There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: A birthday list?
From: Tony Harris
1b. Re: A birthday list?
From: Wyatt Berka
1c. Re: A birthday list?
From: Larry Sulky
1d. Re: A birthday list?
From: Charlie
1e. Re: A birthday list?
From: R A Brown
1f. Re: A birthday list?
From: Douglas Koller
1g. Re: A birthday list?
From: Roger Mills
1h. Re: A birthday list?
From: Lars Finsen
1i. Re: A birthday list?
From: Philip Newton
1j. Re: A birthday list?
From: David Peterson
1k. Re: A birthday list?
From: <deinx nxtxr>
2a. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: David McCann
2b. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Charlie
2c. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Roger Mills
2d. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2e. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Andreas Johansson
2f. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Philip Newton
2g. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Philip Newton
2h. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: j_mach_w...@shared-files.de
2i. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: Charlie
2j. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: <deinx nxtxr>
2k. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: <deinx nxtxr>
2l. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
From: <deinx nxtxr>
3a. Re: Nonsense Languages
From: Matthew Martin
4. low price store
From: Joey, aka HiroM2K
Messages
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1a. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:12 am ((PST))
Likánsá ddá álváyósá shthávyets!
On 12/05/2010 06:39 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> As today is my 41st birthday, I ask you how about assembling a list
> of conlangers' birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into
> the calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Wyatt Berka" wyl...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:13 am ((PST))
On 12/5/2010 5:39 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> As today is my 41st birthday, I ask you how about assembling a list
> of conlangers' birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into
> the calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Vittaju cødissairiÅan din! (lit. Happiness on your birthday!)
:)
Wyatt
--
The Satchian Language
http://www.wybe.us/satchian/
Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:17 am ((PST))
nastikei okoi!
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> As today is my 41st birthday, I ask you how about assembling a list
> of conlangers' birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into
> the calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>
Messages in this topic (13)
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1d. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:31 am ((PST))
bája dzeen-áámr-am!
happy birth-day-ACC.sg
Charlie
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@...> wrote:
>
> Hallo!
>
> As today is my 41st birthday, I ask you how about assembling a list
> of conlangers' birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into
> the calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>
Messages in this topic (13)
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1e. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 6:26 am ((PST))
ἴθι Ïο γενέθλιο εá½Ïá½»Ïει.
On 05/12/2010 11:39, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> As today is my 41st birthday,
A mere youngster ;)
> I ask you how about assembling a list of conlangers'
> birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into the
> calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
How about it, the rest of you?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (13)
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1f. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 6:49 am ((PST))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jörg Rhiemeier" <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 6:39:34 AM
Subject: A birthday list?
>Hallo!
>As today is my 41st birthday, I ask you how about assembling a list
>of conlangers' birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into
>the calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/.
Se zdídalths techetneketh la öçkek nü!
Kou
Messages in this topic (13)
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1g. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:21 am ((PST))
lekramon minda!
lero+kamon minda
day+born happy
The list is a good idea.
Roger
--- On Sun, 12/5/10, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de> wrote:
> From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>
> Subject: A birthday list?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 6:39 AM
> Hallo!
>
> As today is my 41st birthday, I ask you how about
> assembling a list
> of conlangers' birthdays? We could, for instance,
> enter them into
> the calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>
Messages in this topic (13)
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1h. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:54 am ((PST))
Den 5. des. 2010 kl. 12.39 skreiv Jörg Rhiemeier:
> As today is my 41st birthday,
Fezti gritmi du da suttunu!
LEF
Messages in this topic (13)
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1i. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:59 pm ((PST))
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 15:23, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 05/12/2010 11:39, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>
>> I ask you how about assembling a list of conlangers'
>> birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into the
>> calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> How about it, the rest of you?
If we do so, I'd recommend entering them on a separate calendar so
that they can be kept separate from other kinds of dates there. (Such
as real-life conlang-related activities or concultural information
such as "new year" or the like.)
