There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: New language universal!
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: New language universal!
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1c. Re: New language universal!
From: John Erickson
2a. Re: Number Creation
From: Adam Walker
2b. Re: Number Creation
From: Tony Harris
2c. Re: Number Creation
From: MorphemeAddict
2d. Re: Number Creation
From: Roger Mills
2e. Re: Number Creation
From: Roger Mills
2f. Re: Number Creation
From: J. Snow
2g. Re: Number Creation
From: Matthew Boutilier
2h. Re: Number Creation
From: Padraic Brown
2i. Re: Number Creation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2j. Re: Number Creation
From: yuri
3a. Re: OT:Shameless self-promotion
From: MorphemeAddict
4a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: MorphemeAddict
5a. Re: a tale of two vowels
From: Matthew Boutilier
5b. Re: a tale of two vowels
From: Daniel Prohaska
6.1. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Logan Kearsley
7. Conlanging Seminar @ Swarthmore
From: Leland Kusmer
8. Preaspiration Notation
From: Brian
9a. No Songs To Sing
From: J. Snow
9b. Re: No Songs To Sing
From: MorphemeAddict
9c. Re: No Songs To Sing
From: psykieki...@gmail.com
9d. Re: No Songs To Sing
From: Roger Mills
9e. Re: No Songs To Sing
From: Charles W Brickner
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: New language universal!
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:03 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:09:36 -0800 David Peterson wrote:
> [...]
>
> Anyway, the thrust of your e-mail seems to be this:
>
> On Feb 3, 2012, at 7:34 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
>
> > It's funny how the reaction that the word "universal" engenders for a
> > large
> > segment of the membership here is "nosirree Bob! no-one can tell _me_
> > what
> > to do!" In contrast talk of "naturalism" doesn't seem to do that. But
> > what
> > are universals but statements of certain combinations of properties that,
> > empirically (at least for the good ones), go against naturalism?
>
> Absent of a historical explanation, a linguistic universal is nothing
> but "lorem ipsum" for a conlanger—or at least for one working on a
> naturalistic conlang. It's something like coming up with a list of
> common motifs in American novels. It might be interesting to someone
> studying American novels, but of what use is it to an American novelist?
> If the novelist is doing good work, whether or not what they're doing
> matches an observable pattern is immaterial. Conversely, a novelist
> doing bad work isn't going to improve the quality of their novel by
> having it match up as nearly as possible with a list of properties
> common to novels in his/her genre.
Very much so. Proposed linguistic universals can be used as a
guideline what is likely to occur in a language and what not,
and violating too many of them in a language that purports to be
naturalistic is a sign that you are probably doing something wrong;
but they are not laws that may not be broken at any cost. With
most proposed universals, counterexamples have been found; and what
regards this particular case, the data base is strongly skewed
towards European languages, and there may well be cluster of
languages with 'need' but not 'have' hiding somewhere in New
Guinea or wherever.
> In short, caring one way or another about a linguistic universal is
> likely indicative of a flawed methodology, when it comes to creating
> a naturalistic language. (Well, unless your criterion for naturalism
> is, "How well does this match up with the list of linguistic universals
> linguists have named...?")
Yes. I once was censured for breaking a "universal" in a conlang;
it soon turned out that there was a natlang that broke that very
"universal" and pretty much did what I did in my conlang, and not
one that was particularly hard to find.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: New language universal!
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 8:54 am ((PST))
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:02 AM, taliesin the storyteller <
taliesin-conl...@nvg.org> wrote:
> In the January 2012 issue of Linguistic Inquiry there's an interesting
> (free!) paper titled "Having 'Need' and Needing 'Have'" by Stephanie Harves
> and Richard S. Kayne.
>
> Their claim:
>
> If you have a transitive verb for "need", you also have a transitive verb
> for "have".
>
> They divide the world's languages into 1) those with and those without a
> transitive verb for "need" and 2) those with and those without a
> transitive verb for "have". It turns out that there are languages who have
> a transitive verb for "have" that lack a transitive verb for "need", but
> not the other way around.
>
> The paper is short and not very hard to read:
>
> http://www.mitpressjournals.**org/doi/pdf/10.1162/LING_a_**00076<http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/LING_a_00076>
>
>
> t.
>
I'm not really convinced with the arguments about Russian. For Russian does
have a transitive "have" verb "imet'", though, of course, in most cases the
intransitive construction is used.
Messages in this topic (15)
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1c. Re: New language universal!
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 1:35 pm ((PST))
Isn't part of the fun of conlanging experimenting with unusual grammar anyway?
Not that this particular variation is all THAT interesting, but in general, I
mean.
Messages in this topic (15)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:04 am ((PST))
I d say 1, 5 and 8 are from Indonesian or another MP lang. And 3, 4,
7, 10 and 11 and definitely IE, while 2 and 9 probably are but have
strange final consonants. But 6 and 12 elude me. Adam
On 2/4/12, yuri <yur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 February 2012 20:12, Matthew Turnbull wrote:
>> Whatever you come up with! Some people make them up, some
>> people base them off other words in the language. Sometimes they
>> follow a pattern sometimes they don't.
>
> sāt, dūŋ, drī, kwat, lyīm, on, ŝab, lap, ŋāt, teX, lef, zūf
>
> Some of the above have IE roots (see if you can recognise them).
