There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Volunteers wanted for experiment.
From: Peter Bleackley
1b. Re: Volunteers wanted for experiment.
From: sarah louise frank
2a. Exquisite corpse
From: Peter Bleackley
2b. Re: Exquisite corpse
From: Samuel Stutter
2c. Re: Exquisite corpse
From: Lars Finsen
2d. Re: Exquisite corpse
From: Patrick Dunn
2e. Re: Exquisite corpse
From: Tony Harris
3a. Re: Latin/Chinese altlang
From: David McCann
4a. Tolkien example
From: Dirk Elzinga
4b. Re: Tolkien example
From: René Uittenbogaard
4c. Re: Tolkien example
From: Andreas Johansson
4d. Re: Tolkien example
From: Dirk Elzinga
4e. Re: Tolkien example
From: Philip Newton
4f. Re: Tolkien example
From: Arthaey Angosii
5a. Missing infinitive
From: Gary Shannon
5b. Re: Missing infinitive
From: Michael D Martin
5c. Re: Missing infinitive
From: Alex Fink
5d. Re: Missing infinitive
From: neo gu
5e. Re: Missing infinitive
From: R A Brown
5f. Re: Missing infinitive
From: Michael D Martin
5g. Re: Missing infinitive
From: Garth Wallace
5h. Re: Missing infinitive
From: Charlie
5i. Re: Missing infinitive
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
6a. Re: Fully featured language
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
6b. Re: Fully featured language
From: Patrick Dunn
Messages
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1a. Volunteers wanted for experiment.
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:37 am ((PST))
I'd like a sample of monoglot English speakers for an experiment.
Volunteers will be sent an mp3 file containing a number of words in an
unfamiliar language. Their task is to listen to each word once and once
only, and then transcribe it into CXS and send the results back to me.
I'm interested in first impressions, not detailed analysis.
Please email me offlist if you wish to take part.
Pete
Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Volunteers wanted for experiment.
Posted by: "sarah louise frank" slfran...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:41 am ((PST))
slfran...@gmail.com
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Peter Bleackley <
peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd like a sample of monoglot English speakers for an experiment.
>
> Volunteers will be sent an mp3 file containing a number of words in an
> unfamiliar language. Their task is to listen to each word once and once
> only, and then transcribe it into CXS and send the results back to me. I'm
> interested in first impressions, not detailed analysis.
>
> Please email me offlist if you wish to take part.
>
> Pete
>
--
--
S.L. Frank
slfran...@gmail.com - 571/283.3395*
http://thejellyscourge.blogspot.com*
Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Exquisite corpse
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:47 am ((PST))
Anyone for a game of Conlang Exquisite Corpse?
I'll send a sentence in Khangaþyagon to somebody. Each person in turn
translates the sentence they receive, writes a new sentence that would
follow on from it, and translates the followon sentence into their own
conlang. They then send the followon sentence to the next participant.
Pete
Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Exquisite corpse
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:10 am ((PST))
I'll play. I hope I understand the rules
On 25 Nov 2010, at 15:41, Peter Bleackley <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Anyone for a game of Conlang Exquisite Corpse?
>
> I'll send a sentence in Khangaþyagon to somebody. Each person in turn
> translates the sentence they receive, writes a new sentence that would follow
> on from it, and translates the followon sentence into their own conlang. They
> then send the followon sentence to the next participant.
>
> Pete
Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Exquisite corpse
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:10 pm ((PST))
Den 25. nov. 2010 kl. 16.41 skreiv Peter Bleackley:
> Anyone for a game of Conlang Exquisite Corpse?
>
> I'll send a sentence in Khangaþyagon to somebody. Each person in
> turn translates the sentence they receive, writes a new sentence
> that would follow on from it, and translates the followon sentence
> into their own conlang. They then send the followon sentence to the
> next participant.
I'd like to play, too. Long time since we had any relay or another
sort of game here now.