I'm not quite sure what the attraction would be of having a list of
conlangers' birthdays but I'm not opposed to it.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (13)
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1j. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 2:34 pm ((PST))
On Dec 5, 2010, at 1â57 PM, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 15:23, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 05/12/2010 11:39, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>>
>>> I ask you how about assembling a list of conlangers'
>>> birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into the
>>> calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>>
>> How about it, the rest of you?
>
> If we do so, I'd recommend entering them on a separate calendar so
> that they can be kept separate from other kinds of dates there. (Such
> as real-life conlang-related activities or concultural information
> such as "new year" or the like.)
We've been discussing it, and right now we're thinking about including a
calendar that's separate from the main calendar at calendar.conlang.org just as
you suggested here. This will be a calendar that people can add their birthdays
too, but if you don't want to see it, you can turn it off and still get the
regular conlang calendar announcements. Hopefully it should be set up by the
end of the year.
We're also thinking about maybe using the exchange.conlang.org site for
registering birthdays and other things. More on that later.
> I'm not quite sure what the attraction would be of having a list of
> conlangers' birthdays but I'm not opposed to it.
I'm pretty much of the same opinion, but, eh.
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (13)
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1k. Re: A birthday list?
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:52 pm ((PST))
On 12/5/10 9:23 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>> I ask you how about assembling a list of conlangers'
>> birthdays? We could, for instance, enter them into the
>> calendar at http://calendar.conlang.org/ .
>
> How about it, the rest of you?
Not that I'm opposed to it the idea per se, but in this age of identity
theft I prefer not to openly post information like that on the web where
anyone can see it.
Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:22 am ((PST))
On Sat, 2010-12-04 at 22:52 -0500, Herman Miller wrote:
> And I'm still unsatisfied with the way I write
> the voiced lateral fricative as "ḽ" (l with a wedge below), but I can't
> think of a suitable digraph. I can't use "dl" since /dl/ is a valid
> cluster (e.g. dlôź "month"), and "ll" exists in compounds (e.g. trillaz
> "Year of the Wren").
Catalan distinguishes the digraph <ll> from the double <l·l>.
Alternatively, you can have an apostrophe as in <ng> /Å/ and <nâg> /Åg/
(or <ngâ> and <ng>, according to taste).
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:02 am ((PST))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmil...@...> wrote:
>
> I've gone back and forth on how to represent the sounds of my
> languages. Although many of them (like Jarda) have their own writing
> systems, it's tedious and error-prone to use those for the actual
> language documentation. I almost always use some form of Roman-
> alphabet representation. Lately I've been leaning in the direction of
> diacritics, which have the advantage of being able to create "ad hoc"
> letters for unusual phonemes. It's also good for series of related
> sounds, e.g. using a comma below for palatal consonants. One problem
> is that diacritics don't work well for all letters (e.g., above tall
> letters like "l" or below letters with descenders like "g"). Another
> is that words can become cluttered with diacritics and awkward to
> read when both consonants and vowels can have them.
(I'm snowed in today.)
I've been "agonizing" over the Senjecan orthography for a number of years now.
The recent discussion on diacritics has prompted me to look at it yet one more
time. I think I've finally settled on a Latin orthography.
It seems to me that there are four ways to go, or a combination of them, when
devising an orthography using an alphabet that doesn't have enough graphemes:
1) use diacritics,
2) use digraphs or trigraphs,
3) borrow from another alphabet,
4) create original graphemes.
Senjecas has 24 phonemes, 12 pairs of voiced/unvoiced phonemes. There are not
enough graphemes in the Latin alphabet. My goal is to make it as intelligible
as possible, yet have a bit of exoticness just for the fun of it. Senjecas is
an `Urkultur', predating any human alphabets. Some of them are easier to work
with than others, but since I can only type with the Latin alphabet, that's the
one I have been most concerned about. I have created a history of how and when
the various graphemes were introduced.
The POAs are all forward. In a grid the rows are labial, dental, alveolar and
palatal. And the consonants in columns are stops, fricatives, and sonorants.