> Some are heavily mutilated borrowings from non-IE languages.
>
> Feel free to borrow them if you hit a mental block trying to coin your own.
>
> Yuri
>
Messages in this topic (16)
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2b. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:54 am ((PST))
Another a priori example (Alurhsa):
dwi, sílá, lhúvá, elká, ksònye, zílyev, nestá, zlúr, vlórhye, delsá
No intentional borrowing from anything (although delsá might look like
it and could be a semi-conscious borrowing from IE languages). The
system goes on with simplified suffixes on delsá for the teens, and
prefixes for the tens (delsád, delsás, delsálh... sedelsá, lhúdelsá,
eldelsá...), and has numbers for each power of 10 (delsá, delselká,
denelsá, deçálá, dóvírá, dóvenyá, etc.) instead of going tens, hundreds,
thousands, ten-thousands, hundred-thousands, millions, etc. Just a
different take on how to count in big numbers.
And you can do things like come up with primitive words, then morph them
into what a daughter/granddaughter language (in this case Tariatta)
might have:
ti, si, lu, aka, oni, sal, sua, ur, lori, addi
And then we have another unrelated a priori language (Ku Tal):
mesh, naz, vud, mak, sosh, paz, yot, zan
Ku Tal is base 8, not base 10, so our decimal 9 and 10 would (probably)
be zan mesh and zan naz respectively. I haven't actually developed Ku
Tal all that much, so that might not be "correct".
So you can see, numbers can be pretty much whatever comes to mind. What
I try to do when coming up with any new words, phrases, etc. where I'm
unsure how to proceed is to close my eyes, sit back, and imagine a group
of native speakers of my language sitting around a
table/campfire/whatever and just chatting about the subject I need a
word for, and see what "feels" right for how they would say it. Or if
you're really into that method, "ask" them how they would say it.
Hardly scientific, but it works for me.
On 02/04/2012 02:12 AM, Matthew Turnbull wrote:
> Whatever you come up with! Some people make them up, some people base
> them off other words in the language. Sometimes they follow a pattern
> sometimes they don't.
>
> On 2/4/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Any creation rules?
>> Nicole Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Patrick Dunn"<pwd...@gmail.com>
>> To:<conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: Number Creation
>>
>>
>>> Well, it already does. It's Greek.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews<
>>> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While I work out my audio cas off-list with another member, how do I
>>>> create numbers for Yardish? I know ten ten is deca. I know it's a side,
>>>> so
>>>> I figure if it can work for a shape's number of sides, then it can work
>>>> for
>>>> a number.
>>>> Nicole Andrews
>>>>
>>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>>>> Budding novelist
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
>>> order from Finishing Line
>>> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>>> and
>>> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>>>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 8:23 am ((PST))
For Splat (formerly Zbansut) I created 12 arbitrary CV morphemes for 1..10,
100, 1000. Some were unusual, but I've come to like them for that reason.
ɣa ŋo ni fa ke la si bu že do θu me
stevo
On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Tony Harris <t...@alurhsa.org> wrote:
> Another a priori example (Alurhsa):
>
> dwi, sílá, lhúvá, elká, ksňnye, zílyev, nestá, zlúr, vlórhye, delsá
>
> No intentional borrowing from anything (although delsá might look like it
> and could be a semi-conscious borrowing from IE languages). The system
> goes on with simplified suffixes on delsá for the teens, and prefixes for
> the tens (delsád, delsás, delsálh... sedelsá, lhúdelsá, eldelsá...), and
> has numbers for each power of 10 (delsá, delselká, denelsá, deçálá, dóvírá,
> dóvenyá, etc.) instead of going tens, hundreds, thousands, ten-thousands,
> hundred-thousands, millions, etc. Just a different take on how to count in
> big numbers.
>
> And you can do things like come up with primitive words, then morph them
> into what a daughter/granddaughter language (in this case Tariatta) might
> have:
>
> ti, si, lu, aka, oni, sal, sua, ur, lori, addi
>
> And then we have another unrelated a priori language (Ku Tal):
>
> mesh, naz, vud, mak, sosh, paz, yot, zan
>
> Ku Tal is base 8, not base 10, so our decimal 9 and 10 would (probably) be
> zan mesh and zan naz respectively. I haven't actually developed Ku Tal all
> that much, so that might not be "correct".
>
> So you can see, numbers can be pretty much whatever comes to mind. What I
> try to do when coming up with any new words, phrases, etc. where I'm unsure
> how to proceed is to close my eyes, sit back, and imagine a group of native
> speakers of my language sitting around a table/campfire/whatever and just
> chatting about the subject I need a word for, and see what "feels" right
> for how they would say it. Or if you're really into that method, "ask"
> them how they would say it. Hardly scientific, but it works for me.
>
>
>
> On 02/04/2012 02:12 AM, Matthew Turnbull wrote:
>
>> Whatever you come up with! Some people make them up, some people base
>> them off other words in the language. Sometimes they follow a pattern
>> sometimes they don't.
>>
>> On 2/4/12, Nicole Valicia
>> Thompson-Andrews<goldyemoran@**gmail.com<goldyemo...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Any creation rules?