LEF
Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: Exquisite corpse
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:35 pm ((PST))
I also want to play! That sounds fun and not too time consuming.
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
> Den 25. nov. 2010 kl. 16.41 skreiv Peter Bleackley:
>
> Anyone for a game of Conlang Exquisite Corpse?
>>
>> I'll send a sentence in Khangaþyagon to somebody. Each person in turn
>> translates the sentence they receive, writes a new sentence that would
>> follow on from it, and translates the followon sentence into their own
>> conlang. They then send the followon sentence to the next participant.
>>
>
> I'd like to play, too. Long time since we had any relay or another sort of
> game here now.
>
> LEF
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (5)
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2e. Re: Exquisite corpse
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:55 pm ((PST))
Sounds cool. How does the translating work? Same as for a relay (i.e.
there's vocab and grammar provided)?
On 11/25/2010 10:41 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> Anyone for a game of Conlang Exquisite Corpse?
>
> I'll send a sentence in Khangaþyagon to somebody. Each person in turn
> translates the sentence they receive, writes a new sentence that would
> follow on from it, and translates the followon sentence into their own
> conlang. They then send the followon sentence to the next participant.
>
> Pete
Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Latin/Chinese altlang
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:32 am ((PST))
On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 22:20 -0800, Dale McCreery wrote:
> Here's an article on a village in China that is
> believed (by some) to be descended from Roman Soldiers.
As it said in the article, it's far more likely that they are simply
descended from steppe nomads. I seem to remember that some of the
Xiongnu (Mongolia, Han period) had Iranian names and wasn't Genghis Khan
said to have had green eyes? Presumably he was an ethnic Turk, although
I wouldn't like to be the man who said that in Ulan Bator!
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Tolkien example
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" dirk.elzi...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:44 am ((PST))
I seem to remember that Tolkien illustrates the distinction between a short
/n/ and a long /n:/ with the words 'penny' and 'penknife' but I can't find
the passage. I thought it might be in one of the appendices in the Lord of
the Rings but repeated searches haven't turned it up. Does anyone know where
it is?
Thanks.
Dirk
Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: Tolkien example
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" ruitt...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:22 am ((PST))
In the appendices in The Silmarillion, a Google turns up:
Page 276 in http://halka.yw.sk/books/tolkien_-_silmarillion.pdf
> Consonants written twice are pronounced long; thus Yavanna has
> the long n heard in English unnamed, penknife, not the short n in
> unaimed, penny.
René
2010/11/25 Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzi...@gmail.com>:
> I seem to remember that Tolkien illustrates the distinction between a short
> /n/ and a long /n:/ with the words 'penny' and 'penknife' but I can't find
> the passage. I thought it might be in one of the appendices in the Lord of
> the Rings but repeated searches haven't turned it up. Does anyone know where
> it is?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dirk
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: Tolkien example
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:33 am ((PST))
I believe that note is written by Christopher Tolkien, not J. R. R.
2010/11/25 René Uittenbogaard <ruitt...@gmail.com>:
> In the appendices in The Silmarillion, a Google turns up:
>
> Page 276 in http://halka.yw.sk/books/tolkien_-_silmarillion.pdf
>
>> Consonants written twice are pronounced long; thus Yavanna has
>> the long n heard in English unnamed, penknife, not the short n in
>> unaimed, penny.
>
>
> René
>
> 2010/11/25 Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzi...@gmail.com>:
>> I seem to remember that Tolkien illustrates the distinction between a short
>> /n/ and a long /n:/ with the words 'penny' and 'penknife' but I can't find
>> the passage. I thought it might be in one of the appendices in the Lord of
>> the Rings but repeated searches haven't turned it up. Does anyone know where
>> it is?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dirk
>>
>
--
Andreas Johansson
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: Tolkien example
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" dirk.elzi...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:03 am ((PST))
Dank je wel, René!
