotten your impression.
Alex
Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: "Best" way to write a complete description of a language
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:02 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 06:11:24 -0400, Roman Rausch wrote:
> > Looking through grammars for some natural
> > languages I studied it felt as though there was some "magical" order in
> > them that made it easier to follow.
>
> Well, going from simple to complicated is probably a good idea in general.
> For most languages, this happens to be nouns -> adjectives -> verbs.
Yes. This is, BTW, also the order in which I usually describe the
morphology of my conlangs. My under construction grammar of Old Albic
uses this order (unles I happen to revise it):
1. Introduction
1.1. History
1.2. Typology
2. Phonology
2.1. Consonants
2.2. Vowels
2.3. Syllables
2.4. Accent
2.5. Linking
3. Morphology
3.1. Morpheme structure
3.2. Word formation
3.3. Nouns
3.4. Adjectives
3.5. Pronouns
3.6. Verbs
4. Syntax
4.1. The noun phrase
4.2. The simple clause
4.3. Complex clauses
5. Sample texts
The lexicon will be in a separate file, also the sound changes from
Proto-Albic to Classical Old Albic, the various Old Albic dialects
and the modern Albic languages.
This is also pretty much the way natlangs tend to be described in
books like Comrie _The World's Major Languages_.
> However, if a conlang has some weird details which make it stand out, I'd
> appreciate them being mentioned near the beginning, while the I'm still
> attentive as a reader.
Yes, that is a good thing, and I do this in my grammar of Old Albic.
As you can see above, the "Introduction" section has a "Typology"
subsection, which explains, besides saying things such as that it
is a richly inflected language, the morphosyntactic alignment of
the language.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (13)
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2b. Re: "Best" way to write a complete description of a language
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:02 pm ((PDT))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Miles Forster <m...@...> wrote:
>
> I have written grammar descriptions of several of my conlangs, but the
> order in which different grammar points were being desribed was usually
> somewhat random. Also, I often felt a bit disoriented about where to put
> what in the description. Looking through grammars for some natural
> languages I studied it felt as though there was some "magical" order in
> them that made it easier to follow. So, I would like to get some opinions
> on how to best structure a complete description of a language, so that
> when someone who knows nothing about the language in advance is able to
> pick the book up, read through it, and understand how the language works.
> I'm looking for more than the obvious "Introduce the most basic things
> before the more complex ones". I am really curious whether you would say
> there is a *best* way to do this and of course what you would consider
> that best way to be. (I am aware that not every language can be described
> in the same order). Looking forward to responses.
>
This is the order I use for my grammar of Senjecas:
1. Introduction
1.1. Alphabet
1.1.1. Vowels and diphthongs
1.1.2. Consonants
1.2. Elision
1.3. Syllabification
1.4. Intonation
1.5. Punctuation
2. Inflection
2.1. Verbs
2.2. Nouns
2.3. Adjectives
2.3.1. Numerals
2.4. Pronouns
2.5. Adverbs
3. Word formation
3.1. Word structure
3.2. Compounding rules
3.3. Denominatives
3.3.1. Nouns from simple nouns
3.3.2. Nouns from simple adjectives
3.3.3. Denominative adjectives from nouns
3.3.4. Denominative adjectives from adjectives
3.4. Deverbatives
3.4.1. Deverbative nouns from verbs
3.4.2. Deverbative adjectives from verbs
3.5. Adjectives from postpositions
4. Syntax
4.1. Word order
4.2. Definitions
4.3. Subject and predicate
4.4. Subject and verb
4.5. Predicate nouns and adjectives
4.6. Apposition
4.7. Adjectives
4.7.1 Agreement of Adjectives
4.7.2. Adjectives as Substantives
4.8. Pronouns
4.8.1. Demonstrative pronouns
4.8.2. Relative pronouns
4.9. Cases
4.9.1.Nominative case
4.9.2. Stative case
4.9.2.1. Stative case with nouns
4.9.2.2. Stative case with verbs
4.9.3. Motive case
4.9.4. Vocative case
4.10. Postpositions
4.11. Verbs
4.11.1. Voice
4.11.2. Tense
4.11.3. Aspect
4.11.4. Mood
4.11.4.1. Subjunctive subordinate clauses
4.11.4.2. Subjunctive independent clauses
4.12. Supine
4.13. Participles
4.13.1. Participles as substantives
4.14. Absolute constructions
4.15. Conjunctions
4.16. Interrogative sentences
Charlie
Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Naming Language for NaNoWriMo: Phonology & Orthography
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" arth...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:37 pm ((PDT))
I needed a naming language for this year's NaNoWriMo. So far I have a
phonology and orthography sketched out, which I'd appreciate feedback
on. This conlang has no name yet. It's *inspired* by Irish and Turkish
features, but it's actually a priori and I'm picking and choosing as
strikes my fancy. :)
You can see some randomly generated words that (mostly) fit the
phonology & orthography described below by visiting
http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/conlang2010/lexicon/ , and I've listed
a couple words without meaning here to show you the flavor:
erçëalé /Et`s`je'le/
çelhísie /tSE'Zisi/
koecölú /kotswV'lu/
àçoecarÅú /'AtSotsA"s`u/ *1
èrçaená /'Et`s`a"na/
Åótonasò /'SotVnA"sV/
*1: Those secondary stress syllables may actually be equally stressed,
not sure yet.