>>> Nicole Andrews
>>>
>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>>> Budding novelist
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Patrick Dunn"<pwd...@gmail.com>
>>> To:<conl...@listserv.brown.edu**>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Number Creation
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, it already does. It's Greek.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews<
>>>> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> While I work out my audio cas off-list with another member, how do I
>>>>> create numbers for Yardish? I know ten ten is deca. I know it's a side,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I figure if it can work for a shape's number of sides, then it can work
>>>>> for
>>>>> a number.
>>>>> Nicole Andrews
>>>>>
>>>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>>>>> Budding novelist
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
>>>> for
>>>> order from Finishing Line
>>>> Press<http://www.**finishinglinepress.com/**
>>>> NewReleasesandForthcomingTitle**s.htm<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>>>> >
>>>> and
>>>> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/**Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/**
>>>> 1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&**qid=1324342341&sr=8-2<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>
>>>> >.
>>>>
>>>>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:02 am ((PST))
From: Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>
I d say 1, 5 and 8 are from Indonesian or another MP lang.
RM agree on 1,5, also 6 (*@n@m, > ono in Polynesia IIRC); it took me a while to
figure out 8-- aha, Indonesian. delapan !!
Adam: And 3, 4, 7, 10 and 11 and definitely IE, while 2 and 9 probably are but
have
strange final consonants. But 6 and 12 elude me. Adam
RM agreed; re 6 see above; 2 could be IE/Sanskrit? or MP (both with odd
finals); 9 could be a truncation of Javanese etc. (MP) saNa + new final.
The Kash numbers mesa l, ro 2, ha 4, nim 5, fanu 8, sana 9 are all based on
various Indonesian regional languages :-)
On 2/4/12, yuri <yur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> sāt, dūŋ, drī, kwat, lyīm, on, ŝab, lap, ŋāt, teX, lef, zūf
>
> Some of the above have IE roots (see if you can recognise them).
> Some are heavily mutilated borrowings from non-IE languages.
>
> Feel free to borrow them if you hit a mental block trying to coin your own.
>
> Yuri
>
----- Original Message -----
Messages in this topic (16)
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2e. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:10 am ((PST))
From: Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com>
Adam: And 3, 4, 7, 10 and 11 and definitely IE, while 2 and 9 probably are but
have
strange final consonants. But 6 and 12 elude me. Adam
new RM: come to think of it; 11 is IE but Germanic (isn't it _elf_ in some
lang.? or even < Eng. eleven); and zu:f could be a smush of German zwolf?
Messages in this topic (16)
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2f. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "J. Snow" sonarsn...@live.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:38 am ((PST))
In Sironu, I based the numbers 0-10 off of English and built nearly the entire
system
off of that.
zo, on, du, ri, fo, fa, si, s�, et, na, t�n.
from 10 it goes: ont�n, dut�n, rit�n, fot�n, fat�n, etc., then 20, 25, 30, 40,
50
etc. go tendu, tendu-fa, tenri, tenfo, tenfa...
I'm curious to see what other kinds of number systems people come up with.
Messages in this topic (16)
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2g. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:45 am ((PST))
>
> new RM: come to think of it; 11 is IE but Germanic (isn't it _elf_ in some
> lang.? or even < Eng. eleven); and zu:f could be a smush of German zwolf?
>
yeah, "lef zūf" are reminiscent of "elf zwölf"...
ŝab for 7 could conceivably be akin to semitic...arabic *sab*ʿ*a*, akkadian
*sebe*, hebrew *sheva**ʿ* ...
... were it not already speculated that *indo-european* stole this number!
(or the other way around.)
basically, nicole, you can call numbers whatever you want (there are no
rules), and even if you're concerned about the diachronic plausibility of
your language (which, believe me, not everybody is), the number-words are
often the most ancient and inviolate lexemes in a language, and in
naturally evolving languages the case is not particularly common that a
number-word (especially small numbers) can convincingly be shown to have
been derived from another non-number word.
but if it's originality you're looking for, and you don't want to just
throw a bunch of made-up syllables at numbers 1 through 10, you may
consider exploring non-decimal number systems. a conworld where the main
sentient species has six fingers instead of ten would not be expected to go
...8, 9, 10, 11, ... but perhaps something like ...4, 5, 6, 11... or ...4,
5, 10, 11... (depending on what your species thinks of zero, i guess).
one more thing to think about is how, if at all (and they don't have to),
numbers can change depending on what you're using them for. in arabic for
instance you say *'arba**ʿ* for 4 of a feminine thing and *'arba*ʿ*a(h*) for
4 of a masculine thing. in older englishes, "twain" meant 2 for a masculine
thing but "two" meant 2 for a feminine or neuter thing (in old english, *
twēgen* and *twā* respectively). also consider devising how to say things
like 2nd, 3rd, 10th ... 1/2, 1/4, etc.
wesaþ hāle
matt
On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Adam: And 3, 4, 7, 10 and 11 and definitely IE, while 2 and 9 probably are
> but have
> strange final consonants. But 6 and 12 elude me. Adam
>
>
> new RM: come to think of it; 11 is IE but Germanic (isn't it _elf_ in some
> lang.? or even < Eng. eleven); and zu:f could be a smush of German zwolf?
>
Messages in this topic (16)
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2h. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:37 pm ((PST))
--- On Sat, 2/4/12, J. Snow <sonarsn...@live.com> wrote:
> In Sironu, I based the numbers
> 0-10 off of English and built nearly the entire system
> off of that.
