-Caveat Lector-
< > Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence
>> iself defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a
>> future that may or may not happen.
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> That's right. Violene is failure. Unfortunately it will never be
erradicated,
>> especially with the likes of the ATF, FBI and other government gestapo
>> harrassing and murdering Americans. Real self defence? What is your
>> definition of real self defence. No knock warrants, government agencies
>> trashing your house looking for drugs or guns which they cannot find
because
>> they were never there in the first place. Government seizing your house,
car,
>> other belongings because they found some marijuana.
>
>Bad...bad government.
>
>> According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban
>
>Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens.
>It
>doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens
>when
>guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out.
>
Gavin;
How soon do you think?
>> and
>> the government sending in the military on house to house searches in
order to
>> get them, (because that is the only way they will get them)and the
massive
>> social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far
more
>> peacful then, right Nurev?
>
>No not then, after then.
>
Gavin;
After the carnage, and a country more divided than it has ever been. Oh, now
I get it. There I go with my predictions again. I just wonder how many others
on the list agree with my predictions as opposed to yours; of a kinder,
gentler America, disarmed.
>> There will be civil war the likes of which we have
>> never seen. Far fewer gun related deaths? I don't think so.
>
>There you go with your apocalyptic visions again. Most of you big
>talkers
>will give up your guns like pussycats. Some will fight it out. It's
>just
>natures way of improving the gene pool.
Gavin;
There you go bringing your Darwinian religion into it again. Isn't it great
to have the crutch and faith of Darwinian evolution to give you all the
answers. Makes things far less complicated.
>
>> snip>
>> Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant
>> that the police are useless.
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the
wherewithal
>> to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have
been
>> for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban?
>
>I don't know and neither do you. What we do know is that they had no
>trouble
>at all getting the guns they did.
Gavin;
Nice tautology. Of course we know that they got them. You say it's impossible
to predict our future after a gun ban. I say there are certain things we can
logically expect, and a large black market is one of them. You deny it
because it ruins your argument.
>snip>
>> > "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." --
>> > Malcolm X
>>
>> So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are
>> they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no.
>> they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians
>> in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a
>> Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world.
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the
>> gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other.
>> The vast majority of
>> them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but
that
>> doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban.
>>
>You don't KNOW that, and I want to find out for mysel
>> >
>> > >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence.
>> >
>> > And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery.
>>
>> And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves
>> get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put
>> your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to
the
>> 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body."
>> Prove Darwin right.
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a
slave.
>
>Good I'm glad you take that position. It proves that if your brain is
>defective
>you are not likely to pass it on to another generation. Love that
>Darwin.
>
Gavin;
Darwin really is a god to you isn't he? He's the answer to all your dreams,
anybody who gets killed by the government can be blamed on Darwinian
evolution and "survival of the fittest." You don't have to take
responsibility for anything as long as you can blame it all on the greatest
culler of all time, according to you, Darwinian evolution.
I take it you would live as a slave, and wait for better men than you to free
you. You think you're the smart one, the survivor, right?
>> Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others
fought
>> for it. Nurev, is everybody who owns a gun because they fear a despotic
>> government, the reason the founding fathers gave us the 2nd Ammendment in
the
>> first place, all "gun nuts."
>
>Sure.
>
>> The vast majority of the people in the gun
>> culture are law abiding citizens who see a depraved leader and an out of
>> control law enforecment doing what ever they want. You suck up the
>> government's propaganda so well, I thought you had more sense than that.
>
>I have good sense. I want easy access to guns eliminated.
>
>> Are the ATF and FBI etc. gun nuts too,
>
>You bet!
>
>> or are they okay because they work for
>> the government. The ATF and FBI have toally discraced themselves in the
last
>> few years with there constant lies, witness intimidation, murders,
cover-ups
>> and wholsale cowardice. If you are so proud of them and obviously seem to
>> think that they do a good job, why not join up, put your money where your
>> mouth is, get some blood on your hands. But watch your back jack, because
>> those boys will have you going through the door first every time.
>
>You watch too many movies man.
>
>> As for Darwin, I wouldn't put much credence in his hypothesis. He was the
man
>> who said he didn't see any problems with a bear turning into a whale,
given
>> enough time.(snicker)I suppose given enough time, hippo's will fly, and
then
>> we'll all be in the shit.
>
>Listen, you are a loony. Darwin is no longer a hypothesis. Only in
>your fantasy world of religion could you make an idiotic statement like
that. But
>you're not in church. This is open discussion and your presumptions of
>superstitious nonsense don't cut it.