CONSONANTS
m/ m /n/ n /N/ nh
/p/ p
/f/ f /t/ t /t`/ rt /k/ k
/s/ s /S/ Å /s`/ rÅ /x/ h
/r\/ r /j/ y*2
/l/ l /L/ lh*2
/ts/ c /tS/ ç /t`s`/ rc
*2 A merger is progress with /j/ and /L/, which are both moving toward
[Z] (like Argentinian Spanish). Yes, that's [Z] spelled <lh>. :)
VOWELS
CXS Front CXS Back
/i/ í, ie /u/ ú, ue
/I/ ì, i /M/ ù, u *3
/e/ é, ea /o/ ó, oe
/E/ è, e /V/ ò, o
/a/ á, ae *4 /A/ à, a
*3 /u/ and /M/ have merged into [u]
*4 I personally seem incapable of pronouncing [a], so I realized /a/ as [&].
The language has vowel harmony, where suffixes trigger vowel changes
in the stem. The set of front vowels /i I e E a/ map to back vowels /u
M o V A/. When a front vowel (say, unstressed /i/ <ie>) becomes a back
vowel through harmony, it is written as the harmonized vowel + a
diaersis, macron, or breve (depending on what diacritics the original
vowel carried). For example:
í => Å«
ie => üe
ì => Å
i => ü
A fronted vowel is pronounced with a [j] before it; a backed vowel is
pronounced with a [w] before it. This means that you can tell from
both the pronunciation and the spelling when a vowel has been
harmonized. For example:
mel /mEl/ + -in /In/ => melin /mElIn/
mel /mEl/ + -an /An/ => mölan /mwolAn/
mol /mVl/ + -in /In/ => mëlin /mjElIn/
mol /mVl/ + -an /An/ => molan /molAn/
Stressed vowels are written with a grave or acute accent. Unstressed
vowels are written as plain letters or as digraphs.
Retroflex consonants are written with an rC digraph (eg, /t`/ <rt>).
For a /r\/ + retroflex consonant cluster, two <r>s are written (eg,
/rt`/ <rrt>).
I think I want to make some consonant mutations based on morphology or
syntax, but I haven't worked that out yet. For a naming language, most
words are in isolation. :)
--
AA
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Naming Language for NaNoWriMo: Phonology & Orthography
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:27 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 18:35:05 -0700, Arthaey Angosii
<arth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I needed a naming language for this year's NaNoWriMo. So far I
> have a phonology and orthography sketched out, which I'd
> appreciate feedback on. This conlang has no name yet. It's
> *inspired* by Irish and Turkish features, but it's actually a priori
> and I'm picking and choosing as strikes my fancy. :)
Hi Arthaey,
are you *sure* you want to use that phonology and orthography for
NaNo? Looks like lots of opportunities for typos!
--
artigean_aprendista
>
>You can see some randomly generated words that (mostly) fit the
>phonology & orthography described below by visiting
>http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/conlang2010/lexicon/ , and I've
listed
>a couple words without meaning here to show you the flavor:
>
>erçëalé /Et`s`je'le/
>çelhÃsie /tSE'Zisi/
>koecölú /kotswV'lu/
>à çoecarÅú /'AtSotsA"s`u/ *1
>èrçaená /'Et`s`a"na/
>Åótonasò /'SotVnA"sV/
>
>*1: Those secondary stress syllables may actually be equally stressed,
>not sure yet.
