remove all rivets, strip inside and out,check corrosion, acceptable, use aerospace polymer systems, Thiokol MC-236B2 intrgral fuel tank sealant will withstand any flyids, coat about 1 inch wide and 1/8' thick over rivet holes. clecko together yhen rivet as you remove cleckos. will take about 24 hours to setup. this is a 2 part sealant. coyt
----- Original Message ----- From: coupers-digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 4:31 PM Subject: coupers-digest V1 #287 > > coupers-digest Friday, December 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 287 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:15:32 -0800 > From: jollyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Tank Sealant > > has anyone tried POR...you read about it in Hemmings mag.....no, it isn't > (approved, pma'd stc'd ect.) but let me tell you it world on auto bodies...I used > the last of mine up on the last restoration I had , or I would try it on a old aul. > tank....it sure would be a WHOLE lot safer. and less wear and tear on nerves than > trying to "weld" something to the gas tank....shudder shudder....I saw what > happened to a gentleman who tried to use a flame to "fix" a gas tank on a coupe, > once...he no longer sees, and a couple of fingers are missing...He filled the tank > with water AND used car exhaust!...jolly in aurora, or. > > Syd Cohen wrote: > > > Bill, here are a few more thoughts on your reply: > > > > William W Ducharme wrote: > > > > > If you pump carbon monozide (car > > > exhaust or other inert gas) into the tank while welding I'm told it's > > > perfectly safe. > > > > Carbon monoxide is not an inert gas. It does burn with a blue flame. Argon is > > used as an inert gas for welding tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > Do you (does anyone) think soldering the rivets is worth a try. Seems > > > to me if it worked (big if) it would be a more permanent solution for > > > weeping rivets short of a total rebuild at $300 per tank or more. > > > > Does solder stick to aluminum? I've never had any luck doing that. Your > > original idea about the paint may be better if indeed you have no corrosion. > > The sealant, if put in properly should have lasted longer than it apparently > > has. The key word, I guess, is "properly." Good luck on your project. > > > > Syd Cohen > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:43:35 -0800 > From: "Ron Burke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: An Effort to Change the subject > > I dared to fill my 3 yes 3 gas tanks yesterday, and around 5:pm after a > through pre-flight I jumpped into N2273H. > If you can believe this started her enging and accually taxied her to the > run up area and ran her up. > After checking all of her insterments I let her engine warm up a bit, then > took matters into my own hand and rolled her > onto runway 16 here at Spanaway, WA. and pushed the throttle all the way in. > At 80mph I pulled back just a little on the wheel and she began to fly. > Here it is December 2, 1999 it is 5:00pm (dark), the OAT is reading 40, I > have a box of Ritz Crackers and a 1/2 Diet Pepsi, full fuel and no where > really to go. IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER. > > I guess my point is DOES ANYONE ELSE FLY ???? > > Here is what the list has helped me figure out > > 1. 30 gallon tanks - BAD, cost WAY to much and no gain, The Ercoupe was > purpose built, and built WELL. > 2. Tank Sloshing stuff used to repair a leaking tank - BAD, fix it right. > 3. Computer Viruses - BAD, do not open any EXE sent to teh group no matter > how cute. > 4. Forwarding cute files to the group - BAD, they will have viruses, and > they probly get the file anyway. > 5. The Tail Up spacer - GOOD, ground handling and transition to and from > flight GREAT. > 6. Meeting other Coupers and working on coupes togather - GOOD, fun and > rewarding. > 7. A project Coupe - BAD, A project will always take at least twice the time > and money stated by the guy selling the project. > 8. A compleatly rebuilt coupe that only needs seat belts and a Gyro - BAD, > it is still a project, see #7 > 9. Buying a project coupe with plans to put a subru engine in it - BAD, best > comment would be mis-guided. > 10. Useing the list to set up a meeting place to fly to, GOOD, I enjoy > FLYING out and meeting other Coupers. > > Ron > N2273H my '46-D > N5671L my '69 AA-1 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:24:32 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: coupers-digest V1 #286 > > I should have said that my header tank was removed, EMPTIED, FLUSHED, > CLEARED OF FUEL AND VAPORS, before the soldering operation was performed. > Use common sense, use an A & P, be legal and safe. > Thanks. > > Skipper > 99398 > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Why pay more to get Web access? > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:48:11 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: coupers-digest V1 #286 > > Ed mentioned a safer center tank. Ken Brock Manufacturing makes > roto-cast seat tanks and when used in experimental aircraft, they have > some kind of foam in them, like race cars, that makes them explosion > proof (to some extent probably). ( I am