There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Chinese writing question
From: Philip Newton
1b. Re: Chinese writing question
From: Eugene Oh
1c. Re: Chinese writing question
From: Garth Wallace
1d. Re: Chinese writing question
From: Karen Badham
1e. Re: Chinese writing question
From: Douglas Koller
2a. IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Gary Shannon
2b. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Noelle Morris
2c. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Garth Wallace
2d. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Douglas Koller
2e. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Garth Wallace
2f. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Roger Mills
2g. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: David McCann
2h. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Douglas Koller
2i. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
From: Garth Wallace
3a. Re: tonogenesis rides again
From: Matthew Boutilier
3b. Re: tonogenesis rides again
From: Matthew Boutilier
4. 30-Dat Conlang: Day Fifteen
From: Gary Shannon
5a. Nodictionaries.com - not spam, Latin interlinear site
From: Eugene Oh
5b. Re: Nodictionaries.com - not spam, Latin interlinear site
From: David Peterson
5c. Re: Nodictionaries.com - not spam, Latin interlinear site
From: Eugene Oh
6a. Re: origin of evidentials
From: David McCann
7a. meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
From: Daniel Bowman
7b. Re: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
From: Lee
7c. Re: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
From: Rebecca Bettencourt
7d. Re: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
From: Patrick Dunn
Messages
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1a. Re: Chinese writing question
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:23 am ((PST))
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 13:50, Roman Rausch <ara...@mail.ru> wrote:
> The first one must be the character for 'fang', the second one looks like a
> somewhat ill-shaped character for 'office, administration'.
I agree - it looks like 牙司 to me.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Chinese writing question
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:15 am ((PST))
Unfortunately googling either 牙目 or 牙司 yields only internet chatting usernames.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 15 Nov 2010, at 16:16, Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 13:50, Roman Rausch <ara...@mail.ru> wrote:
>> The first one must be the character for 'fang', the second one looks like a
>> somewhat ill-shaped character for 'office, administration'.
>
> I agree - it looks like 牙司 to me.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Chinese writing question
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:27 am ((PST))
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Peter Bleackley
<peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> I've got a birdbath at home with Chinese writing on it. I'd like to know
> what it says. You can see a picture of it on my blog at
> http://fantasticaldevices.wordpress.com/
The first one is definitely fang (or tusk). The second I can't see
clearly enough.
Messages in this topic (8)
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1d. Re: Chinese writing question
Posted by: "Karen Badham" ktbad...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:28 am ((PST))
As some others have said, it looks like 牙司 to me as well. Can you get one at
a better time of day without the shadow to make sure?
Messages in this topic (8)
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1e. Re: Chinese writing question
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:42 am ((PST))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Bleackley" <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:45:02 AM
Subject: Chinese writing question
>I've got a birdbath at home with Chinese writing on it. I'd like to know
>what it says.
Wow, got Rorschach? First off, the shadowing reminds me of the taiji, that
yin-yangy symbol of the Tao.
I see the 牙 "ya2" ("tooth", "fang") on the left. I don't really see Eugene's
"eye" which I'm guessing would be 目 "mu4". It took me quite a while to see
Roman's and Phillip's 司 "si4", but if that's it, the calligraphy style doesn't
seem to match. Frankly, on the right, I see a capital "S" (en relief?).
I've done some James Bondesque head snaps at the computer screen to see if all
will be revealed, as opposed to just glaring at it. Sometimes, I see "crow", 鴉
"ya1" which might make sense for a "bird", but if the hand in the photo is any
indication of scale, a crow in that would feel like me in a Japanese bathtub,
and crows, symbolically, aren't harbingers of good will you want around. Is it
really a birdbath? The other thing I see, if you pull your eyelid, is 雅 "ya3"
("refinement", "elegance", "decorum?"), which might work for some sort of tea
ceremony implement (and good luck with that. If you took a sip from that, you'd
shred your lip.). In either of these scenarios, the elements are too far apart,
unless, for bizarre reasons, they are being stretched for artistic purposes. I
doubt it.
But I also see a cartoony emoticon in the central "stain?"
As others have said, a clearer photograph would be nice.
Kou
Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:10 am ((PST))
My 30-day conlang project has a number of words that have what, for
lack of a better name, I'm calling "unvoiced vowels".
