Cryptography-Digest Digest #598, Volume #9 Wed, 26 May 99 14:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Oriental Language Based Encryption (Karl-Friedrich Lenz)
Re: Review of Scottu19 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: a question concerning the key-schedule of RC5/RC6 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Oriental Language Based Encryption (Patrick Juola)
Re: Give up; Scott is the unflappable undead. (Frank A. Vorstenbosch)
Re: RFC1321 (MD-5) - any problems? (David A Molnar)
RFC1321 (MD-5) - any problems? (Klaus Lindemann)
Re: IEEE floating-point arithmetic and cryptography (David A Molnar)
Re: Why would a hacker reveal that he has broken a code? ("Philip Hawthorne")
Re: Oriental Language Based Enryption (John Savard)
Re: non-computerized cryptography (John Savard)
Re: Oriental Language Based Encryption (Mok-Kong Shen)
Re: Oriental Language Based Enryption (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Re: request opinion/info : 1.5 Mbits/s public key scheme (Medical Electronics Lab)
Re: Why would a hacker reveal that he has broken a code? (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Re: request opinion/info : 1.5 Mbits/s public key scheme (Frank Gifford)
Re: Give up; Scott is the unflappable undead. (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Karl-Friedrich Lenz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Oriental Language Based Encryption
Date: 26 May 1999 06:19:53 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mok-Kong says...
>
>Through this public transformation it appears that methods that are
>based on frequency distributions like those for the Latin alphabets
>are less likely to be applicable. If there could be a standard
>(or quasi-standard) numerical coding of the English words, the
>same effect might be achieved.
I had the idea of using kanji (chinese characters) 20 years ago, when I started
learning Japanese. I agree with your point. There are frequency tables for
Japanese kanji, but the distribution is not as helpful for the attacking side as
with the very short English alphabet. With thousands of characters the
difference in frequency distribution is very slight for most of them.
You can do the same thing with English if you use a code system, as opposed to a
cipher.
Karl-Friedrich Lenz :-)
www.toptext.com/crypto
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Review of Scottu19
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:21:42 GMT
>The actual mode is a "wrapped PCBC" mode where the file is treated like
>a cylinder and many passes occur such that any one bit change in the input
> file changes the whole encrypted file.
So it's a OTP like cipher?
> Look at the past articles by Redburn he was first to calulate the
> actually entropy. But the key is such that every possible single cycle
> 19X19 bit S table is used. You find an S-table that is 19X19 and single
> cycle and you can get a key to porduce that S-table. The actual entroy
> or real key length is over one million bits. A far cry from 128 bits.
You cannot calculate entropy exactly though. How is the s-box used? It
can't be used in stream ciphers unless it is a function.
> Actually it is cleaned up. With scott16u I was able to compile it on my
You believe that. See the description of Blowfish or RC5, that is
organized. Scottu is not, sorry but thems the cookies.
Tom
--
PGP public keys. SPARE key is for daily work, WORK key is for
published work. The spare is at
'http://members.tripod.com/~tomstdenis/key_s.pgp'. Work key is at
'http://members.tripod.com/~tomstdenis/key.pgp'. Try SPARE first!
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---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: a question concerning the key-schedule of RC5/RC6
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:08:21 GMT
> In 'The Rc5 Encryption Algorithm' Prof. Rivest writes: 'the key-
> expansion function has certain amount of one-wayness: it is not so easy
> to determine K from S'.
> So, I wanted to ask whether it is already demonstrated how the secret
> key is achieved from the expanded key table. For now I haven't found
> anything, but my sources are somehow limited. I am asking, because I
> worked on such process, and for now everything looks fine.
Well RC5 achieves the one-wayness by passing over the array three times,
in a forward motion. From what I remember (I don't have the paper with
me) it has some form of feedback with a data-dependant rotation. The
fact that it passes over the array three times makes the last entry
effect the first one and so on... for example if the array was ABC the
key expansion works like this
ABCABCABC
And finding the first C from the last is as difficult as determining the
B or A...
I will check the paper out tonight when I get home if you need more
info. Plus many others may have more formal comments.
