There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. OT: English (EFL) usage help needed
From: BPJ
1b. Re: OT: English (EFL) usage help needed
From: Tony Harris
1c. Re: OT: English (EFL) usage help needed
From: BPJ
2. Daine "singing boards" (was: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3a. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Patrick Dunn
3b. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Matthew Turnbull
3c. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Charlie Brickner
3d. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Logan Kearsley
3e. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3f. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Alex Fink
3g. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: MorphemeAddict
3h. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3i. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Adam Walker
3j. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
From: Scott Hlad
4a. Outdoors
From: Charlie Brickner
4b. Re: Outdoors
From: Tony Harris
4c. Re: Outdoors
From: Sam Stutter
4d. Re: Outdoors
From: Carsten Becker
4e. Re: Outdoors
From: Ben Scerri
4f. Re: Outdoors
From: J. M. DeSantis
4g. Re: Outdoors
From: Alex Fink
4h. Re: Outdoors
From: Roger Mills
5a. bird names
From: Adam Walker
5b. Re: bird names
From: Scott Hlad
6.1. Re: Days of the week
From: Elliott Lash
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. OT: English (EFL) usage help needed
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:56 am ((PST))
Note: this post is not meant to start a YAEUT; I'm genuinely
seeking help on how to express myself in what to me is a foreign
language!
I'm writing something discussing heading levels in a document,
similar to HTML <h1>...<h6>. Now I need to know what is properly
called the highest and lowest level: is <h1> the highest and <h6>
the lowest, or is it the other way around?
/bpj
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: OT: English (EFL) usage help needed
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:03 am ((PST))
In terms of web design, <h1> is the top level heading, i.e. the highest,
and things work downward to <h6> which is the lowest.
In terms of document headings, yes, I would start with level 1 as
highest, and then the higher the number the lower the level. Or perhaps
more accurately, the higher the number the more indented/imbedded the
heading level.
Does that help?
On 02/15/2012 09:56 AM, BPJ wrote:
> Note: this post is not meant to start a YAEUT; I'm genuinely
> seeking help on how to express myself in what to me is a foreign
> language!
>
> I'm writing something discussing heading levels in a document,
> similar to HTML <h1>...<h6>. Now I need to know what is properly
> called the highest and lowest level: is <h1> the highest and <h6>
> the lowest, or is it the other way around?
>
> /bpj
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: OT: English (EFL) usage help needed
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:08 am ((PST))
On 2012-02-15 16:02, Tony Harris wrote:
> In terms of web design, <h1> is the top level heading, i.e. the
> highest, and things work downward to <h6> which is the lowest.
>
> In terms of document headings, yes, I would start with level 1 as
> highest, and then the higher the number the lower the level. Or
> perhaps more accurately, the higher the number the more
> indented/imbedded the heading level.
>
> Does that help?
Yes! Thanks for prompt answer!
/bpj
>
>
> On 02/15/2012 09:56 AM, BPJ wrote:
>> Note: this post is not meant to start a YAEUT; I'm genuinely
>> seeking help on how to express myself in what to me is a foreign
>> language!
>>
>> I'm writing something discussing heading levels in a document,
>> similar to HTML <h1>...<h6>. Now I need to know what is properly
>> called the highest and lowest level: is <h1> the highest and <h6>
>> the lowest, or is it the other way around?
>>
>> /bpj
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Daine "singing boards" (was: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:19 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:14:14 -0800 Padraic Brown wrote:
> The Yardish can always do what the Daine of the Holy Hills (just west of
> Westmarche in the Eastlands) did a very long time ago:
>
> Back in those days, only Teor lived in the Eastlands, and some Daine came
> out of the West and settled along the verges of Teorish lands. The Daine
> didn't have a writing system, but became aware that the Teor did in fact
> write things in theirs. There was a seer among the Daine called Sayaquorye
> who became determined to devise a writing system for her language. As is
> the case with many Daine that have othersight, Sayaquorye lacked vision
> in this world -- perhaps not even the perception of red that a sigted
> person gets when he closes his eyes and looks towards a light source. And
> though she had a kind of "awareness of shape and location" of things in
> space, she had no inner concept of things written or drawn on flat
> surfaces.
>
> Anyway, she goes off in the woods to meditate on this and comes back after
> a spell and asks for some wooden boards and some carving tools. What she
> ends up with is a bunch of boards with vinelike carvings and leaves and
> berries and so forth -- symbols essentially, carved into the wood. Folks
> weren't too sure about this at first, but became far more receptive after
> they understood that it wasn't just pretty carvings she had made but a way
> of encoding thoughts.
>
> Her writing system took off, and even now, some forty thousand years later,
> the Daine of Darenallië of the Holy Hills still use the "singing boards"
> to record stories and read from them later. By tradition and training,
> readers don't look at the carvings with their eyes, but always close their
> eyes and look at the boards with their fingers, following the story's flow
> with their hands.
