There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2a. Choosing a word for "German"
From: Scott Villanueva-Hlad
2b. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: C. Brickner
2c. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Kelvin Jackson
2d. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Scott Villanueva-Hlad
2e. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Scott Villanueva-Hlad
2f. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Padraic Brown
2g. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: R A Brown
3.1. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Jonathan Beagley
3.2. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Aidan Grey
3.3. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3.4. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 4:30 pm ((PDT))
On 4 September 2013 01:05, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> A simple internet search - not even delving into journals of medicine or
> neurology - quickly demonstrates that you don't have the slightest idea
> what you're talking about.
Because *you* are the world's expert on these issues, right? Rather than a
sad victim of confirmation bias.
> And you didn't even have the integrity to keep
> to your promise not to respond to me ever again. Tsk tsk.
>
>
Where did I promise anything? Point out where I said: "I promise to never
respond to you again". You won't find it. If I don't say "I promise", then
I don't promise anything. It's reading comprehension 101.
> If you want to make the case that left-handed people are just as bright and
> healthy as right-handed ones, your personal behavior is hardly helping.
>
>
Yeah, please resort to ad hominems, that really helps your case. this is
really over the line here. You don't know me. You don't know what I do. And
you certainly have no idea how bright and healthy I am (probably more than
you'll ever be, in both cases). So don't start here, as you'll lose for
sure.
> We now return to the topic of constructed languages.
>
>
Please do, not that you've ever had anything worthy to say on that subject.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (21)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Scott Villanueva-Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 4:57 pm ((PDT))
Hello everyone.
For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German.
Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I
have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I
see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:
D, T, G, A, N, S, V.
D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.
G: appears to come from Latin Germanus
A: appears to be from Latin Alaman
N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to
be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
S: I presume derives from Saxon
V: I have no references for Baltic languages.
It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it
maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or
Old Prussian: Prūsa)
Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N
and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?
My study list of names follows my signature.
Thanks everyone,
Scott
Afrikaans: Duitse
Dutch: Duits
German: Deutsch
Yiddish: דייַטש
Danish: tysk
Icelandic: Þýska
Norwegian: tysk
Swedish: tyska
Albanian: gjermanisht
English: German
Esperanto: germane
Greek: Γερμανός
Italian: germano
Macedonian: германски
Basque: Alemaniako
Catalan: alemany
French: allemand
Galician : alemán
Portuguese: alemão
Spanish: alemán
Welsh: Almaeneg
Belasusian: нямецкі
Bosnian: njemački
Bulgarian: немски
Croat: njemački
Czech: Němec
Hungarian: német
Polish: niemiecki
Russian: немецкий
Serbian: немачки
Slovak: Nemec
Slovene: nemški
Ukrainian: німецький
Estonian: saksa
Finnish: saksa
Latvian: vācu
Lithuanian: Vokietijos
Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "C. Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:28 pm ((PDT))
I should think that the Italian "tedesco" would belong to the D group.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
Hello everyone.
For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German.
Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I
have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I
see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:
D, T, G, A, N, S, V.
D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.
G: appears to come from Latin Germanus
A: appears to be from Latin Alaman
N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to
be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
S: I presume derives from Saxon
V: I have no references for Baltic languages.
It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it
maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or
Old Prussian: Prūsa)
Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N
and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?
My study list of names follows my signature.
Thanks everyone,
Scott
Afrikaans: Duitse
Dutch: Duits
German: Deutsch
Yiddish: דייַטש
Danish: tysk
Icelandic: Þýska
Norwegian: tysk
Swedish: tyska
Albanian: gjermanisht
English: German
Esperanto: germane
Greek: Γερμανός
Italian: germano
Macedonian: германски
Basque: Alemaniako
Catalan: alemany
French: allemand
Galician : alemán
Portuguese: alemão
Spanish: alemán
Welsh: Almaeneg
Belasusian: нямецкі
Bosnian: njemački
Bulgarian: немски
Croat: njemački
Czech: Němec
Hungarian: német
Polish: niemiecki
Russian: немецкий
Serbian: немачки
Slovak: Nemec
Slovene: nemški
Ukrainian: німецький
Estonian: saksa
Finnish: saksa
Latvian: vācu
Lithuanian: Vokietijos
Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Kelvin Jackson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:35 pm ((PDT))
On Sep 3, 2013, at 19:57, Scott Villanueva-Hlad <[email protected]>
>
> N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources � but seems
> to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
In Russian, the word for "German" (�����) comes from the root for "mute"
(���-), presumably because the Russians couldn't understand the way the Germans
spoke. You could certainly borrow this word, but you might also want to
consider using a native word for "mute" or some similar concept that your
conculture associates with Germans.
