I'll consider changing my mind, especially as I read the Piper bit. I want to be convinced, though, and that may take time. Interesting true story: A young lady I was recently talking to -- one who was quite interested in dating me -- asked me about my views on children. As the conversation drifted to "ideal number of kids," I told her that I wanted as many as possible. I was honest about my views on birth control, and she completely ditched me because of it. She appeared to be stunned and appalled.
On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Bobby, > i will respond to this as time permits. i too think it would be good > if you changed your mind. :) > On Oct 13, 2008, at 6:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > Fellas, > > > > I know that all of you value God's word and believe that it should be > > treated with care and applied with caution. This is why I propose > > that we talk more about the controversial topic of birth control and > > the Bible. > > > > Most of you disagree with me on this topic, so I want to shift the > > focus off of me and onto a legitimate and real debate that is > > transpiring the Evangelical world today. Maybe if we sift through the > > arguments, we can come to agreement on this topic. I know that you > > all want harmony and peace between us, both interpersonally and in > > terms of our Biblical interpretation. Perhaps through some hard > > thinking and honest discussion, we can come to agreement, even if it > > means my changing my mind. First, I want to propose that this is a > > topic worthy of our interest. Very good Biblical commentators agree > > with the position that birth control is not okay according to the > > Bible. It's not just Catholics, but also well known -- indeed, famous > > -- Protestant reformers interpret Genesis 38:8-10 this way. And as > > we'll see from the Bayly sermon below, there are actually three > > scriptural lines of argument against Birth Control, although the > > following is the most notorius for "proving" the point: > > > > "Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife and perform > > the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your > > brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So > > whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on > > the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. And what he > > did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death > > also." > > > > Says John Calvin: > > > > "I will content myself with briefly mentioning this, as far as the > > sense of shame allows to discuss it. It is a horrible thing to pour > > out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately > > avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is > > doubly horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his > > family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. > > This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the > > Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and > > untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as > > cruel as shamefully was thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as > > much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. > > When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through > > aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was > > guilty of a similar crime, by defiling the earth with his seed, so > > that Tamar would not receive a future inheritor" (Commentary on > > Genesis). > > > > How good and careful was John Calvin in interpreting Scripture? > > Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius, after whom the anti-Calvinistic > > movement Arminianism was named, says with regard to the value of > > Calvin's writings: > > > > "Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I > > exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin's Commentaries, which I extol in > > loftier terms than Helmich himself (a Dutch divine, 1551–1608); for I > > affirm that he excels beyond comparison in the interpretation of > > Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued > > than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so > > that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather > > above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy. > > His Institutes ought to be studied after the (Heidelberg) Catechism, > > as containing a fuller explanation, but with discrimination, like the > > writings of all men." > > > > I like it that Arminius included the last part, "but with > > discrimination, like the writings of all men." We shouldn't take > > Calvin's word as the last word on this topic, but just whose word > > should we take? Our own? An authority on Scripture in today's > > world? > > > > One theologian I trust who disagrees with me is John Piper. Here is > > his stance on the issue: > > > http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/AskPastorJohn/ByTopic/45/1440_Does_the_Bible_permit_birth_control > > . > > His writings on this topic are definitely worth reading, and I will > > read them. But the deal I want to make with you all is this: If I > > read Piper's stance on this issue with care and take it seriously, I > > ask you to take the Calvinist stance on this issue seriously too. Is > > that a deal? So participating further in this discussion means that > > we will engage each other after "seeing it from the other person's > > point of view." I will carefully read the Piper selection. And > > whomever wants to engage this issue further can read the Bayly sermon > > below: > > > > For more on the "Bayly line" see > http://www.christtheword.com/Genesis%2038-1-11%20The%20Sin%20of%20Onan.pdf > > . > > > > Is this fair terms for further discussion? Isn't it important that we > > know the ins and outs of this controversial topic? Shouldn't we as > > thinking, intellectual, Christians know both sides of the Birth > > Control and the Bible issue? If you answers to these questions is > > yes, I look forward to discussing this topic with you! > > > > Your Brother In Christ, > > > > Bobby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. 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