>
Gavin;
Ouch. Hit a sore point there, didn't I. I attacked your religion. No sir, you
are totally wrong again, as usual. As I said before Darwinian evolution is a
long way from fact. Let me give you another fact. Darwin himself said that
his theory would be in great jeopardy if in the future the fossil record
didn't show many more transitional forms. Guess what? We have about the same
or less transitional now, over a hundred years later; as David Raup, a
renowned paleantologist says,
“We may actually have fewer examples of smooth transition than we had in
Darwin’s time because some of the old examples have turned out to be invalid
when
studied in more detail.”
You oh so desperately cling to a theory which has been hotly debated by
scientists on both sides of the issue for many decades, but you arrogantly
claim it to be immutable fact when you haven't even bothered researching the
mountain of evidence against it. Break out of your self imposed myopia, you
might actually learn something. But then you lose that "order" you so
desperately crave.
>>snip>
>> It's coming. Just a few more massacres. Bye bye Smith & Wesson.
>>
>> Joshua2
>>
>> Gavin;
>> Stop drooling over a few more massacres. As long as it's somebody else
who
>> gets murdered you and the worthless scum in Washington can keep on
pushing
>> their new gun laws. As long as it's somebody elses misery. Like I said
befoe
>> Nurev, join up, get your hands bloody, or do you prefer to sit on the
>> sidelines and let others do the killing, to stop the killing?!
>
>"Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword."
snip>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> He's right on the money. We all see you are eager with anticipation at
the
>> coming war between gun owners and the government. As I have pointed out
on
>> numerous occasions, passing a total gun ban will not stop the killing, it
>> will exacerbate it a 1000 fold. Whole States will refuse to abide by it.
95%+
>> politicians in America today are bought. On both sides of this issue. Do
you
>> really believe that all the mass shootings is the product of people
>> constantly going insane. How convenient for Bill Clinton that these
incidents
>> greatly incites the sheople to support more and more gun laws. What a
>> coincidence. Unfortunately I don't believe in recurring "coincidences"
which
>> keep benefiting Bill's agenda.
>
>Do you even read what you write?
Gavin;
Do you ever reach for a library card?
>
>>
>> Live with it or die, right?
>
>No. Live with it and live.
>snip>
>> Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns.
>> Period.
>>
>> Gavin;
>> Millions of armed citizens is a very large obstacle to overcome. Do you
>> really see the ATF and FBI putting their heads in the crosshairs when the
>> gloves come off and it's open season on government agencies? The military
>> would have to be called in. But the situation would be far more complex
than
>> the simple scenario you seem to see Nurev. It is a totally different
>> situation asking American soldiers to kill Americans for defending their
2nd
>> Ammendment rights, even if the politicians have managed to manufacture
enough
>> "mass shootings" in order to ban all guns. Many of our military personnel
>> despise Bill Clinton and see him as a totally self serving and worthless
sack
>> of shit that he is. Many would help people standing against his gun ban,
>> either join them or supply them with more sophisticated weaponry. Many
would
>> ask why? Why does Bill Clinton, who has displayed a total disregard for
the
>> rights of Americans and lacks any credibility whatsoever, want to ban
guns?
>> Bill Clinton, who has repeatedly refused to aknowledge the terrible
suffering
>> by tens of thousands of Gulf War Vets afflicted with Chemical and
biological
>> poisoning, or to do something useful about it. When they start asking
these
>> and other questions your simplistic version becomes nonsense. It would be
>> wholesale slaughter, either way you look at it. It would not be a simple
case
>> of the military running around and collecting the guns.
>
>You are an apocalyptic lunatic. And it won't be Clinton at all. It
>will probably
>be a Republican.
Gavin
When sound reasoning hurts your argument you turn to ad hominem attacks. It
will be a Republican? thank God (Darwin in your case) for that, we can get a
completely different party and put this country to rights once and for all,
and get the guns, right?
>
>> The Branch Davidians could have opened fire any time they wanted on the
ATF
>> who pulled up in noisy cattle trucks in a virtually treeless terrain.
They
>> didn't because they were not looking for trouble. The ATF and other
>> government scum were. They were looking to make a big splash in the
papers
>> just in time for the upcoming appropriations meeting who decide how much
>> money to allocate the ATF. Time for a dog and pony show. There could
well
>> have been other nefarious agendas at work also.
>>
>> How long do you think the many millions of Americans who get their
>> "news-bytes" from Channel 5 and 7 etc. are going to start changing their
>> opinions the instant thousands of Americans start killing each other.