Andreas, you're right; it probably was Christopher Tolkien rather than his
father. However, I was interested in the wording and not necessarily the
authorship. In Appendix E of the Lord of the Rings I found only a note that
"consonants written twice, as tt, ll, ss, nn, represent long, 'double'
consonants", which doesn't help a linguistically naive audience understand
the distinction. The passage in the Silmarillion is clearer because of the
examples that were used to illustrate the distinction between long and
short. I wanted to see how the examples were handled.
I am currently writing up a pronunciation guide for one of my projects, and
I want it to be accessible. A little while ago we had a conversation here
about the advantages and disadvantages of using statements like "X sounds
like Y in English/French/German/etc" to describe pronunciation in
constructed languages and elsewhere. There is good precedent for this sort
of thing: I find it in Sapir's grammar of Southern Paiute (and many other
grammars--I just happen to have Sapir at hand). It seems to have been the
norm during the heyday of American Structuralism. For constructed languages
that we intend others to look at, and maybe even learn, I think the
advantages of accessibility in using such descriptions outweigh any
disadvantages of imprecision that may arise.
I am also in favor of using di/trigraphs to represent speech sounds in
romanizations, if it means cutting down on the number of diacritics that
would otherwise be necessary; looking at a text bristling with diareses,
acute and grave accents, circumflexes, tildes, and ogoneks is seriously
off-putting for the linguistically naive (and me!) regardless of the
economies achieved (i.e., one-to-one mapping of phones and symbols). But
that's a rant for another day.
Dirk
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Andreas Johansson <andre...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I believe that note is written by Christopher Tolkien, not J. R. R.
>
> 2010/11/25 René Uittenbogaard <ruitt...@gmail.com>:
> > In the appendices in The Silmarillion, a Google turns up:
> >
> > Page 276 in http://halka.yw.sk/books/tolkien_-_silmarillion.pdf
> >
> >> Consonants written twice are pronounced long; thus Yavanna has
> >> the long n heard in English unnamed, penknife, not the short n in
> >> unaimed, penny.
> >
> >
> > René
> >
> > 2010/11/25 Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzi...@gmail.com>:
> >> I seem to remember that Tolkien illustrates the distinction between a
> short
> >> /n/ and a long /n:/ with the words 'penny' and 'penknife' but I can't
> find
> >> the passage. I thought it might be in one of the appendices in the Lord
> of
> >> the Rings but repeated searches haven't turned it up. Does anyone know
> where
> >> it is?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Dirk
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Johansson
>
> Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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4e. Re: Tolkien example
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:01 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:00, Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am also in favor of using di/trigraphs to represent speech sounds in
> romanizations, if it means cutting down on the number of diacritics that
> would otherwise be necessary; looking at a text bristling with diareses,
> acute and grave accents, circumflexes, tildes, and ogoneks is seriously
> off-putting for the linguistically naive (and me!) regardless of the
> economies achieved (i.e., one-to-one mapping of phones and symbols). But
> that's a rant for another day.
Also, they're apt to get omitted (see e.g. the aspiration apostrophe
in Wade-Giles, or the tone marks in W-G or Pinyin) as "unimportant".
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (6)
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4f. Re: Tolkien example
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" arth...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:41 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> looking at a text bristling with diareses,
> acute and grave accents, circumflexes, tildes, and ogoneks is seriously
> off-putting for the linguistically naive (and me!) regardless of the
> economies achieved (i.e., one-to-one mapping of phones and symbols). But
> that's a rant for another day.
Funny, I see all the diacritics as pretty, exotic decoration. Like
Christmas tree ornaments, not bristling spines. :)
--
AA
Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:12 am ((PST))
Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
So far, Txtana (my 30-day conlang) has no infinitive form of the verb.