>
>
>CONSONANTS
>
>m/ m /n/ n /N/ nh
>/p/ p
>/f/ f /t/ t /t`/ rt /k/ k
> /s/ s /S/ Å /s`/ rÅ /x/ h
> /r\/ r /j/ y*2
> /l/ l /L/ lh*2
>
> /ts/ c /tS/ ç /t`s`/ rc
>
>*2 A merger is progress with /j/ and /L/, which are both moving
toward
>[Z] (like Argentinian Spanish). Yes, that's [Z] spelled <lh>. :)
>
>
>VOWELS
>
>CXS Front CXS Back
>/i/ Ã, ie /u/ ú, ue
>/I/ ì, i /M/ ù, u *3
>/e/ é, ea /o/ ó, oe
>/E/ è, e /V/ ò, o
>/a/ á, ae *4 /A/ à , a
>
>*3 /u/ and /M/ have merged into [u]
>
>*4 I personally seem incapable of pronouncing [a], so I realized /a/ as
[&].
>
>
>The language has vowel harmony, where suffixes trigger vowel
changes
>in the stem. The set of front vowels /i I e E a/ map to back vowels /u
>M o V A/. When a front vowel (say, unstressed /i/ <ie>) becomes a
back
>vowel through harmony, it is written as the harmonized vowel + a
>diaersis, macron, or breve (depending on what diacritics the original
>vowel carried). For example:
>
>Ã => Å«
>ie => üe
>ì => Å
>i => ü
>
>A fronted vowel is pronounced with a [j] before it; a backed vowel is
>pronounced with a [w] before it. This means that you can tell from
>both the pronunciation and the spelling when a vowel has been
>harmonized. For example:
>
>mel /mEl/ + -in /In/ => melin /mElIn/
>mel /mEl/ + -an /An/ => mölan /mwolAn/
>
>mol /mVl/ + -in /In/ => mëlin /mjElIn/
>mol /mVl/ + -an /An/ => molan /molAn/
>
>Stressed vowels are written with a grave or acute accent. Unstressed
>vowels are written as plain letters or as digraphs.
>
>Retroflex consonants are written with an rC digraph (eg, /t`/ <rt>).
>For a /r\/ + retroflex consonant cluster, two <r>s are written (eg,
>/rt`/ <rrt>).
>
>I think I want to make some consonant mutations based on
morphology or
>syntax, but I haven't worked that out yet. For a naming language,
most
>words are in isolation. :)
>
>
>--
>AA
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:12 pm ((PDT))
On 10/28/10 2:28 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
> A couple things:
>
> 1. When I go to sign in to certain private accounts (esp. a brokerage
> acct.) an "instant sign in" box appears, with my user name and the
> user name of another acct. I have access to. I assume if I used it it
> would automatically fill in the user name and pw, which seems very
> unsecure. I have never used it and always close it out, preferring to
> type in the user names and pws myself. But the upshot is that anyone
> using my computer could also sign into those accounts (and this has
> happened, though it didn't really matter in that case). The only
> identification of the thing is "Abine"; when I searched for it in the
> comp. it turned up in 3 folders (where I couldn't find it); it isn't
> listed in any of the programs. I tried to use Add and Delete
> Programs, to uninstall it, but couldn't find Abine in the list of
> programs. Does anyone know what this is, and how to get rid or it??
Take a run through your browser settings. The popular browsers have
options to remember login information. They can be disabled in FF or
IE. Not too sure about Chrome or Safari. Some let you choose them by site.
> 2. Today for the umpteenth time I got "updates" from Firefox, which
> installed automatically. There's nothing there that I want or use (to
> my knowledge). Every time I get these updates, they tell me that I
> MUST update Adobe Flash Player. I go thru the procedure and I guess
> it updates the thing. But do I really need to constantly update Adobe
> Flash Player? What is it anyway, and do I really need it? I assume it
> may have to do with watching videos/UTube stuff etc. which I rarely
> do.
Updates are another option that can be switched off. Actually I wish I
could go back to FF 2.x. I don't like any of the changes in 3.x, and
it's much buggier.
> 3. Good ole Yahoo mail continues to send me List msgs. at random,
> sometimes as old as a week. I gather from other peoples' complaints
> that this may be a Listserv problem, but who knows?
Don't know what to say there. I quit playing their games, and rarely
mess with their groups except for a couple that aren't very active
anyway. Yet another site that has run me off because of their "upgrades".