For example, if the language had the word "star" it would be
pronounced more like "sitar" with the accent on the second syllable,
but the first vowel is "whispered", i.e. not voiced. Other examples
include "txpunu" which is pronounced sort of like "chipunu" except
that, again, the first vowel is not voiced. That word definitely has
three syllables, but the first vowel is unvoiced. My orthography is
not always consistent and in some words I just jam the two consonants
together while in others I write "y" for the unvoiced vowel, as in
"xyxaso", pronounced somewhat like "shishaso" but with the first vowel
unvoiced.
How is this indicated in IPA? I haven't been able to locate any IPA
symbol for an unvoiced vowel.
Thanks,
--gary
Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Noelle Morris" rhaman...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:23 am ((PST))
Gary,
Voicelessness in vowels is indicated with a circle written underneath the
vowel in question. See the chart here under diacritics:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ipa.htm . Voiceless vowels, while rare, do
occur in some natlangs.
Hope this helps!
Noelle
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My 30-day conlang project has a number of words that have what, for
> lack of a better name, I'm calling "unvoiced vowels".
>
> For example, if the language had the word "star" it would be
> pronounced more like "sitar" with the accent on the second syllable,
> but the first vowel is "whispered", i.e. not voiced. Other examples
> include "txpunu" which is pronounced sort of like "chipunu" except
> that, again, the first vowel is not voiced. That word definitely has
> three syllables, but the first vowel is unvoiced. My orthography is
> not always consistent and in some words I just jam the two consonants
> together while in others I write "y" for the unvoiced vowel, as in
> "xyxaso", pronounced somewhat like "shishaso" but with the first vowel
> unvoiced.
>
> How is this indicated in IPA? I haven't been able to locate any IPA
> symbol for an unvoiced vowel.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:33 am ((PST))
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My 30-day conlang project has a number of words that have what, for
> lack of a better name, I'm calling "unvoiced vowels".
>
> For example, if the language had the word "star" it would be
> pronounced more like "sitar" with the accent on the second syllable,
> but the first vowel is "whispered", i.e. not voiced. Other examples
> include "txpunu" which is pronounced sort of like "chipunu" except
> that, again, the first vowel is not voiced. That word definitely has
> three syllables, but the first vowel is unvoiced. My orthography is
> not always consistent and in some words I just jam the two consonants
> together while in others I write "y" for the unvoiced vowel, as in
> "xyxaso", pronounced somewhat like "shishaso" but with the first vowel
> unvoiced.
>
> How is this indicated in IPA? I haven't been able to locate any IPA
> symbol for an unvoiced vowel.
Small circle under the letter, IIRC. In X-SAMPA and CXS, you use the
<_0> (underscore zero)suffix.
Traditionally, Japanese does something similar with /i/ and /u/ in
certain positions, though it's allophonic, not phonemic. And in speech
they frequently get dropped altogether.
Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:27 pm ((PST))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Wallace" <gwa...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:31:07 PM
Subject: Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Traditionally, Japanese does something similar with /i/ and /u/ in
certain positions, though it's allophonic, not phonemic. And in speech
they frequently get dropped altogether.
And /o/ in certain contexts as well. I've heard " Kyot' " for Kyoto.
"beddo" drops "o" for "bed"
Kou
Messages in this topic (9)
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2e. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:03 pm ((PST))
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Garth Wallace" <gwa...@gmail.com>
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:31:07 PM
> Subject: Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
>
> Traditionally, Japanese does something similar with /i/ and /u/ in
> certain positions, though it's allophonic, not phonemic. And in speech
> they frequently get dropped altogether.
>
> And /o/ in certain contexts as well. I've heard " Kyot' " for Kyoto.
> "beddo" drops "o" for "bed"
Interesting, I've never really noticed that. Is short /o/ just
dropping word-finally, or is it getting devoiced?
Messages in this topic (9)
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2f. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:34 pm ((PST))
--- On Mon, 11/15/10, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My 30-day conlang project has a
> number of words that have what, for
> lack of a better name, I'm calling "unvoiced vowels".
>
snips
>
> How is this indicated in IPA? I haven't been able to locate
> any IPA
> symbol for an unvoiced vowel.
