There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: the ursprachist ursprach
1.2. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Patrick Dunn
1.3. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: the ursprachist ursprach
1.4. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1.5. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: the ursprachist ursprach
1.6. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Samuel Stutter
1.7. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Parker Glynn-Adey
1.8. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: the ursprachist ursprach
1.9. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Lars Finsen
1.10. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Patrick Dunn
1.11. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: the ursprachist ursprach
1.12. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1.13. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Lars Finsen
1.14. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Lars Finsen
1.15. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: the ursprachist ursprach
1.16. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
From: Lars Finsen
2a. Re: 30-Day Conlang
From: Gary Shannon
3a. 30-Day conlang: Day Five
From: Gary Shannon
3b. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
From: Larry Sulky
3c. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
From: Patrick Dunn
3d. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
From: Gary Shannon
3e. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
From: Parker Glynn-Adey
3f. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
From: Gary Shannon
4a. boredom
From: Patrick Dunn
4b. Re: boredom
From: the ursprachist ursprach
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 9:25 am ((PDT))
I guess you didn't read Krakowski.
He's not saying
"There are 22 hebrew letters and 22 aminoacids "
he's saying instead
" 3 "Mother" letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin
7 "Double" letters: Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau
12 "Simple" letters: He, Vau, Zain, Cheth, Teth, Yod, Lamed, Nun,Samekh,
Ayin, Tzaddi, Qoph
3 Punctuation groups (2 stop groups, 1 start group [Methionine])
7 Hydrophobic Amino Acids
12 Hydrophilic Amino Acids"
I guess that's too much *coincidance* for Shannon to explain.
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:15:58 +0100, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no>
> wrote:
>
> >Anyhow I do think it's interesting that the number of amino acids
> >involved in standard natural protein synthesis is similar to the
> >number of letters in many of the commonest alphabets. This says
> >something profound about the nature of communication dynamics, in my
> >opinion.
>
> I disagree. Shannon's theorem says that given a string over one alphabet
> you can recode it into any other alphabet with arbitrarily close to the
> optimum efficiency, given by the ratio of the channel rates; there really
> are no preferred alphabet sizes. To my eye it can only be coincidence that
> the number of amino acids bopping around early cells is about the size of a
> phoneme inventory.
>
> If instead, for instance, it were the case that the presence of lots of
> pairs of potential contrasts in a phonology turned out to be
> anticorrelated,
> so that phonologies really had a preferred size more strongly than just is
> entailed by how common each feature is, thàt sort of thing I'd deem to have
> something interesting to say, about human perception and the language
> faculty if not about communication tout ensemble. Still falls short of
> profound, to me.
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (36)
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1.2. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 10:20 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:23 AM, the ursprachist ursprach <
theursprach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess you didn't read Krakowski.
>
> He's not saying
>
> "There are 22 hebrew letters and 22 aminoacids "
>
> he's saying instead
>
> " 3 "Mother" letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin
> 7 "Double" letters: Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau
> 12 "Simple" letters: He, Vau, Zain, Cheth, Teth, Yod, Lamed, Nun,Samekh,
> Ayin, Tzaddi, Qoph
>
> 3 Punctuation groups (2 stop groups, 1 start group [Methionine])
> 7 Hydrophobic Amino Acids
> 12 Hydrophilic Amino Acids"
>
>
So? Why should I care how amino acids can be arbitrarily matched up with
Hebrew letters? That correspondence doesn't much illuminate biology, and I
fail to see how it sheds any light on the Cabala.
And, of course, it has zero to do with conlanging at all. It's just
copypasta as far as I can tell.
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 11:18 am ((PDT))
Yes, you fail!
I was thinking about explaining it for you, but why cast perils before our
swains? Better leave unsung some sayings, than to sing them out of season.
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:23 AM, the ursprachist ursprach <
> theursprach...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I guess you didn't read Krakowski.
> >
> > He's not saying
> >
> > "There are 22 hebrew letters and 22 aminoacids "
> >
> > he's saying instead
> >
> > " 3 "Mother" letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin
> > 7 "Double" letters: Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau
> > 12 "Simple" letters: He, Vau, Zain, Cheth, Teth, Yod, Lamed, Nun,Samekh,
> > Ayin, Tzaddi, Qoph
> >
> > 3 Punctuation groups (2 stop groups, 1 start group [Methionine])
> > 7 Hydrophobic Amino Acids
> > 12 Hydrophilic Amino Acids"
> >
> >
> So? Why should I care how amino acids can be arbitrarily matched up with
> Hebrew letters? That correspondence doesn't much illuminate biology, and
> I
> fail to see how it sheds any light on the Cabala.