The following familiar graphemes are pronounced as in English:
labial: p/b, -/-, -/m
dental: t/d, þ/ð, -/l
alveolar: -/-, s/z, -/n
palatal: -/g, -/-, -/-
labial: <f> and <v> are bilabial, /\f/ and /B/, not labiodental; the unvoiced
labial sonorant /m_0 / was a poser. At first I used the IPA <ɱ> (m-hook),
but recently went to <ṁ> (m with dot above).
dental: the unvoiced dental lateral sonorant /l_0/ I treated in a similar
fashion, <ŀ> (l with middle dot).
alveolar: /ts/ and /dz/ were a problem. Fortunately, <c> was available for
/ts/. Originally I used <ć> (c-acute) and matched it with <ź>
(z-acute) but, in light of recent discussion, I wanted to get rid of
diacritics. <c> would work fine, but what to do about /dz/? I finally went to
#3 above and borrowed <з> (ze) from the Cyrillic alphabet. I don't like
to use graphemes that are too far from an accepted phoneme (does that make
sense?), but I discovered that the Khalka dialect of Mongolian uses it in this
way. I have paired <r> with <n>, but <r> is not really a sonorant. It is
/4_0/, but I think it pairs reasonably well with /n/.
palatal: for some reason I don't like <k>, so I've used the small capital
<ĸ> called `kra' from the Kalaallisut language. The fricatives were easy,
<x> for /C/ and <q> for /j\/. I actually use <ϙ> (qoppa) for this latter,
but <q> is easily substituted. And finally, I continue to use <ȝ> (yogh)
for /j/. /j_0/ was a problem and I originally used <ħ> (h-stroke) until I
realized that there was no need for the diacritic and now I use plain old <h>.
There are six vowels. The regular ones are a, e, i, o, and u. But I also
needed /Q/. I went originally with <ø> (o-stroke), but have recently changed
that to <ɔ> (open o).
There are three "weak" vowels used for euphony: /E/, /I/, and /U/. I really
wanted to us the <ı> (dotless i) for /I/, but couldn't find two other
vowel graphemes that would go well with it. I finally settled on <ë>, <ï>, and
<ü>. What do you think of <ɘ> (reversed e) for <ë> and <ɯ> (turned
m) for <ü>?
An acute accent over a vowel marks high pitch and a grave low pitch. A cedilla
under a consonant (or an apostrophe above) indicates palatalization. A caron
above or under a consonant indicates labialization. When working in Wikifrath,
I use <ĭ> and <ŭ> respectively.
I had to change from Comic Sans MS to Microsoft Sans Serif to do all this.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:26 am ((PST))
--- On Sun, 12/5/10, David McCann <da...@polymathy.plus.com> wrote:
> Herman Miller wrote:
> > And I'm still unsatisfied with the way I write
> > the voiced lateral fricative as "ḽ" (l with a wedge
> below), but I can't
> > think of a suitable digraph. I can't use "dl" since
> /dl/ is a valid
> > cluster (e.g. dlôź "month"), and "ll" exists in
> compounds (e.g. trillaz
> > "Year of the Wren").
>
> Catalan distinguishes the digraph <ll> from the
> double <l·l>.
> Alternatively, you can have an apostrophe as in <ng>
> /Å/ and <nâg> /Åg/
> (or <ngâ> and <ng>, according to taste).
>
Tagalog and some other PI langs. used to distinguish /N/ from /Ng/ but I forget
which was which....I think /N/ was "ng" and /Ng/ was "ñg" but it might have
been the other way round. Since the Spanish departed and we took over and
nowadays, it's just "ng" and "ngg"
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:12 pm ((PST))
Hallo!
I have repeatedly been thinking about revising the transcription
of Old Albic, but each time I decided that it was not worth the
trouble, so I kept the system I have. The phoneme inventory,
in CXS, is this:
Consonants /p t k b d g p\ T x s h m n N l r w j/
Vowels /a e i o ø u y/, each can be short, long with thrusting
tone, or long with slipping tone.