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:16 pm ((PDT))
On 10/28/10 3:53 PM, Mechthild Czapp wrote:
>> 2. Today for the umpteenth time I got "updates" from Firefox,
>> which installed automatically. There's nothing there that I want or
>> use (to my knowledge). Every time I get these updates, they tell me
>> that I MUST update Adobe Flash Player. I go thru the procedure and
>> I guess it updates the thing. But do I really need to constantly
>> update Adobe Flash Player? What is it anyway, and do I really need
>> it? I assume it may have to do with watching videos/UTube stuff
>> etc. which I rarely do.
>
> Yes, the Flash player is used mainly for 2 things: ads and youtube
> and similar internet videos. It is buggy as windows ME in its early
> beta stages and has various security issues which are constantly
> being fixed. You normally can do without it, however, some IPA sites
> use flash for the sounds.
There are two plugins I consider standard downloads whenever I install
FF. AdBlock Plus (ABP) and Flash Block. Both give you the option of
what to block and what to show. They take a bit of work but once you
get them tuned right they are worth it. ISTR seeing them available for
Chrome as well.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" 0zu...@gmx.de
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:57 am ((PDT))
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:14:24 -0400
> Von: "<deinx nxtxr>" <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org>
> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Betreff: Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
> On 10/28/10 3:53 PM, Mechthild Czapp wrote:
>
> >> 2. Today for the umpteenth time I got "updates" from Firefox,
> >> which installed automatically. There's nothing there that I want or
> >> use (to my knowledge). Every time I get these updates, they tell me
> >> that I MUST update Adobe Flash Player. I go thru the procedure and
> >> I guess it updates the thing. But do I really need to constantly
> >> update Adobe Flash Player? What is it anyway, and do I really need
> >> it? I assume it may have to do with watching videos/UTube stuff
> >> etc. which I rarely do.
> >
> > Yes, the Flash player is used mainly for 2 things: ads and youtube
> > and similar internet videos. It is buggy as windows ME in its early
> > beta stages and has various security issues which are constantly
> > being fixed. You normally can do without it, however, some IPA sites
> > use flash for the sounds.
>
> There are two plugins I consider standard downloads whenever I install
> FF. AdBlock Plus (ABP) and Flash Block. Both give you the option of
> what to block and what to show. They take a bit of work but once you
> get them tuned right they are worth it. ISTR seeing them available for
> Chrome as well.
I second the recommendation of AdBlock. It's the one tool not only against ads
but against bad webdesign of all kinds (I block the CSS files of various sites
because the webdesign makes me contemplate the usual 2 questions*). However,
since adblock can also block Flash-objects, FlashBlock is probably not required.
*"What are these people SMOKINGâ½" and "Where can I get some of that?"
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief!
Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: OT (and TECH): Annoyances
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:53 am ((PDT))
On 10/31/10 8:55 AM, Mechthild Czapp wrote:
>> There are two plugins I consider standard downloads whenever I
>> install FF. AdBlock Plus (ABP) and Flash Block. Both give you the
>> option of what to block and what to show. They take a bit of work
>> but once you get them tuned right they are worth it. ISTR seeing
>> them available for Chrome as well.
>
> I second the recommendation of AdBlock. It's the one tool not only
> against ads but against bad webdesign of all kinds (I block the CSS
> files of various sites because the webdesign makes me contemplate the
> usual 2 questions*). However, since adblock can also block
> Flash-objects, FlashBlock is probably not required.
ABP does block flash, but by default it will display them and doesn't
always work, so there's still all that irritating animation showing
until you block it. Flashblock will show a small button in place of the
flash. You'll actually have to click to run the flash, or enable flash
for the site before it runs. Personally, I'd like to see Flash
disappear into computing history. There's nothing more distracting than
some animated garbage running alongside a text that I'm trying to read.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Conlang Graffiti?
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:19 pm ((PDT))
On 10/26/10 10:25 AM, Wm Annis wrote:
> In my old neighborhood in Madison there was one tagger who
> used something that reminded me of the Newcomer writing
> system from the old "Alien Nation" TV series.
I always liked that scripts. That is, if there really was a script
there. Sometimes I think it was just a random scribbling.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Conlang Graffiti?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:27 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:17:49 -0400, <deinx nxtxr> wrote:
> On 10/26/10 10:25 AM, Wm Annis wrote:
>
> > In my old neighborhood in Madison there was one tagger who
> > used something that reminded me of the Newcomer writing
> > system from the old "Alien Nation" TV series.
>
> I always liked that scripts. That is, if there really was a script
> there. Sometimes I think it was just a random scribbling.
