There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: A. da Mek
1b. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Adnan Majid
1d. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: R A Brown
1e. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: R A Brown
1f. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Adnan Majid
1g. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Daniel Prohaska
1h. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Daniel Prohaska
1i. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2. Indexes in C0
From: neo gu
3a. Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
From: A. da Mek
3b. Re: Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3c. Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
From: A. da Mek
3d. Re: Nations
From: R A Brown
3e. Re: Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 11:33 am ((PDT))
>> English could follow the precedent established by Latin, becoming a
>> dead language used only to publish scientific works
>
> For right now,
> this does not seem to be much of a likelihood, though.
With the most frequent name of a newborn boy in GB being Muhammad?
> Unless world
> culture / civilisation absolutely collapses and we end up with an early
> iron age world again,
It need not be Iron Age; Middle Ages will be enough.
> Education, literacy and world-spanning media will pretty much put a lid
> on any serious evolution of a whole new language family.
The pronunciation of English has already diverged so much from its historic
orthography that the written and spoken English are rather different
languages. And with the Internet, I suppose that there are plenty of Tarzans
over the world, who know only the written English and cannot understand
spoken English at all.
>> Coptic, the last remnant of the once mighty Egyptian?
>
> the future of
> Coptic, as well as the future of the Christians that speak and use it is
> somewhere between bleak and hopeless
Even the fact, that Coptic survived only as liturgical language of
Christians, is alarming. Where are any true Egyptians, proud on the heritage
of their ancient civilisation, including the old religion?
Unlike me, who cannot return to the religious rituals once performed in my
homeland, because the old sacred groves had been hewn down centuries ago and
nothing certain is known neither of the religion of Boii nor West Slavic
peoples, the Egyptians have plenty of ancient texts preserved and
deciphered. Where are better conditions for a national revival? But they do
not appreciate such possibilities.
>
> You said "so a language (and its culture and nation) can exist only if its
speakers are isolated". English never had a period of isolation! It took
root in a country that spoke Latin (at the higher levels of society) and
British Celtic at other levels. It had to contend with Norse invasions, as
well as dealing with its Celtic neighbors. Within a couple centuries its
land was conquered by French speakers. Things only opened wider from that
point on.
>
Well, this is an interesting topic to think about.
Maybe the key question is: From which stage we can speak of English language
as such? Is not Old English, completely unintelligible to modern speakers,
rather a different language, and the history of English starts only with the
Middle English, after absorbing its Norman component?
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 5:09 pm ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 8/6/12, A. da Mek <a.da_m...@ufoni.cz> wrote:
> >> English could follow the
> precedent established by Latin, becoming a
> >> dead language used only to publish scientific
> works
> >
> > For right now,
> > this does not seem to be much of a likelihood, though.
>
> With the most frequent name of a newborn boy in GB being
> Muhammad?
Did I say it was "impossible"? -- Nope! (And I *am* aware of this situation
in the UK...)
> > Unless world
> > culture / civilisation absolutely collapses and we end
> up with an early
> > iron age world again,
>
> It need not be Iron Age; Middle Ages will be enough.
Not really much of a difference. The point being, for English to truly
break up the way Latin did, you'd really need to get rid of what is keeping
it together, and that is mostly technology and widespread education.
Someone already mentioned sound changes and so forth. I think most of that
is hip faddishness. Most people (at least in the US) don't really sound a
whole lot different than people in the movies 30 or 60 years ago. In other
words, no radical change for the vast majority of speakers.
> > Education, literacy and world-spanning media will
> pretty much put a lid
> > on any serious evolution of a whole new language
> family.
>
> The pronunciation of English has already diverged so much
> from its historic
> orthography that the written and spoken English are rather
> different
> languages.
Yep. And again, that change happened in a very different situation, and
the history is a very long one. Don't take me wrong: language change is
real, and it happens. All I'm saying is that education, technology and
media have a damping effect on what would otherwise change quite naturally
at a much faster rate.
> And with the Internet, I suppose that there are
> plenty of Tarzans
> over the world, who know only the written English and cannot
> understand spoken English at all.
Probably!
> >> Coptic, the last remnant of the once mighty
> Egyptian?
> >
> > the future of
> > Coptic, as well as the future of the Christians that
> speak and use it is
> > somewhere between bleak and hopeless
>
> Even the fact, that Coptic survived only as liturgical
> language of
> Christians, is alarming. Where are any true Egyptians, proud
> on the heritage
> of their ancient civilisation, including the old religion?
Well, I don't know that much about the Egyptian education system or about
how much revision gets done in Islamic based education systems, when it
comes to pre-Islamic history.
> Unlike me, who cannot return to the religious rituals once
> performed in my
> homeland, because the old sacred groves had been hewn down
> centuries ago and
> nothing certain is known neither of the religion of Boii nor
> West Slavic
> peoples, the Egyptians have plenty of ancient texts
> preserved and
> deciphered. Where are better conditions for a national
> revival?