>
> zo, on, du, ri, fo, fa, si, sé, et, na, tén.
>
> from 10 it goes: ontén, dutén, ritén, fotén, fatén,
> etc., then 20, 25, 30, 40, 50
> etc. go tendu, tendu-fa, tenri, tenfo, tenfa...
>
> I'm curious to see what other kinds of number systems people
> come up with.
Talarian:
Ordinary counting numbers are base twelve: 0, safra, tlaram; 1, çatla; 2,
rilo; 3, hohoc; 4, limtellor; 5, pamtra; 6, rimtelloc; 7, matellor; 8,
pretellor; 9, amtelloc; 10, rapamtra; 11, hacra; 12, himtroc; 13, çatla-wa-
himtroc; 14, rilo-wa-himtroc; etc. Multiples of twelve are: 24, rintroc;
36, hotroc; 48, limtroc; 60, pamtroc; 72, rimtroc; 84, matroc; 96,
partroc; 108, hamtroc; 120, rapamtroc; 144, maharaç; 1728, sahaçram.
In mathematics and philosophy numbers are base ten: 1, ecas (C.), ecar
(N.); 2, twwo; 3, trayas (C.), trayan (N.); 4, cattâror; 5, pamtras; 6,
ççaç; 7, saptas; 8, açtor; 9, nâfa; 10, lâsa; 100, satem.
The ordinary numbers are borrowed from an entirely different language
family, though I'm not sure which one, while the mathematical numbers are
borrowed from some Sanskrit influenced language along the Indo-Buddho /
Judeo-Helladic corridor of the Silk Road countries.
The ordinary numbers seem to show some odd patterns: 4, 7 & 8 all share the
component -tellor; 10 seems to be a compound of 2x5.
The only number native to Talarian is sam- (half), and though it can serve
as a number, it is usually found in compounds (e.g., samwasas = ill, "half-
healthy").
Some philologers aver that pamtra is also native, based on its
correspondence with Rumnian (pompe) and Theotish (fomf, fyyfe, etc), but it
is actually part of that other language's numbers.
Mentolatian:
1, syam; 2, du; 3, der; 4, quadur; 5, punc; 6, sano; 7, saffo; 8, oggun;
9, novun; 10, dus. I think fairly straight forward Aryan derivation.
Anian:
1, ptang; 2, utrap; 3, mraram; 4, csar; 5, ptemsa; 6, hhnac; 7, rsanam;
8, utcsar; 9, ibmrel; 10, prangsa; 11, herhem; 12, mracsar.
Loucarian:
0, sifra; 1, êwas; 2, douo; 3, trais; 4, tethris; 5, pumpe; 6, hescis; 7,
heptis; 8, octo; 9, nawis; 10, dessas; 100, heccaton; 1000, milia; 10000,
muriadis. An interesting note here: cardinal numbers are notated using a
form of Indic figures; ordinal numbers are notated using Greek letters.
Paging Janko Gorenc!!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
2i. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:09 pm ((PST))
Hi guys, this great info. Thanks.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Padraic Brown" <elemti...@yahoo.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Number Creation
> --- On Sat, 2/4/12, J. Snow <sonarsn...@live.com> wrote:
>
>> In Sironu, I based the numbers
>> 0-10 off of English and built nearly the entire system
>> off of that.
>>
>> zo, on, du, ri, fo, fa, si, sé, et, na, tén.
>>
>> from 10 it goes: ontén, dutén, ritén, fotén, fatén,
>> etc., then 20, 25, 30, 40, 50
>> etc. go tendu, tendu-fa, tenri, tenfo, tenfa...
>>
>> I'm curious to see what other kinds of number systems people
>> come up with.
>
> Talarian:
>
> Ordinary counting numbers are base twelve: 0, safra, tlaram; 1, çatla; 2,
> rilo; 3, hohoc; 4, limtellor; 5, pamtra; 6, rimtelloc; 7, matellor; 8,
> pretellor; 9, amtelloc; 10, rapamtra; 11, hacra; 12, himtroc; 13,
> çatla-wa-
> himtroc; 14, rilo-wa-himtroc; etc. Multiples of twelve are: 24, rintroc;
> 36, hotroc; 48, limtroc; 60, pamtroc; 72, rimtroc; 84, matroc; 96,
> partroc; 108, hamtroc; 120, rapamtroc; 144, maharaç; 1728, sahaçram.
>
> In mathematics and philosophy numbers are base ten: 1, ecas (C.), ecar
> (N.); 2, twwo; 3, trayas (C.), trayan (N.); 4, cattâror; 5, pamtras; 6,
> ççaç; 7, saptas; 8, açtor; 9, nâfa; 10, lâsa; 100, satem.
>
> The ordinary numbers are borrowed from an entirely different language
> family, though I'm not sure which one, while the mathematical numbers are
> borrowed from some Sanskrit influenced language along the Indo-Buddho /
> Judeo-Helladic corridor of the Silk Road countries.
>
> The ordinary numbers seem to show some odd patterns: 4, 7 & 8 all share
> the
> component -tellor; 10 seems to be a compound of 2x5.