>
> As one ancient story teller recounted to a curious Teor historian who had
> asked about the symbols that were "plainly visible" on the wood: "they're
> just squiggles! Vines and flowers. You can't see it, but we have to follow
> with our hands. The story sort of flies from the board and through our
> fingers to our hearts. Then we can sing what it's saying."
Charming! This is one of the best stories about the invention
of a writing system I have ever heard or read, and a unusual
scriptorial culture to boot. Rock'n'roll!
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:00 am ((PST))
Why wouldn't it? Braille makes sense to me; I can even puzzle some of it
out visibly. I can't read by touch, of course, not having learned to do
so, but why not a writing system that is entirely tactile? It'd be fresh
and interesting.
As far as the complexity of language thing, I think Peter is pulling your
leg slightly. There are no experts on conlanging, for one thing, and for
another, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get all the rules of Bahasa Indonesia
on two sheets of paper, and the paradigms alone of Greek would take up
about ten pages.
--Patrick
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I create a writing system that looks like braille, it won't make sense
> to anyone visually or probably tactically reading it, will it?
>
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "???? ?????????? ?????" <
> pyotr.kl...@gmail.com>
>
> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>
>
> On Wednesday, 15 February, 2012 09:00:28 you wrote:
>>
>>> How should I create Yaardish's writing system, since I know some print,
>>> the
>>> only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure how to create it.
>>>
>> The authorative version:
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/latex-for-<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-for->
>> conlangers/message/108
>>
>> Also,
>>> how many grammar rules can a language have. Nicole Andrews
>>>
>> Most conlang experts prefer the A4-x rule. That is, rather than count
>> the actual number of rules, simply list them all on an A4 size piece of
>> paper
>> (at 9pt font size). The more pieces of paper used (x), the more
>> complicated
>> the language.
>> Some natlang examples:
>> A4-1: Indonesian
>> A4-2: English
>> A4-3: German
>> A4-4: Russian
>> A4-5: Arabic
>>
>> So if you're starting to get close to filling up five pages (front and
>> back), you're getting pretty close to the maximum. At which point, it's
>> probably most convinient to lose one sheet of paper, just to make sure
>> that
>> you have enough wriggle room. If you do lose one sheet, make sure that no
>> rules carry over from previous or following pages, otherwise it will be
>> very
>> confusing.
>> Regards,
>> :Peter
>> P.S. Don't use US letter size paper -- it's not asthetically pleasing.
>> If you're stuck in the US or Canada, I'm sure that a general appeal to the
>> list for A4 paper will not go unanswered. Alternately, you can get legal
>> size
>> paper and cut it down to 210 × 297 mm.
>>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:00 am ((PST))
The number of pages thing is a joke, english grammar books are several
hundred pages long, even just brief overviews tend to be in the 30-50
page range.
On 2/15/12, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why wouldn't it? Braille makes sense to me; I can even puzzle some of it
> out visibly. I can't read by touch, of course, not having learned to do
> so, but why not a writing system that is entirely tactile? It'd be fresh
> and interesting.
>
> As far as the complexity of language thing, I think Peter is pulling your
> leg slightly. There are no experts on conlanging, for one thing, and for
> another, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get all the rules of Bahasa Indonesia
> on two sheets of paper, and the paradigms alone of Greek would take up
> about ten pages.
>
> --Patrick
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If I create a writing system that looks like braille, it won't make sense
>> to anyone visually or probably tactically reading it, will it?
>>
>> Nicole Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> Tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> @greenNovelist
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "???? ?????????? ?????" <
>> pyotr.kl...@gmail.com>
>>
>> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, 15 February, 2012 09:00:28 you wrote:
>>>
>>>> How should I create Yaardish's writing system, since I know some print,
>>>> the
>>>> only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure how to create it.
>>>>
>>> The authorative version:
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/latex-for-<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-for->
>>> conlangers/message/108
>>>
>>> Also,
>>>> how many grammar rules can a language have. Nicole Andrews
>>>>
>>> Most conlang experts prefer the A4-x rule. That is, rather than count
>>> the actual number of rules, simply list them all on an A4 size piece of
>>> paper
>>> (at 9pt font size). The more pieces of paper used (x), the more
>>> complicated
>>> the language.
>>> Some natlang examples:
>>> A4-1: Indonesian
>>> A4-2: English
>>> A4-3: German
>>> A4-4: Russian
>>> A4-5: Arabic
>>>
>>> So if you're starting to get close to filling up five pages (front and
>>> back), you're getting pretty close to the maximum. At which point, it's
>>> probably most convinient to lose one sheet of paper, just to make sure
>>> that
>>> you have enough wriggle room. If you do lose one sheet, make sure that no
>>> rules carry over from previous or following pages, otherwise it will be
>>> very
>>> confusing.