>
> And, of course, it has zero to do with conlanging at all. It's just
> copypasta as far as I can tell.
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 11:54 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:15:19 -0200, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
> Yes, you fail!
> I was thinking about explaining it for you, but why cast perils before our
> swains? Better leave unsung some sayings, than to sing them out of season.
FAIL.
It's "pearls before swine".
But we are obviously dealing with an esoteric troll (_Troglodytus
occultus_) here; it is quite pointless to feed it.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 12:04 pm ((PDT))
"Casting her *perils before our swains* from Fonte-in-Monte to Tidingtown
and from Tidingtown tilhavet. Linking one and knocking the next, tapting a
flank and..." - Finnegans Wake
( Fine, now I need to *explain* my cultural references. This thread is going
places! )
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:15:19 -0200, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
>
> > Yes, you fail!
> > I was thinking about explaining it for you, but why cast perils before
> our
> > swains? Better leave unsung some sayings, than to sing them out of
> season.
>
> FAIL.
>
> It's "pearls before swine".
>
> But we are obviously dealing with an esoteric troll (_Troglodytus
> occultus_) here; it is quite pointless to feed it.
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.6. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 12:17 pm ((PDT))
I'm sure you're a lovely guy, ursprachist ursprach, but your first
post appears to creating a little tension. Is there any way we can cut
this thread before someone gets upset? Not least me, because I don't
have topic filtering! (And I'll kick anybody's ass at Tarot reading :D )
On 5 Nov 2010, at 19:03, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
> "Casting her *perils before our swains* from Fonte-in-Monte to
> Tidingtown
> and from Tidingtown tilhavet. Linking one and knocking the next,
> tapting a
> flank and..." - Finnegans Wake
>
> ( Fine, now I need to *explain* my cultural references. This thread
> is going
> places! )
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier
> <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>wrote:
>
>> Hallo!
>>
>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:15:19 -0200, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, you fail!
>>> I was thinking about explaining it for you, but why cast perils
>>> before
>> our
>>> swains? Better leave unsung some sayings, than to sing them out of
>> season.
>>
>> FAIL.
>>
>> It's "pearls before swine".
>>
>> But we are obviously dealing with an esoteric troll (_Troglodytus
>> occultus_) here; it is quite pointless to feed it.
>>
>> --
>> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.7. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Parker Glynn-Adey" parkerglynna...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 1:04 pm ((PDT))
On 5 November 2010 15:15, Samuel Stutter <
sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
> I'm sure you're a lovely guy, ursprachist ursprach, but your first post
> appears to creating a little tension. Is there any way we can cut this
> thread before someone gets upset? Not least me, because I don't have topic
> filtering! (And I'll kick anybody's ass at Tarot reading :D )
I completely agree with this suggestion.
It's interesting, well researched, stuff but not for this list.
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.8. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 1:19 pm ((PDT))
No matter, I'll keep posting my stuff elsewhere. Let's cut this off, as
people without mojo or hilaritas are getting very upset. What can I do? It's
the nature of the game; I'm Air-Mercurius and I don't know where on Earth I
would be without all you funny grounded people. Whoever wants to keep this
up, just follow my blog and mail me.
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Samuel Stutter <
sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
> I'm sure you're a lovely guy, ursprachist ursprach, but your first post
> appears to creating a little tension. Is there any way we can cut this
> thread before someone gets upset? Not least me, because I don't have topic
> filtering! (And I'll kick anybody's ass at Tarot reading :D )
>
>
> On 5 Nov 2010, at 19:03, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
>
> "Casting her *perils before our swains* from Fonte-in-Monte to Tidingtown
>> and from Tidingtown tilhavet. Linking one and knocking the next, tapting a
>> flank and..." - Finnegans Wake
>>
>> ( Fine, now I need to *explain* my cultural references. This thread is
>> going
>> places! )
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de
>> >wrote:
>>
>> Hallo!
>>>
>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:15:19 -0200, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, you fail!
>>>> I was thinking about explaining it for you, but why cast perils before
>>>>
>>> our
>>>
>>>> swains? Better leave unsung some sayings, than to sing them out of
>>>>
>>> season.
>>>
>>> FAIL.