NOT recommending these seat > tanks for Ercoupes). > > Boat gas tanks are roto-cast plastic. I have long wished we could > have the three Ercoupe tanks reproduced in roto-cast plastic. There > could be a wing tank cover shaped like out present wing tanks to contain > the tanks in the wings that mounts to the same holes. And we could have > the center tank filled with the explosion proof foam stuff. I can't > remember all the details on the foam. I will try to find the article > on the foam and Ken Brock's roto-cast tanks. > Roto-cast can be made into the same shape as the original tanks. Even > if this is a good and safe alternative replacement tank; but for the > certification process. . . . . . . . . . .it it probably impossible. > > I have long wished for new safer tanks that don't cost as much as the > airplane did originally. > > > Skipper > 99398 > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Why pay more to get Web access? > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:53:47 -0700 > From: "Dick Chevalier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Space Shuttle > > From: > > http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/sts-103/countdown.html > > Target launch date/time -- December 11, 1999, 12:13 a.m. EST > Orbiter -- Discovery (OV-103) > Mission Number -- Shuttle flight #96; Discovery flight #27 > Launch window -- 42 minutes > Pad -- 39B > Mission duration -- 9 days, 21 hours > Landing -- December 20, 9:21 p.m. EST > Inclination/altitude -- 28.45 degrees/317 nautical miles > Primary payloads -- Hubble Space Telescope servicing mission > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > - ------------------------------------- > For those who live no further north than perhaps I-10 or I-20 and from Ca. > to La., you may be able to see the re-entry of the shuttle. It is a > spectacular sight, like a meteor streak across the whole sky, a bright > yellow point with a sparkling orange trail moving horizontally east. I was > able to see the last one from southern NM at about 20 deg. elevation and it > was also visible and televised by NASA on W2-9 as it passed north of Houston > at still over 12000 mph. > > Dick > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 10:27:26 -0700 > From: Jack Gocha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Tank sealant > > Syd Cohen > I think when they talk about soldering the fuel tanks they are referring > to the Terneplate tanks. Terneplate is steel coated with an alloy of lead > and tin. When I bought my 1946, Mod 415 D, more than two years ago all the > rivets in both wing tanks had been soldered. I have had absolutely no > seepage problems to date. There is a way to solder aluminum but it is very > difficult and probably not approved for our Coupes. > I should point out regarding the ten hours it took to remove and > re-install my (terneplate) fuselage tank for soldering, some people may not > realize the tank has to be dropped down inside the canopy and removed > through the open sliding side windows, through the top of the cockpit. In > order to do this the tank has to be drained, all engine connections > disconnected, both yoke tubes have to be disconnected, both fuel lines have > to be disconnected, my main fuel valve comes through the instrument panel, > so it had to be removed too. Any radios that extend under the tank have to > be disconnected and removed. When the tank has been repaired it has to have > everything re-installed and reconnected in the reverse order of the above. > I'm sure I may have forgotten something but you can see it is a time > consuming job. In addition to all this I, myself spent at least ten hours > cleaning many layers of filler putty, fiberglass and who knows what else > that had previously been used in many attempts to repair the tank without > removing it. > I thank my lucky stars that so far the solder job seems to be holding up. > I think you might agree it is best to us the most foolproof method to seal > a leaking tank so that it doesn't have to be removed again. > > Jack G. > N103JF > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:39:24 -0600 > From: "Bob U." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 30-gal fuel > > [Chuckle] > > Why was I thinking the long silence 'til now was indicative that I > scared everybody off? <grin> > > CRAZY and as BOLD as I may be, the RV-3 I am building, may well sport > an Ercoupe type fuel system. > > At the moment, I only have a header tank, but there are wing tanks for > the RV-3, too. Normally, one chooses one or the other style. > But, given the high horsepower to weight ratio, if your mission is fast > long x/countries, that picture can change dramatically. > My mission is 1000 miles non-stop in 5 hours or less. > Quite do-able with wing and header tanks. > > Header tanks were the norm in many certified planes through the 40's. > Fuel pumps, mechanical/electrical, were/are just something else to fail. > Yes, there are different strokes for different folks... then and now. > However, I have yet to see anything from the FAA MANDATING that header > tanks can no longer be legal in new aircraft. > BUT... maybe there is. > > Since I am NOT MAKING THAT CLAIM, it is not my requirement to