The transcription I use for them is:
Consonants |p t c b d g ph th ch s h m n ng l r v j|
Vowels |a e i o ø u y|, short unmarked, thrusting tone with
acute (á é í etc.), slipping tone with circumflex (â ê î etc.).
I once considered changing |ph th ch| into |f þ x| and |ng|
also into some sort of special letter, but that would mean
having to change loads of stuff I already have on the language,
and would not have made typing easier. I once used n-tilde
for /N/, but that just felt wrong.
So I decided to leave everything the way it is. As for the
/N/ vs. /Ng/ problem, the latter is simply |ngg| in Old Albic
- not very elegant, but logical. Also, /n/ never occurs before
/g/ - when it gets there, it is assimilated to /N/. Similarly,
/p t k/ never occur before /h/, but coalesce with that into
/p\ T x/ (those phonemes diachronically evolved from aspirated
stops).
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (14)
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2e. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:33 pm ((PST))
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Charlie <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> /j_0/ was a problem and I originally used <ħ> (h-stroke) until I realized
> that there was
> no need for the diacritic and now I use plain old <h>.
>
I'm not quite sure if that's more or less perverse than my use of <h>
for voiced /j/ in Meghean.
Romanized Meghean's only foray into diacritics is <ñ> for /N/. I could
use <q>, as I believe some Polynesian languages do, but don't like the
look of it. (Other unused Latin letters are <f j k v w x y z>, but any
of those for a velar nasal is just too weird.)
It has some moderately horrible di- and trigraphs, such as <ghe> for
/Z/ in the name itself - /me'Zan/ - but they all correspond to di- and
trigraphs in the native orthography: the romanization is one-to-one.
--
Andreas Johansson
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
Messages in this topic (14)
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2f. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:56 pm ((PST))
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 21:31, Andreas Johansson <andre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Romanized Meghean's only foray into diacritics is <ñ> for /N/. I could
> use <q>, as I believe some Polynesian languages do, but don't like the
> look of it.
I think Fijian uses it, not for /N/, but rather for /Ng/.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2g. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:57 pm ((PST))
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 17:44, Charlie <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've used the small capital <ĸ> called `kra' from the Kalaallisut language.
I think it's usually called "(Western) Greenlandic language" in
English. (And the kra was from a former orthography; it's no longer
used in the current orthography, which now writes /q/ as - surprise,
surprise - <q>.)
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2h. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "j_mach_w...@shared-files.de" j_mach_w...@shared-files.de
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 3:09 pm ((PST))
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:44:01 -0000, Charlie wrote:
> It seems to me that there are four ways to go, or a combination of
> them, when devising an orthography using an alphabet that doesn't
> have enough graphemes:
> 1) use diacritics,
> 2) use digraphs or trigraphs,
> 3) borrow from another alphabet,
> 4) create original graphemes.
To me, 3) has become more and more important. It is the only way how
diacritics or multigraphs or special letters will feel natural to me.
> The fricatives were easy, <x> for /C/ and <q> for /j\/. I actually
> use <Ï> (qoppa) for this latter, but <q> is easily substituted. And
> finally, I continue to use <È> (yogh) for /j/. /j_0/ was a problem
> and I originally used <ħ> (h-stroke) until I realized that there was
> no need for the diacritic and now I use plain old <h>.
I also have a problem I used to solve with <ħ> (h-stroke). The
phonology is like this:
/p t k/
/f s S x h/
/pf ts tS kx/
/m n N/
/v\ l r/
/w j/
I used to do this:
<p t c>
<f s š (s-caron) ħ (h-stroke) h>
<pf z Ä (c-caron) k>
<m n g>
<v l r>
<w j>
The problem was the representation of /x/. I didn't like <È> (h-
caron), even though that would fit in with the other caron
combinations. I didn't like <x>. But I wasn't happy with <ħ>, either.