>>>
>>> It's "pearls before swine".
>>>
>>> But we are obviously dealing with an esoteric troll (_Troglodytus
>>> occultus_) here; it is quite pointless to feed it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>>> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>>>
>>>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.9. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 1:27 pm ((PDT))
Den 5. nov. 2010 kl. 17.23 skreiv the ursprachist ursprach:
> I guess you didn't read Krakowski.
>
> He's not saying
>
> "There are 22 hebrew letters and 22 aminoacids "
>
> he's saying instead
>
> " 3 "Mother" letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin
> 7 "Double" letters: Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau
> 12 "Simple" letters: He, Vau, Zain, Cheth, Teth, Yod, Lamed,
> Nun,Samekh,
> Ayin, Tzaddi, Qoph
>
> 3 Punctuation groups (2 stop groups, 1 start group [Methionine])
> 7 Hydrophobic Amino Acids
> 12 Hydrophilic Amino Acids"
>
> I guess that's too much *coincidance* for Shannon to explain.
The number of amino acides used in standard natural protein synthesis
aren't 19, but 20. One of them, glycine, doesn't have a side chain. 6
of them, alanine, valine, leucine, isoleucine, proline and
phenylalanine have wholly hydrophobic side chains. Of the others,
methionine, tryptophan, tyrosine and cysteine are relatively
hydrophobic, especially methionine. The others, serine, threonine,
asparagine, glutamine, aspartatic acid, glutamic acid, lysine,
arginine and histidine, are hydrophilic.
All mino acids are hydrophilic per se, it is the side chains that can
be divided in hydrophobic and hydrophilic.
There are 64 genetic codes, 61 of which code for these 20 amino
acids, more or less redundantly. The remaining 3 are stop codes. One
of the 61 (AUG) code both for the amino acid methionine and also
functions as a start code. The three stop codes belong to the genetic
codes and there is no reason to add them to the amino acids.
Now I wonder if this will wake you up from your cabbalistic dream or
not. In my experience facts are not sufficient to achieve such things.
Greetings,
LEF
Messages in this topic (36)
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1.10. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 2:50 pm ((PDT))
Sounds like a plan. We're idiots; you're brilliant.
Moving on . . .
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:24 PM, the ursprachist ursprach <
theursprach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> नमसà¥à¤¤à¥!
>
> "wake you up from your cabbalistic dream"? "In my experience", you haven't
> read enough!
> Seriously people, let's cut this off. This is getting annoying for me ( and
> most of us ) already. Admitting you're not into this instead of trying to
> prove me I'm nuts will save ourselves a lot of time.
>
> John Keys
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no>
> wrote:
>
> > Den 5. nov. 2010 kl. 17.23 skreiv the ursprachist ursprach:
> >
> >
> > I guess you didn't read Krakowski.
> >>
> >> He's not saying
> >>
> >> "There are 22 hebrew letters and 22 aminoacids "
> >>
> >> he's saying instead
> >>
> >> " 3 "Mother" letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin
> >> 7 "Double" letters: Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau
> >> 12 "Simple" letters: He, Vau, Zain, Cheth, Teth, Yod, Lamed, Nun,Samekh,
> >> Ayin, Tzaddi, Qoph
> >>
> >> 3 Punctuation groups (2 stop groups, 1 start group [Methionine])
> >> 7 Hydrophobic Amino Acids
> >> 12 Hydrophilic Amino Acids"
> >>
> >> I guess that's too much *coincidance* for Shannon to explain.
> >>
> >
> > The number of amino acides used in standard natural protein synthesis
> > aren't 19, but 20. One of them, glycine, doesn't have a side chain. 6 of
> > them, alanine, valine, leucine, isoleucine, proline and phenylalanine
> have
> > wholly hydrophobic side chains. Of the others, methionine, tryptophan,
> > tyrosine and cysteine are relatively hydrophobic, especially methionine.
> The
> > others, serine, threonine, asparagine, glutamine, aspartatic acid,
> glutamic
> > acid, lysine, arginine and histidine, are hydrophilic.
> >
> > All mino acids are hydrophilic per se, it is the side chains that can be
> > divided in hydrophobic and hydrophilic.
> >
> > There are 64 genetic codes, 61 of which code for these 20 amino acids,
> more
> > or less redundantly. The remaining 3 are stop codes. One of the 61 (AUG)
> > code both for the amino acid methionine and also functions as a start
> code.