>
see http://www.langsci.ucl.ac.uk/ipa/diacritics.html
the usual symbol is a small subscript circle. It should be available in a font
that includes full IPA
But I thought your inserted vowel (writen "y") was more of a schwa...it's
beginning to look like there may be some interesting conditioning going on--
after s and sh in your exs. it has an _i_ quality, which would kinda be
expected. How about after other consonants, if such clusters are possible?. In
any case, as I think someone said, it's nonphonemic. One alternative would be
to not indicate any V in initial C_C- and let it be inserted by rule (or even
by whim :-)))) )
I'm reminded of 19th C transcriptional vagaries in some of the Indonesian
languages I work on-- they have various initial CC clusters, and the
transcribers (I assume amateur) recorded variously a,e,i,o,u as a cluster
breaker, sometimes in harmony with the next V in the word, sometimes not.
Messages in this topic (9)
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2g. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:58 pm ((PST))
On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 11:06 -0800, Gary Shannon wrote:
> How is this indicated in IPA? I haven't been able to locate any IPA
> symbol for an unvoiced vowel.
You may find the IPA system displays badly, as combining diacritics
often do: alternatively, IPA /si̥tar/ is /sɪtar/ for Uralicists (small
capitals), while I prefer /siʰtar/.
Messages in this topic (9)
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2h. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:51 pm ((PST))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Wallace" <gwa...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:00:13 PM
Subject: Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Garth Wallace" <gwa...@gmail.com>
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:31:07 PM
> Subject: Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
>
> Traditionally, Japanese does something similar with /i/ and /u/ in
> certain positions, though it's allophonic, not phonemic. And in speech
> they frequently get dropped altogether.
>
> And /o/ in certain contexts as well. I've heard " Kyot' " for Kyoto.
> "beddo" drops "o" for "bed"
>Interesting, I've never really noticed that. Is short /o/ just
>dropping word-finally, or is it getting devoiced?
The term "dropping" makes me a little squeamish, but I guess that's what's
going on. /i/ and /u/ in Japanese are unrounded, which may lend them to getting
"whispered" (your "devoiced"), and eventually dropped. /o/, rounded, is not
whispered, so it must be dropped. Maybe what I'm describing is limited to the
"t" row of the chart? Notice that "Kyooto" has the long vowel up front, and
"beddo" has the geminate consonant (though voiced geminate consonants do not
occur in native Japanese words, to my knowledge). And those are the only two
examples that come to mind (though maybe, if you wanted to describe a lipstick
or nail polish as an exotic-sounding, some shade of "reddo", a similar
phenomenon would occur).
Kou
Messages in this topic (9)
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2i. Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:06 pm ((PST))
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Garth Wallace" <gwa...@gmail.com>
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:00:13 PM
> Subject: Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Garth Wallace" <gwa...@gmail.com>
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:31:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: IPA question -- unvoiced vowel
>>
>> Traditionally, Japanese does something similar with /i/ and /u/ in
>> certain positions, though it's allophonic, not phonemic. And in speech
>> they frequently get dropped altogether.
>>
>> And /o/ in certain contexts as well. I've heard " Kyot' " for Kyoto.
>> "beddo" drops "o" for "bed"
>
>>Interesting, I've never really noticed that. Is short /o/ just
>>dropping word-finally, or is it getting devoiced?
>
> The term "dropping" makes me a little squeamish, but I guess that's what's
> going on. /i/ and /u/ in Japanese are unrounded, which may lend them to
> getting "whispered" (your "devoiced"), and eventually dropped. /o/, rounded,
> is not whispered, so it must be dropped. Maybe what I'm describing is limited
> to the "t" row of the chart? Notice that "Kyooto" has the long vowel up
> front, and "beddo" has the geminate consonant (though voiced geminate
> consonants do not occur in native Japanese words, to my knowledge). And those
> are the only two examples that come to mind (though maybe, if you wanted to
> describe a lipstick or nail polish as an exotic-sounding, some shade of
> "reddo", a similar phenomenon would occur).
I suppose it could be just with the /t/ column, but that seems odd to
me. Voicelessness in Japanese is usually triggered by adjacent
unvoiced consonants. Maybe the non-native geminate /d:/ is felt as
being partly voiceless?
Also, the verb phrase nominalizer /no/ is reduced to /n/ sometimes
(namely, before forms of the copula /da/, and the particle /de/). I
wonder if that's related.
Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Re: tonogenesis rides again
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" mbout...@nd.edu
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:35 am ((PST))
>
> Something more compositional (e.g. _H _LH _L _HL) is simpler, and far far
> more transparent, if admittedly longer. I hereby give you a friendly push
> in that direction.
duly noted. i kept forgetting what the pinyin numbers referred to anyway.
they were also hella inconvenient for my scheme since i had 1, 2, and 4 but
no 3.
> On reading this, this was the first variation / analysis that came to my
> mind, one where the length distinction wasn't lost. Short vowels are one
> mora, long are two. Each mora is unmarked (= low) or high; every long
> vowel
> has to have at least one high mora, and both may be high at once; short
> vowels cannot have high morae. Which I think is a fine system, and more
> likely to explain why things would come about this sort of way. (Of
> course,
> you could then take my system and lose length but retain the pitches.)
> The flavour of this reminds me of the Slavic accentual developments.
> Someone else here can probably recommend a better place to read about them
> -- I was somehow cowed by most treatments I bumped into until finding Geoff
> Eddy's take on them for a Latin-to-Slavic bogolang:
> http://sleepingsages.com/kalinin/GeoffEddy/bogo.html
> but I guess the first place I'd point (besides WP) is
> http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf
>
WOW. thanks for the articles. also, i approve of the mono/di-moraic
distinction. i was sort of planning on doing that anyway. BUT i have a
question:
> To generalise a bit what Roger's been saying, the basic principle is that
> the prominent element receives the prominent tone (usually high, but it can
> be low), and the non-prominent tones on deleted elements accrete onto it
> and
> make contours.
>
> Your basic problem, at this level, is that both changes (2) and (3) have
> the
> first of two tone-bearing units survive (*V*CV and *V*G resp.), so they
> should both turn out prominent-tone-first.
>
> If you don't want them to merge, my best advice is to turn one of them to
> HL
> (perhaps (3)), then do some shifts in the tone system, then turn the other
> one ((2)) to HL now that the old HL is out of the way. Perhaps like this;
> this switches the outcomes of (1) and (2) but my gut feeling is it's more
> plausible that way. [View in fixed pitch.]
>
> V: VCV VG protolang
> V_HH VCV V_HL first tonogenesis
> V_H^ VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 1: raise second elements
> (^ means extra-high)
> V_LH VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 2: lower the H^ unit as a whole
> V_LH V_HL C V_HH second tonogenesis
>
i like your analysis and thank you profusely for the suggestion. i'm
wondering whether i can extend the idea a bit using this layout of
diphthongs from Classical Sanskrit:
a ā ai āi
/a/ /a:/ /e:/ /a:i/
forget about /e:/. my question: can i interpret the diphthong as a long
vowel + diphthong = 3 morae?
IF this can work ... i can set up my initial conditions thus:
V: VCV V:G
V_HH VCV V_HHL
this doesn't seem to me to be an outrageous stretch. but tell me what you
think about the following chain shift:
V_HH VCV V_HHL
V_HL VCV V_HHL
V_HL VCV V_HH
wherein first the last mora of HH "weakens" (lowers) and second the last
mora of HHL drops out. if THIS is acceptable, i can then do your extra-high
trick thus:
V_HH VCV V_H^
V_HH VCV V_LH
V_HH V_HL V_LH
thoughts?
matt
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:50:07 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >i have some ideas for tonogenesis. they aren't the standard voiceless
> cons.
> >> high tone, etc., but i think they're plausible so i thought i would
> >shamelessly post them and hope for comments.
> >
> >in chronological order (if it matters; also, i'm using the pinyin numbers
> >for simplicity):
>
> Something more compositional (e.g. _H _LH _L _HL) is simpler, and far far
> more transparent, if admittedly longer. I hereby give you a friendly push
> in that direction.
>
> >1) V: > V_1
> >e.g. lo:kam > lo1kam
> >basically, vowel length ceases to be phonemic (chronemic) and long vowels
> >are realized as ones with *high *pitch
> >
> >2) VCVCV > V_4CCV
> >e.g. todumag > to4dmag ( > to4zma )
> >the syncope rule: wherever syncope occurs, the preceding vowel
> "compensates"
> >(to use a sufficiently vague term) by developing *falling* tone
> >
> >3) VS > V_2
> >(S = semivowel)
> >e.g. pelwoi > pelwo2
> >basically, falling diphthongs become pure vowels with *rising* tone.
> yeah,
> >i know diphthongs =/= vowel+semivowel but here the difference is trivial
> >enough.