Then I tried <h> for /x/ and <'> for /h/. That worked quite well since
there is no double /h/, but clusters of stop + /h/. However, <'> just
didn't feel like a real letter. So I finally decided that I might
endure <x> for /x/, and this is what I do now:
<p t k>
<f s Å¡ (s-caron) x h>
<pf ts tš (s-caron) kx>
With regard to /N/, I now sometimes wonder whether I should go for the
more usual digraph <ng> (or plain <n> before <k>). This would be
possible since there is no opposition between short and long /N/. It
is always long when between two voiced sounds, but short otherwise.
But I now prefer a strict iconicity with regard to length: Short
sounds represented with single letters, long sounds with two letters
(as in the affricates that are always long). That's why I still prefer
<g> for /N/.
The vowel system is more straightforward:
/i y u/ - <i y u>
/I Y U/ - <ì ỳ ù> (grave accents)
/E 9 O/ - <é (e-acute) ö o>
/a A/ - <ä a>
/@/ - <e>
The acute on <é> (e-acute) for /E/ is dropped in <ee> for long /E:/,
since /@/ is always short. The reason why I rather mark /E/ than /@/
is that /@/ is much more frequent.
> There are six vowels. The regular ones are a, e, i, o, and u. But
> I also needed /Q/. I went originally with <ø> (o-stroke), but have
> recently changed that to <É> (open o).
Unless you use <y> otherwise: Couldn't you use <y> for /u/, <u> for /
o/ and <o> for /Q/?
> There are three "weak" vowels used for euphony: /E/, /I/, and /U/.
> I really wanted to us the <ı> (dotless i) for /I/, but couldn't find
> two other vowel graphemes that would go well with it. I finally
> settled on <ë>, <ï>, and <ü>. What do you think of <Ç> (reversed
> e) for <ë> and <ɯ> (turned m) for <ü>?
I like <ë ï ü> better. But what do you mean by "used for euphony"?
If that means they're just allophones, then don't mark them.
Incidently, non-phonological writing systems may also be interesting
(but perhaps less so in romanizations). In a dedicated script, the
above vowel system is notated with only four different signs, more or
less like this:
/i y u/ <I Y U>
/I Y U/ <I Y U>
/E 9 O/ <A Y U>
/a A/ <A A>
/@/ <A>
Additionally, the <I> sign may represent the diphthongs /ei/ and /i@/,
the <Y> sign the diphthongs /9y/ and /y@/, and the <U> sign the
diphthongs /Ou/ and /u@/. Vowel length, which is phonemic in all
vowels but /@/, is not marked either. Only at the ends of words, some
additional differentiation is achieved by employing the signs for /
j/, /w/ and /h/ as a kind of matres lectionis.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (14)
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2i. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:06 pm ((PST))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, j_mach_w...@... wrote:
>
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:44:01 -0000, Charlie wrote:
>
> > There are six vowels. The regular ones are a, e, i, o, and u.
> > But I also needed /Q/. I went originally with <ø> (o-stroke),
> > but have recently changed that to <É"> (open o).
>
> Unless you use <y> otherwise: Couldn't you use <y> for /u/, <u>
> for /o/ and <o> for /Q/?
I'll give this some thought.
> > There are three "weak" vowels used for euphony: /E/, /I/,
> > and /U/. I really wanted to us the <ı> (dotless i) for /I/, but
> > couldn't find two other vowel graphemes that would go well with
> > it. I finally settled on <ë>, <ï>, and <ü>.
>
> But what do you mean by "used for euphony"? If that means they're
> just allophones, then don't mark them.
3-consonant clusters are not permitted. When this would occur in compound
words, an <ë> is inserted: ááȝras (morning) + stéres (star) =
ààȝrëstéres (morning star).
When a word that ends in a palatal consonant is joined to a word beginning with
a consonant, <ï> is inserted: góļes (doe) + léþros (leather) = gòlïléþros,
doeskin.
When a word that ends in a labial consonant is joined to a word beginning with
a consonant, <ü> is inserted: kířos (saddle) + mákos (bag) = -kìrümákos
(saddle-bag).