-Kelvin
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Scott Villanueva-Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:58 pm ((PDT))
Thanks Charlie!
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of C. Brickner
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"
I should think that the Italian "tedesco" would belong to the D group.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
Hello everyone.
For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German.
Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I
have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I
see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:
D, T, G, A, N, S, V.
D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.
G: appears to come from Latin Germanus
A: appears to be from Latin Alaman
N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to
be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
S: I presume derives from Saxon
V: I have no references for Baltic languages.
It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it
maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or
Old Prussian: Prūsa)
Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N
and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?
My study list of names follows my signature.
Thanks everyone,
Scott
Afrikaans: Duitse
Dutch: Duits
German: Deutsch
Yiddish: דייַטש
Danish: tysk
Icelandic: Þýska
Norwegian: tysk
Swedish: tyska
Albanian: gjermanisht
English: German
Esperanto: germane
Greek: Γερμανός
Italian: germano
Macedonian: германски
Basque: Alemaniako
Catalan: alemany
French: allemand
Galician : alemán
Portuguese: alemão
Spanish: alemán
Welsh: Almaeneg
Belasusian: нямецкі
Bosnian: njemački
Bulgarian: немски
Croat: njemački
Czech: Němec
Hungarian: német
Polish: niemiecki
Russian: немецкий
Serbian: немачки
Slovak: Nemec
Slovene: nemški
Ukrainian: німецький
Estonian: saksa
Finnish: saksa
Latvian: vācu
Lithuanian: Vokietijos
Messages in this topic (7)
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2e. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Scott Villanueva-Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:59 pm ((PDT))
Mute? Really? I've always wondered. That is quite fascinating and a great
idea!
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Kelvin Jackson
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"
On Sep 3, 2013, at 19:57, Scott Villanueva-Hlad <[email protected]>
>
> N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources - but
seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
In Russian, the word for "German" (�����) comes from the root for "mute"
(���-), presumably because the Russians couldn't understand the way the
Germans spoke. You could certainly borrow this word, but you might also want
to consider using a native word for "mute" or some similar concept that your
conculture associates with Germans.
-Kelvin
Messages in this topic (7)
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2f. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 7:51 pm ((PDT))
A couple questions to consider: where exactly in central-eastern Europe? and
when do the proto-Asirkans
come in contact with Germanic speakers? If the timing is right, you might
consider basing the name on the
Goths, who were wandering towards the south and east in the 200s or
thereabouts. The same folks
Wulfilas will later translate the Bible for. I think Allemand etc come from
Latin Alemanni, which was the
name of a tribe that, if I recall properly, the Romans met early on. I guess
the name stuck and got
perpetrated long after other tribes rose to prominence in Western Europe
(Franks, Visigoths, Lombards,
etc). Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from where the Romans
would have met the
Alemanni, it wouldn't make much sense (to me) for them to use that name. If
they met Germanics early
enough, they might predate any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms. On the other hand,
the saks- name could
come from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is, after all, what gives
us Saxon). Perhaps you
could use a Gothic word for knife or sword. I know of hairus (sword). I've also
seen mêkeis. Perhaps
one of those could serve, if your proto-Asirkans had been harried by Gothic
warriors and their
pointy weapons!
Padraic
>________________________________
> From: C. Brickner <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Tuesday, 3 September 2013, 20:27
>Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"
>
>
>I should think that the Italian "tedesco" would belong to the D group.
>Charlie
>
>----- Original Message -----
>Hello everyone.