> > The three stop codes belong to the genetic codes and there is no reason
> to
> > add them to the amino acids.
> >
> > Now I wonder if this will wake you up from your cabbalistic dream or not.
> > In my experience facts are not sufficient to achieve such things.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > LEF
> >
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.11. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 3:00 pm ((PDT))
नमसà¥à¤¤à¥!
"wake you up from your cabbalistic dream"? "In my experience", you haven't
read enough!
Seriously people, let's cut this off. This is getting annoying for me ( and
most of us ) already. Admitting you're not into this instead of trying to
prove me I'm nuts will save ourselves a lot of time.
John Keys
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
> Den 5. nov. 2010 kl. 17.23 skreiv the ursprachist ursprach:
>
>
> I guess you didn't read Krakowski.
>>
>> He's not saying
>>
>> "There are 22 hebrew letters and 22 aminoacids "
>>
>> he's saying instead
>>
>> " 3 "Mother" letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin
>> 7 "Double" letters: Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau
>> 12 "Simple" letters: He, Vau, Zain, Cheth, Teth, Yod, Lamed, Nun,Samekh,
>> Ayin, Tzaddi, Qoph
>>
>> 3 Punctuation groups (2 stop groups, 1 start group [Methionine])
>> 7 Hydrophobic Amino Acids
>> 12 Hydrophilic Amino Acids"
>>
>> I guess that's too much *coincidance* for Shannon to explain.
>>
>
> The number of amino acides used in standard natural protein synthesis
> aren't 19, but 20. One of them, glycine, doesn't have a side chain. 6 of
> them, alanine, valine, leucine, isoleucine, proline and phenylalanine have
> wholly hydrophobic side chains. Of the others, methionine, tryptophan,
> tyrosine and cysteine are relatively hydrophobic, especially methionine. The
> others, serine, threonine, asparagine, glutamine, aspartatic acid, glutamic
> acid, lysine, arginine and histidine, are hydrophilic.
>
> All mino acids are hydrophilic per se, it is the side chains that can be
> divided in hydrophobic and hydrophilic.
>
> There are 64 genetic codes, 61 of which code for these 20 amino acids, more
> or less redundantly. The remaining 3 are stop codes. One of the 61 (AUG)
> code both for the amino acid methionine and also functions as a start code.
> The three stop codes belong to the genetic codes and there is no reason to
> add them to the amino acids.
>
> Now I wonder if this will wake you up from your cabbalistic dream or not.
> In my experience facts are not sufficient to achieve such things.
>
> Greetings,
> LEF
>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.12. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 3:07 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 19:24:08 -0200, the ursprachist ursprach wrote:
> नमसà¥à¤¤à¥!
>
> "wake you up from your cabbalistic dream"? "In my experience", you haven't
> read enough!
> Seriously people, let's cut this off. This is getting annoying for me ( and
> most of us ) already. Admitting you're not into this instead of trying to
> prove me I'm nuts will save ourselves a lot of time.
>
> John Keys
Indeed. This is pointless. We won't ever persuade you; you won't
ever persuade us. This is trench warfare; we don't need that, so
let's end that matter and put it to rest.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.13. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 4:08 pm ((PDT))
Den 5. nov. 2010 kl. 22.24 skreiv the ursprachist ursprach:
> Seriously people, let's cut this off. This is getting annoying for
> me ( and most of us ) already. Admitting you're not into this
> instead of trying to prove me I'm nuts will save ourselves a lot of
> time.
Yes, that's what I reckoned. Could you just satisfy my curiosity as
to the source of your information about those amino acids and their
numbers?
Sincerely,
LEF
Messages in this topic (36)
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1.14. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 7:00 pm ((PDT))
Den 5. nov. 2010 kl. 01.06 skreiv Alex Fink:
> I disagree. Shannon's theorem says that given a string over one
> alphabet you can recode it into any other alphabet with arbitrarily
> close to the optimum efficiency, given by the ratio of the channel
> rates; there really are no preferred alphabet sizes. To my eye it
> can only be coincidence that the number of amino acids bopping
> around early cells is about the size of a phoneme inventory.
Sorry, if I had been quite serious with my comment, I would have
formulated it somewhat differently. Still I'd like to explore it a
little.
You may be right, considering that a computer can code all its
information with only 2 letters, and that the genetic code consists
of only 4.