And so far, I don't feel any need to introduce one. But in sentences
like "I like to run." (Raxo havato setu.) the sentence just didn't
feel right to me. So I modified the way those constructions are
handled, still not using an infinitive form. Instead of using two
verbs in "I like to run." Txtana now uses a passive participle form of
the first verb as if it were an adverb. So the verb "to like" (or
similar verbs like: to be able to, to be allowed to, to intend to, to
prefer to,... etc.) becomes:
raxo = like (remember 'X' is pronounced "sh")
passive = na + raxo = naraxo. (to be liked)
participle = ~e instead of ~o = naraxe. (liked-ADV/ADJ)
havato = run
Naraxe havato setu.
Is-liked run PRES-me.
I like to run. (I like running.)
liso = to permit, to allow
naliso = to be permitted, to be allowed
nalise permitted (ADJ/ADV)
Nalise havato setu.
Is-permitted run PRES-me.
I am allowed to run.
I may run.
This seems to work fine with no infinitive. Are there natlangs other
than strictly analytical ones that lack the infinitive?
--gary
Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Michael D Martin" masonhe...@verizon.net
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:04 pm ((PST))
I actually was wondering this same thing recently. My thought was that maybe
the infinitive could be replaced by the gerund. So "I like to run" becomes
"I like running" and "I am permitted to run" would be "I am permitted
running". Maybe that'd work?
... ..... ....... ... ..... ....... ... ..... .......
Michael D. Martin, Master Mason
S. W. Hackett Lodge #574
F&AM of California
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Gary Shannon
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 11:10 AM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Missing infinitive
Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
So far, Txtana (my 30-day conlang) has no infinitive form of the verb.
And so far, I don't feel any need to introduce one. But in sentences
like "I like to run." (Raxo havato setu.) the sentence just didn't
feel right to me. So I modified the way those constructions are
handled, still not using an infinitive form. Instead of using two
verbs in "I like to run." Txtana now uses a passive participle form of
the first verb as if it were an adverb. So the verb "to like" (or
similar verbs like: to be able to, to be allowed to, to intend to, to
prefer to,... etc.) becomes:
raxo = like (remember 'X' is pronounced "sh")
passive = na + raxo = naraxo. (to be liked)
participle = ~e instead of ~o = naraxe. (liked-ADV/ADJ)
havato = run
Naraxe havato setu.
Is-liked run PRES-me.
I like to run. (I like running.)
liso = to permit, to allow
naliso = to be permitted, to be allowed
nalise permitted (ADJ/ADV)
Nalise havato setu.
Is-permitted run PRES-me.
I am allowed to run.
I may run.
This seems to work fine with no infinitive. Are there natlangs other
than strictly analytical ones that lack the infinitive?
--gary
Messages in this topic (9)
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5c. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:26 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:10:07 -0800, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
No, not at all; a large number don't.
To name a few familiar examples, I think standard Arabic lacks one.
Infinitives are being or have been lost throughout the Balkan sprachbund,
through their replacement by the subjunctive: in Bulgarian, Macedonian, most
of Albanian, the loss is complete; in Modern Greek AIUI it would've been
except for the influence of the written standard, but still the old
infinitive is basically only a noun now.
Or, going the other direction, PIE is thought not to've had an infinitive;
the daughters that developed ones did so from a variety of different
case-forms of verbal nouns.
Alex
Messages in this topic (9)
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5d. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:58 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:10:07 -0800, Gary Shannon
<fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
No, although whether a language has an infinitive sometimes depends
on how the language is analyzed. For example, my new latest sketch
can be analyzed as having either 2 infinitive forms or none.
I vaguely recall trying something like your system before, which
eliminates the infinitive construction as well as the form ....
>So far, Txtana (my 30-day conlang) has no infinitive form of the verb.
>And so far, I don't feel any need to introduce one. But in sentences
>like "I like to run." (Raxo havato setu.) the sentence just didn't
>feel right to me. So I modified the way those constructions are
>handled, still not using an infinitive form. Instead of using two
>verbs in "I like to run." Txtana now uses a passive participle form of
>the first verb as if it were an adverb. So the verb "to like" (or
>similar verbs like: to be able to, to be allowed to, to intend to, to
>prefer to,... etc.) becomes:
>
>raxo = like (remember 'X' is pronounced "sh")
>passive = na + raxo = naraxo. (to be liked)
>participle = ~e instead of ~o = naraxe. (liked-ADV/ADJ)
>havato = run
>
>Naraxe havato setu.