>
> The only number native to Talarian is sam- (half), and though it can serve
> as a number, it is usually found in compounds (e.g., samwasas = ill,
> "half-
> healthy").
>
> Some philologers aver that pamtra is also native, based on its
> correspondence with Rumnian (pompe) and Theotish (fomf, fyyfe, etc), but
> it
> is actually part of that other language's numbers.
>
> Mentolatian:
>
> 1, syam; 2, du; 3, der; 4, quadur; 5, punc; 6, sano; 7, saffo; 8, oggun;
> 9, novun; 10, dus. I think fairly straight forward Aryan derivation.
>
> Anian:
>
> 1, ptang; 2, utrap; 3, mraram; 4, csar; 5, ptemsa; 6, hhnac; 7, rsanam;
> 8, utcsar; 9, ibmrel; 10, prangsa; 11, herhem; 12, mracsar.
>
> Loucarian:
>
> 0, sifra; 1, êwas; 2, douo; 3, trais; 4, tethris; 5, pumpe; 6, hescis; 7,
> heptis; 8, octo; 9, nawis; 10, dessas; 100, heccaton; 1000, milia; 10000,
> muriadis. An interesting note here: cardinal numbers are notated using a
> form of Indic figures; ordinal numbers are notated using Greek letters.
>
> Paging Janko Gorenc!!
>
> Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
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2j. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "yuri" yur...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:37 pm ((PST))
On 5 February 2012 07:45, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
>>
>> new RM: come to think of it; 11 is IE but Germanic (isn't it _elf_ in some
>> lang.? or even < Eng. eleven); and zu:f could be a smush of German zwolf?
>>
>
> yeah, "lef zūf" are reminiscent of "elf zwölf"...
>
> ŝab for 7 could conceivably be akin to semitic...arabic *sab*ʿ*a*, akkadian
> *sebe*, hebrew *sheva**ʿ* ...
> ... were it not already speculated that *indo-european* stole this number!
> (or the other way around.)
Matt, Adam and RM have got it sorted.
sāt - from Indonesian satu
dūŋ - from both IE and Indonesian dua. I felt like throwing ŋ on the end.
drī - IE
kwat - IE
lyīm - from MP lima
on - from Māori ono
ŝab - semitic (I was think about shabbat)
lap - from delapan
ŋāt - IE with the initial n morphed into a ŋ and a t thrown on the end.
teX - IE with the final k turn into a kh because I like gutteral sounds.
lef - IE (germanic)
zūf - a germanic munge because it felt good.
An interesting coincidence about sāt and ŋāt:
The stem of a verb, followed by -āt gives the word for a doer of that
verb, like -er in english (teach, teacher; employ, employer; etc)
and s- is the stem for the verb to be, so sāt as well as meaning one
can also mean "be-er" or "that which is" so the concept of unity is
bound up with the concept of being - and this was all by accident.
I had named the numbers first, and much later, having forgotten the
names of the numbers, made -āt the equivalent to english -er.
Funny how things work out.
Yuri
Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Re: OT:Shameless self-promotion
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 8:30 am ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This message includes no conlang-rlated material, only the injunction that
> you go buy a copy of the March issue of Asimov's and celebrate with me the
> contents of p. 79, my first published fiction.
>
> Adam who is still floating
>
Congratulations!
I bought the magazine as enjoined, which I would not have done otherwise.
I'm not much of a poetry reader, so on the content I can't really say much.
I'm not even sure I liked it.
I can say that finding two and a half typos in so few lines was
disappointing.
But hey! You got published!
stevo
Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 8:34 am ((PST))
On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:01 PM, Billy JB <ad...@caudimordax.org> wrote:
> Oh god, I want more! I just found some free time to look through my mail
> and wow! I have to say, I'm honestly quite hooked on this novel idea. I
> eagerly await more!
>
> Excellent work she produced, this Palmer.
>
> +1
stevo
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Sweet! I've been wanting to write up the grammar for Miapimoquitch using
> a
> > similar conceit for quite a while, but now I've been scooped. Masterfully
> > done.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:59 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I wanted to take a moment to let everyone know about an incredible find
> > > that basically dropped into our laps at Fiat Lingua.
> > >
> > > Last November, we got an e-mail at l...@conlang.org from Madeline
> Palmer.
> > > She said she didn't know, but thought we might be interested in the
> > > attached file for our website. The title of the e-mail was "Draconic
> > > Language". Initially, I dismissed it—in fact, I'll admit I didn't even
> > look
> > > at it (I thought it was an "analysis" of the Dragon language from
> > Skyrim),
> > > and may not have if Don Boozer hadn't alerted me and said it was worth
> a
> > > look.
> > >
> > > And so I gave it a look. The document she sent to us was a *ONE HUNDRED
> > > AND SEVENTY page grammar and lexicon* of a language she called
> > Srínawésin—a
> > > language she's been working on for about twenty years. And the form of
> > the
> > > grammar was rather unique. Rather than being a simple description, the
> > > language is presented as a linguistics graduate student's notes on a
> > > document she found in the old dissertation file of the linguistics
> > > department at NYU. The entire work is a grammar presented as a work of
> > > fiction.
