Friends,
_____Regarding the problem (solved! I hope...)
Well, I thought I would be symmetric and finish out the thread represented
by the subject. This list runs on the extraordinary generosity of the
experts hereon offering their time and knowledge to others; even so, I was
not successful at getting anyone on the list to offer information regarding
the printing problem I had. Several responded about other aspects of the
situation and some had comments, and I thank them all, again.
To refresh, I wanted to find a stable, scalable, cross-browser,
syntactically valid way to display and print documents with arbitrarily
numbered paragraphs. As well, I wanted to use low caloric markup.
In working with the challenge, I have been (as before) using a DL/DT/DD
structure, which some said was not semantic (more on that point below), and
initially I had good screen display-- indeed, I've got a number of examples
that display well, and did when I first posted on this-- but all had a
variety of intractable problems with printing. In looking around I was not
able to find good information on how to overcome those problems. None of
the examples of DL/DT/DD lists I had seen used enough text for the DD, and
all were painfully shy of a full page, which is when the problems I was
seeing really cropped up-- that is, when the DL had to be broken into pages.
Then I ran across an article on ALA [1] by Eric, which in part said:
"...Gecko-based browsers like Netscape 6.x or Mozilla have a
problem with
printing long floated elements. If a floated element runs past the
bottom of a
printed page, the rest of the float will effectively disappear, as
it won't be printed
on the next page.
I had that problem and others, and I was seeing it on IE as well as FF, but
the article, in part and in essence, suggested that the problem was related
to floating... (Today I found further information on the wiki for this list
[2]-- although I found it after I had solved the problem, and some of what
it says there did not bear fruit for me...)
Thus armed, within the limits of my ability to test locally (and after
expending 4 googles of calories), I have solved the problems I was having,
using valid XHTML and CSS (with apologies to Peter, who wanted me to try
XML). The solution scales well with font sizes up to 30px or so, and the
CSS is liberally commented regarding what I found. To wit:
http://www.h4c.org/testing/test-11.html (all CSS is in-line)
I have FF 1.0.4 XP and IE 6.0.29..., and it works well in both, for display
and printing, as described (i.e. at a variety of font sizes). I would
appreciate it if those on the list would hit it with other browsers to see
what may be seen.
_____Regarding semantics...
One of those who helped said that he did not "see the logic or reason
behind the use of a definition list for numbered paragraphs. As you have it
now, the <dt> has little meaning or relation to the <dd>. The number is
hardly a term and the paragraph doesn't describe it." He went on to suggest
using an Hx/P structure, where the heading would contain the number, and
the paragraph would contain the text.
I initially gave the criticism some credence, based on what I would have
also assumed about the meaning of "definition" list, and I constructed
several test cases using Hx/P structures. However, with further
experience-- and having been back to the specification regarding this
point-- it seem to me that using the Hx/P structure is not by any means
semantically superior. After all, the paragraph numbers are certainly not
headers...
The spec [3 and 4] offers the following example:
< DL>
< DT><STRONG>Lower cost</STRONG>
< DD>The new version of this product costs significantly
less than the previous one!
< DT><STRONG>Easier to use</STRONG>
< DD>We've changed the product so that it's much easier
to use!
< DT><STRONG>Safe for kids</STRONG>
< DD>You can leave your kids alone in a room with this
product and they won't get hurt (not a guarantee).
< /DL>
In the above "official" sample, the DTs are hardly terms, and the DDs don't
describe them. Indeed, the example is one that most of us would probably
handle with a header/paragraph format.
The associated text says "Definition lists, created using the DL element,
generally consist of a series of term/definition pairs _(although
definition lists may have other applications)_ [emphasis added]. Thus, when
advertising a product, one might use a definition list". Likewise, the
spec says that:
Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues,
with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her
words.
These phrases and the example, to me, clearly mean that definition lists
should be looked upon in a fairly utilitarian manner, and if they solve a
unique problem-- where there something with a repeating pattern of short
text associated with long text-- DL's your uncle, and if you use it, you
are still pure and will still attain to heaven. That is, I would argue that
since in this case the numbering or identification of paragraphs cannot in
all cases be handled by an OL (3c, 3d, etc.), in this case, the use of a DL
structure is semantically correct, allowable, useful, rational and proper.
I may still be a troglodyte, but it may be that the angels too, are pragmatic.
[1] http://www.alistapart.com/articles/goingtoprint/
[2] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=DefinitionList
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html#h-10.1
[4] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
d.
David William House
AllHear, Inc.
P.O. Box 330 / 23022 Yeary Lane N.E.
Aurora, OR 97002-0330 USA
(503) 266-6730 (voice) / (503) 266-6418 (fax)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (e-mail)
http://www.AllHear.com (corporate web site)
"Make no search for water.
But find thirst,
And water from the very ground will burst."
(Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in Delight of Hearts, p. 77)
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