> >
> >[4) none of the above - which will apply for most of the syllables in a
> big
> >word, and most monosyllabic words - implies no tone, or neutral tone, or
> >whatever.]
>
> On reading this, this was the first variation / analysis that came to my
> mind, one where the length distinction wasn't lost. Short vowels are one
> mora, long are two. Each mora is unmarked (= low) or high; every long
> vowel
> has to have at least one high mora, and both may be high at once; short
> vowels cannot have high morae. Which I think is a fine system, and more
> likely to explain why things would come about this sort of way. (Of
> course,
> you could then take my system and lose length but retain the pitches.)
>
> The flavour of this reminds me of the Slavic accentual developments.
> Someone else here can probably recommend a better place to read about them
> -- I was somehow cowed by most treatments I bumped into until finding Geoff
> Eddy's take on them for a Latin-to-Slavic bogolang:
> http://sleepingsages.com/kalinin/GeoffEddy/bogo.html
> but I guess the first place I'd point (besides WP) is
> http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf
>
> >thoughts? does this make any sense whatsoever? should 2) and 3) be
> >reversed? wiki, fount of all knowledge, says that falling diphthongs
> often
> >have higher pitch on the more prominent first element ... but how
> universal
> >does this have to be?
>
> To generalise a bit what Roger's been saying, the basic principle is that
> the prominent element receives the prominent tone (usually high, but it can
> be low), and the non-prominent tones on deleted elements accrete onto it
> and
> make contours.
>
> Your basic problem, at this level, is that both changes (2) and (3) have
> the
> first of two tone-bearing units survive (*V*CV and *V*G resp.), so they
> should both turn out prominent-tone-first.
>
> If you don't want them to merge, my best advice is to turn one of them to
> HL
> (perhaps (3)), then do some shifts in the tone system, then turn the other
> one ((2)) to HL now that the old HL is out of the way. Perhaps like this;
> this switches the outcomes of (1) and (2) but my gut feeling is it's more
> plausible that way. [View in fixed pitch.]
>
> V: VCV VG protolang
> V_HH VCV V_HL first tonogenesis
> V_H^ VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 1: raise second elements
> (^ means extra-high)
> V_LH VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 2: lower the H^ unit as a whole
> V_LH V_HL C V_HH second tonogenesis
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: tonogenesis rides again
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" mbout...@nd.edu
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:58 pm ((PST))
forget everything i just said. what about the following:
V: VCV VCV:
V_HH VCV VCV_HH long vowel > high/long vowel
V_H VCV VCV_H long vowel > short vowel (vowel
length not phonemic)
V_H V_HL C V_LH C syncope: a vowel preceding a
syncopated vowel gets HL tone UNLESS syncopated vowel is H, in which case
vowel preceding it gets LH
basically, i scrapped the diphthongs altogether, realizing that i only put
them in there to (unsuccessfully) account for V_LH in the first place.
does this make sense??
matt
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu> wrote:
> Something more compositional (e.g. _H _LH _L _HL) is simpler, and far far
>> more transparent, if admittedly longer. I hereby give you a friendly push
>> in that direction.
>
>
> duly noted. i kept forgetting what the pinyin numbers referred to anyway.
> they were also hella inconvenient for my scheme since i had 1, 2, and 4 but
> no 3.
>
>
>> On reading this, this was the first variation / analysis that came to my
>> mind, one where the length distinction wasn't lost. Short vowels are one
>> mora, long are two. Each mora is unmarked (= low) or high; every long
>> vowel
>> has to have at least one high mora, and both may be high at once; short
>> vowels cannot have high morae. Which I think is a fine system, and more
>> likely to explain why things would come about this sort of way. (Of
>> course,
>> you could then take my system and lose length but retain the pitches.)
>> The flavour of this reminds me of the Slavic accentual developments.
>> Someone else here can probably recommend a better place to read about them
>> -- I was somehow cowed by most treatments I bumped into until finding
>> Geoff
>> Eddy's take on them for a Latin-to-Slavic bogolang:
>> http://sleepingsages.com/kalinin/GeoffEddy/bogo.html
>> but I guess the first place I'd point (besides WP) is
>> http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf
>>
>
> WOW. thanks for the articles. also, i approve of the mono/di-moraic
> distinction. i was sort of planning on doing that anyway. BUT i have a
> question:
>
>
>> To generalise a bit what Roger's been saying, the basic principle is that
>> the prominent element receives the prominent tone (usually high, but it
>> can
>> be low), and the non-prominent tones on deleted elements accrete onto it
>> and
>> make contours.