AFAIK, it is a cipher of the Latin alphabet, and the texts just
English. Also, it strikes me as very hard to read. Double suction.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:26 pm ((PDT))
In the spirit of NaNoWriMo I thought it might be fun to start a new
conlang from scratch on Nov. 1 with the goal of completing it by Nov.
30. That, of course, raises the question: What does it mean to
"complete" the conlang. In order to have an unambiguous benchmark I
thought I would pick some piece of public domain fiction to translate
into the new conlang. I have selected a handful of short stories in
the neighborhood of 1500 to 2000 words and I plan to read them
tomorrow and decide which one would make the best challenge text for
me to translate.
Then starting on the morning of Nov. 1 with a tabula rasa, and not
using anything from any of my previous conlangs, I'm going to start
translating the selected short story into a conlang that doesn't yet
exist. And by the time I complete the translation, hopefully by Nov.
30, a fairly complete and functional conlang should have some how come
into existence.
The working translation will probably be revised as the translation
proceeds, but I plan to keep a day-by-day record on my web page of the
translation as it exists on each day. It should be fun to see how many
of the usual conlanging issues I can iron out in a hurry so that I can
get on with the practical work of translation. It should also be
interesting to see how the conlang changes and evolves from day to day
as alterations are introduced to handle the next days translation
challenges.
Like NaNoWriMo, the goal is to COMPLETE something usable and fully
functional in 30 days.
I would think that 1500 to 2000 words should be do-able in 30 days.
that's only between 50 and 66 words a day. Here's 55 words from "Call
of the Wild" as an example of the magnitude of each day's task:
"No longer was this fact borne in upon him in some subtle, mysterious
way. The birds talked of it, the squirrels chattered about it, the
very breeze whispered of it. Several times he stopped and drew in the
fresh morning air in great sniffs, reading a message which made him
leap on with greater speed."
If the vocabulary and grammar were known such a translation might only
take a few minutes. If some new principle of grammar needs to be
discovered, or a couple of new words need to be invented, it might
take as much as an hour or so to do the translation. At any rate, that
much translation seems do-able in each 24-hour period.
So that's my goal. I'll post a link to my day-by-day progress
"journal" on Nov. 1 after I have picked which short story or novel
chapter to use.
wish me luck! :)
--gary
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:17 am ((PDT))
That sounds like a very interesting plan. I'll be waiting to read your journal
updates, and the final product!
Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone
On 31 Oct 2010, at 06:24, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the spirit of NaNoWriMo I thought it might be fun to start a new
> conlang from scratch on Nov. 1 with the goal of completing it by Nov.
> 30. That, of course, raises the question: What does it mean to
> "complete" the conlang. In order to have an unambiguous benchmark I
> thought I would pick some piece of public domain fiction to translate
> into the new conlang. I have selected a handful of short stories in
> the neighborhood of 1500 to 2000 words and I plan to read them
> tomorrow and decide which one would make the best challenge text for
> me to translate.
>
> Then starting on the morning of Nov. 1 with a tabula rasa, and not
> using anything from any of my previous conlangs, I'm going to start
> translating the selected short story into a conlang that doesn't yet
> exist. And by the time I complete the translation, hopefully by Nov.
> 30, a fairly complete and functional conlang should have some how come
> into existence.
>
> The working translation will probably be revised as the translation
> proceeds, but I plan to keep a day-by-day record on my web page of the
> translation as it exists on each day. It should be fun to see how many
> of the usual conlanging issues I can iron out in a hurry so that I can
> get on with the practical work of translation. It should also be
> interesting to see how the conlang changes and evolves from day to day
> as alterations are introduced to handle the next days translation
> challenges.
>
> Like NaNoWriMo, the goal is to COMPLETE something usable and fully
> functional in 30 days.
>
> I would think that 1500 to 2000 words should be do-able in 30 days.
> that's only between 50 and 66 words a day. Here's 55 words from "Call
> of the Wild" as an example of the magnitude of each day's task:
>
> "No longer was this fact borne in upon him in some subtle, mysterious
> way. The birds talked of it, the squirrels chattered about it, the
> very breeze whispered of it. Several times he stopped and drew in the
> fresh morning air in great sniffs, reading a message which made him
> leap on with greater speed."
>
> If the vocabulary and grammar were known such a translation might only
> take a few minutes. If some new principle of grammar needs to be
> discovered, or a couple of new words need to be invented, it might
> take as much as an hour or so to do the translation. At any rate, that
> much translation seems do-able in each 24-hour period.
>
> So that's my goal. I'll post a link to my day-by-day progress
> "journal" on Nov. 1 after I have picked which short story or novel
> chapter to use.