Probably in Czeck Rep.! Honestly, you're talking about a country that has
an officially sanctioned discrimination / repression doctrine. How on
earth are any would-be Egyptian Pagans going to fare if they try to
revive the old religion there?
Or you can try California: http://www.prntrkmt.org/religion/nativeegyptian.html
> But they do not appreciate such possibilities.
Right. The current dominant religion and culture is extremely monolithic
and extremely discriminatory against what is viewed as idolatry.
> > You said "so a language (and its culture and nation)
> can exist only if its
> speakers are isolated". English never had a period of
> isolation! It took
> root in a country that spoke Latin (at the higher levels of
> society) and
> British Celtic at other levels. It had to contend with Norse
> invasions, as
> well as dealing with its Celtic neighbors. Within a couple
> centuries its
> land was conquered by French speakers. Things only opened
> wider from that
> point on.
> >
>
> Well, this is an interesting topic to think about.
> Maybe the key question is: From which stage we can speak of
> English language
> as such?
I would hazard the guess that it would not be among the first generation
or two. The earliest English texts are from the 600s -- a good century or
two after the invaders first settled.
> Is not Old English, completely unintelligible to
> modern speakers,
No -- or rather, it depends. A simple text with words common to both ends
of the spectrum is pretty transparent:
Se wisa wer timbrode his hus ofer stan.
Þa com þær micel flod, and þær bleowon windas, and ahruron on þæt hus, and hit
ne feoll: soþlice, hit wæs ofer stan getimbrod.
Þa timbrode se dysiga wer his hus ofer sandceosol. Þa rinde hit, and þær com
flod, and bleowon windas, and ahruron on þæt hus, and þæt hus feoll; and his
hryre wæs micel.
(Doesn't look a whole lot different from Avantimannish!)
You can easily see the words WISE, WERE[WOLF], TIMBERED, HIS, HOUSE, OVER,
STONE, COME, MICKLE, FLOOD, AND, THERE, BLOW, WINDS, AND, THAT, FALL,
SOOTHLY, IT, WAS, SAND.
There are certainly many OE words that have been lost to standard ModE,
and texts filled with those words will be much more ungothroughsome. And
then, there are plenty of modern English dialect words that will baffle
any modern English speaker. Ask an average Londoner how well he understands
Geordie!
> rather a different language, and the history of English
> starts only with the
> Middle English, after absorbing its Norman component?
Middle English is truly móre readily accessible:
As hyt ys y-knowe hough meny maner people buth in this ylond, ther buth
also of so meny people longages and tonges; notheles Walschmen and Scottes,
that buth noght y-melled with other nacions, holdeth wel nygh here furste
longage and speche, bote ghefe Scottes, that were som tyme confederat and
wonede with the Pictes, drawe somwhat after here speche. Bote the
Flemmynges, that woneth in the west syde of Wales, habbeth y-left here
strange speche and speketh Saxonlych y-now.
But, for many perhaps, still not quite as understandable as:
I meditate before I elevate, cough, medicate
Sedate, date which I escalate, heaven gates
No hesitation, Wolf revelation
Gang education, Freddy Jason, what it might seem
We shake and bake the cake, poison frozen icing
Fuck 'em all, ice cream, black magic, white dreams
Blue collar, purple tag label
You holla, don't bother me, you sitting at the fag table
My state is euphoric, and my pride is true courage
Alas.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Adnan Majid" dsama...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 7:33 pm ((PDT))
Thanks Patrick and Michael,
Cool examples - I'm eagerly looking into both Massachussett and Cornish now.
I'm not too familiar with the Cornish revivalist movement, but do people
first hoping to learn the language ever express trouble to the extent of
saying, "This language is a bit too hard for me"? I ask because I noticed
that the language uses a full set of verb conjugations, tenses, different
ways to pluralize nouns, noun genders, etc. These aspects of grammer
definitely give a language its unique flavor but may add a difficulty
impeding language revival. Would revival happen faster if Henry Jenner
presented people with a language devoid of gender, irregularities, phonemic
mutations, verb conjugations? Sort of like "Cornish sine flexione"? Though
I'm sure purist enthusiasts would not be fully happy about that.
Best!
Adnan
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Patrick Michael Niedzielski <
patrickniedziel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On sab, 2012-08-04 at 12:51 -0700, Adnan Majid wrote:
> > Hey everyone!
> >
> > It's sad when natural languages die - we all lose a bit of our common
> human
> > culture. Just read about this effort to revive a Native American
> > language, Siletz
> > Dee-Ni<
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/us/siletz-language-with-few-voices-finds-modern-way-to-survive.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120804
> >
> > in
> > the New York Times. The tribe exists, but its language has few speakers.