Charlie
Messages in this topic (14)
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2j. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:19 pm ((PST))
On 12/4/10 10:52 PM, Herman Miller wrote:
> As I've been going over the Jarda documentation, I've been wondering
> whether it might be better to use digraphs or extra letters in some
> cases where I'm currently using diacritics. In particular, I don't see
> any reason not to use "gh" for [É£] instead of "Ä" (it's too easy to
> confuse "Ä" with "Ä£"). And I'm still unsatisfied with the way I write
> the voiced lateral fricative as "ḽ" (l with a wedge below), but I can't
> think of a suitable digraph. I can't use "dl" since /dl/ is a valid
> cluster (e.g. dlôź "month"), and "ll" exists in compounds (e.g. trillaz
> "Year of the Wren").
>
> I've gone back and forth on how to represent the sounds of my languages.
I've done the same. Deini started from an a priori script which has now
been deprecated to "Classic Deini" status in favor of a Romanization
that I've changed a few times already, but looks like I've finally made
up my mind on that. I sort of resolved the issues you are facing by
using diacritic, but having alternatives for situations where Unicode
isn't available, and there is a prescribed order of preference for the
alternatives where there's more than one.
Normal Alternate ASCII
ð [ð] dd dd
É [É] ë x
ǧ [ɣ] q q
Ç° [dÊ] jj jj
Å [Å] ñ nn
Å¡ [Ê] ss ss
þ [θ] tt tt
ž [Ê] zz zz
Even in SASXSEK I toyed a bit with the orthography though the design
goals demanded full ASCII compatibility, and I also wanted to maintain a
1:1 phoneme:grapheme system so I gave a couple of letters unique uses: X
[É] and Q [Å].
I've always had mixed feelings about diacritics vs. digraphs and
reassigning letters to new uses. Each on has its benefits. Keeping
withing the 7-bit ASCII range eliminates almost all machinability
hassles but sometimes 26 letters isn't enough, and some don't like
reassigning letters. I personally find diacritics easier to read, but
digraphs are much easier to deal with when typing. Which I choose tends
to depend on the language's goals. SASXSEK is an auxlang so it needs
maximum compatibility with all type of machinery. Deini is just the
opposite. It's a personal language and I prefer the esthetic qualities
of the diacritics, though the machinability issues did make me partially
scrap the idea of a native script.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2k. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:36 pm ((PST))
On 12/5/10 11:44 AM, Charlie wrote:
> (I'm snowed in today.) I've been "agonizing" over the Senjecan
> orthography for a number of years now. The recent discussion on
> diacritics has prompted me to look at it yet one more time. I think
> I've finally settled on a Latin orthography.
I know how it goes. The tinkering just doesn't stop. I'm tired of
tinkering with Deini orthography so I've basically decided it's
baselined so I can move on with the lexicona and finalizing the grammar.
> It seems to me that there are four ways to go, or a combination of
> them, when devising an orthography using an alphabet that doesn't
> have enough graphemes: 1) use diacritics, 2) use digraphs or
> trigraphs, 3) borrow from another alphabet, 4) create original
> graphemes.
I may be convinced to use digraphs in some situations but trigraphs just
really put me off. Now borrowing from another alphebet is something I
played with early on when creating Euromniskript, which merges Roman,
Cyrillic and Greek scripts into one.
> Senjecas has 24 phonemes, 12 pairs of voiced/unvoiced phonemes.
> There are not enough graphemes in the Latin alphabet. My goal is to
> make it as intelligible as possible, yet have a bit of exoticness
> just for the fun of it.
> ....
That's where I stand on Deini. I want it familiar, but not too familiar.
I want it exotic enough to have its own character yet familiar enough
to be comfortable to me and others who may want to use it.
> The POAs are all forward.
> ....