>
>For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for
>German. Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern
>European. I have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has
>rendered. I see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first
>letter:
>
>
>
>D, T, G, A, N, S, V.
>
>
>
>D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.
>
>G: appears to come from Latin Germanus
>
>A: appears to be from Latin Alaman
>
>N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems
>to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
>
>S: I presume derives from Saxon
>
>V: I have no references for Baltic languages.
>
>
>
>It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it
>maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or
>Old Prussian: Prūsa)
>
>
>
>Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the
>N and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?
>
>
>
>My study list of names follows my signature.
>
>
>
>Thanks everyone,
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Afrikaans: Duitse
>
>Dutch: Duits
>
>German: Deutsch
>
>Yiddish: דייַטש
>
>
>
>Danish: tysk
>
>Icelandic: Þýska
>
>Norwegian: tysk
>
>Swedish: tyska
>
>
>
>Albanian: gjermanisht
>
>English: German
>
>Esperanto: germane
>
>Greek: Γερμανός
>
>Italian: germano
>
>Macedonian: германски
>
>
>
>
>
>Basque: Alemaniako
>
>Catalan: alemany
>
>French: allemand
>
>Galician : alemán
>
>Portuguese: alemão
>
>Spanish: alemán
>
>Welsh: Almaeneg
>
>
>
>
>
>Belasusian: нямецкі
>
>Bosnian: njemački
>
>Bulgarian: немски
>
>Croat: njemački
>
>Czech: Němec
>
>Hungarian: német
>
>Polish: niemiecki
>
>Russian: немецкий
>
>Serbian: немачки
>
>Slovak: Nemec
>
>Slovene: nemški
>
>Ukrainian: німецький
>
>
>
>Estonian: saksa
>
>Finnish: saksa
>
>
>
>Latvian: vācu
>
>Lithuanian: Vokietijos
>
>
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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2g. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 12:37 am ((PDT))
On 04/09/2013 03:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
> A couple questions to consider: where exactly in
> central-eastern Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans
> come in contact with Germanic speakers?
Quite so! Both are important.
The Slave -nem-_ names, e.g. came about because the
contacts between Slav and Germans were not exactly friendly.
Calling them "mutes", i.e. people who don't speak properly,
is hostile or at best unfriendly. it's like the way the
ancient Greeks called non-Greeks _barbaroi_ - their speech
just sounded like "bar bar ..."
The Alaman- group are simply naming all the Germans from the
'tribe'/group they first encountered, i.e. Alemanni ("all
men") who broke through the Roman limes in 213 and expanded
during the 3rd century, raiding the Roman provinces and
settling on the left bank of the Rhine from the 4th century.
Similarly the Romans called all the Hellenes "Graeci",
because the Graeci were the first group they made serious
contact with; hence we now normally call them Greeks, not
Hellenes ;)
Presumably it is fir similar reasons that you have Estonian
& Finnish _saksa_, the Saxons being the main group these
people first encountered. I don't know the origin of the
Latvian and Lithuanian words, but I suspect it probably
derives from the name of another Germanic 'tribe'.
The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with
these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the
origin of the Latin term is not certain).
The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Þýska,
tedesco - all derive from Proto-Germanic *þiud- / *þeud-
"the people." This would be used if the Asirkans actually
encountered the Germans more or less peaceably through trade
and actually conversed with them and knew what they called
themselves. Interesting there is a medieval Latin adjective
_theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."
So it really all depends where, when and how the Asirkans
first encountered Germanic peoples.
> If the timing is right, you might consider basing the
> name on the Goths,
Possible - it would be a first, but why not?
[snip]
> Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from
> where the Romans would have met the Alemanni, it
> wouldn't make much sense (to me) for them to use that
> name.
Exactly - if you want Asirkans to sound plausible, they are
not going to be using the Alemanni name.
> If they met Germanics early enough, they might predate
> any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms.
I think they would use _German-_ name only if (a) they did
not have direct contact with the Germanic peoples, and (b)
they had strong Latin influence. Probably both are
unlikely. To take up the Slav name would be likely only if
the Asirkans had strong connexions with Slaves and, probably,
somewhat hostile encounters with the Germanic peoples.