>>
>> Your basic problem, at this level, is that both changes (2) and (3) have
>> the
>> first of two tone-bearing units survive (*V*CV and *V*G resp.), so they
>> should both turn out prominent-tone-first.
>>
>> If you don't want them to merge, my best advice is to turn one of them to
>> HL
>> (perhaps (3)), then do some shifts in the tone system, then turn the other
>> one ((2)) to HL now that the old HL is out of the way. Perhaps like this;
>> this switches the outcomes of (1) and (2) but my gut feeling is it's more
>> plausible that way. [View in fixed pitch.]
>>
>> V: VCV VG protolang
>> V_HH VCV V_HL first tonogenesis
>> V_H^ VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 1: raise second elements
>> (^ means extra-high)
>> V_LH VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 2: lower the H^ unit as a whole
>> V_LH V_HL C V_HH second tonogenesis
>>
>
> i like your analysis and thank you profusely for the suggestion. i'm
> wondering whether i can extend the idea a bit using this layout of
> diphthongs from Classical Sanskrit:
>
> a ā ai āi
> /a/ /a:/ /e:/ /a:i/
> forget about /e:/. my question: can i interpret the diphthong as a long
> vowel + diphthong = 3 morae?
>
> IF this can work ... i can set up my initial conditions thus:
>
> V: VCV V:G
> V_HH VCV V_HHL
>
> this doesn't seem to me to be an outrageous stretch. but tell me what you
> think about the following chain shift:
> V_HH VCV V_HHL
> V_HL VCV V_HHL
> V_HL VCV V_HH
> wherein first the last mora of HH "weakens" (lowers) and second the last
> mora of HHL drops out. if THIS is acceptable, i can then do your extra-high
> trick thus:
> V_HH VCV V_H^
> V_HH VCV V_LH
> V_HH V_HL V_LH
>
> thoughts?
>
> matt
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:50:07 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >i have some ideas for tonogenesis. they aren't the standard voiceless
>> cons.
>> >> high tone, etc., but i think they're plausible so i thought i would
>> >shamelessly post them and hope for comments.
>> >
>> >in chronological order (if it matters; also, i'm using the pinyin numbers
>> >for simplicity):
>>
>> Something more compositional (e.g. _H _LH _L _HL) is simpler, and far far
>> more transparent, if admittedly longer. I hereby give you a friendly push
>> in that direction.
>>
>> >1) V: > V_1
>> >e.g. lo:kam > lo1kam
>> >basically, vowel length ceases to be phonemic (chronemic) and long vowels
>> >are realized as ones with *high *pitch
>> >
>> >2) VCVCV > V_4CCV
>> >e.g. todumag > to4dmag ( > to4zma )
>> >the syncope rule: wherever syncope occurs, the preceding vowel
>> "compensates"
>> >(to use a sufficiently vague term) by developing *falling* tone
>> >
>> >3) VS > V_2
>> >(S = semivowel)
>> >e.g. pelwoi > pelwo2
>> >basically, falling diphthongs become pure vowels with *rising* tone.
>> yeah,
>> >i know diphthongs =/= vowel+semivowel but here the difference is trivial
>> >enough.
>> >
>> >[4) none of the above - which will apply for most of the syllables in a
>> big
>> >word, and most monosyllabic words - implies no tone, or neutral tone, or
>> >whatever.]
>>
>> On reading this, this was the first variation / analysis that came to my
>> mind, one where the length distinction wasn't lost. Short vowels are one
>> mora, long are two. Each mora is unmarked (= low) or high; every long
>> vowel
>> has to have at least one high mora, and both may be high at once; short
>> vowels cannot have high morae. Which I think is a fine system, and more
>> likely to explain why things would come about this sort of way. (Of
>> course,
>> you could then take my system and lose length but retain the pitches.)
>>
>> The flavour of this reminds me of the Slavic accentual developments.
