-Caveat Lector- ----- Original Message ----- From: "RevCOAL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snip> A more worthwhile track of speculation/discussion is just WHY have the PTBs declared it a FEDERAL LAW probibiting anyone to even TOUCH any of the debris? We're not talking about proscribing TAKING the debris for souveniers or to sell on EBAY (a media story yesterday which I suspect was a plant -- as are all the 'we have many sick people reporting to area hospitals who got too close to the debis' stories -- to help vilify anyone actually touching/taking debris), we're talking that if someone finds a piece of debris in the middle of their driveway and shoves it to the side so that they can get their vehicle out of their garage, then they have broken a federal law. -->> A variety of opinions from the Politech list - I copied the most relevant part to the top of this post: From: CoolAl027 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 23:47:14 -0600 2/1/03 7:00:09 PM, Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >[Legal question: If a piece of "shuttle debris" falls on my land, does it >become my property? I assume not. --Declan] > Declan, Throughout the numerous times that they advised the public about not touching debris due to the toxicity, CNN occasionally tossed in a line along the lines that not only is it dangerous but illegal as well. >From what I found as well, it appears this happened with the Challenger a couple years ago ( http://www.space.com/news/challenger_wreckage_010128.html ) and from what they told Charles Starowesky, who tried selling it online, that it is illegal to own as well as sell the debris according to US Code Title 18 Sec. 641 ( http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/641.html) "Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or..." The reason being according to Space.com is that: "As NASA never relinquished ownership of the spacecraft, possession of Challenger debris translates to theft of government property. All parts recovered today are interred with the original wreckage in two abandoned missile silos at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station." So since they never severed ownership rights, it still is technically government property which is what the law applies to. Not only that, but like they said, since the Challenger investigation had been completed long before 2001, who knows what (if any) help this might have provided to investigators at the time. Probably the most sick and disturbing part is the intent of some individual (regardless of ignorance to the law) is that they would be profiting off of a national tragedy quite blatantly without any regard to life over money. Brian -- Complete Politech post: --- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:58:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew G. Saroff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: Space shuttle Columbia disintegrated during descent today For what it's worth, I am a mechanical engineer, who has worked with SAMS and artillery rockets, but this is my assesment of the incicent, feel free to forward to politech: What I've heard at this point, along with the video of the breakup, indicates a failure of the thermal protection system. There were changes in the pressure of the left main tires consistent with heating, and the drop in hydraulic pressure is consistent with the fluid boiling. -- Matthew G. Saroff Navicula hydraulica plena anguilarum est. --- From: "Suresh Ramasubramanian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: More on Space Shuttle Columbia disaster earlier today Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 07:10:13 +0530 Organization: -ENOENT On Sunday, February 02, 2003 3:43 AM [GMT+0530=IST], Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't know Dian, but Terry is a longtime and valued subscriber to > Politech. NASA still has Dian's bio online, which says she was a > propellant engineer: > http://ltp.arc.nasa.gov/women/bios/dh.html A previous crash (the Challenger) introduced me to one of my favorite poems - High Flight, by a world war II fighter pilot - John Gillespie Magee. It deserves a rerun now :) http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/276.html srs --- From: "Bradford A. Patrick, Esq." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Shuttle - legal. Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 17:45:47 -0800 RE: Falling shuttle debris A space shuttle, in whole or in part, is not exactly what you would call lost or abandoned property. Many people are looking for it. "Finder's keepers" doesn't work against Uncle Sam. -Brad Bradford A. Patrick, Esq. Preg O'Donnell & Gillett PLLC 1800 Ninth Ave., Suite 1500 Seattle, WA 98101-1340 (206) 287-1775 wk (206) 287-9113 fx [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:48:36 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Ronn! Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: More on Space Shuttle Columbia disaster earlier today >Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 14:51:39 -0500 >Subject: Re: FC: Space shuttle Columbia disintegrated during descent today >From: Space Rogue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >[snip] > >A search for "shuttle debris" so far turns up nothing. The only thing it should turn up is a Federal prosecution. -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. --- From: "Allen Hutchison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:19:33 -0800 Declan, I seem to remember a case a few years ago that implied that space shuttle debris was all government property. I couldn't find a real mention of the case except for this: Meanwhile, a person who tried to sell what he claimed to be a piece of the shuttle Challenger on the online auction site eBay was convicted in a federal court in Ohio last week. Charles Starowesky pled guilt to one charge of theft of government property and was sentenced to two years' probation. Which came from here: http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/ftp/info/newsletters/spaceviews/text/20000828.tx t Regards, Allen --- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 22:26:28 -0500 From: David Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 09:57:36PM -0500, David Shaw wrote: > On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 08:00:09PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > [Legal question: If a piece of "shuttle debris" falls on my land, does it > > become my property? I assume not. --Declan] > > Not a lawyer here, but the laws governing salvage say no. More or > less, the ownership of federal property is not lost through any of the > usual avenues, and it takes congress to explicitly transfer ownership. > > http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7h.htm Here's something even more on-point. http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/Reports/AC105_722E.pdf Page 8: Article VIII A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return. David -- David Shaw | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | WWW http://www.jabberwocky.com/ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------- + "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson --- From: "Chad W. DIdier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:39:05 -0500 Organization: C.D. Support Services Looks like Ebay is now filtering the search keyword "debris". Earlier, after I heard about debris showing up on Ebay I did a search and found 2 entries of which were no longer viewable. Now when I search "shuttle debris" I get the same results as searching "shuttle". Searching "debris" results in 0 listings. Likewise searching on "shuttle fuddy-duddy" results in 0 listings. They must be filtering "debris" searches. Otherwise it would result in 0 results rather than listing the same results as searching "shuttle" alone. Or so I assume. --- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 17:28:11 -0800 From: Tim Pozar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" The one auction I saw (item 2909705555) that claimed to be shuttle debris, was in fact a fuel injector for a car. Tim --- From: "a clever sheep" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 20:42:50 -0500 According to this article (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5925237%255E1702,00.html) in the Australian News.com (sourced from Agence-France-Presse), two US Attorneys for Texas are claiming that, "Those attempting to sell Columbia wreckage could face charges of theft of government property and interference in a federal investigation..." --- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:56:23 -0500 (EST) From: Rob Carlson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=575&ncid=738&e=6&u=/nm/2003 0202/wr_nm/shuttle_ebay_dc >From the article: Michael Shelby, U.S. Attorney for southern Texas, told reporters at Johnson Space Center in Houston that anyone who touched the shuttle debris could face a stiff penalty. "It's a federal offense that could bring to 10 years in prison. And I will prosecute," he said. -- Rob Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://vees.net/ --- Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:09:57 -0500 From: rj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3a) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: More on Space Shuttle Columbia disaster earlier today References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Declan, I'm fairly new to your list so take this for what its worth; just my speculation. Has anyone else noticed the continued warnings to stay away from any 'debris' because of possible toxic propellants? Why is FEMA so heavily involved? Plutonium reactor being tested for future Mars missions? Or other military agenda projects as have transpired on many previous orbiter missions? Just my paranoid speculation. rj Michigan --- From: "Laurence Berland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:01:48 -0600 > > [Legal question: If a piece of "shuttle debris" falls on my land, does it > become my property? I assume not. --Declan] > According to Nasa.gov, no, it does not, and you will be prosecuted if you try to claim it as your own. I have no idea how salvage laws work, but insofar as it's probably important to gather a lot of this stuff up to figure out what happened with a high degree of certainty, I'd say it's wrong to take it as your own even if it is legal... >From NASA.gov: NOTE TO PERSONS IN THE AREA: Anyone who believes they have found debris related to Columbia should call the Johnson Space Center Emergency Operations Center, (281)-483-3388. Be aware that hazardous chemicals may be present; do not disturb or move any debris. All debris is United States Government property and is critical to the investigation of the shuttle accident. Any and all debris from the accident is to be left alone and reported to Government authorities. Unauthorized persons found in possession of accident debris will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. end quote Laurence Berland Student, Northwestern University http://laurence.isp.northwestern.edu --- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:51:11 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: dano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: eBay sellers already hawking "shuttle debris" At 8:00 PM -0500 on 2/1/03, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[Legal question: If a piece of "shuttle debris" falls on my land, does it >become my property? I assume not. --Declan] The United States Navy still claims ownership of any warship or warplane they ever lost, for any reason. I seriously doubt that any holder of real Shuttle debris will be walking around on the street for very long, and certainly they cannot sell what they do not own. --- Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 20:47:13 -0800 From: Chris Ulbrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Ilan Ramon To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Also, while it may be just a coincidence, remember that Columbia carried >Israel's first astronaut and came as tensions in the Middle East are growing: Declan, not to mention that Ramon reportedly participated in the raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Ilanramon.html Best, -Chris Ulbrich --- From: CoolAl027 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 23:47:14 -0600 2/1/03 7:00:09 PM, Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >[Legal question: If a piece of "shuttle debris" falls on my land, does it >become my property? I assume not. --Declan] > Declan, Throughout the numerous times that they advised the public about not touching debris due to the toxicity, CNN occasionally tossed in a line along the lines that not only is it dangerous but illegal as well. >From what I found as well, it appears this happened with the Challenger a couple years ago ( http://www.space.com/news/challenger_wreckage_010128.html ) and from what they told Charles Starowesky, who tried selling it online, that it is illegal to own as well as sell the debris according to US Code Title 18 Sec. 641 ( http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/641.html) "Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or..." The reason being according to Space.com is that: "As NASA never relinquished ownership of the spacecraft, possession of Challenger debris translates to theft of government property. All parts recovered today are interred with the original wreckage in two abandoned missile silos at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station." So since they never severed ownership rights, it still is technically government property which is what the law applies to. Not only that, but like they said, since the Challenger investigation had been completed long before 2001, who knows what (if any) help this might have provided to investigators at the time. Probably the most sick and disturbing part is the intent of some individual (regardless of ignorance to the law) is that they would be profiting off of a national tragedy quite blatantly without any regard to life over money. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ Recent CNET News.com articles: http://news.search.com/search?q=declan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! 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