>
> wish me luck! :)
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:23 am ((PDT))
Yeah, that's a really fun project to do!
I did that in August, and created my first major conlang, Llárriésh. It was
a month long project, and a huge learning process. You can read all about it
on the blog I documented it on, www.burntfen.net/conlang, or on my LCS site
which has more information on it, I think: http://llama.conlang.org
Good luck! Make sure to blog about it, so we can all follow on the blogroll.
:)
Richard
On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Eugene Oh <un.do...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That sounds like a very interesting plan. I'll be waiting to read your
> journal updates, and the final product!
>
> Good luck.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 31 Oct 2010, at 06:24, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In the spirit of NaNoWriMo I thought it might be fun to start a new
> > conlang from scratch on Nov. 1 with the goal of completing it by Nov.
> > 30. That, of course, raises the question: What does it mean to
> > "complete" the conlang. In order to have an unambiguous benchmark I
> > thought I would pick some piece of public domain fiction to translate
> > into the new conlang. I have selected a handful of short stories in
> > the neighborhood of 1500 to 2000 words and I plan to read them
> > tomorrow and decide which one would make the best challenge text for
> > me to translate.
> >
> > Then starting on the morning of Nov. 1 with a tabula rasa, and not
> > using anything from any of my previous conlangs, I'm going to start
> > translating the selected short story into a conlang that doesn't yet
> > exist. And by the time I complete the translation, hopefully by Nov.
> > 30, a fairly complete and functional conlang should have some how come
> > into existence.
> >
> > The working translation will probably be revised as the translation
> > proceeds, but I plan to keep a day-by-day record on my web page of the
> > translation as it exists on each day. It should be fun to see how many
> > of the usual conlanging issues I can iron out in a hurry so that I can
> > get on with the practical work of translation. It should also be
> > interesting to see how the conlang changes and evolves from day to day
> > as alterations are introduced to handle the next days translation
> > challenges.
> >
> > Like NaNoWriMo, the goal is to COMPLETE something usable and fully
> > functional in 30 days.
> >
> > I would think that 1500 to 2000 words should be do-able in 30 days.
> > that's only between 50 and 66 words a day. Here's 55 words from "Call
> > of the Wild" as an example of the magnitude of each day's task:
> >
> > "No longer was this fact borne in upon him in some subtle, mysterious
> > way. The birds talked of it, the squirrels chattered about it, the
> > very breeze whispered of it. Several times he stopped and drew in the
> > fresh morning air in great sniffs, reading a message which made him
> > leap on with greater speed."
> >
> > If the vocabulary and grammar were known such a translation might only
> > take a few minutes. If some new principle of grammar needs to be
> > discovered, or a couple of new words need to be invented, it might
> > take as much as an hour or so to do the translation. At any rate, that
> > much translation seems do-able in each 24-hour period.
> >
> > So that's my goal. I'll post a link to my day-by-day progress
> > "journal" on Nov. 1 after I have picked which short story or novel
> > chapter to use.
> >
> > wish me luck! :)
> >
> > --gary
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6d. Re: Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:42 am ((PDT))
On 10/31/10 2:24 AM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> ... question: What does it mean to "complete" the conlang.
Not really and easy question to answer given the dynamics of language
but I'd say once the language reaches a level where it is capable of
coming to life it's "complete" enough.
> The working translation will probably be revised as the translation
> proceeds, but I plan to keep a day-by-day record on my web page of the
> translation as it exists on each day. It should be fun to see how many
> of the usual conlanging issues I can iron out in a hurry so that I can
> get on with the practical work of translation. It should also be
> interesting to see how the conlang changes and evolves from day to day
> as alterations are introduced to handle the next days translation
> challenges.
>
> Like NaNoWriMo, the goal is to COMPLETE something usable and fully
> functional in 30 days.
>
> I would think that 1500 to 2000 words should be do-able in 30 days.
> that's only between 50 and 66 words a day. Here's 55 words from "Call
> of the Wild" as an example of the magnitude of each day's task:
I don't see why you can't create a conlang in 30 days. It would be
especially easy if the lexicon was either a recoding of something a
posteriori, or a computer generated a priori one.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6e. 30 min. auxlang? (< Just For Fun: A 30-Day Conlang)
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:44 am ((PDT))
This sort of reminds me of an auxlang I found once where a small group
made an auxlang in 30 minutes. This was many years ago, but I'd like to
find the site again.
Messages in this topic (5)
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