Following on this helpful new iteration of the thought by Martin maybe a phrasing like 'in distinction to facts established directly through / at the level of material physical processes and interactions' is more expressive of the content/intent?
On Thu., Feb. 3, 2022, 11:52 p.m. Martin Doerr via Crm-sig, < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > On 2/2/2022 10:36 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: > > Dear Martin, > > Thank you for your message and comments. > > The sentence in question is not the happiest, and George and myself were > not totally satisfied with the wording but it was necessary to send the > homework to the SIG. We can of course reword it and a refomulation that is > certainly also not the best one but expresses the same sense could be: > > " For facts which are established by convention as opposed to facts > observed in an objective manner > > sure, should be something like the material process characterizing the > events, > > Take an exemple. I organize a garden party and all my friends and guests > are happy. But there’s a major difference if I do this privately in 2019 or > if I’m a prime minister and there’s a COVID pandemic and I just imposed > restrictive measures on the whole population of my country. The [objective > / spatio-temporal] observed fact is the same, a crm:E5 garden party, but > the social ‘facts’ arount it —my social function, the law establishing that > garden parties are not allowed, etc. etc.— add a social overlay to the > event which —for humans living in society— changes everything and has > totally different consequences. CRMbase is concerned with objective > spatio-temporal facts (from E4 Period downward this is the substance of > facts : “This class comprises sets of coherent phenomena or cultural > manifestations occurring *in time **and space*.”) > > On the other hand, social facts are situated in another space that could > be called the intentional-temporal, that is to say, the space of phenomena > specific to human societies observed through the filter of their > conventions or collective representations. There is no opposition but a > perfect articulation because the social is grafted onto the spatio-temporal > (or the physical and biological) but adding an overlay that allows > different groups of humans to interpret the same ‘objective’ fact as being > two quite different situations: a totally normal and a big problem. > > But I propose to discuss all this, as you proposed earlier, in person at a > live, even if digital, meeting. > > Best > > Francesco > > > Le 02.02.22 à 20:11, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit : > > Dear Francesco, > > I find this text very well written and clear. My only question is, why: > > " For facts which are established by convention as opposed to pure > spatio-temporal facts," > > I do not see ground in the CRMbase, and the methodology applied, to regard > that facts which are described in the CRM are "pure spatio-temporal", even > if some of the classes and properties applied may describe only a > spatiotemporal confinement. The CRM is very clear that the substance of > Temporal Entities is not space-time. > > Further, respective facts you describe would be based on human activities, > and E7 is defined explicitly as being intentional in substance. > > Finally, and most important, there seems to be a misunderstanding of CRM > descriptions in general: no classification and properties of the CRM are > exhaustive or "pure" in any sense. This is also the major idea behind > multiple instantiation, and open world. Describing an item in terms of CRM > does not make any statement what else it is not, except for a few > definitely disjoint classes. > > Since this is a key concept of the CRM, part of the principles, it should > be discussed. To my understanding, no extension can be characterized as > "opposed to" another, it would violate its logical foundations. > > All the best, > > Martin > > > On 2/1/2022 2:13 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: > > Dear all, > > > Please find in attachment the homework of George Bruseker and myself > concerning "Issue 580: CRMsoc redefinition of scope" for presentation at > the next SIG. > > All the best, > > Francesco > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >
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