> I
> > wonder if part of the trouble is teaching a difficult and "alien" grammar
> > to older tribe members who only know English. Children may be able to
> learn
> > the language in school, but if it's not widely spoken by adults in the
> > community, achieving a stable population of native speakers may be very
> > difficult.
> >
> > This got me wondering whether conlanging could contribute to this
> language
> > revival. A tribe could decide to produce a new, constructed language with
> > the traditional vocabulary but a much simplified grammer similar to that
> of
> > the tribe's commonly spoken language (English) - That may facilitate
> > language learning in an adult population.
> >
> > Has anyone heard of this being done? I wonder if the revival of modern
> > Hebrew could be informative - does modern Hebrew simplify complex
> > grammatical structures of Biblical Hebrew?
> >
> > Best wishes!
> > Adnan
>
> Jessie Little Doe Baird, the leader of the reclamation project for the
> Massachusett language, gave a presentation to the constructed languages
> club at my school a year or two ago. It's somewhat different than what
> you describe, as there was a substantial amount of written work in the
> language that had been preserved. Baird maintained that it was the
> original language decoded, but conceded that she had to add many words
> and even a few grammatical structures that were missing from the corpus.
>
> Her daughter, I believe, is the first native speaker of the language in
> several generations, and they are training adults in the Massachusett
> tribal community in the language.
>
> Cheers,
> Patrick
>
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 11:35 pm ((PDT))
On 06/08/2012 12:12, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>
> PS - I hope the Welsh proverb can be treated just a
> Welsh proverb. However, if it is felt that it offends the
> NCNC convention, I will remove it.
Whether it offended anyone or not, I do not know; but I have
reverted to the previous Welsh proverb which, as I get
older, I learn is so very true.
But the main reason I've removed it is that I've read with
dismay the nonsense about nationhood & language that this
thread has spawned. The spread of English as the national
language of many different nations has been noted; one could
also note the same of Spanish which IIRC is the official
language of more than 20 nations.
Comparing the world of the 21st century, with all the means
of mass communication and intercommunication offered by
modern technology with the world of the 5th century during
which the western Roman Empire collapsed is, to put it
mildly, bonkers.
No one has so far mentioned bilingual nations like Wales or
Belgium, or Switzerland with is four official languages or
the Republic of South Africa with 11 languages given
official recognition.
Dustfinger quite pertinently asked: "Erm... What about
Creoles?" Yes, indeed - the whole phenomenon of
pidginization & creolization has been ignored and yet IMO it
entirely relevant to any discussion about language and
nationality.
Good grief - during the millennia of prehistory human
languages evolved without legally defined nations. To say
that "the language is so essential to a nation as DNA is to
a species" is IMHO just so, so counterfactual!
How's about returning to the actual topic? ;)
On 04/08/2012 20:51, Adnan Majid wrote:
[snip]
>
> This got me wondering whether conlanging could
> contribute to this language revival. A tribe could decide
> to produce a new, constructed language with the
> traditional vocabulary but a much simplified grammar
> similar to that of the tribe's commonly spoken language
> (English) - That may facilitate language learning in an
> adult population.
To change a language's grammar along the lines of the
dominant language around the community would surely be to
produce a sort of creole, which would probably not satisfy
anyone, but ....
> Has anyone heard of this being done? I wonder if the
> revival of modern Hebrew could be informative - does
> modern Hebrew simplify complex grammatical structures of
> Biblical Hebrew?
Yes, Matthew Gurevitch gave a very informative answer
regarding modern Hebrew (tho I did not agree with his last
paragraph).
During the Cornish language revival there were (are?)
differences between those who, like Morton Nance, looked to
the Middle Cornish (13th to 16th cent.), claiming that this
was the 'Classical' of Cornish literature before Cornish
became contaminated by English, and those like Richard
Gendall who looked to the late Cornish of the 17th & 18th
centuries, partly because its grammar was more periphrastic
and thus easier for English speakers to learn.
It seems to me that probably some simplification is likely,
but that it must come 'naturally' from the community (as in
the case of modern Hebrew) and not from some artificial
conlang which IMO would likely be resented as a travesty of
the actual language. It seems to me that while revivals can
learn from the experience of other projects, each situation
is different and needs to be worked out in its own way.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 12:00 am ((PDT))
I meant to answer this as part of my previous mail :)
On 07/08/2012 03:32, Adnan Majid wrote:
> Thanks Patrick and Michael,
>
> Cool examples - I'm eagerly looking into both
> Massachussett and Cornish now.