Tom
--
PGP public keys. SPARE key is for daily work, WORK key is for
published work. The spare is at
'http://members.tripod.com/~tomstdenis/key_s.pgp'. Work key is at
'http://members.tripod.com/~tomstdenis/key.pgp'. Try SPARE first!
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Patrick Juola)
Subject: Re: Oriental Language Based Encryption
Date: 26 May 1999 10:34:03 -0400
In article <7igsdp$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Karl-Friedrich Lenz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mok-Kong says...
>>
>>Through this public transformation it appears that methods that are
>>based on frequency distributions like those for the Latin alphabets
>>are less likely to be applicable. If there could be a standard
>>(or quasi-standard) numerical coding of the English words, the
>>same effect might be achieved.
>
>I had the idea of using kanji (chinese characters) 20 years ago, when I started
>learning Japanese. I agree with your point. There are frequency tables for
>Japanese kanji, but the distribution is not as helpful for the attacking side as
>with the very short English alphabet. With thousands of characters the
>difference in frequency distribution is very slight for most of them.
Actually, word-based frequency distribution is very important and
informative in the context of computational linguistics -- and also
extremely well studied, so there are a lot of very powerful results
out there.
Encoding based on linguistic units has a rather serious problem of
leaving a lot of (redundant) structure in the text.
-kitten
------------------------------
From: Frank A. Vorstenbosch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Give up; Scott is the unflappable undead.
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:17:35 GMT
In article <T0B23.12962$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (TTK Ciar)
wrote:
> When I stopped reading sci.crypt over a year ago, Scott was spewing
> vague, uneducated nonsense all over the newsgroup and plugged his toy
> cryptosystem at every opportunity, ignoring anyone's requests (mean or
> not) for him to elaborate on his assumptions, support his half-formed
> arguments, or just shut the hell up.
>
> Now I'm back, and one of the first posts I see is a vague paranoid
> bullshit rant from Scott about block ciphers vs stream ciphers, the
> NSA, and his toy cryptosystem. He doesn't seem to have changed at
> all, even after all that time.
Are you kidding? It is for people like SCOOT19.ZIP.GUY that I read
this group. It certainly livens up the day having something amusing
to read.
Frank
--
Frank A. Vorstenbosch
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---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
------------------------------
From: David A Molnar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RFC1321 (MD-5) - any problems?
Date: 26 May 1999 15:29:29 GMT
Klaus Lindemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Also could there be any problems in implementing this algorithm
> yourself or should one go for one of the commercial
> implementations?
What are you using it for? Do questions of liability enter into
it? There's always 'problems' with implementing an algorithm
yourself, insofar as it can be some work. There are test vectos
for MD5 which will let you check your implementation, though,
so you can eventually assure yourself that you are close to
the standard.
By the way, do you really need MD5, or just a hash function?
It may be worth considering SHA-1 and/or the RIPE-MD family
as well, since they can provide longer hashes.
------------------------------
From: Klaus Lindemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RFC1321 (MD-5) - any problems?
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:37:44 GMT
Hi All
I have been looking at the MD-5 specification given in RFC1321.
The RFC dates back to April 1992, so my question is whether
there has been any updates to this RFC since, e.g. small
error corrections, enhancements etc.?
Also could there be any problems in implementing this algorithm
yourself or should one go for one of the commercial
implementations?
Thanks in advance.
Klaus
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
------------------------------
From: David A Molnar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: IEEE floating-point arithmetic and cryptography
Date: 26 May 1999 14:43:35 GMT
D. J. Bernstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is a well-known class of message authentication systems
> guaranteeing that attackers will have a negligible chance of
> successfully forging a message. This paper shows how one of these
> systems can hash messages at extremely high speed---much more quickly
> than previous systems at the same security level---using IEEE
> floating-point arithmetic.
> The rounding properties specified by IEEE are crucial here; you have to
> implement the system differently if you're faced with a non-IEEE Cray.
> Fortunately, IEEE floating-point arithmetic is now widespread. The same
> techniques can also be used to speed up modular exponentiation.
Now this _is_ interesting! Is a preprint available anywhere?