prove such > a position. If I can find a definitive source, I will be only too glad > to post it - for better or worse. > > I'm not exactly 'comfy' with the header tank, but neither am I thrilled > with the fact that many of my fellow ag pilots burned to death when > their Super Cub wing tanks ruptured.... drenching them while trapped or > untrapped in the wreckage. One crummy spark... and they became human > torches before they vanished agonizingly into historic oblivion! > Surely, other wing tank airplane drivers have suffered similar fates. > > BTW.... > One of my good friends was raised in Rantoul. > Many of his clan still resides there. > Bryce Vermilion of the Illinois Central Railroad. > Master Mechanic and up and coming executive type. > Perhaps you knew/remember him? > I attended his funeral some years ago. > It was a very sad and tragic loss. > > Thanks for the reply, Skypops. > You have brightened this day. > > Bob Urban > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Well said Bob :-) > > May all your landings be silky smooth and right side up! > > Best regards, > > Rob Talbot-Jones, 3040H, Rantoul IL > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:06:23 PST > From: "G/F Alon S/N149" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 30-gal fuel > > On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:39:24 -0600, Bob U. wrote: > > >Bob, so you do not have to waist your valuable time searching for the > answer to the approval of a header tank in a NEW CERTIFIED aircraft, my > source is FAA flight saftey, Tom Lehman (ret) and Fred Goodwin, aeronauticl > engineer, formerly with Piper and now with the aerospace program designing > space suits here in Dover, DE. Both of these people have spent their lives > in this business and I accept their statement as factual. I will be more > than happy to send their adress to you and anyone else out ther who wish to > contact them. > I DO NOT make comments of this nature in public by made up to antagonize > people. If you, or anyone else wish to retain your header tanks in their > airplane, THEY ARE CERTIFIED to stay in the airplane. You can also remove > them and repair them in various forms (some legal and some questionable). I > tried (in vain it seems) to get across the undeniable fact that these tanks > are anywhere from 30 to 50 years-old. As one couper said (without getting > emotionally bent out of shape) "I like my 3-tank system, I also thing there > are some real positive points to the 30-gal system. I really wish someone > would go back and build NEW 3-tank systems at a reasonable cost. I would > rather go that way." > He is right on the mark. What really should be done (instead of bitching) > is to get on this site and see if you can get enough orders together to > remanufacture a reasonable lot of the 3-tank system. We are doing that with > the extended baggage for our Alons---and it is working! Presently we have > are doing a mailing to all Alon owners to increase the quantity. > When I removed the three tanks forom my Alon, all three were sweating fuel > somewhere. It was MY DECISION that I did not wish to repair a 30 year-old > set of tanks that just may spring a leak again. I am fortunate in that I > have a partner in my Alon and we split the costs. That helped a lot. I > NEVER told anyone that the 30 gal. tank installation was the cheaper way to > go. On the contrary, I have said it is expensive! Not everyone can afford > the change and I understand that too. However, there are some people out > there who CAN afford the change and we should not leave them out. > To those who have solid 3-tank systems in your airplanes, I would not change > them mysely, just for the sake of change. To those who are having PROBLEMS > with their system, You might want to look at an ALTERNATIVE. You do NOT > have to change to the 30-gal system, just understand that there is another > choice! > George Frebert > > > > [Chuckle] > > > > Why was I thinking the long silence 'til now was indicative that I > > scared everybody off? <grin> > > > > CRAZY and as BOLD as I may be, the RV-3 I am building, may well sport > > an Ercoupe type fuel system. > > > > At the moment, I only have a header tank, but there are wing tanks for > > the RV-3, too. Normally, one chooses one or the other style. > > But, given the high horsepower to weight ratio, if your mission is fast > > long x/countries, that picture can change dramatically. > > My mission is 1000 miles non-stop in 5 hours or less. > > Quite do-able with wing and header tanks. > > > > Header tanks were the norm in many certified planes through the 40's. > > Fuel pumps, mechanical/electrical, were/are just something else to fail. > > Yes, there are different strokes for different folks... then and now. > > However, I have yet to see anything from the FAA MANDATING that header > > tanks can no longer be legal in new aircraft. > > BUT... maybe there is. > > > > Since I am NOT MAKING THAT CLAIM, it is not my requirement to prove such > > a position. If I can find a definitive source, I will be only too glad > > to post it - for better or worse. > > > > I'm not exactly 'comfy' with the header tank, but neither am I thrilled > > with the fact that many of my fellow ag