---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Dominic Oldman" <do...@oldman.me.uk> List-Post: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr Date: 10 Mar 2017 6:03 p.m. Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 To: "Martin Doerr" <mar...@ics.forth.gr> Cc:
Sure, that seems logical as in this case the part of expression is arbitrary. I will submit an issue for a clarification in the scope note between self contain expression and fragment and write draft submission. Cheers, Dominic On 10 Mar 2017 5:40 p.m., "martin" <mar...@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Dear Dominic, > > If you regard this as a new issue, or new evidence of an old one, please > mark your message by "ISSUE", and it will be on the agenda. Every crm-sig > member has the right to raise an issue. > > BTW, I agree that a "Page" is not a self-contained expression, but a > fragment. In general, it does not intend to stop at meaningful > propositional boundaries. It might be, that a self-contained expression is > made to fit on one page. The levels of consideration are tricky: The > scanned image as an expression in its own right (or better just Information > Object?) incorporates but is not logically the same as the incorporated > expression. > > best, > > martin > > On 10/3/2017 5:24 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote: > > Hi Florian, > > Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list. > > Cheers, > > D > > > orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore < > c.e.s....@iln.uio.no> wrote: > >> Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example: >> >> >> To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history. An >> excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The corresponding expression is a >> fragment expression. See for example a paperslip for the word 'shovelfork' >> (used to prepare la (small) field instead of ploughing. The text is a >> fragment of a longer text dealing with somebody childhood memories >> >> >> http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg >> >> >> The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where a >> expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work) >> >> >> Best >> >> Christian-Emil >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Dominic Oldman <do...@oldman.me.uk> >> *Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32 >> >> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore >> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 >> >> Hi Christian, >> >> I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the list as I >> think it is important generally. >> >> D >> >> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 >> >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman <do...@oldman.me.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on E23 >>> because it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the whole whereas in >>> this case the section still resides within a whole. Although the scope note >>> does state "excerpts" I still think this could be stated far more clearly >>> with less ambiguity - if it does mean that these excerpts can be >>> identified sections of the information object within a whole text. >>> >>> Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting? >>> >>> D >>> >>> >>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore < >>> c.e.s....@iln.uio.no> wrote: >>> >>>> It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page is a >>>> self-contained expression, it is in general a F23 Expression Fragment >>>> >>>> >>>> Best >>>> >>>> Christian-Emil >>>> >>>> >>>> F22 Self-Contained Expression >>>> >>>> This class comprises the immaterial realisations of individual works at >>>> a particular time that are regarded as a complete whole. The quality of >>>> wholeness reflects the intention of its creator that this expression should >>>> convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn be part of a >>>> larger whole. >>>> >>>> >>>> Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of recognisable >>>> outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e. the Self-Contained Expressions, >>>> are regarded as the symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form >>>> the atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may contain >>>> expressions or parts of expressions from other work, such as citations or >>>> items collected in anthologies. Even though they are incorporated in the >>>> Self-Contained Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of the >>>> expressed container work by their inclusion in the expression, but are >>>> rather regarded as foreign or referred to elements. >>>> >>>> >>>> F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from F23 Expression >>>> Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment was not intended by its creator >>>> to make sense by itself. Normally creators would characterise an outcome of >>>> a work as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an outcome of a >>>> work as complete from the elaboration or logical coherence of its content, >>>> or if there is any historical knowledge about the creator deliberately or >>>> accidentally never finishing (completing) that particular expression. In >>>> all those cases, one would regard an expression as self-contained. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Dominic Oldman <do...@oldman.me.uk> >>>> *Sent:* 09 March 2017 20:50 >>>> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 >>>> >>>> >>>> So in this case the self contained expression (information object) >>>> identified as page 1 can then be represented by a part of a PDF image which >>>> itself identifies parts (a physical page?) which are identified >>>> accordingly. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure whether this is what Florian means though - so await >>>> his reply. >>>> >>>> D >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore < >>>> c.e.s....