I'm not sure if there really were any amino acids bopping around
early cells. In my opinion, proteins came in relatively late in the
evolution of life. The earliest mechanics of life probably utilised
naturally occurring molecules, and proteins came in later to replace
them. There are still many non-proteins that have important functions
in the biological machinery, for example the steroids.
In the early stages of the evolution of protein synthesis, the
process probably went through an experimental phase before settling
on the final set of 20 building blocks. The triplet codons we use
today can code for more than 60 alternatives, and if you use
quadruplets instead of triplets, you get more than 250. The first
working systems may have had many more than 20, and it's not
impossible either that it could have been less than 20 at some stage,
and that one or more were then added.
Why did it settle for 20? Considering the virtually infinite variety
of functions that a protein can perform it's amazing that the system
can get by with only 20. There is a handful of extra amino acids that
exist in nature, but they are not part of the standard protein
synthesis process, they are formed in subsequent modification stages.
Still, this implies that adding more building blocks has the
potential to give you more versatile products. The reason why we
ended up with 20 is that simplification has some advantages, too, in
terms of energy efficiency, reproducibility and availability of raw
materials. Before protein synthesis, early life needed different
machinery to produce each different biomolecule, and the ability to
produce several with the same machinery is a tremendous advantage.
Imagine a modern factory organised according to the same principle...
Now, in what way is this parallel to language? Considering the
absolutely infinite variety of ideas we can communicate it is amazing
that the system can get by with only a 20-odd letters or phonemes. Of
course, you may add a handful or two of extra characters for special
purposes, but the principle remains the same. Since it is possible to
express everything with just two letters or numbers, why did we end
up with a 20-odd phonemes or characters, or a little more? Evidently,
efficiency plays a role here, too, as we can plainly see from any
printout of binary information. In principle it is possible to
express everything with the phoneme inventory of a cat or a dog, but
we have evolved bigger ones, and we usually don't evolve things
without a reason. If evolution continues, will we evolve even bigger
inventories, and will this make us able to express ourselves more
precisely and communicate more per unit time than we do today?
Perhaps, but since we started evolving words, any more phonemic
evolution is unlikely to confer any significant advantage, I think.
Any language existing today uses only a very limited selection of the
phonemes that a human actually can produce.
Availibility of raw products is a severely limiting factor in protein
synthesis. In language it is less so, since humans don't tend to use
their phonetic capability to nearly a full extent in speech. But
protein synthesis gets by with its choice of 20 amino acids.
Evolution would have extended the number if not. Both language and
protein synthesis are fully symbolic systems, with meanings fully
dependant on arbitrary definitions, and both probably evolved from
system that weren't fully symbolic. Both use a single piece of
machinery to make a virtually infinite variety of products from a
small number of building blocks. In both cases the actual number of
building blocks have ended up roughly the same, and in both cases due
to a compromise between advantages and disadvantages conferred by
smaller and bigger numbers, which in both cases has evolved through a
long, slow process.
Still I don't feel that I have proven any link between the number of
amino acids in protein synthesis and the number of phonemes in
speech. It may be just a coincidence that they ended up roughly the
same. Maybe I will tomorrow when I'm less tired than now. Have to get
some sleep. Goodnight.
LEF
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.15. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Nov 6, 2010 3:44 am ((PDT))
Here. <http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/occultgeneticcode/>
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
> Den 5. nov. 2010 kl. 22.24 skreiv the ursprachist ursprach:
>
>
> Seriously people, let's cut this off. This is getting annoying for me (
>> and most of us ) already. Admitting you're not into this instead of trying
>> to prove me I'm nuts will save ourselves a lot of time.
>>
>
> Yes, that's what I reckoned. Could you just satisfy my curiosity as to the
> source of your information about those amino acids and their numbers?
>
> Sincerely,
> LEF
>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
1.16. Re: I Ching + finnegans wake + McLuhan
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Sat Nov 6, 2010 6:54 am ((PDT))
Den 6. nov. 2010 kl. 11.42 skreiv the ursprachist ursprach:
> Here. <http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/occultgeneticcode/>
Thanks. We should not discuss this at any length here and expect not
to be thrown out of the list, but let me only mention that the boxed
item about 'junk' DNA is reasonably sound, while you should be a
little wary about the comments outside the box. He claims to have
assigned I Ching numbers to genetic codes based on similarities in
form and function between their respective domains of knowledge,
without giving any details, which is suspicious enough. The rest of
the assignments are based on the I Ching. In order to fit the 22
Hebrew letters onto the 20 amino acids, he has to fit the 2 surplus
ones onto the three stop codes, which is awkward enough to suggest at
least to me that he's on the wrong track. A couple of other obvious
mistakes: tryptophan has a slightly polar side chain, but is
classified here as non-polar, while glycine, which does not have a
side chain, is classified as polar.