> > >
> > > Over the coming months, we're going to publish the full grammar of
> > > Srínawésin at Fiat Lingua, the first installment of which has gone up
> > today
> > > [1]. As far as I know, Madeline hasn't had any connection to any of the
> > > conlanging communities, so this language has really kind of dropped out
> > of
> > > the sky. I invite you to give it a look (and hopefully I can encourage
> > > Madeline to join the Conlang list).
> > >
> > > Oh, and a Fiat Lingua-related note: While the Srínawésin grammar will
> > have
> > > about eight or nine installments, we will publish articles in the
> interim
> > > if we feel they're timely, or just to break things up a bit.
> > >
> > > [1] http://fiatlingua.org/?p=125
> > >
> > > David Peterson
> > > LCS President
> > > presid...@conlang.org
> > > www.conlang.org
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: a tale of two vowels
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:09 am ((PST))
>
> In Wichita there are
> /i i:/ [i ~ I ~ e], ditto long
> /e e:/ [E ~ &]
> /a a:/ [a ~ Q]
> as well as
> [o o:]
> which are "probably not phonemic", as they are usually contractions of
> /awa/
> and like sequences (in only a few cases will speakers not accept some
> uncontracted form).
>
> Saanich has a similar system. There's
> /i/ [i], or lowered & centralised near uvulars & glottals
> /e/ [e], or lowered & centralised near ditto but rarely so far as [E]
> /a/ from [6] near palatals through [a] to [A] near uv & glot
> /@/ lax and central but all over the place.
> plus some /u/ in transparent borrowings.
>
great, thanks a lot. nice to know there's *something* out there that
approximates this extent of imbalance. even if i've never heard of saanich
before. wichita and saanich aren't related at all, are they? my knowledge
of native languages is minimal...
But what's the problem if you give it a perfectly reasonable diachronic
> explanation? Considering that your front low [{:] gets raised, I may
> suggest
> that low back [A:] also may be raised to [O:] or [O] (which should be quite
> common, take for instance Welsh _bra:teres_ > _broder_) in certain
> positions
> (e.g. before labials), which then somehow merges with the /u/ phoneme.
>
yeah, fair enough. i didn't even think of slicing off an allophone of [A:]
and sending it upwards to merge with [u:] (which could vary in height from
speaker to speaker as low as [o:], with all that open real estate back
there; classical nahuatl supposedly had this).
my reason for this requirement is basically that i have a *q that has a
kind of breaking effect when it precedes (or also follows?) front vowels,
and before it merges with velar *k it leaves a trace of backness behind in
the form of a kind of velar onglide, which eventually fortifies into a
uvular fricative or approximant. so in a word for "sword":
*qa:n- > *qM\a:n- > *kM\a:n- > kRa:n-
or something like that. but the difficulty is/was that *{: or *a:, whatever
that nuclear long vowel is to be, should originate as some allophone of
/A/, since the short root for this and similar words looks like *qAn,
because ... well, that's just how the quadripartite vowel system of the
proto-language works. anyway, i think if i say that that velar onglide
arises not before [+front] vowels but rather before [-back] vowels, i'd be
safe with having a long /a:/ that isn't so far up as [{:]; maybe something
like [6:]; thus preserving *some* kind of long "ah" sound in the language
without sacrificing the important uvular-velar thing.
It does, doesn't it? Remind you of Proto-Frisian as well? Where GMC. /ai/
> monophthongized and then split into */æː/ and */ɑː/.
>
is this the same split as in OE, with PGmc *ai > *ɑː, that merges with PGmc
*a: > *æː when umlauted?
e.g. PGmc *dailiz "part" > Pre-OE *dɑːli > OE dǣl
or are you referring to something else? i've not yet been enlightened in
frisian...and i don't know the extent to which i-mutation was a factor.
wesaþ ealle hāle
matt
On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Daniel Prohaska <dan...@ryan-prohaska.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 5:04 AM, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 3 Feb 2012, at 10:44, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> >>
> >>> You could introduce a phonemic split, e.g. if /ɑː/ > /aː/ > /æː/ is the
> >> general development, you could say that /ɑː/ > /ɒː/ in certain
> >> environments, maybe before velars and nasals (or whatever you choose…).
> >>
> >> Sounds familiar.
> >>
> >>
>
> Michael,
> It does, doesn't it? Remind you of Proto-Frisian as well? Where GMC. /ai/
> monophthongized and then split into */æː/ and */ɑː/.
> Dan ;-)
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: a tale of two vowels
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 2:08 pm ((PST))
On Feb 4, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
>>
>
> It does, doesn't it? Remind you of Proto-Frisian as well? Where GMC. /ai/
>> monophthongized and then split into */æː/ and */ɑː/.
>>
>
> is this the same split as in OE, with PGmc *ai > *ɑː, that merges with PGmc
> *a: > *æː when umlauted?
No, though i-umlaut comes into play as well where development to the front
vowel is concerned.
Gmc *ai regularly became */æː/ (cf. OF ‹e›) and *au became */ɑː/.
Before /x p b m w/ and /a/ in the following syllable PrF */æː/ retracted and
fell in with */ɑː/.
There's much more on this as the partial merger of */æː/ and */ɑː/ went through
several stages. See Voyles' "Early Germanic Grammar" for reference.
> e.g. PGmc *dailiz "part" > Pre-OE *dɑːli > OE dǣl
> or are you referring to something else?
Yes, see above.