Also, what rounding are you counting on -- just round to nearest,
or do you want one of the other modes as well ? What happens if
an implementation is almost compliant ? Do you know how well it
has to test on PARANOIA before this works?
i
Thanks,
-David Molnar
------------------------------
From: "Philip Hawthorne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why would a hacker reveal that he has broken a code?
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:56:23 +0100
I don't think I'm a fool but then I'm not American and am a doctor; I can
comment with a little more factual data than the 'me too' hearsay brigade.
SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY wrote in message <7iebuh$29im$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>In article <7idtkj$6j5$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Philip Hawthorne"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Sure. That explains why every patient whose has investigations for PUD
>>(peptic ulcer disease) routinely has a Clo-test done? And if the Clo-test
is
>>positive for helicobacter species starts eradication treatment? Or maybe
the
>>several clinical studies showing that helicobacter is _a_ causal agent,
not
>>_the_ causal agent should be ignored? Maybe sticking to factual data
rather
>>than broad, inaccurate, sweeping statements about unconnected disciplines
>>would be be useful.
>>
>>
>>Philip Hawthorne
>>
>
> I have had friends that just short a time a ago as 1995 where being
treated
>for uclers and they could not belive that the doctors where not curing
them.
>One of them after checking the stuff on the internet went to another doctor
>in a big city and got his uclers cured. I am not sure what happened to the
>other friend and I think your a fool if you think EVERY patient the doctors
>think have PUD get tested. You almost seem to think that all doctors care
>about people and not lining there pocket books. While my friend good caring
>doctors in the US went the way of the DODO bird. They stopped caring when
>they stopped making house calls. Your the one making broad statements.
>What happened to this doctor that invented the cure that cost the american
>medical union millions of dollars each year. And yes Mr Hamilton I will not
>reveal my friends names to you.
>
>>> It took more than 15 years for his discovery to be accepted, but now
>>>the medical reference books all mention the "Helicobacter Pylori" as
>>>the prime suspect in peptic ulcer (for those who read these books).
>>>On the other hand, practicing physicians keep this information hidden
>>>from their patients, and repeatedly perscribe diet, acid reducers and
>>>other Bl-St so that patients would return to them year after year.
>>>
>>> Moral: never go to a doctor without doing your homework first.
>>> remember - all doctors are in business, they care first
>>> about their checkbook, then about their business partners,
>>> and then, (maybe...) about your well-being.
>>>
>
> The trouble is many people get stuck with the HMO doctors who
>have to run people through in factory speed so even if the doctor gave
>a damn about people and was semi confident. The bean counters
>would jump on them if they took to long. It would be nice if the AMerican
>doctors union allowed more doctors in this country but then that might
>effect the profit line.
>
>
>>> Best wishes BNK
>>>> --
>>>> SCOTT19U.ZIP NOW AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE
>>>> http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/scott19u.zip
>>>> http://members.xoom.com/ecil/index.htm
>>>> NOTE EMAIL address is for SPAMERS
>>
>>
>
>
>David A. Scott
>--
> SCOTT19U.ZIP NOW AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE
> http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/scott19u.zip
> http://members.xoom.com/ecil/index.htm
> NOTE EMAIL address is for SPAMERS
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Savard)
Subject: Re: Oriental Language Based Enryption
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:21:04 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in part:
>> I would be interested in learning a little more about some Oriental
>> language based encryption processes and systems. If anybody has any
>> information about this, please feel free to let me know .... Cheers !
>> Markku
>What type of cipher? I have never heard of any language dependant
>cipher in my life (outside of anagrams...)
Well, Chinese doesn't have a convenient default representation as
sequences of symbols taken from a small set. So, in enciphering that
language, one has to first take the noticeable step of converting it
to such a representation: i.e., telegraph code, Big5, GuoBiao.
John Savard ( teneerf<- )
http://members.xoom.com/quadibloc/index.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Savard)
Subject: Re: non-computerized cryptography
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:08:17 GMT
©ú¥Õ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, in part:
>The trends in cryptography undeniably have shifted to 100%
>computer-based systems. But is there anything still being written about
>systems which do NOT rely on a computer to generate 1024 bit prime
>numbers??