>
> I'm not too familiar with the Cornish revivalist
> movement, but do people first hoping to learn the
> language ever express trouble to the extent of saying,
> "This language is a bit too hard for me"? I ask because I
> noticed that the language uses a full set of verb
> conjugations, tenses, different ways to pluralize nouns,
> noun genders, etc. These aspects of grammer definitely
> give a language its unique flavor but may add a
> difficulty impeding language revival. Would revival
> happen faster if Henry Jenner presented people with a
> language devoid of gender, irregularities, phonemic
> mutations, verb conjugations? Sort of like "Cornish sine
> flexione"?
..and that would NOT be Cornish!!
Cornish is one of the Insular Celtic languages and one of
the features of these languages is initial consonant
mutation. People expect the grammar of a non-English
language not to be the same as English.
I think it safe to say that if Henry Jenner had presented
people with such a ghastly "Cornish sine flexione" there
would have been no revival - tho it might have sparked saner
minds to look at the actual language.
> Though I'm sure purist enthusiasts would not be fully
> happy about that.
Too right - but, far more importantly, *people learning the
language would not be happy also because they would know
that they were not learning Cornish.*
Over the years I have learnt to a lesser or greater degree
many languages; I would very annoyed to discover that I was
learning something that was, in fact, not the language at
all but just its vocabulary strung together with an
artificial esperantine grammar.
For me it is the very differences between languages that
make them interesting.
Vive les différences!
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Adnan Majid" dsama...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 12:44 am ((PDT))
Hi Everyone!
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 12:00 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
>
> ..and that would NOT be Cornish!!
>
Certainly!
>
> Cornish is one of the Insular Celtic languages and one of
> the features of these languages is initial consonant
> mutation. People expect the grammar of a non-English
> language not to be the same as English.
>
Indeed, from what I've seen of Cornish, initial consonant mutation seems
like quite a beautiful and unique thing, defining the character of the
language. But I'm not sure about other aspects of grammar - irregularities
and rule exceptions - which may discourage non-native speakers who are
eager to learn the language to build a new cultural community. The new
grammar need not be as extreme as removing all inflexions - but even small
changes could go far in making the language easier to apprehend.
>
> Too right - but, far more importantly, *people learning the
> language would not be happy also because they would know
> that they were not learning Cornish.*
>
Well, I'm not too sure about that. True, the new language would be somewhat
different from the language of one's ancestors, but for a tribe that has
already lost that connection (due to the passing of older, fluent
speakers), reviving its language is as much about building a new cultural
future as it is about connecting with the past. If a language is readily
flexible and useable by eager learners due to its simplicity, it may
facilitate speakers towards creating their own poetry, prose, theater, and
art with it right off the bat. That may be a powerful motivation towards
learning such a language.
- Vive les différences!
I agree entirely, but those differences need not spring out of a grammar
alone - the unique vocabulary and sounds of the new language may be moving
enough.
Best wishes!
Adnan
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:09 am ((PDT))
On Aug 7, 2012, at 4:32 AM, Adnan Majid wrote:
> Thanks Patrick and Michael,
>
> Cool examples - I'm eagerly looking into both Massachussett and Cornish now.
>
> I'm not too familiar with the Cornish revivalist movement, but do people
> first hoping to learn the language ever express trouble to the extent of
> saying, "This language is a bit too hard for me"?
This is occasionally heard, but these are used only as an excuse when people
give up learning Cornish or never even start.
> I ask because I noticed
> that the language uses a full set of verb conjugations, tenses, different
> ways to pluralize nouns, noun genders, etc. These aspects of grammer
> definitely give a language its unique flavor but may add a difficulty
> impeding language revival. Would revival happen faster if Henry Jenner
> presented people with a language devoid of gender, irregularities, phonemic
> mutations, verb conjugations? Sort of like "Cornish sine flexione"? Though
> I'm sure purist enthusiasts would not be fully happy about that.
>
> Best!
> Adnan
No, definitely not. Many Cornish learners and speakers express pride in the way
Cornish differs from English because of it's inflections and nuances of
emphasis it can express by changing word order.
As has been explained here before, Cornish is essentially being revived in two
"dialects", one based on Middle Cornish and one based on Late Cornish. The
highly inflected Middle Cornish base is somewhat exaggerated as the only MC
prose text makes plenty of use of periphrastic constructions. And certain
inflected forms are more common than others.
I don't think Cornovica sine flexione would have made it very far. People would
have been aware that it wasn't really Cornish.
Dan
>
> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Patrick Michael Niedzielski <
> patrickniedziel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On sab, 2012-08-04 at 12:51 -0700, Adnan Majid wrote:
>>> Hey everyone!
>>>
>>> It's sad when natural languages die - we all lose a bit of our common
>> human
>>> culture. Just read about this effort to revive a Native American
>>> language, Siletz
>>> Dee-Ni<
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/us/siletz-language-with-few-voices-finds-modern-way-to-survive.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120804
>>>
>>> in
>>> the New York Times. The tribe exists, but its language has few speakers.