> alveolar: /ts/ and /dz/ were a problem. Fortunately,<c> was
> available for /ts/. Originally I used<ć> (c-acute) and matched
> it with<ź> (z-acute) but, in light of recent discussion, I
> wanted to get rid of diacritics.<c> would work fine, but what to do
> about /dz/? I finally went to #3 above and borrowed<з> (ze)
> from the Cyrillic alphabet. I don't like to use graphemes that are
> too far from an accepted phoneme (does that make sense?), but I
> discovered that the Khalka dialect of Mongolian uses it in this way.
> I have paired<r> with<n>, but<r> is not really a sonorant. It is
> /4_0/, but I think it pairs reasonably well with /n/.
I'm favoring haceks in Deini: Ä [tÊ], ĵ [dÊ]. Not sure what I'd do
with [ts] or [dz] though since none of my conlangs have either as a
distinct phoneme.
> palatal: for some reason I don't like<k>, so I've used the small
> capital<ĸ> called `kra' from the Kalaallisut language. The
> fricatives were easy,<x> for /C/ and<q> for /j\/. I actually
> use<ϙ> (qoppa) for this latter, but<q> is easily substituted.
> And finally, I continue to use<ȝ> (yogh) for /j/. /j_0/ was a
> problem and I originally used<ħ> (h-stroke) until I realized
> that there was no need for the diacritic and now I use plain old<h>.
Maybe an apostrophe as some Russian Romanizations use for the soft-sign?
> There are six vowels. The regular ones are a, e, i, o, and u. But I
> also needed /Q/. I went originally with<ø> (o-stroke), but have
> recently changed that to<ɔ> (open o). There are three "weak"
> vowels used for euphony: /E/, /I/, and /U/. I really wanted to us
> the<ı> (dotless i) for /I/, but couldn't find two other vowel
> graphemes that would go well with it. I finally settled on<ë>,<ï>,
> and<ü>. What do you think of<ɘ> (reversed e) for<ë>
> and<ɯ> (turned m) for<ü>?
Why not <y> for /I/ ?
>....
> I had to change from Comic Sans MS to Microsoft Sans Serif to do all
> this.
I'm using Helvetica for just about everything these days. I'll switch
to Arial for Windless machines though. Both fonts are reasonably complete.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2l. Re: Diacritics vs. extra letters vs. digraphs
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:48 pm ((PST))
On 12/5/10 3:31 PM, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Charlie<caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> /j_0/ was a problem and I originally used<ħ> (h-stroke) until I realized
>> that there was
>> no need for the diacritic and now I use plain old<h>.
>>
>
> I'm not quite sure if that's more or less perverse than my use of<h>
> for voiced /j/ in Meghean.
I use <c> for /x/ in Deini. It may seem a bit strange, but looks a lot
better than <ħ> when reading the primarily Germanic and Romance
vocabulary. /x/ generally occurs in clusters because two stops are not
phonotactically allowed in Deini so a cluster like /kt/ in the source
language would be rendered /xt/ <ct> in Deini.
> Romanized Meghean's only foray into diacritics is<ñ> for /N/. I could
> use<q>, as I believe some Polynesian languages do, but don't like the
> look of it.
I like <q> for /Å/. It's fairly easy to get accustomed to in lower case
form. I use it like that in SASXSEK but it's not the idea was
plagiarized from Ceqli.
I can't recall running across any Polynesian languages that have that
usage (that doesn't mean there aren't any).
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Nonsense Languages
Posted by: "Matthew Martin" matthewdeanmar...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:09 am ((PST))
Hopelandic is the mumbling, humming noise that they sang with the song before
they had started writing real lyrics. I'm sure they were vocalizing just to get
a
feel for what the composition they were working on would sound like. Then they
decided that it sounded good as is. I doubt this qualify as a "language" in
any
sense of the word.
Now on the otherhand, Uscaniv is a reasonably complete conlang written by an
Icelander, Kári Emil Helgason, and makes a small appearance in Conlang the
Movie.
http://cals.conlang.org/language/uscaniv/
Matthew Martin
Messages in this topic (3)
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4. low price store
Posted by: "Joey, aka HiroM2K" hiro_m...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2010 3:37 pm ((PST))
http://to.ly/8JRm
Messages in this topic (1)
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