>>> Regards,
>>> :Peter
>>> P.S. Don't use US letter size paper -- it's not asthetically pleasing.
>>> If you're stuck in the US or Canada, I'm sure that a general appeal to
>>> the
>>> list for A4 paper will not go unanswered. Alternately, you can get legal
>>> size
>>> paper and cut it down to 210 × 297 mm.
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:11 pm ((PST))
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:00:16 -0600, Matthew Turnbull
<ave....@gmail.com> wrote:
>The number of pages thing is a joke, english grammar books are several
>hundred pages long, even just brief overviews tend to be in the 30-50
>page range.
>
Color me embarrassed! I fell for it and thought, "Gee, I've really overdone it
with Senjecas." The fourth section of the grammar, Syntax, alone is 18 pages
at 8 pt. Microsoft Sans and contains 133 of the 295 total paragraphs. I never
gave a thought to the many language grammars I own!
Charlie
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:33 pm ((PST))
On 15 February 2012 13:11, Charlie Brickner <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:00:16 -0600, Matthew Turnbull
> <ave....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The number of pages thing is a joke, english grammar books are several
>>hundred pages long, even just brief overviews tend to be in the 30-50
>>page range.
>>
>
> Color me embarrassed! I fell for it and thought, "Gee, I've really overdone
> it
> with Senjecas." The fourth section of the grammar, Syntax, alone is 18 pages
> at 8 pt. Microsoft Sans and contains 133 of the 295 total paragraphs. I never
> gave a thought to the many language grammars I own!
One must distinguish, however, between a typical grammar-in-prose and
a bare-bones list of rules. I took it in the sense of "all you need to
know about Esperanto grammar fits on an index card", or my 10 pages of
really dense charts of Russian declinations and conjugations, which
exist despite the simultaneous existence of 100+ page books on
Esperanto.
-l.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:28 pm ((PST))
Amazing. So when I write this up in my lexicon, should I write it in the
font called braille and tell what each dot represents, that what I was
thinking, I like the tactile symbols idea idea, can I combine the two?
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Padraic Brown" <elemti...@yahoo.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
> --- On Wed, 2/15/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If I create a writing system that
>> looks like braille, it won't make sense to anyone visually
>> or probably tactically reading it, will it?
>
> The Yardish can always do what the Daine of the Holy Hills (just west of
> Westmarche in the Eastlands) did a very long time ago:
>
> Back in those days, only Teor lived in the Eastlands, and some Daine came
> out of the West and settled along the verges of Teorish lands. The Daine
> didn't have a writing system, but became aware that the Teor did in fact
> write things in theirs. There was a seer among the Daine called Sayaquorye
> who became determined to devise a writing system for her language. As is
> the case with many Daine that have othersight, Sayaquorye lacked vision
> in this world -- perhaps not even the perception of red that a sigted
> person gets when he closes his eyes and looks towards a light source. And
> though she had a kind of "awareness of shape and location" of things in
> space, she had no inner concept of things written or drawn on flat
> surfaces.
>
> Anyway, she goes off in the woods to meditate on this and comes back after
> a spell and asks for some wooden boards and some carving tools. What she
> ends up with is a bunch of boards with vinelike carvings and leaves and
> berries and so forth -- symbols essentially, carved into the wood. Folks
> weren't too sure about this at first, but became far more receptive after
> they understood that it wasn't just pretty carvings she had made but a way
> of encoding thoughts.
>
> Her writing system took off, and even now, some forty thousand years
> later,
> the Daine of Darenallië of the Holy Hills still use the "singing boards"
> to record stories and read from them later. By tradition and training,
> readers don't look at the carvings with their eyes, but always close their
> eyes and look at the boards with their fingers, following the story's flow
> with their hands.
>
> As one ancient story teller recounted to a curious Teor historian who had
> asked about the symbols that were "plainly visible" on the wood: "they're
> just squiggles! Vines and flowers. You can't see it, but we have to follow
> with our hands. The story sort of flies from the board and through our
> fingers to our hearts. Then we can sing what it's saying."
>
> Padraic
>
>> Nicole Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> Tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> @greenNovelist
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "???? ?????????? ?????"
>> <pyotr.kl...@gmail.com>
>> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>>
>>
>> > On Wednesday, 15 February, 2012 09:00:28 you wrote:
>> >> How should I create Yaardish's writing system,
>> since I know some print, the
>> >> only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure
>> how to create it.
>> > The authorative version: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-for-
>> > conlangers/message/108
>> >
>> >> Also,
>> >> how many grammar rules can a language have. Nicole
>> Andrews
>> > Most conlang experts prefer the A4-x rule. That is,
>> rather than count
>> > the actual number of rules, simply list them all on an
>> A4 size piece of paper
>> > (at 9pt font size). The more pieces of paper used (x),
>> the more complicated
>> > the language.