There are a lot of computer-based systems which don't use large prime
numbers. Public-key cryptography is the newest cryptologic frontier,
but it isn't the whole field. Computers can be used to automate
pencil-and-paper ciphers, or to simulate rotor machines or the Hagelin
lug and pin machines.
There certainly are new things being written about non-computer
cryptography in some areas:
- as a form of recreation (see the Crypto Drop Box of the American
Cryptogram Association)
- from the historical perspective
If you mean, "are papers being published in the recognized academic
literature, proposing pencil-and-paper ciphers which are secure by
today's standards of cryptosecurity", the answer is no, even though
such ciphers are not actually impossible to devise.
It is, after all, only the military that has a requirement for secure
cipher systems that can be used even under awkward circumstances that
preclude access to a computer.
John Savard ( teneerf<- )
http://members.xoom.com/quadibloc/index.html
------------------------------
From: Mok-Kong Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Oriental Language Based Encryption
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:16:59 +0200
Patrick Juola wrote:
>
> Encoding based on linguistic units has a rather serious problem of
> leaving a lot of (redundant) structure in the text.
Just take several pages of an English dictionary, if you assign some
4 digits of numbers (consecutively in each page), and take some
coded words, if you scramble a little bit, do you think you can
get something of the sort of frequency (of the digits) useful to
you?
M. K. Shen
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Subject: Re: Oriental Language Based Enryption
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:21:52 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(John Savard) wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in part:
>
>>> I would be interested in learning a little more about some Oriental
>>> language based encryption processes and systems. If anybody has any
>>> information about this, please feel free to let me know .... Cheers !
>>> Markku
>
>>What type of cipher? I have never heard of any language dependant
>>cipher in my life (outside of anagrams...)
>
>Well, Chinese doesn't have a convenient default representation as
>sequences of symbols taken from a small set. So, in enciphering that
>language, one has to first take the noticeable step of converting it
>to such a representation: i.e., telegraph code, Big5, GuoBiao.
>
Gee Tom never saw your first memo
but one the most effective crypto systems in the
war was the Navhajo language. That is almost like
using an orieintal langiage encryption against the orieintals
during WWII
David A. Scott
--
SCOTT19U.ZIP NOW AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE
http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/scott19u.zip
http://members.xoom.com/ecil/index.htm
NOTE EMAIL address is for SPAMERS
------------------------------
From: Medical Electronics Lab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: request opinion/info : 1.5 Mbits/s public key scheme
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:44:53 -0500
Karel Wouters wrote:
> who knows something about the Tame Transformation Method (TTM) ?
> It has been proposed in 1997 by prof. T.T.Moh at Purdue Univ.
> It is a public key encryption system that operates at approx
> 1.5 Mbits/s for encoding (8.5 Mbits/s for decoding). Furthermore, the
> author claims that the software implementation is faster and safer than
> _any_ (hardware !) implementation of RSA. It also provides
> error-correction and master keys. The method is based on maps between
> affine spaces over a small field of characteristic 2.[...]
Howdy Karel,
I'd suggest contacting Prof. Moh directly. The more work done
on his stuff, the more acceptable it becomes. I'd expect it's
to his advantage to help you understand the details.
If he doesn't respond favorably, I'd be supprised, but let us
know here!
Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Subject: Re: Why would a hacker reveal that he has broken a code?
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:42:49 GMT
In article <7ih5ls$gl4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Philip Hawthorne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I don't think I'm a fool but then I'm not American and am a doctor; I can
>comment with a little more factual data than the 'me too' hearsay brigade.
>
You may be a doctor but you yourself said that your not an American.
I am an american (well at lest untill some other country hires me HELLO
CHINESE REDS need help. I am unemployed and can travel) and the doctors
are rich in this country and they plan to stay that way. If you followed this
thread at all I am not the only American who is aware of the easy cure for
uclers. And I am sure most American doctors are also aware of this cure
but the individual who invented it was treat like shit in this country for
years. Doctors in this country are more concerned with lining there pockets
with cash instead of helping people. Maybe you live in a more primative
country where doctors actually give a dam about people. And maybe in
your country politicains don't routinely lie to that masses and as a matter of
policy accept money form hostile governments to line there pockets.