pilots burned to death when > > their Super Cub wing tanks ruptured.... drenching them while trapped or > > untrapped in the wreckage. One crummy spark... and they became human > > torches before they vanished agonizingly into historic oblivion! > > Surely, other wing tank airplane drivers have suffered similar fates. > > > > BTW.... > > One of my good friends was raised in Rantoul. > > Many of his clan still resides there. > > Bryce Vermilion of the Illinois Central Railroad. > > Master Mechanic and up and coming executive type. > > Perhaps you knew/remember him? > > I attended his funeral some years ago. > > It was a very sad and tragic loss. > > > > Thanks for the reply, Skypops. > > You have brightened this day. > > > > Bob Urban > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > Well said Bob :-) > > > May all your landings be silky smooth and right side up! > > > Best regards, > > > Rob Talbot-Jones, 3040H, Rantoul IL > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:52:09 -0700 > From: Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Tank Sealant > > I suspect that the problem is not as easy as having Univair make a tank and get it > STC'd. I needed a wing tank, but with an early SN, I couldn't fit a later SN > tank. It is my understanding that in the early production, Ercoupe made changes > in construction as needed, and I know that the later Ercoupe tanks are not the > same as the Alon tanks, which are not the same Etc. A far better solution would > be a suitable liquid liner that hardens and forms a flexible bladder inside the > tank. This could be poured into the tank, "sloshed" around, but form a thicker > liner than we've had available in the past. Being an old Harley Bum, I've on > several occasions installed custom fuel tanks on my bikes. Each time, I've used a > tank sealer prior to finishing the tank. I can't remember the name of it, but > it's available at most custom MotorCycle shops. The secret seems to be in using > the acid that comes with it to clean and prep the tank. After finishing, these > tanks are subjected to both Av and Auto gas, and I've never seen it come loose or > out. It seems that the problem some of you may be having with your leaks, is the > process, and not the materials. My own tank had sealant installed upon sealant, > and now I'm having to pay the piper. All the junk has to come out before I can > fix it right. There comes a time when we all should accept the fact that we'd be > better off financially if we'd taken up Cocaine instead of flying. We'd be money > ahead. If you don't want to, or can't afford to fix it right, DON'T BITCH ABOUT > IT WHEN IT FAILS AGAIN. > > LARRY > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Syd and the group. > > > > As you know, I have been a proponent of keeping the header tank in place, > > argueing that it is safer to have a system that keeps the engine runnning > > than a system dependent on pumps that might fail and cause the engine to > > quit.....BUT..... > > > > I see a lot of comments about using "weld" glues on leaking tanks.....and > > that scares me. > > > > If the tank wall is so thin that corrosion is eating thru and causing a leak, > > that leak may be stopped by the use of one of these JB Welds, etc., > > materials....BUT...if the skin is corroded and thin, then it will probably > > rupture in a hard landing, minor accident, etc., ie: a condition where an > > airworthy tank would not fail... > > > > So folks, be careful, if your header tank is bad, replace it!....or have it > > rebuilt properly, by replacement of the metal by soldering, welding, > > etc....approved repair process, so that it is strong enough to sustain a jolt. > > > > I am concerned that there may be those of us flying with non-leaking tanks, > > but that have corroded through tank bottoms that have been repaired with > > brittle materials, that would fail in an otherwise minor incident...... > > > > Yes it would be nice to have one of the new type material tanks available for > > replacement. The Auto racing world is using such a tank - > > > > Shame on Univair for not exploring the issue of an economical replacement > > composite tank. Maybe they can be encouraged to do so. Call or write them.... > > <A HREF="http://www.univair.com/";>Univair Home</A> > > > > Leaking gasoline is not a matter to be taken lightly.. > > > > Regards, > > > > Fly Safe - Have Fun > > > > Harry Francis > > 93530 > > Blacksburg, VA. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:58:59 -0700 > From: Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: An Effort to Change the subject > > Hey Ron, > > Haven't you figured it out yet. We all own 50 some odd year old air planes, > that don't fly. The purpose of the List is to talk about the problems that are > keeping us on the ground, so that hopefully we can sometimes get them fixed, and > then go on to talking about fixing the next problem. And on, and on, and on. I > don't have to worry about flying, my greatest worry is what the next fix is > going to cost. > > Larry > > Ron Burke wrote: > > > I dared to fill my 3 yes 3 gas tanks yesterday, and around 5:pm after a > > through pre-flight I jumpped into N2273H. > > If you can believe this started her enging and accually taxied her to the > > run up area and ran her up. > > After checking all of her insterments I let her engine warm up a bit, then > > took matters into my own hand and rolled her > > onto runway 16 here at Spanaway, WA. and pushed the throttle all the way in. > > At 80mph I pulled back just a little on the wheel and she began to fly. > > Here it is December 2, 1999 it is 5:00pm (dark), the OAT is reading 40, I > > have a box of Ritz Crackers and a 1/2 Diet Pepsi, full fuel and no where > > really to go. IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER. > > > > I guess my point is DOES ANYONE ELSE FLY ???? > > > > Here is what the list has helped me figure out > > > > 1. 