. On the other hand, the saks- name could come
> from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is,
> after all, what gives us Saxon).
maybe - but I'm sure the Fins and Estonians were as unaware
of that as were the Welsh who call us English 'Saeson", i.e.
Saxons. It's from the tribal name, whatever its Germanic
origin may have been.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________
3.1. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Jonathan Beagley" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:32 pm ((PDT))
> putain de > ta*- (* induces 'nasailization', a remnant of the nasal vowel)
> so tadava 'nicotine'< ta 'bad, unwanted, derogatory' + tava< tabac ... or
> something. :) Again, sound changes ain't done yet. :)
>
This seems very realistic to me. I have a friend who often writes "tain"
instead of "putain", so it makes sense to me to see the first syllable
disappear.
2013/9/3 Alex Fink <[email protected]>
> On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 13:05:52 -0600, Aidan Grey <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Given that le/la would merge with the few sound changes i have figured out
> >at the moment, and since liaison would be obliterated by analogy, and
> >gender-political pressures... I think gender might end up disappearing as
> >a useful category in Wassa...
>
> Would it survive in verbal inflexion, though? _il_ and _elle_ might not
> merge. And that ought to be enough to make persist the category.
>
>
>
This is perhaps already happening to a certain extent in Spoken French. You
will from time to time here sentences of the following style (featuring
dislocation):
Les gamins, ça sert à rien
Les femmes, ça pue
Des arbres, ça attire les oiseaux (this example comes from the article
linked below)
Even though "les gosses" and "les femmes" are both gendered nouns, they can
be referred to with neuter "ça". This, arguably, has a dehumanizing effect
and I find that when used with people, in particular, it is derogatory, but
I am not a native speaker, so this judgment may not be accurate. ;) This
is, however, a relatively common phenomenon in Spoken French.
(For an academic article on this phenomenon, check out this:
http://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr&lr=&id=4aZ73desIZsC&oi=fnd&pg=PA95&dq=%C3%A7a+g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rique&ots=mvDkZO4be6&sig=wCvQQUq7btnA-b1sjGVSLk5pW0s#v=onepage&q=%C3%A7a%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rique&f=false
)
> On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 12:44:16 -0600, Aidan Grey <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I think this means that for Wassa the genders will be analogized across
> the
> >board (the current generic patterns will take over fully). In practice,
> >this will mean that -n and -s, for example, make a feminine noun (atà
> >'author' > atas 'female author'. ) Because final consonants are retained
> in
> >feminine nouns, that will be the major distinction. Liasion will generally
> >disappear, but with an analogical/generic epenthetic k (from the ? glottal
> >stops at the end of words < /x/ < /R/) before vowels only - or possibly,
> >ALL vowel initial adjectives will move to k- (e.g. kahteshu 'arterial' as
> >in sa kahteshu 'arterial blood' ).
>
> Is /R/ in fact the most frequent liaising consonant in present spoken
> French? My guess (through experience only with book French) would've been
> that it's /z/, with one of /n R t/ in second -- and for that matter, that
> something like /t/ is the most "unmarked", whatever in the world that
> means. Or does the syntactic distribution in contexts that survive into
> Wassa somehow tilt this?
>
My intuition is that the "default" liaison in French would be /z/ for oral
vowels and /n/ for nasal vowels. If you take the example _trop_, you will
find that the standard liaison is, of course, with /p/. However, in Spoken
French you will occasionally hear this realized as /z/ instead. Nasal
vowels will, inevitably, take /n/ as their liaison.
>
> Are you really positing /x/ > /?/ > /k/? It feels a stretch to me, and
> Duke-of-Yorky besides. It's extremely hard to resurrect a glottal stop
> into anything with oral obstruction, so I suppose that part has to be a
> reversal of direction of an original change [k] > [?] of some sort. And
> it's strange too for the continuant [x] to go to the noncontinuant [?],
> rather than [h].
>
> What does _kahteshu_ represent phone*ically? (I kinda hope "sh" isn't a
> digraph for [S]; if you ask me it's a gross one, and current French
> orthography's "ch" for [S] is much more aligned with the grain of the Roman
> alphabet in its gamut of usage.)
>
> Eh, I might as well come out and ask the whole question: what are your
> posited sound changes?
>
> Alex
>
On 3 September 2013 16:41, Jonathan Beagley <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Speaking of masculine and feminine variants, I am consistently at a loss
> > when it comes to "médecin". My doctor is female, so this is frequently an
> > issue for me. I generally say, "le médecin" and then use the pronoun
> _elle_
> > to refer to her subsequently, but this seems awkward. I know one
> > work-around is "femme médecin", but it's such a bloody awkward expression
> > that I can never bring myself to use it.
> >
> >
> Yeah, that's an awkward one. The official solution is to make "médecin"
> epicene, i.e. you're allowed to say "la médecin". If you still find that
> awkward, you could always use the feminine form of "docteur": "doctoresse".
> Although that form is not often used.
>
> I wasn't aware that the official solution was "la médecin". I could try
it, but I'm sure my friends will balk at that one. ;)
<snip>
> >
> Another note is that many of the doubled vowels are apparently indicators
> of vocalic gemination in certain parts of France (according to some of my
> professors and/or reading I've done, but I haven't been able to confirm
> this), so that there is indeed a difference between, for example, _viré_
> and _virée_.
>
>
> I'm not aware of those. I'm aware of some cases of vocalic gemination, but
> they are all expressive, i.e. purely prosodic effects rather than
> grammatical markers.
>
> I unfortunately have no solid reference to confirm this.
>
> >
> > Another difference I have noticed is with indirect questions.
> >
> > Standard Written French: Je lui ai demandé combien c'était
> > Spoken French: Je lui ai demandé c'était combien
> >
> > The first time I heard this was from a friend of mine from Martinique
> and I
> > assumed it was a dialectal thing, but I have since heard the same
> > construction relatively often from my boyfriend who has spent his life
> > between Rennes and Toulouse.
> >
> >
> I've never heard that one.
>
>
> > You will also get things like:
> >
> > Standard Written French: Je lui ai demandé ce qu'il avait fait
> > Spoken French: Je lui ai demandé qu'est-ce qu'il avait fait
> >
> >
> That one, however, is relatively common as far as I know.
>
>
Ironically, I would've said the opposite! I had learned to watch out for
this second construction, but I rarely encounter it myself.
>
> > In other words, the "normal" interrogative structure is maintained and
> > simply embedded in the main clause.
> >
> >
> Except for yes-no questions, which still use the conjunction "si".
>
Agreed. I've yet to hear any variations as far as embedded yes-no questions
go.
>
> On 3 September 2013 21:05, Aidan Grey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm really interested in these, because if I go polypersonal on verbs, I
> > need to figure out how to handle these situations - questions, commands,
> > indirect statements, etc.
> >
> > When using the polypersonal stuff in SF, how do the general questions get
> > handled?
>
>
> Like declarative sentences mostly, as questions and declarative sentences
> in Spoken French are often identical besides intonation. There are some
> complications, like the post-clitic "-ti", whose position and distribution
> I'm not sure about, but it often appears after the verb.
>
>
> > What about commands? How does one say, for example, "give it to
> > him"?
> >
> >
> As in Standard French: "donne-le-lui". Although actually, Spoken French
> will often use "ça" to render "it" here, so the result would be "donne-lui
> ça" (although written separately, "ça" here is at least a clitic, maybe a
> suffix). The difference with standard French is that if for instance the
> object is separately mentioned as a noun phrase, it will still be indicated
> in the verbal complex, unless it directly follows it (in which case the
> object noun phrase will fall under the verbal accentuation, which
> effectively makes it into an incorporated object).
>
Agreed. In certain (particularly southern) dialects you may also find the
order of the pronouns inverted, leading to sentences like: "Donne-moi-le"
or "Je lui l'ai dit" instead of "Donne-le-moi" or "Je le lui ai dit". I
would agree with Christophe though that the most common solution is to
simply replace "le" or "la" with "ça".