@iln.uio.no> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> There are many ways to number or put identifiers to parts of written >>>>> or printed material:folio, sheet (versio/recto), page. >>>>> If the physical original is known, perhaps a starting point would be >>>>> to model the physical parts and their relationships. >>>>> >>>>> The pdfs in question seems to be facsimiles of these physical parts. >>>>> (a single page, double pages etc). A possible way to model them is to see >>>>> the pdfs as carriers of visual items reperesenting the physical objects of >>>>> the specific item (P5). >>>>> >>>>> The first example in the compenote of P138 represents (has >>>>> representation): >>>>> the digital file found at http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No >>>>> -MM_N0001-01.jpg (E36) represents page 1 of Edward Munch's manuscript >>>>> MM N 1, Munch-museet (E73) mode of representation Digitisation(E55) >>>>> >>>>> Best >>>>> Christian-Emil >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Dominic >>>>> Oldman <dold...@britishmuseum.org> >>>>> Sent: 09 March 2017 17:59 >>>>> To: Florian Kräutli; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 >>>>> >>>>> Hi Florian, >>>>> >>>>> Just trying to understand. >>>>> >>>>> You have an expression that is organised with page numbers. This is >>>>> reproduced in the PDF. The expression page numbers are the same (the >>>>> information object) but page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page >>>>> 1 is still page 1 as an information object but on the application adobe >>>>> spreads it over two application carrier pages. Is that right? or is it >>>>> something else. >>>>> >>>>> If the expression is the same (the same information object) then isn't >>>>> page 1, page 1 >>>>> >>>>> Can you clarify. >>>>> >>>>> D >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: Crm-sig [crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] on behalf of Florian >>>>> Kräutli [fkraeu...@mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de] >>>>> Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38 >>>>> To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 >>>>> >>>>> Dear Martin, >>>>> >>>>> many thanks for your input! >>>>> >>>>> Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in the PDF represent >>>>> one or two pages of the book? >>>>> >>>>> Later on, we might have more specific questions that will require us >>>>> to define the relationships between these two page identifiers (in the >>>>> physical book and in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need to >>>>> manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can not assume that page n >>>>> in >>>>> a book corresponds to page n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain >>>>> some additional pages with information about the digitisation process. >>>>> >>>>> For now we however only need a binary answer: double-spread yes or no. >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> >>>>> Florian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00, crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to >>>>> > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> > >>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>> > crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr >>>>> > >>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>> > crm-sig-ow...@ics.forth.gr >>>>> > >>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>> > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..." >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Today's Topics: >>>>> > >>>>> > 1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin) >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---------- >>>>> > >>>>> > Message: 1 >>>>> > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200 >>>>> > From: martin <mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>>>> > To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads >>>>> > Message-ID: <e4b3d793-40d5-f5d5-1f39-ff2404bab...@ics.forth.gr> >>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >>>>> > >>>>> > Dear Florian, >>>>> > >>>>> > There is no model without a question. Pages of books constitute a >>>>> > partitioning of an >>>>> > information object. Each page number can be seen as an identifier. >>>>> > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning system. The >>>>> > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned double pages. >>>>> > Each scanned image represents, actually also incorporates, the text >>>>> of >>>>> > two pages of the reproduced. >>>>> > Between alternative partitionings, one can define includes/overlaps >>>>> > relations. >>>>> > >>>>> > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or functions you'd like >>>>> to >>>>> > support. >>>>> > >>>>> > Best, >>>>> > >>>>> > martin >>>>> > >>>>> > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote: >>>>> >> Dear all, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been reproduced (F33) >>>>> as PDFs (E84). >>>>> >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads i.e. one page >>>>> in the PDF represents two pages in the book. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Is there an elegant way to model this? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Best, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Florian >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > >>>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>>>> > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>>>> > | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | >>>>> > | >>>>> > Center for Cultural Informatics | >>>>> > Information Systems Laboratory | >>>>> > Institute of Computer Science | >>>>> > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>>>> > | >>>>> > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>>>> > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>>>> > | >>>>> > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | >>>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>> > >>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>> > >>>>> > End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 >>>>> > *************************************** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | > | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | > | > Center for Cultural Informatics | > Information Systems Laboratory | > Institute of Computer Science | > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >
