--- Begin Message --- Title: Re: [Fwd: Warning: could not send message for past 4 hours]Greg Bullough wrote:
>
> At 11:59 AM 2/5/99 -0800, Bob Saville wrote:
> > I use the method of placing hands on the prop, swinging my right leg
> >forward under the prop and then swinging it back behind me at the same
> >time I start to spin the prop.
>
I/ve read you letter through before commenting, but I must come back to
this first sentence and comment on it. I learned this method of
propping back in the 40's (as I said, when I was just a kid) I was
always there whenever my dad was anywhere near his plane. I took my
first ride when I was 11 months old and have been in love with flying
ever since. This was long before 'electric starts'. (If you think hand
propping is fun, try and wind up an "Inertial" start on the side of a
Stearman Engine!)
Dad taught me how to "prop" his planes so he could be in the cockpit at
the controls. "Switch off" (a couple of pulls through), "Contact" one
full strength pull through using my (his) swing of the leg method and it
usually started on the first try. If this method is used properly, you
are never 'off balance' and the body movement pulls you back away from
the prop. (Even if you should happen to slip and fall to the ground,
you'd be about a body length away from the prop, which is vey unlikely,
just try walking while keeping both feet on the ground. All I'm doing is
walking backwards with the additional advantage of throwing my body
weight back away from the prop. Whether the engine starts or not, I'm
several feet away from the prop.
All I'm saying is that this system works great for me and most of the
oldtimers that fly off of my field, some of which are even older than I
am. (I think the newest plane on the field is a '49 Navion and the
oldest is one of two '29 Fleets.) (That isn't counting the Helicopter
that the guy with the '49 Navion also owns.)( Helicopters don't count,
they fare for someone who wants to go flying but has no particular place
to go) :-) (He told me that, when he actually wants to go somewhere,
he takes the Navion)
> Everything I've read about hand-propping always says NOT to lift a leg up
> due to the risk of falling down.*****No doubt written by some one who thinks a C-150 is an 'old' plane.
Back in the days I was flying Cessnas they were 'state of the art' they
even had electric starters! (So did my '47 Piper Super Cruiser, that's
the first thing I ever flew that I didn't have to 'prop' before I could
fly it. WOW, what a luxury!) I had not been exposed to Ercoupes yet, so
I didn't know that they already had electric starters. (They were ahead
of their time, ie: trend setters)(Thanks to Fred)YMMV. Also, don't depend on the prop for
> any percentage of your equilibrium. When the motor does start, it won't be
> supporting you unless you are going around and around.*****By the time the engine starts, I'm about 5 or 6 feet away from it.
>
> I take a step back, which forces my arm down as I back away from the prop
> (basic vector geometry). If that ain't enough to start a C-series, then you
> probably should have spent a bit more time prepping the motor with the
> mags grounded. Or that the impulse-coupling (likely) or ignition, or carb
> needs attention.
>
*****With this comment, I agree completely. Also, one thing that I
neglected to mention in my previous post.... Always treat EVERY prop as
though the switch is 'HOT', just in case the ground fails. (Just like
treating EVERY 'empty'gun as though it is loaded.)
> These little puppies start very easily, with very little effort, when
> healthy. In fact,
> after you've propped a well-prepped and well-maintained C-series, you'll
> never be
> casual about turning a prop again. On any airplane engine. At least that was my
> reaction, the first time I did it, earlier this year (under tutelage of an
> expert).*****Before I retired, I was in sales. When some of the 'younger'
salespeople needed some help to close a sale they used to call on me and
introduce me to their customer as "the expert on this particular
product". My opening line, with a smile and/or a chuckle, was "hey,
please don't call me that, did you ever break that word down? An "EX"
is a "has-been" and a "spert" is a "drip that's under pressure". Think
about it and the next time you hear someone referred to as an "expert"
look him over and see if he really is, or if he just wants everyone to
think that he is. I don't consider myself anywhere near an expert.
Rather, just a guy who's been around a long time and has learned about
half of what I should know at this age. (I should have paid more
attention to some of the true 'experts' that I was exposed to over the
years)>
> > If anyone out there is 'uncomfortable' with propping a coupe, leave the
> >mag switch 'off' and try this method a few times to get the feel of it.
