There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Conlang Insomnia
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: Conlang Insomnia
From: David Peterson
1c. Re: Conlang Insomnia
From: Patrick Dunn
2a. Re: Speak Geek: An article on conlangs at The Register
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2b. Re: Speak Geek: An article on conlangs at The Register
From: Daniel Nielsen
3a. Re: TAKE - revision now includes pronouns
From: R A Brown
3b. Re: TAKE - revision now includes pronouns
From: Lars Finsen
3c. Re: TAKE - revision now includes pronouns
From: R A Brown
4a. Re: Birdbath part 2
From: Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
4b. Re: Birdbath part 2
From: Eugene Oh
4c. Re: Birdbath part 2
From: Peter Bleackley
5a. putting morpho and phono together
From: neo gu
5b. Re: putting morpho and phono together
From: Roger Mills
5c. Re: putting morpho and phono together
From: neo gu
Messages
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1a. Re: Conlang Insomnia
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:34 am ((PST))
Hallo!
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 15:03:19 -0600, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> Does anyone else suffer from conlang insomnia, or am I the only one who lies
> in bed trying not to think about how to indicate the infixes in my
> logographic writing system?
Oh yes, that kind of thing is pretty familiar to me. I often
find it hard to get to sleep because some issue in one of my
conlangs, or some other project, keeps me awake.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: Conlang Insomnia
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:07 am ((PST))
Speaking of insomnia, I just had a dream featuring a correspondence
set in a strange dialect of Italian (obviously fake). I'm going to try to
remember as much of it as I can (difference is between nominative
and accusative):
"grass" ɣrraas ~ ɣrraass
"window" tuto ~ tukutow
"?" tutok ~ tutox
"?" ans ~ anss
And...it's gone. Just woke up; was trying to get it all down. There
was a list of something like 10 words, and it was for a linguistics
problem set. There was no distinction in the orthography between
these long vowels and consonants, so they looked like this:
ghras (both nom/acc)
tuto~tucutow
tutoc~tutoch
ans (both nom/acc)
So it didn't keep me up, but it invaded my dreams!
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunlü eleÅ¡karez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: Conlang Insomnia
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:34 am ((PST))
I've managed to kill one of the infixes, leaving a couple derivational ones
and one verbal one that applies only to stative verbs. My current solution
is to modify the graph with a chevron-like mark at the top to indicate the
infix. But I'm not in love with this solution. It looks fine in kakulkul
writing (carved on stone), but really ugly in kaisia writing (written with a
brush, as of now, although that might change as I experiment with reed
pens).
I suppose I could just spell every infixed verb out using the 75 rebus
graphs, but that really seems inelegant. It seems they'd come up with some
way of indicating the presence of the infixes well before developing the
complete set of rebus graphs.
The derivational infixes are less of an issue, since those words using them
that have logographs are more likely to (a) have separate logographs for the
derived word, rather than modify the root and (b) not have logographs in
kaisia, only in kakulkul.
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Peter Bleackley <
peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> staving Patrick Dunn:
>
> Does anyone else suffer from conlang insomnia, or am I the only one who
>> lies
>> in bed trying not to think about how to indicate the infixes in my
>> logographic writing system?
>>
>>
> In iljena, triliteral noun roots are represented by logograms. The vowel
> patterns that constitute the verb are represented by diacritics. Vowels
> occurring before the first consonant are represented by a diacritic to the
> left of the logogram, those between the first and second consonant above the
> logogram, those between the second and third consonant below the logogram,
> and those after the third consonant to the right of the logogram. So if the
> logogram for "ljn" (Leyen) is represented by X, "iljena" (Leyen speak) would
> be
>
> iXa
> e
>
> The diacritics rotate so that the same part of them is always towards the
> logogram.
>
> Pete
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: Speak Geek: An article on conlangs at The Register
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:40 am ((PST))
Hallo!
