-Caveat Lector-
Stopforth, Jamie wrote:
> I don't think it fair to simply say that we respond to contridictive
>"proof" with "God said." Each and every time I've backed my position with
>evidence. Biblical as well as World Historical.
>
>>>>THUS proselytizing (and not just in religious areas either) is
>not permitted BECAUSE their is no way to get "true believers" to recant
>their
>position and agree that they are wrong since these things involve personal
>belief and faith, which are both unassailable to rational argument<<<
> You're assuming we're wrong here... If you would like a rational argument
>email me with your thoughts on Christianity, I'd be glad to discuss it with
>you, or anyone.
>
> On a side note here, have you ever asked why it is we believe in the
>Biblical God?
>
>Jamie
"Science has proof without any certainty.
Creationists have certainty without any proof"
[Ashley Montague]
Due to recent debate on this list, this topic has been dubbed "Freewill under an
omniscient
creator".
This is fundamentally one of the most important arguments I can present for or against
the
existence of God, because it ties in so many concepts central to the core of
Christianity.
With this argument, I want to show that God cannot be our omniscient creator and allow
us freewill at the same time.
With Christianity, Christ is central to atoning for the sins of mankind. Had there
been no sins
of mankind, the story of Christ would fall apart. So we look at the nature of sin. If
God
created all and what he created had elements of evil, didn't God therefore create evil?
This is where the argument for the existence of freewill comes in, one such supporter
would contend that because God created man with freewill, it was man who chose to sin
and God is not responsible. If I can show that freewill must exist, then the original
sin is
truly a sin and therefore mankind needed Christ and the story of Christianity holds
ground.
However, if I can show that freewill cannot exist, then man is not responsible for his
sins,
for he never chose to sin. This would imply that God created evil and would have
serious
implications to the validity of Christianity.
>From observational data, most humans would contend that we have freewill. However, as
the history of science has pointed out, what appears to be going on is not always
intuitively
true. So, what we can infer is that from our human frame of reference, we have
freewill.
Does this automatically mean that we have freewill on any frame of reference, including
God's frame?
So how can we look at God's frame, which is supposedly incomprehensible? I argue that
looking at this frame is essential to whether or not one becomes a Christian, and
being that
we are judged on how whether or not you become one, I find it okay to look at certain
aspects of God's frame. Do you agree? I find that God's perspective is omniscient.
There
are numerous hints in the bible which suggest that God is of this all-knowing nature,
most obvious of which is I John 3:20. What would it be like to be omniscient and a
creator?
If God is omniscient and creates, then he knows all possible ways of creating. He can
create a universe with properties "A" or he can create a universe with properties "B".
In
fact, there are tons if not an infinite amount of universes he could have created. All
he had
to do is choose one universe, and he chose our universe. This universe he chose
includes
all of the decisions we as humans make, because the decisions we make effect the
universe, and when he makes the universe, he can see in every way the universe will be
effected because he is omniscient. Hence the multiple possible universes to begin with
makes sense, each possible universe includes a different path for different decisions
made
by people concerning the same choice.
To put my ramblings into a nutshell (I know some people on this list prefer quick
‘hits’ as opposed to ‘length ‘ – hello TEO1000!!! ;-) )
God is omniscient, and knows all possible outcomes of all possible
creations of all possible universes. He chooses one of these universes
in creation and executes. In doing so, he chooses the paths of our lives.
You see, I strongly argue that by being omniscient, the universe is completely
deterministic to God, and by being a creator, he cannot allow freewill to exist unless
the universe is no longer predetermined to him. Free will is not something you can
create - it is a consequence of the lack of omniscience and the ability to create.
We can accept God as omniscient and us as robots. If not, we must accept God as not
omniscient and his human creations have freewill. I have decided to not accept God
because I do not believe a God who can only exist under these two conditions does not
exist.
I have received numerous responses to this argument on another list. Virtually every
one of them argues the same - and virtually every one does not take into account the
part about God creating us. Here's a typical response:
Let's say you have two cars travelling along a one laned road really fast
towards each other, and you are on a hillside. You can see the pending
crash before it happens, but does that mean you made it happen, just
because you knew beforehand it would happen?
This typical response does not take into account that God created us. If you take into
account that you created every molecule of the car, including the people, and gave each
particle its initial position and energy, including all particles that could possibly
interact in
any way with the system, then yes, you made the two cars collide, just as God would
control our actions if he were omniscient and our creator in every respect.
To say that god is good is meaningless unless his alleged goodness is
to be judged by some independent criterion -- that is, by human values.
Therefore, when god-believers argue that human values must come from god
they are chasing their own tails.
[Barbara Smoker]
If God is omniscient, that would mean he would know his own future. If God knows his
own
future, then that would mean that he would not have the power to change it. Being that
God is considered omnipotent (all-powerful), this is a serious objection to his
omniscient
nature. However, if God was able to change his own future, that would mean that God
would not know when he would make sudden changes in his future and what changes
would result, meaning he is no longer omniscient. So as you can see, the qualities of
omniscience and omnipotence cannot be simultaneously held by God.
Basically, God cannot be omniscient and allow free will at the same time.
I'd be interested to see if anyone else agrees (Jamie?????).
Richard B.
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