>Is-liked run PRES-me.
>I like to run. (I like running.)
>
>liso = to permit, to allow
>naliso = to be permitted, to be allowed
>nalise permitted (ADJ/ADV)
>Nalise havato setu.
>Is-permitted run PRES-me.
>I am allowed to run.
>I may run.
>
>This seems to work fine with no infinitive. Are there natlangs other
>than strictly analytical ones that lack the infinitive?
>
>--gary
Messages in this topic (9)
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5e. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:58 pm ((PST))
On 25/11/2010 19:59, Michael D Martin wrote:
> I actually was wondering this same thing recently. My thought was that maybe
> the infinitive could be replaced by the gerund. So "I like to run" becomes
> "I like running" and "I am permitted to run" would be "I am permitted
> running". Maybe that'd work?
Well, no - because if a language has only one verbal noun it
is the infinitive! 'Gerund' is a term we give if the
language has another verbal noun, especially if it's has
restricted, different or complementary use to the infinitive.
--------------------------------
On 25/11/2010 20:24, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:10:07 -0800, Gary
> Shannon<fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
>
> No, not at all; a large number don't. To name a few
> familiar examples, I think standard Arabic lacks one.
> Infinitives are being or have been lost throughout the
> Balkan sprachbund, through their replacement by the
> subjunctive: in Bulgarian, Macedonian, most of Albanian,
> the loss is complete; in Modern Greek AIUI
Exactly! Indeed, modern Greek does not have an infinitive
in the sense that the word is normally understood. The is
an invariable bit of the verb that's used with "to have" to
form perfect tense which sometimes referred as an
'infinitive'. It's origin is of dispute.
> it would've
> been except for the influence of the written standard,
> but still the old infinitive is basically only a noun
> now.
Yes, there may an odd fossilized infinitive in a set phrase,
but for all intents and purposes it's been lost to the
spoken language
Basically, instead saying "I like running/ to run", one
says" "I like that I run."
This was discussed not so long ago on this list. I suggest
looking in the archives for more examples of languages with
no infinitives. Yep, you can easily get by with no
infinitives - and no gerunds either!
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (9)
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5f. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Michael D Martin" masonhe...@verizon.net
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:07 pm ((PST))
Oh, OK, I also wasn't sure I understood the difference between infinitive
and gerund. I was wondering if they could be combined. So what you are
saying is if my language has only one verb form that serves this semantic
function than it is by definition the infinitive?
... ..... ....... ... ..... ....... ... ..... .......
Michael D. Martin, Master Mason
S. W. Hackett Lodge #574
F&AM of California
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of R A Brown
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 12:55 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Missing infinitive
On 25/11/2010 19:59, Michael D Martin wrote:
> I actually was wondering this same thing recently. My thought was that
maybe
> the infinitive could be replaced by the gerund. So "I like to run" becomes
> "I like running" and "I am permitted to run" would be "I am permitted
> running". Maybe that'd work?
Well, no - because if a language has only one verbal noun it
is the infinitive! 'Gerund' is a term we give if the
language has another verbal noun, especially if it's has
restricted, different or complementary use to the infinitive.
Messages in this topic (9)
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5g. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:10 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:54 PM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 25/11/2010 19:59, Michael D Martin wrote:
>>
>> I actually was wondering this same thing recently. My thought was that
>> maybe
>> the infinitive could be replaced by the gerund. So "I like to run" becomes
>> "I like running" and "I am permitted to run" would be "I am permitted
>> running". Maybe that'd work?
>
> Well, no - because if a language has only one verbal noun it is the
> infinitive! 'Gerund' is a term we give if the language has another verbal
> noun, especially if it's has restricted, different or complementary use to
> the infinitive.