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:41:56 +0100, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Well no, they wouldn't need to embrace it. However I think such articles
> are often terrible in that they completely exclude people who aren't
> idealist log- and auxlangers, but simply do it for self-education,
> "word-tinkering," and/or artistic expression, not necesssarily with a
> hope to get published or gain other merits from it.
I think the problem is that most of these articles and books are
written by people who aren't conlangers themselves, and thus do
not really understand how much fun and of self-educational value
conlanging is. They found it hard to learn foreign languages in
school, and therefore think that *making* a language was an
unrewarding, unenjoyable drudgery which people never undergo
without some external motivation, such as making the world a more
peaceful place, freeing thought from the fetters of illogical
language, or something like that; and people who learn Elvish,
Klingon or Na'vi are obviously nerdish fanboys who take their
favourite fictional world too seriously.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: Speak Geek: An article on conlangs at The Register
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:56 am ((PST))
Yeah, agree with the above, esp. skipping over large and important classes
of conlangs to focus on a very few particular examples that agreed with the
"pointy ears" title - not a good approach in an introductory article to a
general audience, I'd say. Misspelling Arika on page one of the article,
which relies so heavily on the book, didn't help the impression either.
Still, it was not a terrible introductory article, and I found a couple of
details that made it worthwhile.
Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: TAKE - revision now includes pronouns
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:13 am ((PST))
On 16/11/2010 19:09, Lars Finsen wrote:
> Den 16. nov. 2010 kl. 08.30 skreiv R A Brown:
>
>> As I think a few have noticed, TAKE is being revised to
>> make more strictly _ancient_ Greek without inflexions, and
>> to move away from the 'pidginization' that was creeping
>> into the original version.
>
> So the aim of TAKE now is to make something that could
> function as an auxlang and/or traveller's aid in the
> hellenistic world?
Well, no - since I abandoned the whole notion of an
alternative Hellenistic world earlier this year. My aim is,
as I write on
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/index.html
{quote}
- To retain the vocabulary of common Greek of the Classical
and early Koine (5th century BCE to 1st century CE),
allowing the occasional of Homeric (Epic) forms or
constructions when necessary.
- To allow modern terms based, as far as possible, on
ancient norms.
- To produce a language truly without inflexions, thus
adopting an isolating syntax.
{/quote}
Also on that page I say that: "I am constructing ΤÎÎÎ purely
as an intellectual exercise: to produce an ancient Greek
without inflexions."
It has no more useful aim than that. The language owed its
origin to a chance remark made on Conlang list in February
2006 about "Graeco sine Flexione." In May 2007 Philip
Newton produced his "AkļiteļiÅika or Greek sans flexions (GSF)"
http://gsf.mizinamo.org/
This was a modern Greek without inflexions. As "Graeco sine
Flexione" was clearly a humorous reference to "Latino sine
Flexione" I had been thinking in terms of classical Greek
without inflexions.
At first we tried to imagine a scenario in which someone
might produce this. i.e. a world where Greek, not Latin, had
been the lingua franca of medieval Europe - hence WHATL,
RHATL etc. But I realized that as in that scenario TAKE was
intended as an auxlang, I was introducing various "auxlangy"
features, moving towards a sort of "Hellenic Esperanto"
rather than a "Graeco sine Flexione" in the manner of
Giuseppe Peano's "Latino sine Flexione."
Partly because I was finding the Hellenic alternative
time-line too restricting and partly because I am not
exactly fond of auxlangs, I dropped the whole alternative
time-line auxlang business.
The present revision is pruning the language of non-Greek
"auxlang inspired" elements and, _purely as an intellectual
exercise_, trying to produce a viable "ancient Greek without
inflexions" - a good deal harder than producing a "Latino
sine Flexione"!
After all, Philip didn't feel the need for some fictitious
scenario for his AkļiteļiÅika. So why have a fictitious
setting for TAKE?
Like most conlangs, it's being constructed for no better
purpose than its author's pleasure :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: TAKE - revision now includes pronouns
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:30 pm ((PST))
Den 18. nov. 2010 kl. 18.05 skreiv R A Brown:
> After all, Philip didn't feel the need for some fictitious scenario
> for his AkļiteļiÅika. So why have a fictitious setting for TAKE?
