-Caveat Lector-
Gavin Phillips wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read
the
> hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out
to
> be a statist.
I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
situation in
Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
your
Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
> The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
> government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did
> such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC
> bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's
> gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes
> that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones
to
> have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and
> subjugation.
I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
Gavin;
When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother in
the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World Trade
Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows up.
They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against the
supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there were
no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this conversation.
The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period. Paranoid
foolishness?
Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above cases,
or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
> But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
> to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
> government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
corrupted
> from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough
> going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
> trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of
> government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
Government armed. That's because
you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
and apparently
very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
about that?
Gavin;
I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters. Stop making
assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.(except an air gun
when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of the
barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
It seems that you Nurev are starting to become a "true believer" in the
government's/mainstream media's propaganda swill about why Americans should
be disarmed. Nothing, nothing Billl Clinton does or attempts to do is for the
good of Americans. He marches to a different tune, his agenda is given to him
by the people who put him there and who have been covering his backside for
the last 7 years, and some 60 convenient deaths. The string pullers behind
the curtain pulling Clintons and many other politicians strings know they
have to get the guns in order to subjugate us even further. You cannot have a
dictatorship without first getting the guns. If you are naive enough to
believe that the whores in Washington are after the guns for our benefit you
reallly need to hit the books. You really think Clinton, Reno and the many
other politicopaths give a damn about us. As for your statement;
"and apparently very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with
weapons. How about that?" As you know, very many of our fellow citizens
change their opinion more often than their underwear. Their opinion changes
according to the latest manipulated media poll and what ever is politically
correct at the time. If the time ever came when the government passed a law
to ban all weapons and there were hundreds of Wacos going on, you might find
their opinion rapidly changing. Don't count on support from sheep. They go
wherever public opinion and emotion herds them.
>
> You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the
> citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw uprising in
> which a handful of Jews took on and held their own for quite some time
> against the Nazis' s after they had managed to obtain some firearms. Preach
> your statism in Beijing where I'm certain they will also secretly hold you
in
> contempt. Your views on inalienable human rights are particularly revealing;
Yes these things happened. But they are only a POSSIBILITY at this
point in this country. Why should I take your word for it that you can see the
future? What IS A FACT is that there are far too many gun related deaths NOW.
Gavin;
A possibility which is becoming a very realistic reality if you study the
dozens of illegal and pernicious activities of our government/depsots in the
last 20 years in particular. I cannot see the future. But I can see many
hundreds of thousands more gun related deaths if they try to ban guns
completely, and possibly civil war. There are many states which would refuse
to give up guns, with law enforcement lining up alongside the citizens.
Do you really think banning guns in this country would significantly reduce
gun related deaths given the massive black market that would take place of
your local gunsmiths? Criminals will still be able to obtain guns, and
probably easier than before because they always had to get them through the
black market anyway.
> Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody
> > > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't
> > > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about
> > > legalisms in the real world.
> > >
> > > >
> >Jim Norman says;
> > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the
> > same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the
> > other mass murders of the past (and of the future). They have no concept
> > of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others
> > and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get
> > in the way.
>
> Not only Hitler and Mao, Jim. Also George Bush and Bill and Hilary Clinton
> along with many Congressman and Senators. Conceptual only to a wanton
> socialist like yourself, Nurev.
I'm not a Socialist. But, I don't mind them either. I much prefer
socialists
to Libertarians.
Gavin;
I am not a Libertarian, but I much prefer them to Socialists.
> Rights only subscribed by the gun toting ATF
> murderer at your doorstep and fully endorsed by Nurev. How comforting. You
> talk about our basic human rights being a conceptual legal concept, what
> utter nonsense. Trying to make our basic human rights an issue in which we
> need lawyers to decide what we do and do not need. I'm certain most people
> can agree on what our basic rights are without the need for lawyers
ratifying
> it. You not only advocate only a government of armed thugs, you reduce our
> rights to the whim of lawyers decisions.
I never said anything about lawyers. You only have rights as long as
everyone you live with agrees to recognize those rights. There is no such
thing
as natural rights except in your fevered imagination. You are no
different from the the true believers who say that animals have rights.
Neither is
true in the real world.
Don't get me wrong, There is nothing wrong with establishing "
rights." It's just that you like to forget that your rights depend on all of
us.
Things are changing rapidly with relation to guns. I like how they are
changing.
You don't. If you are smart, you will make the best of it.
Joshua2
Gavin;
I do not forget that my rights depend upon others recognizing and wanting the
same rights. You want to give up the right for law abiding citizens to bear
arms because you will feel safer when only criminals and government appointed
agencies have guns. The whores in Washington and mainstream media schills
have done a great job on you.
nessie wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> >>I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I
> don't want to go down with it.
>
> If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you
> are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because
> some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first
> aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it.
I may be more used to it than you. I grew up and worked in the
toughest
neighborhoods in NYC. I was on the receiving end of a major war.
> Violence is not evil.
> Violence is not good. Violence just is.
Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence
iself defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a
future that may or may not happen.
Gavin;
That's right. Violene is failure. Unfortunately it will never be erradicated,
especially with the likes of the ATF, FBI and other government gestapo
harrassing and murdering Americans. Real self defence? What is your
definition of real self defence. No knock warrants, government agencies
trashing your house looking for drugs or guns which they cannot find because
they were never there in the first place. Government seizing your house, car,
other belongings because they found some marijuana.
According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban and
the government sending in the military on house to house searches in order to
get them, (because that is the only way they will get them)and the massive
social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far more
peacful then, right Nurev? There will be civil war the likes of which we have
never seen. Far fewer gun related deaths? I don't think so.
> To equate the knee to a rapists
> crotch with the sap in a mugger's hand is an infantile thought process.
> That's kidthink. Grow up. Violence is like weather. Sometimes it's sunny.
> Sometimes it rains. When it rains do we hide in the house? No, we carry an
> umbrella and go on about our life.
This is idiotic. Get yourself together.
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