>> Someone else here can probably recommend a better place to read about them
>> -- I was somehow cowed by most treatments I bumped into until finding
>> Geoff
>> Eddy's take on them for a Latin-to-Slavic bogolang:
>> http://sleepingsages.com/kalinin/GeoffEddy/bogo.html
>> but I guess the first place I'd point (besides WP) is
>> http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf
>>
>> >thoughts? does this make any sense whatsoever? should 2) and 3) be
>> >reversed? wiki, fount of all knowledge, says that falling diphthongs
>> often
>> >have higher pitch on the more prominent first element ... but how
>> universal
>> >does this have to be?
>>
>> To generalise a bit what Roger's been saying, the basic principle is that
>> the prominent element receives the prominent tone (usually high, but it
>> can
>> be low), and the non-prominent tones on deleted elements accrete onto it
>> and
>> make contours.
>>
>> Your basic problem, at this level, is that both changes (2) and (3) have
>> the
>> first of two tone-bearing units survive (*V*CV and *V*G resp.), so they
>> should both turn out prominent-tone-first.
>>
>> If you don't want them to merge, my best advice is to turn one of them to
>> HL
>> (perhaps (3)), then do some shifts in the tone system, then turn the other
>> one ((2)) to HL now that the old HL is out of the way. Perhaps like this;
>> this switches the outcomes of (1) and (2) but my gut feeling is it's more
>> plausible that way. [View in fixed pitch.]
>>
>> V: VCV VG protolang
>> V_HH VCV V_HL first tonogenesis
>> V_H^ VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 1: raise second elements
>> (^ means extra-high)
>> V_LH VCV V_HH tone shifts stage 2: lower the H^ unit as a whole
>> V_LH V_HL C V_HH second tonogenesis
>>
>> Alex
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. 30-Dat Conlang: Day Fifteen
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:35 pm ((PST))
Under the heading of happy accidents, as I was doing today's
translation I was trying to decide whether to express a certain
passage with the verb "stay; remain" and the negative particle ixi, or
to use the verb "leave; depart". That's when I noticed that "not stay"
is ixi taso and "leave" is itxaso. ("x" is pronounced "sh" and "tx" is
pronounced "ch") It's almost as if itxaso was derived from ixi taso
even though the two verbs were coined independently. Happy accidents
like that are one of the many interesting things about building a
conlang in such an unplanned manner as this.
On day fifteen I have 1616 words out of 2198, or 74% of the original
text translated. The dictionary now contains 375 conlang words and 889
English words.
--gary
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Nodictionaries.com - not spam, Latin interlinear site
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:33 pm ((PST))
I found this site while searching for a quote by Cicero for my essay on
nationalism.
It displays the original Latin text with a sliding bar by which you adjust
how much interlinear text your want (more = easier words, less = harder
words only), hence "nodictionaries.com".
Thought I would share it with the list (with the appropriate caveat to
ensure it wasn't classed as spam (: )
Eugene
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Nodictionaries.com - not spam, Latin interlinear site
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:41 pm ((PST))
And guess where I found your message? In my spam box. ;p
On Nov 15, 2010, at 3◊30 PM, Eugene Oh wrote:
> I found this site while searching for a quote by Cicero for my essay on
> nationalism.
>
> It displays the original Latin text with a sliding bar by which you adjust
> how much interlinear text your want (more = easier words, less = harder
> words only), hence "nodictionaries.com".
>
> Thought I would share it with the list (with the appropriate caveat to
> ensure it wasn't classed as spam (: )
>
> Eugene
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunlü eleškarez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Nodictionaries.com - not spam, Latin interlinear site
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:45 pm ((PST))
I knew it, the URL in the subject line was a dead bait. :\
Eugene
2010/11/15 David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com>
> And guess where I found your message? In my spam box. ;p
>
> On Nov 15, 2010, at 3◊30 PM, Eugene Oh wrote:
>
> > I found this site while searching for a quote by Cicero for my essay on
> > nationalism.
> >
> > It displays the original Latin text with a sliding bar by which you
> adjust
> > how much interlinear text your want (more = easier words, less = harder
> > words only), hence "nodictionaries.com".
> >
> > Thought I would share it with the list (with the appropriate caveat to
> > ensure it wasn't classed as spam (: )
> >
> > Eugene
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "Sunlü eleškarez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.com/
>
> LCS Member Since 2007
> http://conlang.org/
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: origin of evidentials
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:48 pm ((PST))
On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 00:18 -0600, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> 1. Anyone have a notion where or why evidential marking arises in a
> natlang?