>> > Some natlang examples:
>> > A4-1: Indonesian
>> > A4-2: English
>> > A4-3: German
>> > A4-4: Russian
>> > A4-5: Arabic
>> >
>> > So if you're starting to get close to filling up five
>> pages (front and
>> > back), you're getting pretty close to the maximum. At
>> which point, it's
>> > probably most convinient to lose one sheet of paper,
>> just to make sure that
>> > you have enough wriggle room. If you do lose one sheet,
>> make sure that no
>> > rules carry over from previous or following pages,
>> otherwise it will be very
>> > confusing.
>> > Regards,
>> > :Peter
>> > P.S. Don't use US letter size paper -- it's not
>> asthetically pleasing.
>> > If you're stuck in the US or Canada, I'm sure that a
>> general appeal to the
>> > list for A4 paper will not go unanswered. Alternately,
>> you can get legal size
>> > paper and cut it down to 210 × 297 mm.
>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3f. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:37 pm ((PST))
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:59:52 -0600, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Why wouldn't it? Braille makes sense to me; I can even puzzle some of it
>out visibly. I can't read by touch, of course, not having learned to do
>so, but why not a writing system that is entirely tactile? It'd be fresh
>and interesting.
Sai and I constructed a touch-based written modality for the gripping
language, which makes thematic sense given that the primary mode of the
language is tactile too. This was the writing system we used in the card
exchange the one time we've managed to participate so far. It's based
fairly closely on our ordinary written script, which is reminiscent of
guitar tablature. Open and filled circles or regions in the written system
are rendered as bumps and holes, resp., in the tactile one. (I hope those
are in fact easily distinguished by a practiced reader...)
Alex
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3g. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:39 pm ((PST))
Regarding the number of grammar rules a language can have: Enough, and no
more.
stevo
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How should I create Yaardish's writing system, since I know some print,
> the only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure how to create it.
> Also, how many grammar rules can a language have.
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3h. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:47 pm ((PST))
So I have one hundred rules if I want?
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwd...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Why wouldn't it? Braille makes sense to me; I can even puzzle some of it
out visibly. I can't read by touch, of course, not having learned to do
so, but why not a writing system that is entirely tactile? It'd be fresh
and interesting.
As far as the complexity of language thing, I think Peter is pulling your
leg slightly. There are no experts on conlanging, for one thing, and for
another, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get all the rules of Bahasa Indonesia
on two sheets of paper, and the paradigms alone of Greek would take up
about ten pages.
--Patrick
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I create a writing system that looks like braille, it won't make sense
> to anyone visually or probably tactically reading it, will it?
>
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "???? ?????????? ?????" <
> pyotr.kl...@gmail.com>
>
> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>
>
> On Wednesday, 15 February, 2012 09:00:28 you wrote:
>>
>>> How should I create Yaardish's writing system, since I know some print,
>>> the
>>> only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure how to create it.
>>>
>> The authorative version:
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/latex-for-<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-for->
>> conlangers/message/108
>>
>> Also,
>>> how many grammar rules can a language have. Nicole Andrews
>>>
>> Most conlang experts prefer the A4-x rule. That is, rather than count
>> the actual number of rules, simply list them all on an A4 size piece of
>> paper
>> (at 9pt font size). The more pieces of paper used (x), the more
>> complicated
>> the language.
>> Some natlang examples:
>> A4-1: Indonesian
>> A4-2: English
>> A4-3: German
>> A4-4: Russian
>> A4-5: Arabic
>>
>> So if you're starting to get close to filling up five pages (front and
>> back), you're getting pretty close to the maximum. At which point, it's
>> probably most convinient to lose one sheet of paper, just to make sure
>> that
>> you have enough wriggle room. If you do lose one sheet, make sure that no
>> rules carry over from previous or following pages, otherwise it will be
>> very
>> confusing.
>> Regards,
>> :Peter
>> P.S. Don't use US letter size paper -- it's not asthetically pleasing.
>> If you're stuck in the US or Canada, I'm sure that a general appeal to
>> the
>> list for A4 paper will not go unanswered. Alternately, you can get legal
>> size
>> paper and cut it down to 210 × 297 mm.
>>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3i. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:10 pm ((PST))
Or 25. Or 568,214.
Adam
2012/2/15 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
> So I have one hundred rules if I want?
>
>
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwd...@gmail.com>
> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:59 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>
>
> Why wouldn't it? Braille makes sense to me; I can even puzzle some of it
> out visibly. I can't read by touch, of course, not having learned to do
> so, but why not a writing system that is entirely tactile? It'd be fresh
> and interesting.
>
> As far as the complexity of language thing, I think Peter is pulling your
> leg slightly. There are no experts on conlanging, for one thing, and for
> another, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get all the rules of Bahasa Indonesia
> on two sheets of paper, and the paradigms alone of Greek would take up
> about ten pages.
>
> --Patrick
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I create a writing system that looks like braille, it won't make sense
>> to anyone visually or probably tactically reading it, will it?
