Dear Simon,
Interesting thought. I'd say however, I am not confused by this. In my
opinion, the problem lays in the human mind, which tries to stretch
abstractions over incompatible evidence.
From a CRM point of view, every copy of such a process is an individual
physical object. Why should we call
it a Manifestation, or even something more abstract, if it does not fit
to the book market process this concept was designed for?
If there is an individual artistic contribution each time (as I
mentioned in my last message), then we talk about new features on the
plate each time, which correspond to a new symbolic content
("Expression"). There are two cases: Either it is an overall derivative,
or there is an "incorporation" of content by virtue of the fixed
features on the plate. So, I'd say the individually colored copy
"incorporates" the plate optical content and adds a new creation process
to it.
The question of second order logic arises when we want to talk about
types of types of things which inherit fixed properties from their
class, such as the number of pages of a book.
If regarding such copies is better modelled as instances of a type or
not is for me the primary question, not the kind of logic to be used.
The fixed features on the individually colored plate would hardly be
expanded into discrete properties, besides itself being on the plate.
Also, to my understanding, the second order logic features needed to
describe inheritance of properties from types of types or classes is
completely decidable and no technical problem except for the current
reluctance of IT to think in such terms ;-) .
Interesting are the requirements which kind of logic cultural-historical
data need, rather than, which logic to avoid. From CRM-SIG point of
view, we require since a long time more powerful forms of logic than
standard DL.
What do you think?
Martin
On 10/8/2015 9:02 μμ, Simon Spero wrote:
To add a bit more confusion to the discussion, one can consider
Blake's hand printed books.
Every plate was coloured individually, and differently, and are some
scholars consider each copy to be a distinct [thing more abstract than
Manifestation].
There is some justification for this, as there is distinct
intellectual content (produced by the original author, even). This
seems to fall into the awkward place in FRBR where expression and work
overlap.
This happens a lot in different places in FRBR; it's difficult to
handle without using a second order logic, or at least a first order
logic which allows for quantifying over known predicates.
Simon
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 5:48 AM <patrick.le-bo...@bnf.fr
<mailto:patrick.le-bo...@bnf.fr>> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I completely agree with Martin. There is no point in dealing with
art prints as continuing resources. PRESSoo is inadequate in this
context. I think there is enough stuff in a combination of FRBRoo
and CIDOC CRM to cope with at least the main issues raised by art
prints. Surely an extension of FRBRoo could bring more refinements
in the treatment of such products, but FRBRoo has to remain a
high-level conceptual model.
Best wishes,
Patrick
De : martin <mar...@ics.forth.gr <mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>>
A : crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
Date : 09/08/2015 16:11
Objet : Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Envoyé par : "Crm-sig" <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr
<mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jim,
A serialization character of prints is not so obvious to me. The
reworking of print plates appears to me
to be a rather peculiar process of modification of a material
object, not so much an editorial series.
The actual printing process is either a mechanical one, or a
combination of manual creative work and
mechanical work, which I'd see more similar to book printing on
one side, and mold-based techniques,
such as in ceramics or bronze?
Best,
Martin
On 7/8/2015 7:05 μμ, Jim Salmons wrote:
Regine, C.E.S., and Martin,
In the context of FRBRoo as a DSL/extension of #cidocCRM with
particular reference to the “serialization” character of print
production, it may be useful to consider the ISSN.org’s
contribution of PRESSoo, an extension/harmonization that brings
serialization and continuation semantics to FRBRoo.
The reference document is found here:
_http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/_
and Patrick Le Boeuf’s presentation on behalf of the ISSN working
group which developed this valuable contribution is here:
_http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo_
Happy-Healthy Vibes,
-: Jim :-
Jim Salmons
Twitter: @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, @Softalk_Apple
_www.FactMiners.org_ <http://www.factminers.org/>(Open Source
#Play2Learn game community)
_www.SoftalkApple.com_ <http://www.softalkapple.com/>(first
FactMiners museum/archive project)
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
_Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr_ <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
_http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig_
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: _martin@ics.forth.gr_
<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>|
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: _http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl_ |
--------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exposition */Piaf
<http://www.bnf.fr/fr/evenements_et_culture/anx_expositions/f.piaf.html>/*
- du 14 avril 2015 au 23 ao?t 2015 - BnF - Fran?ois-Mitterrand |
*Derniers jours*
*Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement.*
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
--------------------------------------------------------------