30 gallon tanks - BAD, cost WAY to much and no gain, The Ercoupe was > > purpose built, and built WELL. > > 2. Tank Sloshing stuff used to repair a leaking tank - BAD, fix it right. > > 3. Computer Viruses - BAD, do not open any EXE sent to teh group no matter > > how cute. > > 4. Forwarding cute files to the group - BAD, they will have viruses, and > > they probly get the file anyway. > > 5. The Tail Up spacer - GOOD, ground handling and transition to and from > > flight GREAT. > > 6. Meeting other Coupers and working on coupes togather - GOOD, fun and > > rewarding. > > 7. A project Coupe - BAD, A project will always take at least twice the time > > and money stated by the guy selling the project. > > 8. A compleatly rebuilt coupe that only needs seat belts and a Gyro - BAD, > > it is still a project, see #7 > > 9. Buying a project coupe with plans to put a subru engine in it - BAD, best > > comment would be mis-guided. > > 10. Useing the list to set up a meeting place to fly to, GOOD, I enjoy > > FLYING out and meeting other Coupers. > > > > Ron > > N2273H my '46-D > > N5671L my '69 AA-1 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:07:04 -0700 > From: Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: coupers-digest V1 #286 > > Sorry Skipper, > > Roto Molded plastic wouldn't work. First, the material used is > Polyethylene. Great tough material, but extremely prone to warpage. > Secondly, no way to mold baffles into the inside of the tanks. Thirdly, > cannot be painted or glued. Fourthly, because of the flexability of the > plastics, they're prone to cracking in the areas where you mount them onto a > metal surface. It has to do with the coefficient of expansion. The plastic > expands about 10 times as much for a given rise in temperature than aluminum > does. After repeated heat/cold cycles, the plastic suffers what is know as > environmental stress cracking. Not Good. But, Fiberglass could work. > > Larry > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Ed mentioned a safer center tank. Ken Brock Manufacturing makes > > roto-cast seat tanks and when used in experimental aircraft, they have > > some kind of foam in them, like race cars, that makes them explosion > > proof (to some extent probably). ( I am NOT recommending these seat > > tanks for Ercoupes). > > > > Boat gas tanks are roto-cast plastic. I have long wished we could > > have the three Ercoupe tanks reproduced in roto-cast plastic. There > > could be a wing tank cover shaped like out present wing tanks to contain > > the tanks in the wings that mounts to the same holes. And we could have > > the center tank filled with the explosion proof foam stuff. I can't > > remember all the details on the foam. I will try to find the article > > on the foam and Ken Brock's roto-cast tanks. > > Roto-cast can be made into the same shape as the original tanks. Even > > if this is a good and safe alternative replacement tank; but for the > > certification process. . . . . . . . . . .it it probably impossible. > > > > I have long wished for new safer tanks that don't cost as much as the > > airplane did originally. > > > > Skipper > > 99398 > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Why pay more to get Web access? > > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! > > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:21:38 -0700 > From: Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 30-gal fuel > > Hi Bob, > > Good to hear you again. I figured the long silence from you was just > that you couldn't figure out something nice to say. ( a smile on my face as > I say that). After all, I made a pubic apology for us, and groveled to the > group. > > Larry > > "Bob U." wrote: > > > [Chuckle] > > > > Why was I thinking the long silence 'til now was indicative that I > > scared everybody off? <grin> > > > > CRAZY and as BOLD as I may be, the RV-3 I am building, may well sport > > an Ercoupe type fuel system. > > > > At the moment, I only have a header tank, but there are wing tanks for > > the RV-3, too. Normally, one chooses one or the other style. > > But, given the high horsepower to weight ratio, if your mission is fast > > long x/countries, that picture can change dramatically. > > My mission is 1000 miles non-stop in 5 hours or less. > > Quite do-able with wing and header tanks. > > > > Header tanks were the norm in many certified planes through the 40's. > > Fuel pumps, mechanical/electrical, were/are just something else to fail. > > Yes, there are different strokes for different folks... then