Jonathan
Messages in this topic (46)
________________________________________________________________________
3.2. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Aidan Grey" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 7:47 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Jonathan Beagley <[email protected]
> wrote:
> > putain de > ta*- (* induces 'nasailization', a remnant of the nasal
> vowel)
> > so tadava 'nicotine'< ta 'bad, unwanted, derogatory' + tava< tabac ... or
> > something. :) Again, sound changes ain't done yet. :)
> >
>
> This seems very realistic to me. I have a friend who often writes "tain"
> instead of "putain", so it makes sense to me to see the first syllable
> disappear.
It is inspired by Kréyol ti = Fr. petit as well as English pterosaur (/t-/)
once the weak vowel drops and puts p and t together...
> I would agree with Christophe though that the most common solution is to
> simply replace "le" or "la" with "ça".
>
>
I am thinking to have la and sa as 3rd sg., but different cases, one nom,
one acc/dat., or some combination thereof.
Messages in this topic (46)
________________________________________________________________________
3.3. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 11:40 pm ((PDT))
On 4 September 2013 02:32, Jonathan Beagley <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> This seems very realistic to me. I have a friend who often writes "tain"
> instead of "putain", so it makes sense to me to see the first syllable
> disappear.
>
>
Yeah, since the French stress is noun-phrase-final, and French is happy
with relatively complex initial clusters, it's common for the vowel of the
first syllable of words and phrases to get shortened to the point of
disappearance, in which case the accompanying consonants may follow as well
(although not necessarily).
> This is perhaps already happening to a certain extent in Spoken French. You
> will from time to time here sentences of the following style (featuring
> dislocation):
>
> Les gamins, ça sert à rien
> Les femmes, ça pue
> Des arbres, ça attire les oiseaux (this example comes from the article
> linked below)
>
> Even though "les gosses" and "les femmes" are both gendered nouns, they can
> be referred to with neuter "ça". This, arguably, has a dehumanizing effect
> and I find that when used with people, in particular, it is derogatory, but
> I am not a native speaker, so this judgment may not be accurate. ;)
I believe it is. _ça_, after all, is normally strictly inanimate. I've
heard such sentences as well, but when used with people they are always
derogatory (i.e. you will never hear them being used to make a compliment
:P).
> This
> is, however, a relatively common phenomenon in Spoken French.
>
>
Agreed. With inanimate referents, it might even more common than using _il_
or _elle_.
> (For an academic article on this phenomenon, check out this:
>
> http://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr&lr=&id=4aZ73desIZsC&oi=fnd&pg=PA95&dq=%C3%A7a+g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rique&ots=mvDkZO4be6&sig=wCvQQUq7btnA-b1sjGVSLk5pW0s#v=onepage&q=%C3%A7a%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rique&f=false
> )
>
>
> My intuition is that the "default" liaison in French would be /z/ for oral
> vowels and /n/ for nasal vowels. If you take the example _trop_, you will
> find that the standard liaison is, of course, with /p/. However, in Spoken
> French you will occasionally hear this realized as /z/ instead. Nasal
> vowels will, inevitably, take /n/ as their liaison.
>
>
Agreed. You will even sometimes hear /n/ liaison when one would expect /z/
instead. Children, especially, are known to mess up their liaisons quite
often (another piece of evidence that it is a grammatical rather than
phonological feature). This can also be done tongue in cheek, like the
title of a great theatre comedy from the 90's: _le gros n'avion_ ("the Big
Plane". the _n'_ indicates /n/ liaison instead of the expected /z/ liaison.
The effect is somewhat childish, and thus comical :)).
Lots of effects can be achieved in Spoken French by misapplying,
over-applying or omit liaison :). I bet there must have been some
linguistic article about that somewhere :).
> > >
> > Yeah, that's an awkward one. The official solution is to make "médecin"
> > epicene, i.e. you're allowed to say "la médecin". If you still find that
> > awkward, you could always use the feminine form of "docteur":
> "doctoresse".
> > Although that form is not often used.
> >
> > I wasn't aware that the official solution was "la médecin". I could try
> it, but I'm sure my friends will balk at that one. ;)
>
>
Could be, but they will probably accept it faster than "assureuse" as the
feminine of "assureur"!