Particles are common, as in Coos. These could start as adverbs or even
verbs, like the Greman "sollen" for supposition and the English "must"
for inference. They could then become affixes, which has probably
happened in those languages like Pomo where the evidential marker is
furthest from the root. In some languages the evidential affix is close
to the verbal root and probably a derivative in origin.
Many languages do blend evidentals and modality. Epistemic modality is
obviously close to evidentiality, as in the English "must".
> 3. Is my list of categories of evidentiality realistic? Too long? Missing
> something?
The distinctions of observation, hearsay, and inference are common.
Pomo adds general knowledge and events in which the speaker physically
participated; Kwakw'ala, dreams and visions; Coos, seeming; some
languages distinguish what is seen from what is perceived with other
senses.
> 4. How does evidentiality work in the first person? My first instinct is
> to say that evidentiality isn't marked at all in the first person, only
> second and third.
I think evidentiality is needed for the first person: "It seems I was
mistaken." In Central Pomo, dačéwala "I caught it" has the suffix -la
that indicates the event was experienced, not observed.
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7a. meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:14 pm ((PST))
I have a question for all you symbologists out there (Tom Hanks included).
What meanings does the symbol of a triangle inside a circle have?
Apparently it was (is?) used by Alcoholics Anonymous. However, such a
symbol must exist also in antiquity, and Google isn't helping me out here.
When I try googling it, I get hits about AA or warnings about satanism,
neither of which is helpful for me, thankfully.
The reason I'm curious is because I invented this symbol, and a meaning
behind it, in my conculture. It occurs to me I should check what other
meanings it might have.
Thanks,
Danny
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7b. Re: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:37 pm ((PST))
Point one of the angles to the right and you've got "play media."
Lee
--- On Mon, 11/15/10, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
Subject: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Monday, November 15, 2010, 8:12 PM
I have a question for all you symbologists out there (Tom Hanks included).
What meanings does the symbol of a triangle inside a circle have?
Apparently it was (is?) used by Alcoholics Anonymous. However, such a
symbol must exist also in antiquity, and Google isn't helping me out here.
When I try googling it, I get hits about AA or warnings about satanism,
neither of which is helpful for me, thankfully.
The reason I'm curious is because I invented this symbol, and a meaning
behind it, in my conculture. It occurs to me I should check what other
meanings it might have.
Thanks,
Danny
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7c. Re: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
Posted by: "Rebecca Bettencourt" beckie...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:44 pm ((PST))
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Point one of the angles to the right and you've got "play media."
The same to the left, and you've got "cold restart."
-- Rebecca Bettencourt
"I could counter with the fact that a disproportionate number of TG
women I know are computer programmers. ::grin:: In fact, there's a
joke going around that says exposure to computer screens causes
transsexuality." -- Kate Bornstein
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7d. Re: meaning of a triangle inscribed in a circle
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:48 pm ((PST))
There's roughly a bajjilion alchemical symbols that involve circles and
triangles. I can't off the top of my head think of one that involves a
triangle in a circle, but there's a lot of nonce combinations. The circle
is often used for gold or gold-like metals. The triangle with one point up
represents "fire" or "caustic." So if you were to run into something
caustic of a golden color, I suppose I wouldn't be surprised to see it
symbolized by a triangle in a circle.
In the occult, the triangle has more possible meanings than the morpheme -s
in English. It can represent fire, as I said, or water, depending on the
direction. It can symbolize the planet Saturn, the principle of Sulfur, or
any of your choice of trinities. A circle in a triangle is used in
evocations of Goetic spirits.
Ditto the circle: perfect, eternity, protection (in ceremonial magic),
community (in some branches of Wicca), the year, the universe, God,
initiation . . .
So -- a triangle in a circle can mean nearly any darned thing you like, it
seems to me. At least as far as alchemy and the occult go.
As far as social meaning, I'll leave that to someone who occasionally leaves
the house.
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Rebecca Bettencourt <beckie...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Point one of the angles to the right and you've got "play media."
>
> The same to the left, and you've got "cold restart."
>
> -- Rebecca Bettencourt
>
> "I could counter with the fact that a disproportionate number of TG
> women I know are computer programmers. ::grin:: In fact, there's a
> joke going around that says exposure to computer screens causes
> transsexuality." -- Kate Bornstein
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (4)
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