Well my friend society over here mirrors our government. To be succsessful
in poltics and society it is usually the biggest crookest liar that gets to
the top.
Know back to the crypto topic. People like Terry Ritter (or me) will never
be in the postion to make sweeping statements on crypto that will get
blessed by the press because we are not dishonest enough to rasie to the
top of the field. Or there are exceptions in politics like Jessie Ventura but
Hollywood and the media have teamed up to bring this good man down.
All the press can do to belittle him is stress his wrestleing phase of life.
But he is an honest man a rarity among poliitcinas and and ex navy seal
and having the honor to know some seals I can assure you they are very
bright.
David A. Scott
--
SCOTT19U.ZIP NOW AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE
http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/scott19u.zip
http://members.xoom.com/ecil/index.htm
NOTE EMAIL address is for SPAMERS
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Frank Gifford)
Subject: Re: request opinion/info : 1.5 Mbits/s public key scheme
Date: 26 May 1999 13:40:21 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Karel Wouters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>who knows something about the Tame Transformation Method (TTM) ?
>...
>A complete description of the scheme can be found at
>http://www.usdsi.com/
I looked this over and I seem to recall reading about it a little while
back. I'm always suspicious of contests which require finding the key
as opposed to breaking a message.
As a favorite example of mine, one could encrypt two messages with RC4
with the same key and get the same key stream encrypting the two messages
(I will point out in the same breath that Cipher Saber works around this
problem). So if I get the two encrypted messages, I can usually recover
both of the messages. In my mind, this is 'solving' the contest. But
in their requirements, I have not since I haven't determined the initial
key which was used.
Bruce Schneier has a good write up on his website at Counterpane about
snake-oil and related contests. I think this would fall under that
category. http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-9812.html#contests
-Giff
--
Too busy for a .sig
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (SCOTT19U.ZIP_GUY)
Subject: Re: Give up; Scott is the unflappable undead.
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:18:53 GMT
In article <7igvps$q55$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Frank A. Vorstenbosch
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <T0B23.12962$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (TTK Ciar)
>wrote:
>
>> When I stopped reading sci.crypt over a year ago, Scott was spewing
>> vague, uneducated nonsense all over the newsgroup and plugged his toy
>> cryptosystem at every opportunity, ignoring anyone's requests (mean or
>> not) for him to elaborate on his assumptions, support his half-formed
>> arguments, or just shut the hell up.
>>
>> Now I'm back, and one of the first posts I see is a vague paranoid
>> bullshit rant from Scott about block ciphers vs stream ciphers, the
>> NSA, and his toy cryptosystem. He doesn't seem to have changed at
>> all, even after all that time.
>
>Are you kidding? It is for people like SCOOT19.ZIP.GUY that I read
>this group. It certainly livens up the day having something amusing
>to read.
>
>Frank
Thanks Frank
The main reason I wrote so much on this group is not only to piss the
phony crypto gods off but to entertain the more open minded individuals
like yourself. Now for another entertaining thought. We have a token jewish
person in jail for spying (Pollard unless Clinton has let him go yet) and we
may soon have a token Chinese in jail (Lee). But beside the unusal story
of not being able to abtain a wire tap on him. Which I find incredabel since
you wave most of your rights as a citizen when you get clearance at his level
and the circus of asking for a wite tap is usually avoided in the first place.
Is any one in congress going to find out why this waiver was not used in the
first place and why was his the only wiretap that reached the janet reno level
that was turned down. Don't tell me there was probably cause in all the other
cases and not this. If you belive that kind of Bullshit then you might as well
belive the Chinese only give Clinton a pile of money becasue he is a great man
of god. But enough of that. I think it is common knowledge we gave most our
nuclear secrets to the Isreals and besides giving them Uranium and we may
even have helped in the design of there arsenal that could be some day used
to take out the Ashwan (bad spelling I know) dam. Maybe the secrets where
leaked from the isreals to the chinese has anyone thought of that.
Just a thought.
And thanks again Frank keep on reading
David A. Scott
--
SCOTT19U.ZIP NOW AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE
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NOTE EMAIL address is for SPAMERS
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