>> I
>>> wonder if part of the trouble is teaching a difficult and "alien" grammar
>>> to older tribe members who only know English. Children may be able to
>> learn
>>> the language in school, but if it's not widely spoken by adults in the
>>> community, achieving a stable population of native speakers may be very
>>> difficult.
>>>
>>> This got me wondering whether conlanging could contribute to this
>> language
>>> revival. A tribe could decide to produce a new, constructed language with
>>> the traditional vocabulary but a much simplified grammer similar to that
>> of
>>> the tribe's commonly spoken language (English) - That may facilitate
>>> language learning in an adult population.
>>>
>>> Has anyone heard of this being done? I wonder if the revival of modern
>>> Hebrew could be informative - does modern Hebrew simplify complex
>>> grammatical structures of Biblical Hebrew?
>>>
>>> Best wishes!
>>> Adnan
>>
>> Jessie Little Doe Baird, the leader of the reclamation project for the
>> Massachusett language, gave a presentation to the constructed languages
>> club at my school a year or two ago. It's somewhat different than what
>> you describe, as there was a substantial amount of written work in the
>> language that had been preserved. Baird maintained that it was the
>> original language decoded, but conceded that she had to add many words
>> and even a few grammatical structures that were missing from the corpus.
>>
>> Her daughter, I believe, is the first native speaker of the language in
>> several generations, and they are training adults in the Massachusett
>> tribal community in the language.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Patrick
>>
Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:19 am ((PDT))
On Aug 7, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Adnan Majid wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 12:00 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> ..and that would NOT be Cornish!!
>
> Certainly!
>
>> Cornish is one of the Insular Celtic languages and one of
>> the features of these languages is initial consonant
>> mutation. People expect the grammar of a non-English
>> language not to be the same as English.
>
> Indeed, from what I've seen of Cornish, initial consonant mutation seems
> like quite a beautiful and unique thing, defining the character of the
> language.
Not really unique. Initial mutations occur in all the living Celtic languages,
the three Gaelics, Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx, as well as the three
Brythonic languages Welsh, Breton and Cornish. It also occurs in Italian some
dialects
.
> But I'm not sure about other aspects of grammar - irregularities
> and rule exceptions - which may discourage non-native speakers who are
> eager to learn the language to build a new cultural community. The new
> grammar need not be as extreme as removing all inflexions - but even small
> changes could go far in making the language easier to apprehend.
Revived Cornish has all the quirks and irregularities of attested traditional
Cornish in its prescriptive reference material (with little mistakes here and
there, or at least ambivalent cases), but people on the ground do make
"mistakes" - an occasional dropped mutation, sometimes the use of the definite
article does not conform with traditional Cornish.
>>
>> Too right - but, far more importantly, *people learning the
>> language would not be happy also because they would know
>> that they were not learning Cornish.*
>
> Well, I'm not too sure about that. True, the new language would be somewhat
> different from the language of one's ancestors, but for a tribe that has
> already lost that connection (due to the passing of older, fluent
> speakers), reviving its language is as much about building a new cultural
> future as it is about connecting with the past.
This maybe so, but Cornish speakers generally feel that they are reclaiming
part of their historical identity. Some Cornish speakers who learnt the Middle
Cornish based variety cry out at the "corrupted" poorly inflected Late Cornish
base.
They lurrvz them inflections
!
Dan
PS: My Cornish audio course is online at:
http://www.kernewegva.com/deskikernowek.html
> If a language is readily
> flexible and useable by eager learners due to its simplicity, it may
> facilitate speakers towards creating their own poetry, prose, theater, and
> art with it right off the bat. That may be a powerful motivation towards
> learning such a language.
>
> - Vive les différences!
>
> I agree entirely, but those differences need not spring out of a grammar
> alone - the unique vocabulary and sounds of the new language may be moving
> enough.
>
> Best wishes!
> Adnan
Messages in this topic (25)
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1i. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 8:51 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Tuesday 07 August 2012 09:00:14 R A Brown wrote:
> I meant to answer this as part of my previous mail :)
>
> On 07/08/2012 03:32, Adnan Majid wrote:
> > Thanks Patrick and Michael,
> >
> > Cool examples - I'm eagerly looking into both
> > Massachussett and Cornish now.
> >
> > I'm not too familiar with the Cornish revivalist
> > movement, but do people first hoping to learn the
> > language ever express trouble to the extent of saying,
> > "This language is a bit too hard for me"? I ask because I
> > noticed that the language uses a full set of verb
> > conjugations, tenses, different ways to pluralize nouns,
> > noun genders, etc. These aspects of grammer definitely
> > give a language its unique flavor but may add a
> > difficulty impeding language revival. Would revival
> > happen faster if Henry Jenner presented people with a
> > language devoid of gender, irregularities, phonemic
> > mutations, verb conjugations? Sort of like "Cornish sine
> > flexione"?