and now. > > However, I have yet to see anything from the FAA MANDATING that header > > tanks can no longer be legal in new aircraft. > > BUT... maybe there is. > > > > Since I am NOT MAKING THAT CLAIM, it is not my requirement to prove such > > a position. If I can find a definitive source, I will be only too glad > > to post it - for better or worse. > > > > I'm not exactly 'comfy' with the header tank, but neither am I thrilled > > with the fact that many of my fellow ag pilots burned to death when > > their Super Cub wing tanks ruptured.... drenching them while trapped or > > untrapped in the wreckage. One crummy spark... and they became human > > torches before they vanished agonizingly into historic oblivion! > > Surely, other wing tank airplane drivers have suffered similar fates. > > > > BTW.... > > One of my good friends was raised in Rantoul. > > Many of his clan still resides there. > > Bryce Vermilion of the Illinois Central Railroad. > > Master Mechanic and up and coming executive type. > > Perhaps you knew/remember him? > > I attended his funeral some years ago. > > It was a very sad and tragic loss. > > > > Thanks for the reply, Skypops. > > You have brightened this day. > > > > Bob Urban > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > Well said Bob :-) > > > May all your landings be silky smooth and right side up! > > > Best regards, > > > Rob Talbot-Jones, 3040H, Rantoul IL > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:37:14 -0700 > From: "Butch Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [none] > > Dyno; Bring her on Big Fella, Wheres half way. Butchoward 2134H > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:14:42 -0800 > From: jollyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: wings > > to the person/s. that are looking for wings...I have a set of rags...no > corrosion on the spars....jolly in aurora, or....503-678-3343 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:45:14 -0600 > From: "Bob U." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 30-gal fuel > > G/F Alon S/N149 wrote: > > > > On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:39:24 -0600, Bob U. wrote: > > > > >Bob, so you do not have to waist your valuable time searching for the > > answer to the approval of a header tank in a NEW CERTIFIED aircraft, my > > source is FAA flight saftey, Tom Lehman (ret) and Fred Goodwin, aeronauticl > > engineer, formerly with Piper and now with the aerospace program designing > > space suits here in Dover, DE. Both of these people have spent their lives > > in this business and I accept their statement as factual. I will be more > > than happy to send their adress to you and anyone else out ther who wish to > > contact them. > <STUFF SNIPPED> > > George Frebert > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Sorry George, > > Neither retired FAA sources, nor outside aero engineers can speak > in place of the PROPER FAA AUTHORITY. > They may mean well and what they tell you in confidence just that... > and is not a FORMAL WRITTEN position of the active FAA PROPER AUTHORITY. > Flight Safety has no power or authority in the matter under discussion. > Your aero engineer holds no more power at the FAA than I do. > > Only WRITTEN POLICY with the names of the PROPER FAA AUTHORITY > within the FAA supporting your claim is acceptable... > or point us to the FAA document online that supports your position. > > I apologize if I did not make myself clear. > > > Bob Urban > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:53:36 -0700 > From: "Butch Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [none] > > Dyno; Heres another problem I had. I had to remove my wheel pants becuz I > couldn't fly level wide open, without alot of pressure on the wheel, about > one minute of that is all I wanted. butch > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:56:06 -0600 > From: "Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 30-gal fuel > > I do not own an Ercoupe yet, so I have no idea what shape the header tank > has. If someone still has a bad header tank that has been removed, please > consider sending it to me. I will take it to Universal Plastics, and some > of the other plastic manufacturing firms, and see what it would cost to have > some plastic replacement tanks made. UP makes tanks for cruise missles and > drones, and several other plastic items for the aerospace industry. I think > that would be the cheapest solution to the problem, but if you guys want > welded aluminum, spun aluminum, aramid fiber (kevlar), fiberglass, or carbon > fiber, I can get estimates on those as well. I don't expect anything other > than plastic to be affordable. Prices here in Huntsville, AL, are pretty > high due to all of the aerospace industries with big pocketbooks. > Someone else will have to worry about the STC, though. I don't have time > for the paperwork. > > Rick Nelson > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:14:59 -0600 > From: "Bob U." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Fuel system safety > > > > You are so right. It took ten hours to have the tank removed and > > > reinstalled, $450.00. I cleaned the tank in preparation for soldering and > > > there was a minimum charge of $150.00 for the actual leak repair by a > > > licensed aircraft welder. > > > > > > Jack G. > > > N103JF > > > > Thanks for the numerical information, Jack. That information helps us > > all a lot in trying to turn our guesses into estimates! > > > > Are there any tank removal experts out there that can do the job (taking > > out the header tank and reinstalling it) in four hours? > > > > -- > > Ed Burkhead > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > No expert here, but have done it in 4 to 5 hours and even made some > improvements in the tank hanging system. > There are some real problems associated with how the rear tank strap > fastens at each side of the cowl. > The original design is pure crapolla and guaranteed to fail. > If your 415-X rear tank strap connection point has never been > repaired, betcha' a soda that it is broken to some degree right now. > > BTW... > I'm super efficient, quality minded and BOLD, so I can't work cheap. > ALSO, I'm so hard to get along with, I had to charge myself Xtra. > > 4 hours billing myself @ $112.50/hr = $450 > > Bob Urban > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:22:12 -0600 > From: "Bob U." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Fuel system safety > > John Olav Johnsen wrote: > > > > I do like the assurance of continued fuel flow ones gets from the cowl tank, > > but I stay concerned about that 6 gallons above my knees. An outfit called > > Crest Foam Industries manufactures a fuel cell open cell foam that only > > reduces fuel tank volume by a few percent...the 6 gallon cowl tank might > > "only" hold 5.7 gallons with this product installed. Installation would > > require opening the tanks and trimming the material into place. Ideally, > > wouldn't it be great if Univair (or someone else) could get replacement > > tanks (yeah, Ed...Kevlar would be terrific!) certified with this material > > already installed? Apparently it virtually eliminates conflagration from > > fuel tanks upon rupture, such as might occur in a crash. > > The EXPERTS tell me this foam has short life, breaks down and is a real > nuisance.... even for the Indy race boys that are mandated to use it. > None of the savvy homebuilders I know care to deal with it. > > > Bob Urban > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:42:39 -0700 > From: "Butch Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [none] > > Dyno; I live in Glendive Montana,if you get over this way stop in my > operation is called coupe corner, you will see it as soon as your off the > runway, My business is Monkey Business, having fun. butch > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:53:28 -0800 > From: "Paul M. Anton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: fuel tanks > > With all this talk about fuel tanks--why not just fabricate a replacement > tank using the old as a pattern? > > Not too difficult a job I should think. Any one with a little TIG skill > should > be able to duplicate the contours of the old tank. If you used the filler > neck from the old tank that would take care of the hard to make part. > > What am I missing here? I think if I had a bad leak I would take that > approach. > > Cheers: > > Paul > N2409H > > PS thanks to this fine group I have a heater box firewall fitting > coming. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:03:47 -0800 > From: "Ron Burke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: fuel tanks > > If you can get a AI to sign a 337 off as same or better OWNER SUPPLIED PART, > should not be a problem > > The owner is allowed to manufacture parts that are no longer available.. I > did this with a tail cone for my Yankee > > any way good luck > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:31:47 -0600 > From: "William W Ducharme" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Tank Sealant > > Larry, I hanger next to a 46 coupe and a Forney coupe, don't know the > year, and I own a 66 Alon. Every one of the tanks on these planes is > different. From steal, to welded, to riveted. My Alon with aluminum > tanks is the only one with rivets. My tanks are in great shape other > than a few seeping rivets. > > I could just let it go. My seeping is so slight the only reason I know > it's seeping is because it leaves small blue circles around a few rivet > heads. If I switched to av gas again I'd never even know they were > seeping on a red plane. Maybe I should just paint my tanks blue and > stick with 100LL? > > Anyway, I want my plane in the best operating condition it can be in. > However, I'm a working stiff, respectable income but family and mortgage > that come first. As you can see money is an object and I can't see > spending $2000+ converting to 15 gallon tanks when my 9 gallon tanks > just need a little help. > > If I wanted range I'd buy another/faster plane not 15 gallon tanks. > Flying a coupe is about stopping at airports along the way and enjoying > the hops from airport to airport. I flew my coupe from Texas to OSH > this year and believe me the stops were the best part of the experience, > especially the stop at OSH and the last stop at home. Hell if I had the > money/time I'd pay someone to totally restore my coupe and by a new > plane to get me around in the interim. Lottery tickets better start > paying off soon. > > On sloshing. Several A/P's have told me the worst thing to do is to > slosh the tanks. If your bike fuel flow gets cut off due to loose crap > in your tank after time/sealant deterioration you pull over, your plane > you pull vinal/fabric out your a--, assuming you live to have to deal > with your new found affliction. If you contact Mooney, the last co. to > produce the coupe, they tell you to seal the rivets from the outside > with their special formula epoxy. Basically JB Weld at 10+ times the > hardware store price. > > On another note, perhaps there's something to be said about keeping our > planes original. If these were 1940 to 1970 cars we'd do everything we > could to keep them original. As such, I'll try the easy, low cost, > original equipment fix until I've determined I have no other choice. > > Sometimes the best fix is not the most effective solution. Kind of like > buying a wedding ring for your wife, when a cigar band would do. Don't > you tell her I said that... > > Good luck with your repairs. I'll post my results in a few weeks. > > > > > > Larry wrote: > > > > I suspect that the problem is not as easy as having Univair make a tank and get it > > STC'd. I needed a wing tank, but with an early SN, I couldn't fit a later SN > > tank. It is my understanding that in the early production, Ercoupe made changes > > in construction as needed, and I know that the later Ercoupe tanks are not the > > same as the Alon tanks, which are not the same Etc. A far better solution would > > be a suitable liquid liner that hardens and forms a flexible bladder inside the > > tank. This could be poured into the tank, "sloshed" around, but form a thicker > > liner than we've had available in the past. Being an old Harley Bum, I've on > > several occasions installed custom fuel tanks on my bikes. Each time, I've used a > > tank sealer prior to finishing the tank. I can't remember the name of it, but > > it's available at most custom MotorCycle shops. The secret seems to be in using > > the acid that comes with it to clean and prep the tank. After finishing, these > > tanks are subjected to both Av and Auto gas, and I've never seen it come loose or > > out. It seems that the problem some of you may be having with your leaks, is the > > process, and not the materials. My own tank had sealant installed upon sealant, > > and now I'm having to pay the piper. All the junk has to come out before I can > > fix it right. There comes a time when we all should accept the fact that we'd be > > better off financially if we'd taken up Cocaine instead of flying. We'd be money > > ahead. If you don't want to, or can't afford to fix it right, DON'T BITCH ABOUT > > IT WHEN IT FAILS AGAIN. > > > > LARRY > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > Syd and the group. > > > > > > As you know, I have been a proponent of keeping the header tank in place, > > > argueing that it is safer to have a system that keeps the engine runnning > > > than a system dependent on pumps that might fail and cause the engine to > > > quit.....BUT..... > > > > > > I see a lot of comments about using "weld" glues on leaking tanks.....and > > > that scares me. > > > > > > If the tank wall is so thin that corrosion is eating thru and causing a leak, > > > that leak may be stopped by the use of one of these JB Welds, etc., > > > materials....BUT...if the skin is corroded and thin, then it will probably > > > rupture in a hard landing, minor accident, etc., ie: a condition where an > > > airworthy tank would not fail... > > > > > > So folks, be careful, if your header tank is bad, replace it!....or have it > > > rebuilt properly, by replacement of the metal by soldering, welding, > > > etc....approved repair process, so that it is strong enough to sustain a jolt. > > > > > > I am concerned that there may be those of us flying with non-leaking tanks, > > > but that have corroded through tank bottoms that have been repaired with > > > brittle materials, that would fail in an otherwise minor incident...... > > > > > > Yes it would be nice to have one of the new type material tanks available for > > > replacement. The Auto racing world is using such a tank - > > > > > > Shame on Univair for not exploring the issue of an economical replacement > > > composite tank. Maybe they can be encouraged to do so. Call or write them.... > > > <A HREF="http://www.univair.com/";>Univair Home</A> > > > > > > Leaking gasoline is not a matter to be taken lightly.. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Fly Safe - Have Fun > > > > > > Harry Francis > > > 93530 > > > Blacksburg, VA. > > - -- > Have a good one! > > The sign said "eight items or less". So I changed my name to Les. > > Bill DuCharme - Senior/Special Projects Manager > (CIA) Certified Internal Auditor, (PP) Private Pilot > JCPenney Direct Marketing - Controller's Department (972) 881-4012 > Address: 2700 W. Plano Parkway, Plano TX. 75075 Unit #9230 > Netscape Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ------------------------------ > > End of coupers-digest V1 #287 > ***************************** >
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