-Caveat Lector- ----------------------------------------------------------------- BOSNIA: HOW THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND MEDIA HAVE FAILED AND MISLED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ========================================== Special thanks to my "Chicago connection" for sending a videotape of a public access program, "Broadsides", which was taped on June 6, 1995. Host is Mr. Sherman Skolnick of the Citizens' Committee to Clean Up the Courts; co-host is Mr. Robert E. Cleveland, an attorney and associate of Mr. Skolnick. Guests are James Nagle, an attorney with the law firm of Querry & Harrow, Andrew B. Spiegel, also an attorney, and Mike Pavlovic, a Serbian-American. Pardon spelling errors. If you know the correct spellings, please let me know. Contact info: Andrew B. Spiegel, PO Box 396, Wheaton, IL 60187 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Hi. Thanks for watching "Broadsides". I'm Sherman Skolnick, sitting in for our moderator, Cliff Kelley. We have an interesting program this evening. It's about "Bosnia: How the State Department and the Media Have Failed the American People". And we have with us three gentlemen that have just come back; they've been on a goodwill tour to promote peace in the Bosnia area. We have James Nagle, a trial attorney with Querry & Harrow in Wheaton; an International Law expert, Andrew B. Spiegel; and Mr. Spiegel's client, Mike Pavlovic. And, as a guest panelist, we have a Chicago lawyer, Robert E. Cleveland. And we're gonna be discussing some things here that you probably will not see on the media because, apparently, the media doesn't want you to know this, and apparently the State Department doesn't want you to know it. And *were* the American people to know more about this (what we're gonna discuss in this program), probably there would be peace in that area. Why don't you start, Mr. Spiegel, and tell us about this letter which you have, that you feel would've made peace, if Clinton would have done something about it. ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, Sherman, the letter you refer to is a letter dated April 22nd, 1995. It's a letter that President Radovan Karadzic [CN -- Please pardon the levity, but this may help you picture who Karadzic is: my nickname for him is "hairdo".], the president of the Republic of Srpska, wrote (with our assistance) after we met with him in Pale [PALL-ay], which is the capital of the Republic of Srpska. (The Republic of Srpska is the Serbian section of Bosnia.) SHERMAN SKOLNICK: I think, Mr. Pavlovic, we can start with the history. I think you're prepared to tell us about the history of this area from about 1914 to 1980. And then Mr. Nagle will take it from there. MIKE PAVLOVIC: I can say that, 1914, we had start First World War, from Sarajevo. At that time was assassination of Prince Ferdinand(?) from Austria. And that time, before world war finished, we had monarchs in Yugoslavia; they create country as Yugoslavia. We create country from Slovenia, Croatia, and Serbia that time. And what... From that time, we had monarch until 1941. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Was the arrangement of the boundary lines to promote peace over that period, or not? MIKE PAVLOVIC: *That* time is not. They had only, they created one country as, called Yugoslavia. ROBERT CLEVELAND: That was created by the Versailles Treaty, is that not correct? MIKE PAVLOVIC: That's true. And then, after King Peter the First took over the country, that was, at that time, monarchy of the, of Yugoslavia. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: During the Second World War, I understand that one of the factions that lives in that area, the Croats, very much co- operated with the Nazis. In fact, in some ways, they were more brutal than the Nazis (if that's possible): the Ustashe(sp?). Can you tell us a little bit about that? MIKE PAVLOVIC: I can tell you one thing: that is, that time they create, in Croatia... they work together, with Germany. They create a special army they call Ustashe. And that time, Second World War, they kill maybe 750,000 Serbs -- massacred -- in Serbia and Croatia. ROBERT CLEVELAND: The Nazis had come in and took over the country; they conquered it from the monarchy. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In other words, the monarchy during that period brought a certain amount of peace and tranquility to that region? MIKE PAVLOVIC: That time was peace, all the time. But when start Second World War, they start separating. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What about in the postwar period? I think some of us know there was a "strong man" by the name of Tito [TEE-toe]. Can you tell us a little bit about that? MIKE PAVLOVIC: That time, it was 1941 that Tito came in power. And during that time of war was several leaders in the Yugoslavia. That time was, like General [Unclear] who save all those 750 American pilots. (I hope this pilot we have right now... I hope is alive and safe. [O'Grady, probably, during June 1995]) SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So was there, in the postwar period, tranquility and peace, because you had (more or less) a dictator by the name of Tito? MIKE PAVLOVIC: Yes. There was, at that time, a communist system dictating all the life until 1980. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Well some claim that Tito wasn't *quite* within the Soviet bloc. In other words, he was in some instances disagreeing with the Moscow government. But it was similar, in other words. MIKE PAVLOVIC: Yugoslavia was independent communist system. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And that brought us up to the period of 1980. MIKE PAVLOVIC: 1980, yes. Up to 1980. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And I think Mr. Nagle is prepared to tell us a little bit about from 1980 until now. JAMES NAGLE: >From 1980 to 1991, Yugoslavia was a complex country, and there was a saying used to describe this: it was, "One country, with two alphabets, three religions, four main languages, five nationalities, six republics, and it was bordered by seven countries." SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Did they get along over the centuries? Or have they been killing each other more or less repeatedly? JAMES NAGLE: What happened in 1980, Tito passed away. In 1990-91, Germany re- unified. At that time, Croatia attempted to secede from Yugoslavia. Germany was the first country to recognize Croatia. At this time, Yugoslavia did not want one of its republics to secede. So they called in the Yugoslav National Army in an attempt to suppress the secession. But at that time, the international community put pressure on Yugoslavia to back off. The situation that gives rise to the current conflict is that there are many Serbs who have lived in Croatia for thousands of years who do *not* want to live under Croatian rule. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Why is that? JAMES NAGLE: In World War II there were between 750,000 and one-and-a-half million Serbs that were killed in concentration camps... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: By the Ustashe? JAMES NAGLE: Well, in other words, Germany was occupying this portion of the country, but the Croatians were Nazi sympathizers. In other words, after World War II, when Tito came into power he wanted to unify Yugoslavia. So he swept this genocide "under the carpet", so to speak. You can imagine how the Jewish people would feel if the Holocaust was swept "under the carpet". But now, at this time [1990-91], Croatia's saying, "We're going to be our own country, govern ourselves." And obviously, the Serbian people living in Croatia do not want that to happen. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Fifty years after the war, would the Croatians that live in Chicago disagree with this? If I, for one, raise the issue that even fifty years after the war there still is -- oh, I don't know -- a "pro-German" "pro-Nazi" twist to Croatia, is that fair? Or is that unfair? JAMES NAGLE: I can only speak from what we saw happen. Obviously, Croatia seceded at that time and Germany was the first country to recognize Croatia. It's my personal opinion that, obviously, a deal was made *before* Croatia seceded. But it's the same conflict that we have in Bosnia-Hercegovina. There are many Serbs that have lived in Bosnia for thousands of years that don't want to live under Muslim rule. When Bosnia also attempted to secede from Yugoslavia... the same situation. The president of Bosnia wants to start, basically, a fundamentally Islamic state, and have Serbs who are Eastern Orthodox that don't want to live under Islamic rule. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In Chicago there are descendants of all these factions, right? There's Moslems, there's Serbs, there's Croats -- all these different factions live in the Chicago area. Am I correct? JAMES NAGLE: Yes. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Do they get along with one another? Or do they (unknown to the rest of us) fight around? MIKE PAVLOVIC: There's lots of good Croatian people, lots of good Moslem people, lots of good Serbian people. But that time, the Second World War, Ustashe was organization that was able to work together with German Nazis. I have a Croatian guy at work in my office, together with me. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So that makes it a little sensitive? MIKE PAVLOVIC: It's not sensitive. We are very reasonable about talking about what's going on; we don't want war. We want to stop killing. That's very important. And I *know* that we can stop killing! And *then*, we start negotiating. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So for that purpose, the three of you formed a goodwill mission earlier this year [1995]. Tell us a little bit about it. What was the idea behind it? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well Mike has been very concerned about the situation in Yugoslavia, which was his homeland. He came up with the idea at the beginning of this year that if the Serbs could live under a system of government like we have in the United States, that would help solve the problem. So he asked me to put together a document that they could use to form this type of government. So we put together a "declaration of independence agreement" that was modelled on the Declaration of Independence of the United States; we put together a constitution that was modelled on our own Constitution, but taking out some of the defects in our Constitution that has let the U.S. government get way out of control -- at least in my opinion. And [Unclear] hand-carried these documents to President Karadzic in Pale, which is the capital of the Republic of Srpska. In January, he had invited us to put together a delegation to consult with them in Pale about their use of this declaration. It's important for your audience to understand the legal situation here. Yugoslavia was made up of six republics. It was a violation of the Yugoslav Constitution for any republic to secede from Yugoslavia. At the time, in 1991, Yugoslavia was a member of the United Nations. *Three* of the six republics -- Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia -- decided that they were going to secede, in violation of the Yugoslav Constitution. In order to stop that, the leader of Yugoslavia, President Milosovich(sp?), not unlike our own President Lincoln, sent in the national army to stop them from seceding from Yugoslavia. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Is that a quick and simplistic way of trying to understand a complicated thing? That when one of the provinces, like the southern states, tried to secede from the national government, it caused the American Civil War? (At least that's what some people think caused it.) Is that an uncomplicated way of trying to understand what appears to be a civil war in Yugoslavia? ANDREW SPIEGEL: That's only part of it. The second part of it is that the Serbs living in Croatia and the Serbs living in Bosnia -- like the Virginians living in West Virginia -- did not want it to secede from Yugoslavia. So *they* seceded from the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia and set up their own independent republic which was independent from *those* republics, but not independent from Yugoslavia. So today, in fact, the constitutions of Croina(sp?) (which is the Serb republic in Croatia) and the Republic of Srpska (which is the Serb republic in Bosnia) -- it's a violation of those constitutions for them to secede from Yugoslavia! SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Bob, you've studied this thing. What's your take on what appears to be a civil war over there? ROBERT CLEVELAND: Well it appears to be a matter of these people looking out for their own problems and not being subject to outside interference. For whatever reason that may be, certain European countries wish to get in and interfere in the guise of "peacekeeping", when there *is* no peace! SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Who's interfering? The Germans? ROBERT CLEVELAND: The Germans and the French... proclivity. And they're encouraging us, the United States, to send armed forces over in the area. They use the planes for the "fly over". They've done other things there that... Really, they're trying to influence decisions that could be done internally, within the country. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So all these provinces are claiming a separate sovereignty and a separate government? Do they all have separate governments, separate taxing, separate everything? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well they do now. Slovenia is an independent country now. Croatia is an independent country now. Bosnia is an independent country now. Macedonia is an independent country. And the *new* Yugoslavia, also called the "rump Yugoslavia" -- which is comprised now of Serbian Montenegro -- is an independent country. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Mike, I think our viewers would like to know what do the people over there subsist on? They're so busy killing each other; do they manufacture anything to make money in the meantime? How do they get all this money to buy arms, food and whatever they need? Where does it come from? MIKE PAVLOVIC: That's a good question. It's very hard to answer. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Do they manufacture anything over there? MIKE PAVLOVIC: They don't manufacture nothing right now. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So on what do they subsist? JAMES NAGLE: Well what they subsist on... You have to understand: 90 percent of the Republic of Srpska is agriculture. So they're self- sustaining. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Tell our viewers what or how you organized by way of a peace mission, a goodwill mission, or what. How did you go about it? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, because we were trying to get them to form a democratic form of government, I asked Jim Nagle to accompany me, who in addition to being a trial lawyer is a constitutional law expert. And I asked Mike Ginsberg(sp?), who is a senior buyer with United Air Lines and is a businessman and familiar with free market principles, to join the delegation so we could try and convince President Karadzic that this is the type of government he should have. And ironically enough, when we sat down with him on Saturday, April 22nd to discuss these issues, the first words out of his mouth was that he wants to set up the very type of government that we were trying to convince him to set up: a limited government, with the private ownership of property, where everybody has equal rights. [Document shown on the screen.] What we're looking at now is the April 22nd letter that we convinced President Karadzic to fax to President Clinton, on April 22nd. The most important portion of this letter is the last paragraph, where Karadzic states: "What we are proposing, therefore, is a permanent peace treaty to end the war completely, and negotiations to resume at the same time under the auspices of the international community." President Karadzic was so impressed with what we had to tell him that he called a special meeting of his cabinet for Sunday, April 23rd. This was 8 o'clock in the morning, on *their* Easter Sunday. They took the time out to meet with us to discuss these documents. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: That is the Eastern Orthodox Easter. ANDREW SPIEGEL: Eastern Orthodox Easter. And right from that meeting, they went to Eastern Orthodox services, and we went to the front lines in Sarajevo. ANDREW SPIEGEL [continues]: What's happening now [June 1995] is, the U.N. wants to divide up Bosnia, to separate Bosnia. To give the Serbs a portion of the country, the Bosnians a portion of the country... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: On what legal basis? You're an expert in International Law. On what basis is the U.N... I mean, did they pass something in the General Assembly or the Security Council? ANDREW SPIEGEL: They've passed numerous resolutions in the Security Council. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In other words, dividing up somebody else's sovereignty. It would be like the United Nations saying, "You know something? Come to think of it, Indiana should merge with Illinois." I mean, what right would the United Nations have to tell these people what they should merge and un-merge? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, they're trying to broker a peace. And the fact of the matter now is that the Republic of Srpska controls 70 percent of the territory of Bosnia. They control 70 percent not because they invaded or they occupied it, but because the Serbs were farmers and owned most of the land. The Muslims worked in the cities. So they didn't *own* big tracts of land. The Zepa area: the news media has told us that that was "ethnically cleansed" -- that it was a *city* that was "ethnically cleansed" by the Serb army. 40,000 Muslims, the news media tell us... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And that's a lie? That's a lie they're telling us? ANDREW SPIEGEL: That's a lie: that 40,000 Muslims were forced out of the city of Zepa. We went to the front lines. We saw Zepa. And it's not a city, it's not even what they call a town. It's a tiny village. The Zepa *area*: there are 4 or 5 Muslim villages. The total Muslim population there, in those villages, today, is approximately 6 thousand. And they're still living there! SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Mike, from your standpoint, what has the American media and the American State Department done in failing the American people? (Some of us go even one step further and say they have *lied* to the American people.) But what is it that has happened? MIKE PAVLOVIC: The biggest problem that we have with media in America and American government: that they involve over there and they don't want to solve the problem. *I* believe myself that we can solve the problem without killing. Every day: killing and killing and killing. We can stop this. And because of *that* reason, America should negotiate. Sit around table with President Karadzic and we come to some solution. I know one thing: when we want to make some deal, we negotiate. And negotiate and negotiate. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Does *our* President Clinton want peace over there? Or let me put it as a cynical question: do they need a war there to divert from domestic problems? (Of which we can spend the whole hour talking about *that*: Whitewater and the whole list, all the way to the bottom.) MIKE PAVLOVIC: I don't think that they need that. ANDREW SPIEGEL: President Karadzic faxed this peace offer to President Clinton April 22nd. There was no response. *I* faxed it to President Clinton again on May 25th. There was no response. Jim talked to the man at the Bosnia desk of the State Department -- when was that? May 25th? JAMES NAGLE: This was the Friday before Memorial Day weekend. The news stories were just coming back that the Serbs in Bosnia were holding U.N. hostages. And I asked him if he was aware of the letter from President Karadzic proposing a permanent peace. And I don't want to say I was stonewalled, but the impression that *I* was left with was that this individual was more in touch with getting home for a picnic than he was with... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So in other words, the State Department and the White House did not treat you like "semi-diplomats", like a "Jimmy Carter type" that'd make peace over there. In other words, your peace mission was not encouraged? JAMES NAGLE: Obviously Jimmy Carter is a former president of the United States. We're just private citizens, going over there on our own time, on our own dime, without being paid, to try to offer a solution that hasn't been brought forth before to bring peace to the area. ROBERT CLEVELAND: Let me ask a question that puzzles me: you helped President Karadzic write this letter of April 22nd wherein he tells President Clinton he wants peace. Is that right? JAMES NAGLE: Right. ROBERT CLEVELAND: And it was sent on that same day to President Clinton. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Which was a bad day. I'll tell you why. But go ahead. ROBERT CLEVELAND: Well, aside from that. Now you must know that, in my opinion, there isn't anything that goes on in this country that the CIA or some intelligence organization in this country knows about. And if you were over there and you met with the president of this country and he wrote such a letter -- did they ever ask you when you came back about anything? Like a de-briefing or what happened over there? JAMES NAGLE: No, we weren't ever de-briefed. And obviously, we met with the president [of Srpska], we met with his cabinet, we met with the leaders of the military. We sat down. We ate with these people. We talked with them. And, if nothing else, I would at least expect *someone* from the State Department to at least sit down with us, to pick our brains to find out what these people were like. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What's your explanation why there was no de-briefing? Nobody, when you came back, asked you "what" or "when"? JAMES NAGLE: Not only did they not ask us... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Did you make some effort to contact these people? JAMES NAGLE: We made a substantial amount of effort. In fact... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What? You wrote or faxed the State Department and the White House? JAMES NAGLE: Yeah. In fact, we faxed our complete story of our delegation to Dave Merrick(sp?) of ABC News. (He's the Nightline reporter that covers Bosnia.) We faxed it to his home and to his office. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And what happened? JAMES NAGLE: No response. We faxed it to CNN Live. No response. We faxed it to WBBM: News Radio 78, Chicago. No response. We faxed it to the Chicago Tribune, the reporter that wrote one of the stories that was just in the paper about the Bosnian crisis. No response. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: The only one that wrote about it was the suburban paper, the Daily Herald. Right? JAMES NAGLE: The Daily Herald has covered it. The Palatine Countryside has covered it. The Glen Ellyn News has covered it. The Quincy Herald-Whig... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What explanation have you formed, from trying to deal with them: faxing them, talking with them? What is your opinion as to why they gave you the cold shoulder? JAMES NAGLE: My opinion is this: people at the State Department say Karadzic has lied so many times before that we can't trust him. And my response to that is, before we commit 25 thousand, 50 thousand eighteen to nineteen-year-old boys over there, I think we owe it to them and their families to at least go over there and address the letter where he's discussing peace. In terms of Karadzic "lying" to these people: I think that the U.S. and other countries are under the mistaken impression that Karadzic is a dictator. I think the U.S. government has dealt with him and expected that he has the final say in everything. But what they don't, maybe, not realize is that Karadzic has a parliament, he has a vice-president, and that he does not have the final say. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What about this theory that, at a time of recession in America, there may be armaments business and the Balkans is as good of a place to get rid of armaments as any: they're busy killing each other. From a cynical standpoint, they use up a lot of guns, bullets, bombs. And so American big business does not really *want* peace there. Is that too cynical? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well since there's an arms embargo currently [June 1995] in effect, technically there's no arms supplied by the United States. But just to go back to other people we've had contact with: I faxed to [U.N.] Secretary-General Boutros Ghali(sp?) the letter we sent to President Clinton -- the letter from President Karadzic -- and the memo we sent to Dave Merrick of ABC Nightline. That was done May 30th. No phone call, no fax, no even acknowledgement [in response]. On June 1st there was a news report that Clinton was going to introduce U.S. ground troops into Bosnia. At that point in time, at least the thought was to either re-deploy the U.S. positions or to help them evacuate. [Senator] Jesse Helms... Some of you may recall that Jesse Helms said, "No U.S. troops into Bosnia on my watch!" So I called up Jesse Helms' office, I talked to an assistant, a Steve Beacon(?), told *him* about the letter of April 22nd. He gave us the same type of response, that "President Karadzic is a liar," that "We've dealt with him before and we can't believe a word he says." I said, "Look. You may say that, but that's the person you're gonna have to deal with to resolve the situation." So I sent him a letter, and I pointed out to him that to *not* deal with President Karadzic and to start a war over there means that you're going to have to kill 1.9 million Serbs, living in the Republic of Srpska, who are going to *die* rather than surrender their homeland. And I don't think that the United States is prepared to do that. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Let me point this out: We're taping this show on June 6th, '95, and it won't go on the air for several weeks. By *that* time, Heaven knows what happens. I mean we may, like Viet Nam, have 100,000 of our troops there... In other words, somebody may create an incident that's good for the weapons business. I know that's a cynical viewpoint, but the weapons business must be considered. Somebody is doing a lot of business over there in the Balkans. I mean, somebody recognizes the Balkans is some kind of a boiling cauldron where, some way or another, some people like to kill other people and this is a good place to ship a lot of weapons. Is Germany shipping weapons there? I mean, who all is shipping weapons there? ROBERT CLEVELAND: One thing that really puzzles me in this: President Clinton ordered *our* planes to go in there and bomb certain parts of the country, killing Serbians. *Killing* them! Now what did they do in retaliation? They took hostages and didn't harm a one of them, followed (further along) by returning some of the hostages -- in fact, I think they let *all* of the peacekeeping force leave the country without being harmed. Why would they want to do that? SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Maybe some kind of bargaining chip. Nagle's got an explanation. Tell us. JAMES NAGLE: What people don't realize... We were there right before this happened. And on May 1st (that was 3 days, 4 days after we left), the Croatian army invaded the Serbian section of Croatia, killing three- to four-thousand civilians. And what may have been in response to that was to bomb the Serbs for allegedly violating a 12-mile zone of not having weapons. And obviously, the Serbs are seeing that, thinking to themselves, "The U.N. is taking sides, NATO is taking sides, with the Bosnians against us. Here we just had 3,000 civilians killed, why don't they do something to prevent that?" How does the news media cover that? The news media reports that the Serbs in Croina fired a couple rockets into Zagreb; ten people were killed. Ten civilians were killed. They tell us *nothing* about the 4,000 Serb civilians that were killed on *one* *day*! On May 1st! And the Croatian army took over and occupied 50 percent of the Republic of Croina. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So the news is slanted. Can you give any explanation *why* it is? ANDREW SPIEGEL: I can give you the explanation that the Serbs, that many people over there give. They believe that Arab oil money is behind the Bosnian Muslim government, and that the Vatican is behind the Croatian government. Now whether that's true or not, we don't know. ROBERT CLEVELAND: I get the impression that there's definitely been an agenda or game plan with the media in this country to wrongfully villify the Serbs. Is that correct? ANDREW SPIEGEL: That's correct. In fact, the analogy that I made was, the news media is treating this like it is a professional wrestling match: the Serbs are the "bad guys"; the Bosnians -- and the Croatians, of all people! -- are the "good guys". And their reporting of it is [similar] with a professional wrestling match. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: By the way, I made a cryptic remark before. The Serbian leader there sent a message on April 22nd. He didn't know it, but it was the *worst* possible time to send Clinton a message. Because it was on *that* *day* (which I believe was a Saturday) that Clinton and his wife were being questioned, in the White House, under oath, by the Whitewater independent prosecutor. So I don't think Clinton or the first lady were interested in peace in Serbia. They had this other problem. ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well they could have responded on May 26th. They could have responded on May 30th. They could have responded on June 1st. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What is the explanation that our president is changing his policy like, ten times a minute? Why is this? MIKE PAVLOVIC: I can say one thing. I'm not politician. My wife and I, we pray every night: to stop killings. That President Clinton should immediately stop killings, and negotiate around the table. He should call President Karadzic to sit around the table and negotiate and negotiate. What we pray every night. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: That's commendable. But you know, some Americans... I read the papers every day and I thought I'm well-informed. But on this Bosnia thing, it is so loaded with complications, I think most Americans do not understand this. The other thing is, some Americans raise the question: What *is* the so-called "American interest" in the area? It appears to be a long-smouldering, one-thousand year civil war. What is the American interest to get involved? What are we doing there? JAMES NAGLE: I don't think there *is* any American interest. Obviously the Europeans have an interest, if there's a war in their back yard. *Maybe* there's an American interest from the standpoint that the United States is fearful that this is a tinderbox and if it spreads to Macedonia it might go down into Turkey and into Greece; and at this point, we're looking at a much larger war. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What is our jurisdiction, what is our legality, of sticking *our* nose into their civil war? ANDREW SPIEGEL: If you want to look at it from a purely legalistic level, it was a violation of the United Nation's charter for Germany and the other European countries, and the United States, to interfere in the domestic affairs of Yugoslavia. It was a domestic affair in which certain constituent republics were illegally seceding from that country. It would be as if, when the South seceded from the United States -- what happened? SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Well some claim that the British fomented that. [CN -- See, for example, *The Empire of "The City"* by E.C. Knuth] SHERMAN SKOLNICK [continues]: By the way, some conspiracy theorists have published stories in smaller magazines that Scowcroft, Eagleburger, and Kissinger (all connected with Kissinger Associates; they're believed by some to be an evil cabal), that they suddenly toppled the economic system in Yugoslavia and that led to all this fighting. Do any of you believe that there's some sort of validity to that kind of conspiracy theory, whatever it is? In other words, that something touched off this situation? What about that, Mike? MIKE PAVLOVIC: It's very hard to answer that question. The death of Tito, maybe. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: But what about this theory that some American meddler, like Kissinger, that he meddled in some way with their banking system, toppled their banking system? Is that possible, that the toppling of their banking system and then their currency going to pot led to this situation where everybody over there wants to kill each other? ANDREW SPIEGEL: That's only speculation. I think it's much simpler than that. I think Germany, obviously when it reunified in 1991, wanted to have more influence in southern Europe. The easiest way to do this would be to have their own country down there -- which was Croatia. What happened, though, is people just didn't think (including the State Department in the United States; At that time, James Baker was Secretary of State.) as to how the Serbs would react -- the Serbs *living* in Croatia, the Serbs *living* in Bosnia -- once these countries effected to go through... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: The way you describe it, 50 years after the Second World War there's a sinister undertone. It means that the Nazis are still there. It's as if, "Hey. Croatia was with us in the Second World War, with the Ustashe. They're still with us." ANDREW SPIEGEL: Sherman, when Croatia became a so-called "independent country" it adopted the same names and the same national symbols that it used when it was a fascist republic years ago. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Really!? So on the screen here we should have shown what? The Nazi flag of 50 years ago? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well they definitely use the Iron Cross. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Well the Iron Cross... The Iron Guard was, in some published accounts, more brutal. There's one published account that -- it was terrible. I don't know. I suppose it's true: where they plucked out people's eyeballs and put 'em in big pails and carried 'em through the streets. What about that? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Before I get to that, there's one point that should be made here. There are credible accounts that President Ysabegovich(sp?), the current leader of Bosnia, was a member of the Hanta(sp?) Brigade in World War II (which was a fascist youth troop). SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So they haven't all died. They're still around. ANDREW SPIEGEL: He's the leader of Bosnia now! SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Really!? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Yeah. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So in other words... ANDREW SPIEGEL: One of the so-called "good guys". JAMES NAGLE: And I think the most ironic part of that story was that, this year [1995], with the 50th celebration of victory in Europe... And Ysabegovich was invited back to the ceremony. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Let me get this straight. So in their heart of hearts, in their inner sanctum, they might buy onto some Hitler image, some Iron Cross image, some Swastika? Is that credible? JAMES NAGLE: I don't know if that's credible. I think that this is the group that he belonged in. It was the same situation with Kurt Waldheim... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Well if they were 20 years old at that time, they're not all dead! They're still walking around. And in their heart of hearts and their inner sanctum, they *might* conceive this Swastika and the Iron Cross and the Ustashe. Some people believe that the Ustashe idea exists today. Other people, in dark tones, say, "Ustashe? There's a place in south Chicago where they still hang out!" Is that all believable, Mike? MIKE PAVLOVIC: They have an organization... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: They do!? MIKE PAVLOVIC: I repeat: there's good people, there's bad people -- everywhere. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: But in the Chicago area there's, some people believe, Ustashe; sort of remainders of the Hitler types? MIKE PAVLOVIC: In Croatia, too. They have special troops that they call "Ustashe". SHERMAN SKOLNICK: I tell you why I raise that question. Because in the '80s (some people have forgotten), in the vicinity of 98th and Commercial (which is south Chicago), there was bombings between Croatian and certain factions. And there was quite a bit of commotion at the time. And there was this undertone that this is the leftover from Ustashe. Most people have forgotten about it. So in other words, there's still sort of a Hitler theme, 50 years after the war? JAMES NAGLE: I think that, for the most part, people all over the world are the same: they want to raise their kids with a roof over their head, and be able to walk to school without being killed. That was the general tone of the people we met when we were over in the Republic of Srpska. And I think that, for the most part, they're no different from many Americans here. They want peace. They've lived there for thousands of years. I still think we're getting carried away when we start... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: But you came back here... You were on a peace mission, the three of you. And at your own time and expense you went over there, promoting "declaration of independence" and a constitution that might have brought peace there. Why do all these talk shows, that have got all this time -- why is it that none of them put you on to discuss this at length!? We're apparently the first ones that are putting you on to explain what has happened here! How do you explain that? ANDREW SPIEGEL: You're the number one talk show in Chicago, Sherman. [laughter] SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Oh, I don't know about that. They've got all these other commercial windbags on. ROBERT CLEVELAND: Let's get back to something you were talking about. Because on national television the last several days, there have been any number of senators and congressmen asking, "Why? What is our interest in this area?" SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Munitions! Armaments! ROBERT CLEVELAND: That hasn't been said. Is that unfair to say that? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well it's not in our interest so far, because the United States (at least on the record) has not been supplying arms to anyone in that conflict. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Would the three of you go back, on your own nickel, and try again? You're not so discouraged at this point that you wouldn't go a second time? ANDREW SPIEGEL: I'd be more than happy to go back. And again, keeping in mind that this is being taped on June 6th [1995], the word that we have from Pale is that President Karadzic is right now willing to release *all* the remaining U.N. soldiers, providing they sit down with him and discuss the peace treaty that he wants to negotiate and that they don't bomb him. Is that too much to ask? SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What is the slant in the media about these hostages? ANDREW SPIEGEL: The media seems more concerned about the taking of the U.N. soldiers, who are not being harmed by the Serbs, than they are by the four thousand Serb civilians who were massacred by the Croatian army! Why weren't NATO air strikes called on the Croatian positions? SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So what are you saying? You're saying there's a symbolism: they want the world to pay attention to what's happening. They says, "Hey! We're not gonna harm these people but we're grabbing these people to make a point that *our* viewpoint is not being *heard* for some reason!" So now everybody says, "Why did you grab these people? They've got the 'U.N. thing?'" Is that it? ANDREW SPIEGEL: And the news media cannot afford -- going back to my wrestling analogy -- they can't afford to portray the "bad guys" as the "good guys"; they have to *stay* the "bad guys" to keep this story... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So your view, as would-be peacemakers, is that there are bad guys and good guys in that area, right? ANDREW SPIEGEL: There are bad guys. There are good guys. And there are great guys. JAMES NAGLE: To answer the question that you keep asking: "*Why* won't the United States sit down and talk with Karadzic?" Their position at this point [June 1995] is, they don't recognize him. Before Nixon went to China, we didn't recognize China. Did that mean that there were not a billion Chinese living over there? SHERMAN SKOLNICK: This is not clear to a lot of Americans. *Who* does our State Department, our government, recognize? JAMES NAGLE: They have been dealing with, at this point, Milosovich, who is the leader of Yugoslavia, the former head of the Yugoslav Communist Party. And *he* is the one that the U.S. recognizes. And that's where our "declaration of independence" comes in... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Which one of them is accused of being a war criminal? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, ironically enough, Milosovich was accused as a war criminal *until* *they* *started* *negotiating* *with* *him*! They started negotiating with him and suddenly he's not a war criminal, it's just Karadzic and Miladich(sp?). SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So in other words, the one *you* went to negotiate with to try to make a peace understanding, constitution and all that, is not recognized. And he's not recognized, why? Because the State Department doesn't take him seriously? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, because for one thing, as far as I'm concerned, from an international law basis, they have not declared themselves as an independent country. If they are of the constituent republic of Yugoslavia, then the person to talk to is Milosovich. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Under the Logan Act, no American citizen, private citizen, is supposed to negotiate foreign policy. So you went over there, negotiating foreign policy. ANDREW SPIEGEL: Not only were we *not* negotiating foreign policy, but I think it's clear even to the casual observer of the situation that there *is* very little foreign policy of the United States. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: [laughs] There's no foreign policy, therefore they couldn't violate the Logan Act because there isn't any foreign policy one way or the other! Right? Is that fair? ANDREW SPIEGEL: *I* think so. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So where do you think the thing is going? I mean, what is the hopeful sign? We've seen all the bloodshed, plenty of it, on the television: bodies, buildings bombed. What is the hopeful sign? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, the hopeful sign is that the Republic of Srpska and Republic of Croina will adopt the "declaration of independence", adopt the "constitution", and create a democratic form of constitutional government where people can live freely regardless of race, religion or creed. And if they do that then, hopefully, it will bring peace to that troubled area of the world. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Well the point of the matter is that that area (you mentioned about democracy and all that): Have they ever *had* democracy there? ANDREW SPIEGEL: They have a democratic form of government in the Republic of Srpska now. And before we run out of time, let me tell you that we have tapes of the Croatian genocide in Bukovar(sp?) and the Croatian genocide perpetrated against the Serbs from 1941 to 1990. And the post office box has been flashed from time to time on the screen. If people are interested in obtaining those tapes, they should write there for further information. [Andrew B. Spiegel, PO Box 396, Wheaton, IL 60187] SHERMAN SKOLNICK: You're on an educational mission, all three of you. ANDREW SPIEGEL: Right. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And all three of you would go back, to try again, even though you've been rebuffed by the mainstream media... ANDREW SPIEGEL: I think that another point that should be made is that the Bosnians have hired a public relations firm to handle their side of the story. And they're just putting out all this information that is pro-Bosnian -- which is *one* of the reasons why the news media is so slanted. ROBERT CLEVELAND: Let me ask you this: When you went over there and were doing these things *pro bono*, so to speak, for [their] government and for [their] president, weren't you on their local TV and in their local paper, their media? Didn't they play that up over there? JAMES NAGLE: We were on their local TV; we were on their local radio -- both in the Republic of Srpska *and* in Yugoslavia. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So you were played up as heroes there. And you should have been played up as peacemakers in the United States. ANDREW SPIEGEL: Correct. When we left, I thought that we would get all kinds of news media coverage. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So if the three of you wanted to smuggle into the country and sell them some exotic weapons, you might have been better off; you would have been accepted by the United States if you were really three arms merchants. ANDREW SPIEGEL: The exotic piece of equipment that we tried to bring into the Republic of Srpska was a popcorn maker, which... SHERMAN SKOLNICK: That they wouldn't allow into the country!? ANDREW SPIEGEL: ...which the Hungarian border guards said was "a violation of U.N. sanctions." SHERMAN SKOLNICK: By what stretch of the imagination were they gonna turn it into a weapon? ANDREW SPIEGEL: Well, when we tried to convince them that this was humanitarian relief, and not something that was covered by U.N. sanctions, we were talking about Bill Clinton. And it turns out, we learned later, we should have been talking about "Ben Franklin" [$100 bills] and how many of them we'd have to give them to let us bring it through. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Let's ask our Serbian-American representative here, what do you think? Is there peace possible in the area? Or are they going to go on killing each other for another thousand years? MIKE PAVLOVIC: If we want to solve the problem, we can solve the problem. Twenty-four hours. I know. I am sure. But America should *see* *all* *sides*. They recognize only two sides and show on television two sides. On the Serbian side, they never show anything good -- only bad. Now, they must sit around the table and work together, and negotiate. And I *know* that we can solve the problem. We *stop* killing and negotiate. If we must negotiate for ten years, we should negotiate for ten years. And then, make economical war to be able... see how can economically go forward. And then we build again, together. SHERMAN SKOLNICK: I want to thank our three illustrious peacemakers. I hope you go back there and make peace. I appreciate you came on our program. And I thank everybody for watching "Broadsides". And call up your local newsfakers and ask them why these three have not been played up as heroes in their own country, the United States. ----------------------------------------------------------------- DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 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