Dear All, thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I believe Achille is right in the sense that there will not be an embedding just in an A3 but as Martins example shows an A3 may be included in an embedding. So I would opt for Christian Emils suggestion to lift the range of AP19 is embedding in to A8 to accommodate both options.
One case I am thinking of is a drawing of a stratigraphic excavation that shows the interface (A3) between two layers and the position of a find in the drawing. What is actually depicted is the Embedding in the Interface. If I only want to document the content of the drawing I would need to make a statement that relates the embedding to the depicted A3. From other documentation I could get other statements that relate the Embedding to A2s and thus I could complete the picture of the embedding and relate each statement to the source where it was stated. Best, Gerald From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Achille Felicetti via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> Reply to: Achille Felicetti <achille.felice...@pin.unifi.it> Date: Sunday, 28. March 2021 at 20:14 To: Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> Cc: "crm-sig@ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] CRMarcheo -embedding Dear Martin, These are very interesting and suggestive considerations. I will definitely treasure them. Bests, Achille Il giorno 27 mar 2021, alle ore 11:32, Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>> ha scritto: Hi Achille, That is basically no problem. It can quite easily be formulated in FOL that at least one of the Units must be an A2, and it should be in the scope note. Anyway, lack of knowledge may require that the necessary A2 is not documented. In that case, the FOL can make sure that one can infer such lack of knowledge. More generally, as Nicola Guarino has written in his foundational paper, formal ontologies try to minimize unintended applications, but cannot completely exclude them. All the best, Martin On 3/26/2021 10:23 PM, Achille Felicetti wrote: Dear Martin, Christian-Emil, Thank you for the interesting insights. For the scenario described by Martin I fully agree with what he writes and surely it makes sense to consider an embedding as distributed among different layers in the very common case in which it spans over multiple and stratigraphic strata of different kind (A2 + A3). However, the problem that I see is formal, since changing the range of AP19 would allow the definition of triples like the following: (X is-a A7 embedding) —> AP19 is embedding in —> (Y is-a A3 Stratigraphic Interface) that will become formally correct from the point of view of the model, but conceptually disputable in my opinion. I can't think of a solution that accommodates everything. Best, A. Il giorno 26 mar 2021, alle ore 19:35, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>> ha scritto: Dear Christian-Emil, Achille, When talking about embeddings, I am not so much thinking of an isolated item, but things like the Talheim Death Pit with thousands of bones, where each exact position is vital for the assignment to complete corpses. I am also thinking of a thing embedded by multiple layers. First the lower half, then the upper half. Should somehow be consistent with the physical relations. The first would provide the chronology when the deposition started. We can think of sets of Amphorae, upright metal objects or so, tall enough to be embedded by multiple layers. This would justify embedding in A8, and A3 interfaces taking part in the embedding, just as considering intersections of A3 Interfaces as physical relations. Best, Martin On 3/26/2021 4:49 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: You are quite correct, it would be a 2-dimentional embedding. In the 2D world a pencil stroke is a unpassable hindrance. On the other hand AP 9 is not a total property. And also not all persons can give birth at least not now. C-E ________________________________ From: Achille Felicetti <achille.felice...@pin.unifi.it><mailto:achille.felice...@pin.unifi.it> Sent: 26 March 2021 11:30 To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore Cc: crm-sig Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] CRMarcheo -embedding Dear Christian-Emil, I understand the practical need of this operation, but I also fear that this may cause further conceptual inconsistencies since, I imagine, in no way an embedding can be embedded in an A3 as the latter is a feature. I think it would be more fruitful to apply a constrain on the use of A2 in case an A7 is instantiated … Is this reasonable? Best, A. Il giorno 26 mar 2021, alle ore 09:27, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>> ha scritto: Dear all, In issue 447 the SIG has decided to make A7 Embedding a subclass of S20. Ok. In many excavations archaeologists record structures without specifying layer (A2) versus surface (A3). Therefore such documented things can only be modelled as instances of the A8, the superclass of A2 and A3. Currently * AP19 is embedding in (contains embedding) [[D: A7 Embedding; R: A2 Stratigraphic Volume Unit] To be able to document an embedding in the documentation described above, it would be beneficial to lift the range of AP19 to A8 Archeological Unit: AP19 is embedding in (contains embedding) [[D: A7 Embedding; R: A8 A8 Archeological Unit] Comments? Best, Christian-Emil _______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig _______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ------------------------------------ Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl _______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ------------------------------------ Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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