>>
>> Nicole Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> Tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> @greenNovelist
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "???? ?????????? ?????" <
>> pyotr.kl...@gmail.com>
>>
>> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, 15 February, 2012 09:00:28 you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> How should I create Yaardish's writing system, since I know some print,
>>>> the
>>>> only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure how to create it.
>>>>
>>>> The authorative version: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/***
>>> *group/latex-for- <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/latex-for-><
>>> http://tech.**groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-**for-<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/latex-for->
>>> >
>>> conlangers/message/108
>>>
>>> Also,
>>>
>>>> how many grammar rules can a language have. Nicole Andrews
>>>>
>>>> Most conlang experts prefer the A4-x rule. That is, rather than count
>>> the actual number of rules, simply list them all on an A4 size piece of
>>> paper
>>> (at 9pt font size). The more pieces of paper used (x), the more
>>> complicated
>>> the language.
>>> Some natlang examples:
>>> A4-1: Indonesian
>>> A4-2: English
>>> A4-3: German
>>> A4-4: Russian
>>> A4-5: Arabic
>>>
>>> So if you're starting to get close to filling up five pages (front and
>>> back), you're getting pretty close to the maximum. At which point, it's
>>> probably most convinient to lose one sheet of paper, just to make sure
>>> that
>>> you have enough wriggle room. If you do lose one sheet, make sure that no
>>> rules carry over from previous or following pages, otherwise it will be
>>> very
>>> confusing.
>>> Regards,
>>> :Peter
>>> P.S. Don't use US letter size paper -- it's not asthetically pleasing.
>>> If you're stuck in the US or Canada, I'm sure that a general appeal to
>>> the
>>> list for A4 paper will not go unanswered. Alternately, you can get legal
>>> size
>>> paper and cut it down to 210 × 297 mm.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.**finishinglinepress.com/**NewReleasesandForthcomingTitle
> **s.htm<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> >
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/**Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/**
> 1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&**qid=1324342341&sr=8-2<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>>.
>
>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
3j. Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" scotth...@telus.net
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:53 pm ((PST))
The number of rules is irrelevant. You have the number of rules you need to
describe the language. I have been working on Asirka for about 6 months and
the grammar is nearly 20 pages long. I don't look at it terms of the number
of anything. I look it as to whether I have sufficiently described how the
language works. If you're looking for a pattern look at the grammars of
other conlangs or natlangs.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
Sent: February 15, 2012 4:48 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
So I have one hundred rules if I want?
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwd...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
Why wouldn't it? Braille makes sense to me; I can even puzzle some of it
out visibly. I can't read by touch, of course, not having learned to do
so, but why not a writing system that is entirely tactile? It'd be fresh
and interesting.
As far as the complexity of language thing, I think Peter is pulling your
leg slightly. There are no experts on conlanging, for one thing, and for
another, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get all the rules of Bahasa Indonesia
on two sheets of paper, and the paradigms alone of Greek would take up
about ten pages.
--Patrick
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I create a writing system that looks like braille, it won't make sense
> to anyone visually or probably tactically reading it, will it?
>
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "???? ?????????? ?????" <
> pyotr.kl...@gmail.com>
>
> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Rules an Yardish's Writing Sysem
>
>
> On Wednesday, 15 February, 2012 09:00:28 you wrote:
>>
>>> How should I create Yaardish's writing system, since I know some print,
>>> the
>>> only real writing system is braille, i'm not sure how to create it.
>>>
>> The authorative version:
>>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/latex-for-<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com
/group/latex-for->
>> conlangers/message/108
>>
>> Also,
>>> how many grammar rules can a language have. Nicole Andrews
>>>
>> Most conlang experts prefer the A4-x rule. That is, rather than count
>> the actual number of rules, simply list them all on an A4 size piece of
>> paper
>> (at 9pt font size). The more pieces of paper used (x), the more
>> complicated
>> the language.
>> Some natlang examples:
>> A4-1: Indonesian
>> A4-2: English
>> A4-3: German
>> A4-4: Russian
>> A4-5: Arabic
>>
>> So if you're starting to get close to filling up five pages (front and
>> back), you're getting pretty close to the maximum. At which point, it's
>> probably most convinient to lose one sheet of paper, just to make sure
>> that
>> you have enough wriggle room. If you do lose one sheet, make sure that no
>> rules carry over from previous or following pages, otherwise it will be
>> very
>> confusing.
>> Regards,
>> :Peter
>> P.S. Don't use US letter size paper -- it's not asthetically pleasing.
>> If you're stuck in the US or Canada, I'm sure that a general appeal to
>> the
>> list for A4 paper will not go unanswered. Alternately, you can get legal
>> size
>> paper and cut it down to 210 × 297 mm.
>>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Outdoors
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:16 pm ((PST))
It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting our shut-
ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your culture
has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors, how do you
express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:25 pm ((PST))
Alurhsa: üsqel which means outside (of) something. Thus you can be
üsqel zhë sígvâyá (outside the house, i.e. outdoors) or üsqel zhë
bósnäyárá (outside the box) just as easily.
You can also just use it as "rrô üsqel", lit. I am outside, and leave
the statement of what it might be that you are outside of entirely up to
context or the listener's/reader's imagination.
For what it's worth, tseqel (inside) works the same way.
Also for what it's worth, at least here in New England "outside" and
"outdoors" are semi-interchangable. I would never say I'm enjoying the
Great Outside, but I can just as easily say I'm enjoying the winter
outside as enjoying the winter outdoors.
On 02/15/2012 03:15 PM, Charlie Brickner wrote:
> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting our
> shut-
> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>
> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your culture
> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors, how do
> you
> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
>
> Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:42 pm ((PST))
Nauspayr: no doors. No houses to speak of either. Historically, at least. I
guess they would probably say "in kotàyuv" (in the house) and "lanak kotàyel"
(outside the house). But then again, they could specify whether you were in
front of, behind, beside, etc, etc and there not be any particular peculiarity.
They might say "dilakh kotàyu" (literally: at place of origin = house: at home).
For speakers of Caccigga, there's a more important distinction than between
"indoors" and "outdoors": in the warm or in the cold: "inne la usnnagna" or
"inne la tagntagna".
On 15 Feb 2012, at 20:25, Tony Harris wrote:
> Alurhsa: üsqel which means outside (of) something. Thus you can be üsqel zhë
> sígvâyá (outside the house, i.e. outdoors) or üsqel zhë bósnäyárá (outside
> the box) just as easily.
>
> You can also just use it as "rrô üsqel", lit. I am outside, and leave the
> statement of what it might be that you are outside of entirely up to context
> or the listener's/reader's imagination.
>
> For what it's worth, tseqel (inside) works the same way.
>
> Also for what it's worth, at least here in New England "outside" and
> "outdoors" are semi-interchangable. I would never say I'm enjoying the Great
> Outside, but I can just as easily say I'm enjoying the winter outside as
> enjoying the winter outdoors.
Same here: although if you say "I'm going outside" there's a suggestion that
you're not doing it for fun; there is a specific aim, whereas "I'm going
outdoors" suggests you're doing it because it will be more pleasant in the
fresh air. "Going indoors" sounds like you're trying to escape the climate
(rain, presumably) and "going inside" suggests you're doing it to because you
have to (to cook or whatever) or you're avoiding somebody :)
> On 02/15/2012 03:15 PM, Charlie Brickner wrote:
>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting our
>> shut-
>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>>
>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your culture
>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors, how do
>> you
>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
>>
>> Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:54 pm ((PST))
The word for 'outside' or 'outdoors' in German is _draußen_, i.e. *thereout,
so no need to have doors if you speak German, as long as there's an 'inside'
(_drinnen_) to distinguish it from. However, we've borrowed _Outdoor-_ as a
noun modifier to refer to activities you do in the wild, like hiking,
climbing, moutainbiking, skiing, snowboarding and such.
Ayeri's word for 'outside' is _agonan_, which doesn't have to do anything
with doors (kunang) either.
Carsten
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Ben Scerri" psykieki...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:48 pm ((PST))
In Fengwë, the word would be *ensisa*, which means âopenâ (*ensi*)
âlandâ (*
sa*). One could also say *ensisai* or just *sai* to means âall outdoorsâ
etc, or *Ellsai* which would mean âthe Great Outdoorsâ (although the
concept like this doesnât really exist). The name of the world, however, is
*Ellsayi* which means âAll Great Earthâ, so, there is no reason why you
couldnât say *Ellsai*.
On 16 February 2012 07:54, Carsten Becker <carb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The word for 'outside' or 'outdoors' in German is _draußen_, i.e.
> *thereout,
> so no need to have doors if you speak German, as long as there's an
> 'inside'
> (_drinnen_) to distinguish it from. However, we've borrowed _Outdoor-_ as a
> noun modifier to refer to activities you do in the wild, like hiking,
> climbing, moutainbiking, skiing, snowboarding and such.
>
> Ayeri's word for 'outside' is _agonan_, which doesn't have to do anything
> with doors (kunang) either.
>
> Carsten
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4f. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "J. M. DeSantis" j...@jmdesantis.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:57 pm ((PST))
Charlie,
Given I'm not as skilled as some of our learned linguists here, but I
would imagine there are many ways to express the like-concept. For one,
you could use an expression that is not directly relatable, but covers
the same idea, such as "under the sun" or "in nature" or something of
that sort. Then, of course, there might be something more complex. Say,
if your people live in tents: "beyond the tent" or "on/above the
heavenly sward." I would suppose, to some extent, you have to consider
how often a culture would use the term (often this dictates it's length,
as shorter terms tend to be more often used), and their perspective
(really) on the "outdoors." Meaning, in the case of say Dothraki (and
not to step on Mr. Peterson's toes--I apologise for being so
presumptuous), they might say "where the horses graze," or, to be more
true to the culture as I've (thus far) read of it: "beneath the sight of
the moon." Where Tolkien's Eldar (Elves) might say "under the shining
stars." I really think it depends on the culture and what their values,
sensibilities, beliefs, etc are.
Hope that helps. All the best.
--
Sincerely,
J. M. DeSantis
Writer - Illustrator
Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
<http://www.game-flush.com>
On 2/15/2012 3:15 PM, Charlie Brickner wrote:
> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting our
> shut-
> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>
> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your culture
> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors, how do
> you
> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
<http://www.game-flush.com>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4g. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:14 pm ((PST))
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:15:26 -0500, Charlie Brickner
<caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting our
shut-
>ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>
>The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your culture
>has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors, how do you
>express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
Never minding primitivity, of course doors are only one of many ways to
lexicalise this, and it's one it doesn't look like I've taken yet. (All of
the below langs know of doors!)
Pjaukra has _erdau_ 'outdoors' which I explain as a lexicalised subessive of
'sun', and _xramu_ 'indoors' a lexicalised subessive of 'roof'. The
subessive was productively lost long long ago (maybe it was only ever a
by-formation.)
Sabasasaj has verbal prefixes in the same slot as classifiers or
incorporates go: _hjaa-_ 'outdoors', _tu-_ '[in] a house' and by extension
'indoors'. They are underived.
In A:jat he-Heloun I've only created 'outdoors' _otsa_, which looks to be
*_ot_ 'wind' (lost as a simplex) plus _-sa_ 'place characterised by N'.
Alex
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
4h. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:49 pm ((PST))
Charlie wrote:
It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting our shut-
ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your culture
has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors, how do you
express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
========================================================
Well, all my people live in houses and have doors; but AFAIK I've only worried
about Kash so far--
they go _ri opore(ni puna)_ to the outside (of the house), or stay ri onde(ni
puna) at inside the house.
Where's Mina? riyena Mina? Mina ri opor, she's outside, to be brief. If you
used dative case--riyene Mina? ...ri opore-- it would mean 'where's she gone?
-- she's gone outside'.
I'll have to check to see whether I've yet discovered those concepts in Gwr and
Prevli (which don't have cases)...........
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. bird names
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:08 pm ((PST))
Sorry for cross posting, but believe there are enough people no on (or at
least not active on) bot Coanlang and the Ramolang iteration that it
warrants the crossover.
I decided, today, that I need a word for the swift in Carrajina, since it
is a native species. So I thought I'd go my usual route -- look the word
up in a bunch of Romance languages (plus Greek, Arabic and Ancient Hebrew),
see how they cluster and then choose one of the options for which I could
track down the etymology. But the names for this bird are all over the
chart!
Catalan -- falciot negre
Greek -- maurotachtara
Spanish -- vencejo común
French -- martinet noir
Galician -- cirrio común
Italian -- rondone
Latin -- apus
Piedmontese -- rondon
Portuguese -- andorinhão-preto
Sardinian -- rundinone
Sicilian -- rinninuni
The only cluster there is the one comprising Italian, Piedmontese,
Sardinian and Sicilian, but I lack good etymological sources for those
languages, so I'm more or less stuck.
The biggest surprise to me, was that the four Iberian languages (normally
so similar in vocab choices) ALL strike out in vastly different directions.
I'm wondering if I might not be better off inventing a name that strikes
out in YET ANOTHER direction, since there seems to be almost no agreement
on what to call this bird. But before I make up my mind, I was wondering
if anyone knows what to call this bird in Romanian, Asturian, Provencal,
Walloon, Arabic, Maltese, Venitian, Langobard, Ladin or Ancient
Hebrew/Punic-Phonecian.
Also, does anyone have an explination or even a reasonable guess as to why
the names of this bird are so random?
Adam
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: bird names
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" scotth...@telus.net
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:59 pm ((PST))
Romanian is rândunicÄ
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of Adam Walker
Sent: February 15, 2012 5:09 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: bird names
Sorry for cross posting, but believe there are enough people no on (or at
least not active on) bot Coanlang and the Ramolang iteration that it
warrants the crossover.
I decided, today, that I need a word for the swift in Carrajina, since it
is a native species. So I thought I'd go my usual route -- look the word
up in a bunch of Romance languages (plus Greek, Arabic and Ancient Hebrew),
see how they cluster and then choose one of the options for which I could
track down the etymology. But the names for this bird are all over the
chart!