I really like the music on the Dushara site, btw, which looks like a
fun site to explore. There are fouler hobbies in this world. At least
you people aren't in the habit of blowing each other up (I hope).
LEF
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: 30-Day Conlang
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 9:50 am ((PDT))
You're correct. One of what will probably be MANY mistakes I make
along the way. :) That's what happens when you're in a hurry.
I kind of like txytavo too. And there's a new word: txpunu with the
same initial ʧ. notice how I forgot the 'Y' in that one. I'm thinking
perhaps the "y" is archaic already and may be on its way out.
--gary
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Miles Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:
> You write "Consonant cluster "KH" is a voiceless uvular fricative
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative> (?), and "YH" is a
> voiceless palatal fricative
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_fricative> (ç). For example:
> yhaku khanu (hatchet people) would be rendered ??ku ç?nu in IPA"
>
> Shouldn't it be the other way round? i.e. yhaku khanu = [ç?ku ??nu] ?
>
> Btw, I like the consonant cluster [?t] in txytavo. That word is kinda
> awesome.
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. 30-Day conlang: Day Five
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 2:17 pm ((PDT))
The translation is getting easier as I become more familiar with the
peculiar sentence structure of conlang-X.
The language started out to have pronoun based on animate vs.
inanimate with no gender distinctions. But some ambiguous sentences
have lead to the discovery of a feminine pronoun.
Phonology continues to develop, and that interesting unvoiced vowel
written "y" is showing up in a few more words: netxyko (nÉʧko), for
example.
I've translated 564 words of original English text out of 2198, or 26
percent of the text in 17% of the allocated time, so I am ahead of
schedule, which is good because I will need time at the end of the
30-day period to go back and edit and correct the earlier
translations.
As always, the latest translations and interlinears are at
http://fiziwig.com/conlang/thirty_day.html
--gary
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 2:49 pm ((PDT))
Gary, your pretty interlinears have gone blah on days 4 and 5.
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The translation is getting easier as I become more familiar with the
> peculiar sentence structure of conlang-X.
>
> The language started out to have pronoun based on animate vs.
> inanimate with no gender distinctions. But some ambiguous sentences
> have lead to the discovery of a feminine pronoun.
>
> Phonology continues to develop, and that interesting unvoiced vowel
> written "y" is showing up in a few more words: netxyko (nÉʧko), for
> example.
>
> I've translated 564 words of original English text out of 2198, or 26
> percent of the text in 17% of the allocated time, so I am ahead of
> schedule, which is good because I will need time at the end of the
> 30-day period to go back and edit and correct the earlier
> translations.
>
> As always, the latest translations and interlinears are at
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/thirty_day.html
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 2:57 pm ((PDT))
This is a pretty cool project. I'm following it with interest.
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Larry Sulky <larrysu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gary, your pretty interlinears have gone blah on days 4 and 5.
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The translation is getting easier as I become more familiar with the
> > peculiar sentence structure of conlang-X.
> >
> > The language started out to have pronoun based on animate vs.
> > inanimate with no gender distinctions. But some ambiguous sentences
> > have lead to the discovery of a feminine pronoun.
> >
> > Phonology continues to develop, and that interesting unvoiced vowel
> > written "y" is showing up in a few more words: netxyko (nÉʧko), for
> > example.
> >
> > I've translated 564 words of original English text out of 2198, or 26
> > percent of the text in 17% of the allocated time, so I am ahead of
> > schedule, which is good because I will need time at the end of the
> > 30-day period to go back and edit and correct the earlier
> > translations.
> >
> > As always, the latest translations and interlinears are at
> > http://fiziwig.com/conlang/thirty_day.html
> >
> > --gary
> >
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 2:58 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Larry Sulky <larrysu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gary, your pretty interlinears have gone blah on days 4 and 5.
Yeah. Formatting each individual word as a table entry got to be too
time-consuming considering the short deadline. I'm using pre-formatted
text now. Making it pretty is something I might do after the 30-day
deadline has passed. Although as I get more fluent with the language
interlinears are becoming less necessary.