>
> Like most conlangs, it's being constructed for no better purpose
> than its author's pleasure :)
Yes, I realise that. And I have followed the project a little, so I'm
a little updated. I only thought it *could* have functioned as a
travellers aid etc. in those days, even in its currently more
purified form.
Anyway, good luck with the project. It doesn't interest me as much as
it did before, but why the heck should you care about that?
;-) LEF
Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: TAKE - revision now includes pronouns
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:56 pm ((PST))
On 19/11/2010 01:27, Lars Finsen wrote:
> Den 18. nov. 2010 kl. 18.05 skreiv R A Brown:
>[snip]
>
> Yes, I realise that. And I have followed the project a
> little, so I'm a little updated. I only thought it
> *could* have functioned as a travellers aid etc. in those
> days, even in its currently more purified form.
Yes, I guess it *could* - though that's not my aim. Bit I'm
not sure that it would, any more than 'Latino sine Flexione'
has served as a traveler's aid here.
> Anyway, good luck with the project. It doesn't interest
> me as much as it did before, but why the heck should you
> care about that?
Indeed not ;)
I get the impression there's only a very small bunch of
philhellenists who are interested. But, having started this
project, I'd like to see it through. Who knows who may find
something of interest in it?
It may, for example, be of interest to some auxlanger who
thinks s/he can do a better job of updating Hogben's
Interglossa than Ronald Clark and Wendy Ashby did with
Glosa. Who knows?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Birdbath part 2
Posted by: "Paul Schleitwiler, FCM" pjschleitwiler...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:30 am ((PST))
If your reading correct, it would mean "dental division".
Small size of vessel (note hand holding it in photo) argues it is not a
birdbath. Perhaps it is a cup to hold dentures?
What is the provenance of this item?
That might shed light on the meaning of the characters.
God bless you always, all ways,
Paul
2010/11/18 Eugene Oh <un.do...@gmail.com>
> Unfortunately it indeed seems to be çå¸, which as I have mentioned means
> nothing in the common lexicon.
>
> Eugene
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 18 Nov 2010, at 09:37, Peter Bleackley <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > I've uploaded a better photo of the birdbath (without the shadow that
> made the second character difficult to read) at
> http://fantasticaldevices.wordpress.com/
> >
> > Pete
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Birdbath part 2
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:45 am ((PST))
That is a fair interpretation. I still have the vague impression, and my friend
with me, that te characters seem to have been inscribe by person(s) not very
proficient in the Chinese script. The characters are not very well-formed.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 18 Nov 2010, at 17:26, "Paul Schleitwiler, FCM"
<pjschleitwiler...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If your reading correct, it would mean "dental division".
> Small size of vessel (note hand holding it in photo) argues it is not a
> birdbath. Perhaps it is a cup to hold dentures?
> What is the provenance of this item?
> That might shed light on the meaning of the characters.
> God bless you always, all ways,
> Paul
>
> 2010/11/18 Eugene Oh <un.do...@gmail.com>
>
>> Unfortunately it indeed seems to be ¤ú¥q, which as I have mentioned means
>> nothing in the common lexicon.
>>
>> Eugene
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 18 Nov 2010, at 09:37, Peter Bleackley <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've uploaded a better photo of the birdbath (without the shadow that
>> made the second character difficult to read) at
>> http://fantasticaldevices.wordpress.com/
>>>
>>> Pete
>>
Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Birdbath part 2
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:32 am ((PST))
On 18/11/2010 17:26, Paul Schleitwiler, FCM wrote:
> If your reading correct, it would mean "dental division".
> Small size of vessel (note hand holding it in photo) argues it is not a
> birdbath. Perhaps it is a cup to hold dentures?
> What is the provenance of this item?
> That might shed light on the meaning of the characters.
> God bless you always, all ways,
> Paul
>
Provenance - found half-buried in a flowerbed, Horsham, Sussex 2009.