>
> ..and that would NOT be Cornish!!
Indeed not!
> Cornish is one of the Insular Celtic languages and one of
> the features of these languages is initial consonant
> mutation. People expect the grammar of a non-English
> language not to be the same as English.
>
> I think it safe to say that if Henry Jenner had presented
> people with such a ghastly "Cornish sine flexione" there
> would have been no revival - tho it might have sparked saner
> minds to look at the actual language.
I have once seen an "Inter-Celtic" auxlang, I think it was named
_Celltiecc_ (sic!), which consisted of words nicked from various
Insular Celtic languages bundled with a simple grammar. Of course,
Celltiecc did not have initial mutations. An IMHO meaningless
project. Just to show that no idea is too stupid to find someone
who tries it out ;)
> > Though I'm sure purist enthusiasts would not be fully
> > happy about that.
>
> Too right - but, far more importantly, *people learning the
> language would not be happy also because they would know
> that they were not learning Cornish.*
>
> Over the years I have learnt to a lesser or greater degree
> many languages; I would very annoyed to discover that I was
> learning something that was, in fact, not the language at
> all but just its vocabulary strung together with an
> artificial esperantine grammar.
But certainly so! People want to learn the "real thing", not
some oversimplified plaything.
> For me it is the very differences between languages that
> make them interesting.
>
> Vive les différences!
Very much so!
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (25)
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2. Indexes in C0
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 12:28 pm ((PDT))
In C0, the indexes appear as both pronouns and noun suffixes. As suffixes they
accomplish the following:
(a) mark the phrase as being obviative for when 2 arguments are phrases,
(b) define the index as denoting that referent for subsequent use as a pronoun;
(c) the index |f| also marks the phrase as denoting the recipient or location.
dam cikif librin dona; ni figusta.
dam-0 cik-i-f libr-i-n don-a
woman-S child-S-XF book-S-XN give-PST
The woman gave the child a book;
n-i f-i-gust-a
XN-S XF-S-like-PST
he liked it.
Toam Joanis vida; si ikusa.
Toam-0 Joan-i-s vid-a
Tom-S John-S-XS see-PST
Tom saw John;
s-i 0-i-kus-a
XS-S 3-S-hit-PST
he (Tom) hit him (John).
Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 12:08 am ((PDT))
> The spread of English as the national
> language of many different nations has been noted; one could
> also note the same of Spanish which IIRC is the official
> language of more than 20 nations.
The question is: are they really nations in the original sense, or was this
word reused with a new meaning? It seems to me that in US the word
"national" became a mere synonym of "federal".
So the discussion about a "nation" may be similar to a discussion about a
"gift" between an Englishman and a German. Both of them would think that the
other talks rubbish.
> Dustfinger quite pertinently asked: "Erm... What about
> Creoles?" Yes, indeed - the whole phenomenon of
> pidginization & creolization has been ignored and yet IMO it
> entirely relevant to any discussion about language and
> nationality.
I was speaking about survivig of a language and nation, whereas
pidginization & creolization represent possible ways of the birth of a new
one.
Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:01 am ((PDT))
On 7 August 2012 09:07, A. da Mek <a.da_m...@ufoni.cz> wrote:
> The spread of English as the national
>> language of many different nations has been noted; one could
>> also note the same of Spanish which IIRC is the official
>> language of more than 20 nations.
>>
>
> The question is: are they really nations in the original sense, or was
> this word reused with a new meaning?
That would depend on what the word "nation" in the "original sense" means.
Personally I've always felt it was one of those words that mean something
different for everyone, and thus not a useful word to use at all.
If indeed language is the DNA of a nation, does it mean that France, with
its nearly monolithic linguistic landscape, is a single nation? Yet I, as a
Normand, definitely *didn't* feel at home when I lived for 4 years in
Paris, and I was made very clear I didn't belong, despite my language being
undistinguishable from the language Parisians speak (really, they couldn't
tell from my speech that I wasn't born in Paris. But they could tell from
my behaviour). And anyway, what does "language" mean here? Is mutual
intelligibility enough to form a single "nation", or are dialectical
differences enough to separate "nations"? And anyway, everyone speaks a
little differently from their neighbour. Everyone has their own idiolect.
Does it mean everyone forms a nation of one?
Is a "nation" a bunch of people with a common culture then? But what does
"a common culture" mean? I've been living in the Netherlands for 11 years.
I've absorbed a lot of customs and habits from here. Am I now part of the
"Dutch nation"? Am I still part of the "French nation" or the "Normand
nation", due to me living there for more than 20 years, despite the feeling
each time I go back to France that I could never live there any longer? And
if we look at it more closely, really although I've absorbed a lot of Dutch
customs, I haven't absorbed them all, and my French background still has
some influence on my behaviour. Does it mean I have now an "idioculture",
and thus am a nation of one? Isn't everyone the same way?