Typical of those changes imposed by the Academy, right? :P
>
> > I'm not aware of those. I'm aware of some cases of vocalic gemination,
> but
> > they are all expressive, i.e. purely prosodic effects rather than
> > grammatical markers.
> >
> > I unfortunately have no solid reference to confirm this.
>
>
Oh, it *could* be happening. I've just never heard it. I am aware of final
vowel gemination for emphasis (which competes with /əː/-paragoge, a
phenomenon that can also happen with words ending in consonants), but I've
never heard the feminine -e of words like _virée_ actually pronounced. It
could be happening though, I've not been everywhere in France :P.
> >
> > > You will also get things like:
> > >
> > > Standard Written French: Je lui ai demandé ce qu'il avait fait
> > > Spoken French: Je lui ai demandé qu'est-ce qu'il avait fait
> > >
> > >
> > That one, however, is relatively common as far as I know.
> >
> >
> Ironically, I would've said the opposite! I had learned to watch out for
> this second construction, but I rarely encounter it myself.
>
>
Strange. I've often heard indirect speech using _est-ce que_. It's pretty
normal where I come from (Normandy). But not using question words as
conjunctions in indirect speech is something I'm not aware of. It doesn't
sound far-fetched, just not something I've heard.
>
> Agreed. In certain (particularly southern) dialects you may also find the
> order of the pronouns inverted, leading to sentences like: "Donne-moi-le"
> or "Je lui l'ai dit" instead of "Donne-le-moi" or "Je le lui ai dit".
Yes, such inversions happen indeed. AFAIK speakers tend to stick with one
order, i.e. a speaker who says "donne-le-moi" will normally never be heard
saying "donne-moi-le", and vice versa (well, except that a speaker in the
"donne-moi-le" camp may be heard saying "donne-le-moi" when reading
something in Standard Written French, but I count that as code-switching
:P). Per speaker the order of personal markings is strict. It just varies
from speaker to speaker.
> I
> would agree with Christophe though that the most common solution is to
> simply replace "le" or "la" with "ça".
>
>
Yep.
On 4 September 2013 04:47, Aidan Grey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I would agree with Christophe though that the most common solution is to
> > simply replace "le" or "la" with "ça".
> >
> >
> I am thinking to have la and sa as 3rd sg., but different cases, one nom,
> one acc/dat., or some combination thereof.
>
Could happen. I'm not sure about the distribution of _ça_ with an expressed
noun phrase, i.e. whether it's more common in subject or object position.
My gut instinct says object position, but I could be wrong. Also, I'm not
aware of _ça_ used in object position to refer to persons (if it happens,
it's probably very markedly pejorative, even more than _ça_ as subject with
a person as referent).
If you lose the gender distinctions otherwise, you might keep them in
verbal agreement markings only, and actually introduce a
masculine/feminine/neuter distinction there à la English he/she/it. It
would probably (for the subject agreement prefixes anyway) sound like
i/e/sa.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (46)
________________________________________________________________________
3.4. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 4, 2013 5:04 am ((PDT))
2013/9/1 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]>:
> On 31 August 2013 01:20, Jonathan Beagley <[email protected]>wrote:
>
[...]
>
>> Muller has written a book on French syntax: the examples you will see there
>> are not based on any corpus but are merely created by Muller himself as
>> examples of "grammatical French."
>>
>>
> In any other field of science, such behaviour would be called "making up
> data", or as we like to call it succinctly "fraud". Someone who would do
> that would not only be fired before they reached retirement age, they would
> also actively be prosecuted and could risk fines or even prison, depending
> on the level of fraud one is talking about. The simple fact that someone
> like that could even *teach* tells us clearly how far linguistics is from
> being a true science, unfortunately :(.
I think that's why, at least in Brazil, people distinguish
grammaticians (prescriptivists) from linguists (descriptivists,
researchers):
http://cienciahoje.uol.com.br/colunas/palavreado/linguistas-e-gramaticos
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=429440
Messages in this topic (46)
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