>
>Thousands of Americans ARE killing each other.
Gavin;
And they'll be tens of thousands more. But that's just evolution in action,
right?
>snip>
>> This is wishful thinking. It bears no resemblance to reality. The US
>> Government is the most powerful entity in all of history.
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> Run by Americans, for Americans. Not for the oligarchy who want to
enslave
>> us.
>
>You are enslaved. With guns or without guns.
Gavin;
You haven't seen without guns yet.
>
>> I think enough of them will realize the ruse and the attempted gun
>> confiscation will backfire badly.
>
>We shall see. I'll bet you a buck that there would be very little
>resistance.
>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> As I said before. Gun violence will continue especially with the
flourishing
>> black market gun trade which will fill the vacuum.
>
>Black markets only exist because they are permitted to exist by the
>powers that be. Random searches for guns, and mandatory sentencing for
>long periods of time for possession will quickly dry up the market.
>Black
>or otherwise.
>snip>
>>
Gavin
The powers that be are not on every street corner and in every dwelling.
Random searches for guns and virtual martial law has not stopped the IRA in
Ireland from aquiring weapons and explosives. Where there is a demand there
is a supplier. Once again not forgetting the Armed forces, many of which
would sympathise with people fighting for their right to bear arms.
Gavin;
>>
>> That is right, of course the NRA have an agenda to perpetuate arms
>> manufacture. Of course there are prostituted politicians on both sides of
the
>> issue. What's new? Do you want to be enslaved by a meglomaniacal rapist
>> sociopath such as Bill Clinton or his replacement? I would only get
myself
>> killed defending myself or someone else form being killed or fighting for
>> liberty. There you go again with your specious evolution analogy's.
>
>Take your medicine dude.
>
>snip>
>> And where will your women and children be? Fort Knox?
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> What's your point? ATF/FBI burnt and shot those people to death.
>>
>> >
>> > > The only thing that could have saved them was an
>> > > outcry
>> > > from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the
>> > > rest of
>> > > your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process
>> > > that
>> > > we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T
COMPLY?
>> > >
>> > > Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns.
>> > > Period.
>> >
>> > If this society is too sick to have easy access to guns then one must
>> > ask the question: Why is it too sick now when 200 years ago the leaders
>> > of our country thought the opposite?
>>
>> POPULATION!!!!!!
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> Population is the smallest part of the problem.
>
>No, actually population is the biggest part of the problem. Most gun
>deaths
>happen in the densely populated areas. Population overload causes a
>breakdown
>of societal cohesion do to stress. Stress + density + guns = lots of
>shootings.
>Guns are the easiest part of the equation to deal with. That's why it
>will
>happen.
>
Gavin;
Wrong. The highest percentage of shootings are drug related.
>> A system which promotes the group above the individual. You must go
>> along to get along. Conforming is the name of the game.
>
>I hate to break this to you because I know you think you are the image
>of god
>& stuff, but you are a social anthropoid. That means in nature your
>survival
>depends on the group. You are not crazy enough to argue this point are
>you?
Gavin
Save your Darwinian humanism for somebody who buys that crap. Of course there
are constraints on me and everybody else to the extent that I do not harm
anybody else. My point is that "outcome based education and goals 2000 etc
and the way children are being taught today in America is to follow in
lockstep. There is no room for individualality, or opinions which are not
held by the rest of the group. Feeling good about yourself is more important
than actually achieving anything. Competition is frowned upon.Typical
communistic/fascist philosophy which is exactly what the oligarchy wants. A
populace who cannot think for themselves, who look to there peers to tell
them what to do, what to say and what to think. Ultimately everyone looks to
the government. It is of little surprise that America ranks as having one of
the worst education systems in the world when compared to Europe, Japan,
Australia.
>
>>
>> The massive rise in the cost of living in the last 20 years especially.
Most
>> family's today both parents work and still live from paycheque to
paycheque.
>> Many families one or more parents is working two jobs and or going back
to
>> school. School loans, credit card debt, work work work to try and keep
ahead
>> of the massive inflation created by the oligarchy who run the Fedeal
Reserve,
>> the most powerful private organization in America. These are some of the
>> reasons.
>>
>
>Yes these are some of the reasons people are stressed out. That's why
>they
>should not have guns. And if they took the money they would save by
>NOT buying
>a gun, they could invest it in Arnold Schwartzenegger's next violent
>movie,
>and earn a better living.
>
>What a country.
>
>--
>"And it came to pass that in the last days catatonics
>roamed the earth, and great monsters ruled the masses."
> ---------------- Joshua II ----------
>>
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