> i've not yet been enlightened in
> frisian...and i don't know the extent to which i-mutation was a factor.
It was two, but a phoneme split independent of i-mutation was also at work.
Dan
>
> wesaþ ealle hāle
> matt
>
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Daniel Prohaska <dan...@ryan-prohaska.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 5:04 AM, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3 Feb 2012, at 10:44, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You could introduce a phonemic split, e.g. if /ɑː/ > /aː/ > /æː/ is the
>>>> general development, you could say that /ɑː/ > /ɒː/ in certain
>>>> environments, maybe before velars and nasals (or whatever you choose…).
>>>>
>>>> Sounds familiar.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Michael,
>> It does, doesn't it? Remind you of Proto-Frisian as well? Where GMC. /ai/
>> monophthongized and then split into */æː/ and */ɑː/.
>> Dan ;-)
>>
Messages in this topic (9)
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6.1. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:45 pm ((PST))
On 25 January 2012 02:34, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Logan Kearsley wrote:
>
>> I do not
>> dispute that _nado_ is a head. In this construction, it makes perfect
>> sense that _nado_ is the head, just like _nuzhno_ and _dolzhno_ would
>> be, and takes the infinitive verb as its subject. However, it has this
>> interesting feature that it can only be associated with infinitive
>> subjects. This is not a matter of semantic selection, because it's
>> synonym _nuzhno_ can be used with both verbs and nouns. Thus, it's a
>> purely syntactic feature, which indicates that there are two different
>> kinds of predicates available in Russian.
>
> Sorry to drop into this conversation out of the blue, but I have a very
> specific question, and it has to do with terminology. Above, you say it's not
> a matter of "semantic selection". Here I think you used "semantic" to refer
> to grammatical category (i.e. if both fall under the category "adverb", they
> should behave identically, but they don't, so it's not a property of
> grammatical categories). You concluded, then, that it's a purely syntactic
> feature. In my mind, it seems like you mixed these two terms up, but it could
> be because we're using them differently.
>
> Syntax purportedly pays no heed to semantics. Thus "I ate the apple" is just
> as valid as "Microphones ate the disenfranchisement". Presumably if this were
> a syntactic issue, both adverbs would be treated the same. If they're not
> treated the same, it means that the lexical item itself is feeding the syntax
> extra information (e.g. there's actually "adverb class A" and "adverb class
> B", and "adverb class B" doesn't work in the configuration set up by the
> syntax). As a result, I'd say the distinction here is purely lexical, rather
> than syntactic.
Gosh, I forgot about this draft for a while! Probably a non-issue by
now, but I like closure.... It is entirely possible that I was using
terminology in a backwards or otherwise confused fashion. What I had
in mind was the concept of selectional features on lexical items that
do not have any influence on the semantics of the lexical item, but do
influence syntax. Some selectional features reference syntactic
categories ("this verb requires a noun as an object, not any other
syntactic category") and others reference semantic features ("This
verb requires an animate subject"). _Nado_ clearly has selectional
features that influence syntax as part of its lexical definition, and
it thus remains to determine whether those features select for items
in other syntactic positions based on semantic content or based purely
on syntactic category. The fact that _nuzhno_ has pretty much the
exact same meaning but can be used with an additional syntactic
category tells me that the difference is in syntactic selectional
features of _nado_, not semantic selection features. So, it is in my
mind a syntactic issue because the two lexical items that are
semantically synonymous have different syntactic behavior, and thus
seem to indicate the existence of two different syntactic categories.
Does that make sense? Did I make myself clear?
-l.
Messages in this topic (62)
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7. Conlanging Seminar @ Swarthmore
Posted by: "Leland Kusmer" lelandp...@thypyramids.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:51 pm ((PST))
Hello, all!
A very long time ago, on Google+, Sai prompted me to share details of
the conlanging seminar that I took at Swarthmore College last spring.
I'm finally getting around to doing so.
The seminar in question was taught by Visiting Assistant Professor
Nathan Sanders [0] in the spring of 2011; it was extremely
well-received [1], and he's teaching it again this spring. With his
permission, I'm sharing his teaching materials for the semester I took
the class, including the syllabus, his lecture note handouts, and all
homework assignments, at the link below:
http://thypyramids.com/share/Sanders_Conlang_Seminar.zip
The class attempted to accomplish three different goals, and did so
with varying degrees of success:
1) From the standpoint of pure linguistics, it attempted to be an
introduction to the current state of linguistic typology, sort of a
classroom-exploration of WALS-type data. From this standpoint, I feel
it was very successful.
2) It looked at the history of conlanging, including motivations,
successes, and failures of major conlangs through history, primarily
following Arika Okrent's _In the Land of Invented Languages_ and
focusing primarily on Klingon and Esperanto. On this count, it was
reasonably successful, though it left out too much mention of the
contemporary conlanging community.
3) It tried to serve as a sort of artistic workshop for the conlangs
being developed by students. From this standpoint, it was less than
successful, but mostly for reasons outside of the professor's control.
(Primarily the fact that the class was much too large to permit real
workshopping. I have word that enrollment this semester has been
capped at a more reasonable number, which I feel will make the class
significantly more successful overall.)