If the language actually works out then this page will be saved in the
dusty archives for historical interest, but I might make a whole new
"Learn to Speak X" lesson page. At the very least, I'll have a
complete grammar description and the dictionary.
(I still haven't discovered the name of the language.)
--gary
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a pretty cool project. I'm following it with interest.
Thanks. I have no idea where it's going, but that's what makes it interesting!
--gary
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
Posted by: "Parker Glynn-Adey" parkerglynna...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 6:15 pm ((PDT))
On 5 November 2010 17:35, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Larry Sulky <larrysu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Gary, your pretty interlinears have gone blah on days 4 and 5.
>
> Yeah. Formatting each individual word as a table entry got to be too
> time-consuming considering the short deadline. I'm using pre-formatted
> text now. Making it pretty is something I might do after the 30-day
> deadline has passed.
>
Since you're ahead of schedule, you should write up some scriptie to make
pretty interlinears for you! Come on, it won't take too long >:)~
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3f. Re: 30-Day conlang: Day Five
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 7:46 pm ((PDT))
You're right, of course. I'm so ashamed! :(
I'll write a script and have new, improved fancy interlinears back
with tomorrow's post.
On another topic: After I have a few dozen more sentences translated,
I'm going to take those sentences and see if I can parse them into a
formal grammar, Possibly even a context free grammar in BNF, if that
is possible. It would be very interesting to see if my "intuitive"
translation actually follows grammar rules that I am not consciously
aware of.
How cool would that be to see a formal grammar emerge spontaneously
from such an informal methodology!! :)
--gary
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Parker Glynn-Adey
<parkerglynna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 November 2010 17:35, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Larry Sulky <larrysu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Gary, your pretty interlinears have gone blah on days 4 and 5.
>>
>> Yeah. Formatting each individual word as a table entry got to be too
>> time-consuming considering the short deadline. I'm using pre-formatted
>> text now. Making it pretty is something I might do after the 30-day
>> deadline has passed.
>>
>
> Since you're ahead of schedule, you should write up some scriptie to make
> pretty interlinears for you! Come on, it won't take too long >:)~
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. boredom
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2010 3:10 pm ((PDT))
Recent events have made me think about the kinds of boredom expressed in
Aerest. As fits a language of scholars, it has several different degrees of
boredom:
upuala -- lit. "unstick." This is applied to topics that are presumed
interesting or important, but that are hard to get personally involved in.
upualan oruba yae
unsticks language me
I'm not interested in language (but I know that it's important)
lhomau -- lit. "to make 'what'" This is applied to a stream of meaningless
data without synthesis or application.
lhomaun pu yae
makes.what he me.
He bores me (by nattering on pointlessly)
ahu -- lit. "close, shut, bind." This can be used in a metaphoric idiom
meaning that a topic or text is important yet difficult. Unlike "upuala" it
implies that the person will continue plugging away, despite the difficulty.
It takes the person as its subject and the object of boredom in the
dative/instrumental.
sae ahum orubaere
I bind by.languages
Languages bore me (but I intend to keep working at them.)
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: boredom
Posted by: "the ursprachist ursprach" theursprach...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Nov 6, 2010 4:52 am ((PDT))
you forgot a word for alice's boredom, the boredom which arises from having
nothing to do
*"**Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the
bank, and of having nothing to do"* read tired as bored.
*" and **once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading,
but it had no pictures or conversations in it, and what is the use of a
book, thought Alice, without pictures or conversations?* is this lhomau
or upuala ( or both? )
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recent events have made me think about the kinds of boredom expressed in
> Aerest. As fits a language of scholars, it has several different degrees
> of
> boredom:
>
> upuala -- lit. "unstick." This is applied to topics that are presumed
> interesting or important, but that are hard to get personally involved in.
>
> upualan oruba yae
> unsticks language me
> I'm not interested in language (but I know that it's important)
>
> lhomau -- lit. "to make 'what'" This is applied to a stream of meaningless
> data without synthesis or application.
>
> lhomaun pu yae
> makes.what he me.
> He bores me (by nattering on pointlessly)
>
> ahu -- lit. "close, shut, bind." This can be used in a metaphoric idiom
> meaning that a topic or text is important yet difficult. Unlike "upuala"
> it
> implies that the person will continue plugging away, despite the
> difficulty.
> It takes the person as its subject and the object of boredom in the
> dative/instrumental.
>
> sae ahum orubaere
> I bind by.languages
> Languages bore me (but I intend to keep working at them.)
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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