>
> Remembering, of course, that P-leads have been known to break, and mag
> switches (which are electrically ON to turn the motor OFF) to fail. Either
> situation
> means the engine is eminantly startable when it oughtn't be.
>*****I agree completely! As I said above, every prop should be
considered "HOT", even if the mag switch is in the off position.
Also, anyone who is 'afraid' of the prop (or uncomfortable with it)
should stay away from it until someone with experience can assist them.
About 20 years ago I ferried two CFI's that I new to a small county
airport up near the Canadian border above Spokane to pick up an old twin
engine Cessna and they were to fly it back to Eugene Oregon to the
Flight Center in order to sell it for the owner. It was supposed to be
ready to fly when we got there. HA!!! The weeds were growing up around
the wheels and it obviously hadn't seen a human being in a long time.
Well, we were up there and what were we to do? The batteries were of
course DEAD, although there was some fuel in it so I offered to 'prop'
it to try and
get either of the engines running and use the power from that engines
generator to start the other engine. The engines are rather high on this
particular a/c and, as I remember, it had three bladed props. Neither of
the "hot-shot" instructors had ever seen anyone 'prop' a plane before,
all they knew was the 'modern' stuff. Without dragging this story out
any longer, after a couple of hours (and some VERY sore fingers) I
finally got one of the engines started. After a brief warm-up period
they got the other one started and all was a "go". After they taxied it
around for a little bit to get the feel of it and get it all checked
out, I left for Spokane and they met me there, quite a bit later. They
learned three things that day, that it is possible to start an a/c
engine with with a dead battery, that a propeller is not a thing to fear
(only to respect) and always double check with the owner of the plane
you are supposed to ferry somewhere just before you leave to see if, in
fact, it really is ready to go. Both of these guys were working towards
their ATP ratings and didn't know a lot about the 'basics', only what
they needed to know to pass the FAA tests. Don't get me wrong, both of
them were friends of mine, but they thought they knew more than they
really did. (One of them was later killed in Alaska on his new job as a
charter pilot and the other, last I heard was still flying as a
corporate pilot for a company somewhere in California.)
BTW, the reason I got back to Spokane in the Warrior quite a while
before they got there in the Twin Cessna, they decided to fly into Couer
d' Alene Idaho for a cocktail along the way. I lost a lot of respect for
my friends that day. And later, I lost one of my friends. I wonder what
the "unknown" circumstances were?????> Remember, the Coupe's mixture control (if any) doesn't have an 'idle cut
> off' and
> that even with a fuel valve closed and the engine seemingly run dry, there
> will
> sometimes be enough fuel in there to give you a bit of a thwack.*****My mixture control is safety wired to the full rich possition on
the C-75 engine. I ALWAYS kill my engine by turning off the fuel valve
and running the engine until it dies of fuel starvation, then I turn off
the mag switch and master switch. I know, there are pro's and con's
about this, some say the gaskets will dry up in the carb if there is no
fuel in the float bowl while others have other ideas. I've always done
it that way on all my planes, motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc. It works
for me, any one else can do it the way that it works for them. Nuff on
that subject.>
> FWIW, the 'magic' moment in hand-propping is when you hear the mag's impulse-
> coupling go 'clack'. It MIGHT start at another time, but you should get
> used to that
> particular sound. So when rehearsing get used to the position the prop is
> in when
> the 'clack' goes off. That's the point where your ass better be out of the
> way. That
> is also the point when you should be ANYTHING but off-balance. Where you should
> be is well on your way away.*****I fully agree with you, and using my method, you will be.(Far away)
>
> Be careful out there.
>*****ROGER THAT!!!!!!!!! And, - - - - - "KEEP COUPES FLYING"- - - - -
> Greg
*****Nice chatting with you Greg and don't take it personnaly that we
disagree on a few points, as long as we are both comfortable with the
way we do it and we feel 'safe' with our own particular method we at
least have one thing in common, we both love our coupes. :-)FLY SAFE AND FLY OFTEN...
Bob Saville
N3396H 415C
Eugene, OR
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