I thought it was only an infinitive if it lacked marking for certain
categories that are required to be marked on finite verbs, like tense
or aspect.
Messages in this topic (9)
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5h. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:34 pm ((PST))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Garth Wallace <gwa...@...> wrote:
>
> I thought it was only an infinitive if it lacked marking for certain
> categories that are required to be marked on finite verbs, like tense
> or aspect.
>
AIUI the form is an 'infinitive' because it lacks a personal designation.
Infinitives can have tense and voice: to love, to be loved, to have loved.
Other languages can show other examples. I can't think, though, of mood used
for infinitives in English.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (9)
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5i. Re: Missing infinitive
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:25 pm ((PST))
On 25 November 2010 20:10, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
>
>
As others have said before, the answer is simple: no. Plenty of languages
out there get by without an infinitive. Indeed, Modern Greek uses finite
subclauses nearly everywhere English would use an infinitive. Your example:
"I like to run" in Modern Greek would indeed be "μ' αρέσει να τρέχω": "I
like that I run" (or literally: "it pleases me that I run"). Modern Standard
Arabic doesn't have an infinitive either. Instead sentences like "I like to
run" are translated with finite subclauses as in Greek, or with a masdar, a
verbal noun that refers to the action described by the verb. It's not
considered an infinitive because it's a true noun (infinitives are usually
defective nouns with some verbal traits, like tense. Masdars are true nouns
without any verbal trait left) and it isn't derived from the verb in any
straightforward way (for most verbs).
> So far, Txtana (my 30-day conlang) has no infinitive form of the verb.
> And so far, I don't feel any need to introduce one. But in sentences
> like "I like to run." (Raxo havato setu.) the sentence just didn't
> feel right to me. So I modified the way those constructions are
> handled, still not using an infinitive form. Instead of using two
> verbs in "I like to run." Txtana now uses a passive participle form of
> the first verb as if it were an adverb. So the verb "to like" (or
> similar verbs like: to be able to, to be allowed to, to intend to, to
> prefer to,... etc.) becomes:
>
> raxo = like (remember 'X' is pronounced "sh")
> passive = na + raxo = naraxo. (to be liked)
> participle = ~e instead of ~o = naraxe. (liked-ADV/ADJ)
> havato = run
>
> Naraxe havato setu.
> Is-liked run PRES-me.
> I like to run. (I like running.)
>
> liso = to permit, to allow
> naliso = to be permitted, to be allowed
> nalise permitted (ADJ/ADV)
> Nalise havato setu.
> Is-permitted run PRES-me.
> I am allowed to run.
> I may run.
>
>
Interesting way to handle the lack of infinitive. In my Moten I went the
simple way and just use finite subclauses, as in Greek.
> This seems to work fine with no infinitive. Are there natlangs other
> than strictly analytical ones that lack the infinitive?
>
>
As others said, plenty of them :) . I'm not even sure languages with an
infinitive are the majority!
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: Fully featured language
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:49 pm ((PST))
Hallo!
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:09:36 +0000, Ben Collier wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if there had been an attempt to create a language
> which incorporated as many linguistic features, tenses, declensions
> etc. as possible, to enable much greater a range of both specificities
> and subtleties in speech.
>
> Has anything like that bee tried?
This is called a "kitchen sink conlang", and it has already been tried:
http://www.ithkuil.net/
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Fully featured language
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:34 pm ((PST))
Yeah, it's also called Lojban. :)
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:09:36 +0000, Ben Collier wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I was wondering if there had been an attempt to create a language
> > which incorporated as many linguistic features, tenses, declensions
> > etc. as possible, to enable much greater a range of both specificities
> > and subtleties in speech.
> >
> > Has anything like that bee tried?
>
> This is called a "kitchen sink conlang", and it has already been tried:
>
> http://www.ithkuil.net/
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (5)
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