Catalan -- falciot negre
Greek -- maurotachtara
Spanish -- vencejo común
French -- martinet noir
Galician -- cirrio común
Italian -- rondone
Latin -- apus
Piedmontese -- rondon
Portuguese -- andorinhão-preto
Sardinian -- rundinone
Sicilian -- rinninuni
The only cluster there is the one comprising Italian, Piedmontese,
Sardinian and Sicilian, but I lack good etymological sources for those
languages, so I'm more or less stuck.
The biggest surprise to me, was that the four Iberian languages (normally
so similar in vocab choices) ALL strike out in vastly different directions.
I'm wondering if I might not be better off inventing a name that strikes
out in YET ANOTHER direction, since there seems to be almost no agreement
on what to call this bird. But before I make up my mind, I was wondering
if anyone knows what to call this bird in Romanian, Asturian, Provencal,
Walloon, Arabic, Maltese, Venitian, Langobard, Ladin or Ancient
Hebrew/Punic-Phonecian.
Also, does anyone have an explination or even a reasonable guess as to why
the names of this bird are so random?
Adam
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6.1. Re: Days of the week
Posted by: "Elliott Lash" erelio...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:36 pm ((PST))
Domhnach < Old Irish Domnach < Latin Dominicus, that is true.
Domhnach < Old Irish Domnach < Latin Dominicus, that is true.
However, Lúan < Old Irish, not from Latin, (the diphthong -úa- cannot be
derived from the long -u:- of Latin.) Instead, it probably comes from an
Indo-European (or Italo-Celtic ?) form underlying both Latin and Irish (or
Celtic): *lowksneh2. This became *lu:ksna: in Italic and then lu:na: in
Latin, with the simplification of consonant clusters that Latin is well-known
for.
*lowksneh2 became *lo:ksna: in Celtic and then *lo:na: in Pre-Irish. Then o:
'broke' into the diphthon -úa-, as is usual in Irish. - The one problem with
this etymology (from Ranko Matasovic :
http://www.celtologica.co.uk/PDF/Celto-Slavica2%20Matasovic.pdf ) that I see is
that Old Irish lúan was a masculine o-stem (genitive lúain is found in the name
for Monday in Old Irish: día lúain 'the day of monday'). So, possibly there
was a bi-form *lowksnos?
Anyway, I can imagine that the Latin expression dies Lunae was helpful in
creating the calqued día lúain amongst the early Irish clergy.
Mháirt < Old Irish día Mairt 'day of Tuesday' < Latin dies Martis, that's true.
Chéadaoin < Old Irish cét-aín[e]. This is from the compound ordinal form cét,
plus the word aín[e] (which is feminine and fluctuates between a-stem, aín, and
an ia-stem aíne forms. This is the expected outcome of a borrowing from Latin
ieiunium 'fast', the same word that becomes déjeuner and desayuno, etc, in
Romance, with the antonym prefix dis-, in Latin. Latin ieiunium > *yeyuniyom
> *eyuniyon > *euyuneyon > *euyneyon > *oyneyon > *oineon > oine (attested) >
aine (Later form after falling together of the diphthongs oi and ai). (I
think this progression is pretty much what must have happened, but I am not an
expert in Irish historical phonology - I work on its syntax mostly). You'll
notice that I said it is either a feminine a-stem or ia-stem in Old Irish -
many Latin loan words become feminine in Irish. Incidentally, this is another
indication that lúan is not loaned from Latin, since it is unusual for a
feminine Latin word to
become a masculine Irish word.
Déardaoin < Old Irish día etar-dí-aín 'day between two fasts'. The early form
of día 'day' was dé, which is also attested. Possibly déardaoin comes from *dé
etar-dí-aín, with a running together of the two 'e' phonemes, so that you get
the attested Old Irish forms 'de tardaín/de dardaín', with a later replacement
of 'de' with the later form 'día dardaín' (also attested). Squishing this
together further doesn't seem too implausible. (Anyway, see this:
http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&searchtext=darda%C3%ADn&findlet=+&findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1
for more info )
In Old Irish Friday was often 'aíne dídine' "last fast", besides simply 'aíne'.
Elliott
________________________________
From: David McCann <da...@polymathy.plus.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Days of the week
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:23:30 +0100
Nikolay Ivankov <lukevil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A friend of mine told me, that there are some 6 names of the days
> concerned with Bible in Irish, though AFAIR these wore mostly
> concerned with "before fasting" (on Friday) or "after fasting". Can't
> say for sure.
The Irish weekday names are Domhnach, Luan, Mháirt, Chéadaoin,
Déardaoin, Aione, Satharn. Obviously Domhnach, Luan, Mháirt, and
Satharn are from the Latin. I think Chéadaoin and Aoine mean
"first fast" and "fast", but Déardaoin is a mystery.
For Greek, "day of Hermes" is as old as the Latin "day of Mercury". The
seven-day week is not Jewish, but Babylonian, and the Greeks got it
along with astrology.
Messages in this topic (27)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com
conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