Or maybe a "nation" is simply "a bunch of people who feel they belong
together" (as unclear that may be). But who decides who belongs together? I
myself feel I belong here in the Netherlands, but other people may disagree
that I belong purely due to the fact that I wasn't born here. Who's right?
Do I belong to the Dutch nation simply because I feel I do, or do I not
belong because other members of that nation feel that I don't? Aren't we
all accepted as peers by some and not by others?
What's a nation then? A bunch of people with a common language? A bunch of
people with a common culture? A bunch of peers? A single person?
Really, I just cannot fathom what "nation" means "in the original sense".
Everyone uses it differently, everyone means something different with it,
so I fail to see how useful it is. The modern use of the word "nation", as
a near synonym to "sovereign state" (as in "the United Nations"), however
politically charged it may be, is at least relatively well defined.
> It seems to me that in US the word "national" became a mere synonym of
> "federal".
> So the discussion about a "nation" may be similar to a discussion about a
> "gift" between an Englishman and a German. Both of them would think that
> the other talks rubbish.
>
>
Exactly.
ObConlang: in Moten, I cannot think of a word that comes close to the
English word "nation". _Status_ means "state" in the internationally legal
way, and is a borrowing anyway. Native Moten words with a similar meaning
seem all to be derived from the word _zunla_: place, location, and are more
geographical in meaning than political or social. There is the word
_venla_, which can in some contexts be translated as "people" or "nation"
or "tribe", but in others it means "crowd" and in others "population". It
basically means "a group of people considered together according to a set
of criteria clear from context or explicitly given". In any case, it
doesn't have the sociological baggage that the word "nation" has.
What words do your conlangs use to describe this complex area?
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 7:12 am ((PDT))
>> It need not be Iron Age; Middle Ages will be enough.
BTW, in the timeline of Bothflanks,
TA means not Third Age but Turquoise Age,
CA is not Copper Age but Cyan Age,
IA is not Iron Age but Indigo Age,
MA stands not for Middle Ages but for Magenta Age.
Per chance they all took time roughly of dozen centuries, except that CA was
twice so long, incorporating also the time which would be
otherwise the *Azure Age.
(The dozen centuries is equal to ten maximal lifespans of 120 years, and
also to three quadringenennial Gregorian cycles.)
Extrapolating this farther into the past, the Red Age should begin circa
11600 BC, but according to the radiocarbon data, the All Red period
(Allerød) began 12000 BC (14000 BP, calibrated). So either the Green Age or
Lime Age consisted exceptionaly of four quadringenennia instead of three.
The All Red period was per chance also 1200 years long, and the following
Orange Age, called also Younger Darkness (YD, *here* Younger Dryas) has
roughly the same length (1300 ± 70 years).
(Older Darkness ended with the creation of the Lamps and Younger Darkness is
the time between the destroying of the Lamps and creation of the Sun. The
radiocarbon data also show that the Valian years were equal not to 10 solar
years, but to 10 months.)
(It is not known to me by what the world was lit between the Oldest Darkness
and the Older Darkness, nor what the gods were Boiling during that period.)
> The point being, for English to truly
break up the way Latin did, you'd really need to get rid of what is keeping
it together, and that is mostly technology and widespread education.
>
When the magnetic field reversal will come, the intensity of the magnetic
field will drop to 10% and our electronic will be affected by the solar
wind, we will see of what our technology will be worth.
> All I'm saying is that education, technology and
media have a damping effect on what would otherwise change quite naturally
at a much faster rate.
>
Yes, the conditions of the evolution of languages changed radically from the
times of the Roman empire; first at the end of Middle Ages with the
invention of printing, which helped to stabilise the written form (although
some old
books are now hardly readable due to outdated font, even if their language
is relatively modern), and then with the broadcast, TV and movies.
And even without the audio media, the change of the language fixed in its
written form cannot go farther than to a relex with the same word order.
> Honestly, you're talking about a country that has
an officially sanctioned discrimination / repression doctrine. How on
earth are any would-be Egyptian Pagans going to fare if they try to
revive the old religion there?
The current dominant religion and culture is extremely monolithic
and extremely discriminatory against what is viewed as idolatry.
>
That is what I meant: How is it possible that in a country with a tradition
more than four thousand years old, with all these pyramids on eyes of
everyone, could prevail a relatively recent foreign culture? I wonder what
percentage of contemporary dwellers of Egypt are autochtononous
people a how many of them are descendants of Arabic or Turkic immigrants.
(Wikipedia says: "94% of the total population call themselves 'ethnic
Egyptians'; though the term 'ethnic Egyptian' is controversial." So I am not
sure what this means; after all, Americans call themselves also
'Americans'.)