>From my perspective, the class was hugely enjoyable and provided the
outside motivation to move forward on a conlanging project that I'd
had on the backburner for several years. I felt that my role in the
class was consistently to be the ambassador from the contemporary
conlanging community and the LCS, trying as much as possible to bring
up relevant examples from more recent conlangs.
Fiat lingua,
-Leland
[0] http://sanders.phonologist.org/
[1] to the point of being affectionately referred to by all involved
as "Fun 101"
Messages in this topic (1)
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8. Preaspiration Notation
Posted by: "Brian" altriu...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 6:42 pm ((PST))
What is the CXS notation for preaspirated consonants, if there is one?
I do a lot of conlanging on my phone and it doesn't support the IPA so I use
CXS a lot but I haven't been able to find a standard way to show preaspiration.
Would it just be [h_] or something?
Thanks for your help!
Brian
Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. No Songs To Sing
Posted by: "J. Snow" sonarsn...@live.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:46 pm ((PST))
As I continue to develop Sironu, I'd like to go into the realm of poetry and
songs as
well. However, the way my conlang has developed, rhyming would be nearly
impossible, and I'm looking for other alternatives. I understand there are
other ways
besides rhyming to express song and poetry, but don't know much about poetry
and
thus am pretty confused. Any ideas? Examples?
Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: No Songs To Sing
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:59 pm ((PST))
Rhyme is all about patterns. Rhyme, per se, is the pattern of final sounds
of final words. Poetry can involve any other kind of pattern as well, or
even no pattern at all (blank verse). So vowel sequences, initial sounds of
words (alliteration), vowel type (e.g., front vs. back), consonant type -
any of these can be used as the basis of poetry, but of course, it's the
content that matters, and the patterns are simply wrapping.
stevo (who is not an enthusiast of poetry)
On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 10:46 PM, J. Snow <sonarsn...@live.com> wrote:
> As I continue to develop Sironu, I'd like to go into the realm of poetry
> and songs as
> well. However, the way my conlang has developed, rhyming would be nearly
> impossible, and I'm looking for other alternatives. I understand there are
> other ways
> besides rhyming to express song and poetry, but don't know much about
> poetry and
> thus am pretty confused. Any ideas? Examples?
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
9c. Re: No Songs To Sing
Posted by: "psykieki...@gmail.com" psykieki...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 8:12 pm ((PST))
Also you can go into number of syllables, like a haiku, or you could make other
such patterns. If you're language is tonal (like my latest project) you could
do a tone wave which is basically having a predetermined pattern of tones
(rising, mid, low, low rising, repeat etc). Just some ideas :)
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Snow
Sent: 05/02/2012, 2:46 pm
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: No Songs To Sing
As I continue to develop Sironu, I'd like to go into the realm of poetry and
songs as
well. However, the way my conlang has developed, rhyming would be nearly
impossible, and I'm looking for other alternatives. I understand there are
other ways
besides rhyming to express song and poetry, but don't know much about poetry
and
thus am pretty confused. Any ideas? Examples?
Messages in this topic (5)
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9d. Re: No Songs To Sing
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:21 pm ((PST))
From: MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com>
Rhyme is all about patterns. Rhyme, per se, is the pattern of final sounds
of final words. Poetry can involve any other kind of pattern as well, or
even no pattern at all (blank verse). So vowel sequences, initial sounds of
words (alliteration), vowel type (e.g., front vs. back), consonant type -
any of these can be used as the basis of poetry, but of course, it's the
content that matters, and the patterns are simply wrapping.
-------------------------------------------
All of that, yes. Plus assonance-- matching vowels in, say, the two final
syllables, so that e.g. -ano would "assonate" with -ako. Then there are
"masculine" vs. "feminine" rhymes-- masc. rhymes end a line with
stressed-unstressed syllables, Fem. rhymes end the line with a stressed
syllable (often a good place for a monosyllabic word)-- these two usually in
combination with one of the meters.
Then there are the various meters, that can even be combined. (You may already
know this)
--iambic ta-TA (most of shakespeare, and probably the most common in Engl.
poetry)
--trochaic TA-ta
--anapest TA-ta-ta (much classical Latin and Greek poetry AIUI)
--dactylic ta-ta-TA (favored in Kash poetry along with a trochee or two at the
end)
Some languages even just go by syllable count, never mind where the word
accents fall....
Messages in this topic (5)
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9e. Re: No Songs To Sing
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 5:14 am ((PST))
You might also consider parallelism, a device used in Hebrew poetry. There
are several variations. If you are interested I'd be glad to tell you of
them.
Psalem 37:1-2
Be not vexed over evildoers,
Nor jealous of those who do wrong;
For like grass they quickly wither,
And like green herbs they wilt.
Psalm 22:13
Many bullocks surround me;
The strong bulls of Bashon encircle me.
Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
And between your offspring and hers;
He will strike at your head
While you strike at his heel.
I will be using parallelism when I attempt some poetry in Senjecas.
Senjecas is not conducive to rhyme.
Charlie
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of J. Snow
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 10:46 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: No Songs To Sing
As I continue to develop Sironu, I'd like to go into the realm of poetry and
songs as well. However, the way my conlang has developed, rhyming would be
nearly impossible, and I'm looking for other alternatives. I understand
there are other ways besides rhyming to express song and poetry, but don't
know much about poetry and thus am pretty confused. Any ideas? Examples?
Messages in this topic (5)
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