Decided to use it as a birdbath. Original use unknown. Appears to be a
mass-produced item, rather than hand-crafted. Sorry not to have more
useful information.
Pete
Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. putting morpho and phono together
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:24 am ((PST))
I have the morphology and phonology for my latest largely worked out,
but I'm having trouble putting them together. I'm looking for tactical
suggestions.
Syllables are ((C)C(l))V(X) where X is V, r, or n (homorganic). Cl is
limited to pl tl kl, and CC are also limited. Accent is one of pitch.
Here are some sample target words:
'pix.ke.na
ho.ro'too.kte.wa
kex'te
'skam.pam.pte
sii'kan.ta.ro
'hex.mi.ne
'lac.ti
ki'p|an.te.ke
ma.fma'nan'ti
'qtan.to.kar
te'qtem.ma
'ya.sten
'klee.sta
'o.tla.kan
ptlai'ki.se
'sma.cin.ko
complementary pairs: l/r, h/f.
q = /X/, x = /S/, | = /?/, c = /tS)/
Verbs have from 1 to 3 agreement prefixes; the 1st marks the subject,
which could also be switch-reference, and the 2nd marks the primary
object or valence reduction. Possible verb suffix groups are derivation,
aspect, tense, and evidentialty, the last 2 only on finite verbs.
Nouns have a "case" prefix, an optional possessor prefix, and a plural
suffix.
TIA
neo gu
Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: putting morpho and phono together
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:39 pm ((PST))
--- On Thu, 11/18/10, neo gu <qiihos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have the morphology and phonology
> for my latest largely worked out,
> but I'm having trouble putting them together. I'm looking
> for tactical
> suggestions.
>
> Syllables are ((C)C(l))V(X) where X is V, r, or n
> (homorganic). Cl is
> limited to pl tl kl, and CC are also limited. Accent is one
> of pitch.
>
> Here are some sample target words:
>
> 'pix.ke.na (should be pi.xke.na??)
> kex'te (ke.xte??)
> 'hex.mi.ne (he.xmi.ne??)
> 'lac.ti (la.cti??)_
Don't those violate syl.structure? I don't see any allowance for CVC syllables
(other than with -r, -n). Metal lapse? because others look correct---
> ma.fma'nan'ti (not maf.ma....)
> 'qtan.to.kar
> te'qtem.ma (not teq.tem....) etc.
> 'ya.sten
> 'klee.sta
> 'o.tla.kan
> ptlai'ki.se
> 'sma.cin.ko
Or am I missing something?
Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: putting morpho and phono together
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:19 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:35:49 -0800, Roger Mills
<romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>--- On Thu, 11/18/10, neo gu <qiihos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have the morphology and phonology
>> for my latest largely worked out,
>> but I'm having trouble putting them together. I'm looking
>> for tactical suggestions.
>>
>> Syllables are ((C)C(l))V(X) where X is V, r, or n (homorganic). Cl is
>> limited to pl tl kl, and CC are also limited. Accent is one of pitch.
>>
>> Here are some sample target words:
>>
>> 'pix.ke.na (should be pi.xke.na??)
>> kex'te (ke.xte??)
>> 'hex.mi.ne (he.xmi.ne??)
>> 'lac.ti (la.cti??)_
>
> Don't those violate syl.structure? I don't see any allowance for
> CVC syllables (other than with -r, -n). Metal lapse?
yes, misplaced syllable division and yes, metal fatigue.
A better example than the first one might be 'pir.kna
I'm not sure that's the real syllable structure, but it allow the same
formula to be used for initial, medial, and final syllables.
> because others look correct---
>
> > ma.fma'nan'ti (not maf.ma....)
> > 'qtan.to.kar
> > te'qtem.ma (not teq.tem....) etc.
> > 'ya.sten
> > 'klee.sta
> > 'o.tla.kan
> > ptlai'ki.se
> > 'sma.cin.ko
>
> Or am I missing something?
not at all -- thanks!
Messages in this topic (3)
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