>> Old English, completely unintelligible to modern speakers,
>
> No -- or rather, it depends. A simple text with words common to both ends
of the spectrum is pretty transparent:
>
Yes, and moreover, even if the vocabulary changes, the language keeps its
identity if its grammar and core vocabulary remains unchanged.
Concerning the nationality in the Migration Period and its transition to
Early Middle Ages, probably there was not enough time to constitute a nation
before a next wave of invaders arrived.
Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: Nations
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 7:54 am ((PDT))
On 07/08/2012 08:07, A. da Mek wrote:
>> The spread of English as the national language of many
>> different nations has been noted; one could also note
>> the same of Spanish which IIRC is the official language
>> of more than 20 nations.
>
> The question is: are they really nations in the original
> sense, or was this word reused with a new meaning?
Hey, my anglophone cousins across the Pond!
Seems like Abe was reusing "nation" with a new meaning at
Gettysburg:
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on
this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and
dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
You ain't a nation in the original sense at all, just a ....
> It seems to me that in US the word "national" became a
> mere synonym of "federal".
... a federation of 50 States.
I guess old Abe should have said:
"Eighty seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this
continent a new federation of states, conceived in liberty,
and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created
equal."
What claptrap!
By what sophistry will it be claimed that Canada, Australia,
New Zealand, Mexico, Peru, Argentina etc etc etc are not
nations?
==================================================
On 07/08/2012 09:01, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 7 August 2012 09:07, A. da Mek wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> That would depend on what the word "nation" in the
> "original sense" means.
Who decides what the original sense was?
Is it the original meaning of the English word "nation" (as
we are writing in English?). As some know, it was not
always spelled that way; in Middle English it was "nacioun",
being derived from Old French. So is the original meaning
that of "nacio(u)n" in the 12th century? Or should we go
back to the first attestation of the word in French?
The French word, as we know, derives ultimately from Latin
_nÄtiÅ_ (genitive: nÄtiÅnis). Maybe that is the original
meaning?
Ah, _nÄtiÅ_ originally meant "birth" :)
It came to develop a more generally meaning "breed, stock,
kind, species, race" - but that was not a common use. In
the Classical period it meant more specifically a distant or
barbarous 'people', or 'nation'; i.e. just as the Hebrews
had divided the world into themselves and gentiles, and the
Greeks into Greeks and _barbaroi_, so the Romans divided the
world between those fortunate peoples who lived within the
PÄx RÅmÄna and those unfortunate "nÄtiÅnÄs" that did not.
> Personally I've always felt it was one of those words
> that mean something different for everyone, and thus not
> a useful word to use at all.
It is not unuseful IMO, as long as we are aware of the
context in which the word is used and do not twist its
meaning.
But defining "nation" is not trivial and, as I wrote before,
a weighty tome could be written on the subject. Indeed, if
one looks back in the Conlang archives one will find that
the meaning of 'nation' has been discussed before.
> If indeed language is the DNA of a nation,
IMO it ain't. Indeed, the whole notion fills me with dismay.
It was that kind of thinking that led Hitler to claim the
Sudetenland and, sadly, has led to many other horrors. To
me it is more than sad when I find the language I once knew
as Serbo-Croat is now reckoned by some as three different
languages: Croatian, Serbia & Bosnian.
[snip]
Although I qualify Christophe's "thus not a useful word to
use at all," I am basically in agreement with most of the
rest of Christophe's email.
Personally I find the notion _language â nation_ utterly
repulsive.
I think I had better finish. I have, perhaps, already
strayed too far into NCNC territory, and certainly would if
I continued further in this thread.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (5)
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3e. Re: Nations (was: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 8:10 am ((PDT))
On 7 August 2012 16:12, A. da Mek <a.da_m...@ufoni.cz> wrote:
> And even without the audio media, the change of the language fixed in its
> written form cannot go farther than to a relex with the same word order.
>
>
If you believe that, then you've never looked at written/spoken diglossias.
Having a fixed written language does nothing to keep the spoken language
from changing, and indeed, those changes may very well include complete
changes in grammar, including word order. If you don't believe me, have a
look at the diglossia between Written French and Spoken French. The two
variants are already well on their way to become two separate languages,
and intelligibility between the two is already not guaranteed anymore.
Moreover, modern Spoken French has become quite a different beast, nearly
(though not completely) polysynthetic in its grammar, featuring a
topic-comment sentence structure, and relatively free word order (well,
phrase order, at least). Quite a difference from the relatively rigid SVO
Romance grammar of Written French.
And the language changes that resulted in such a difference are still
active today, despite universal education and the omnipresence of the
written word in France!
A fixed written language is only that: a fixed written language. In
practice, it has hardly any effect in slowing down the evolution of the
spoken language. At best, it has some limited effect on the vocabulary of
the spoken language in formal registers.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (5)
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