-Caveat Lector- ----Original Message Follows---- From: Bill Kingsbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:40 PM 9-13-1999 GMT, Sean wrote: > >this theory has one serious flaw [seems to me]: >what on earth would the ADL have to gain from this? According to Internet reports: Since they were Christian 'Jews' ('Davidians' are Jews) -- and therefore an especially HATED 'Christian Identity' church -- moving to Israel was obviously 100% forbidden by both the Israeli authorities, and the predictably- outraged Orthodox Jews who hold the balance of power. ...................................................................... Now THAT'S interesting AND it leads me to speculate on some other things. I have involved myself in several online discussion groups on various religions including Judaism and Christianity [disclaimer: more of interest than anything - I have also been on pagan lists]. One thing I continually got flamed about is STRESSING the fact that Jesus [Yeheshua?] was a DEVOUT Jew. As such he would accurately acuse modern Christianity as heresy, blasphemy, and methinks would not want any part in his own deification. According to the very religion that he devoted himself to, it is tantamount to hubris. As a devout Judaic WORSHIPPER, how could he spiritually lead ANYONE being so self-centered as to worship himself. If one argues that he did not worship himself [as many Christians do while not even realizing it] but worshipped his father, then it would be ancestor worship and would put him in the same boat as many pagans [we begin to see why ANY reasonable scrutiny of doctrines threatens ANY orthodoxy]. So an intelligent follower of Jesus, IMHO, could not ascribe to anything but some form of Judaism, potentially recognizing Jesus as a prophet [let's not get into the hiearchy of prophets, i.e. Jesus was MORE prophetic than Muhammad, etc.]. All of the afore mentioned would be a threat to orthodox Judaism, the dominant brands of Christianity that deny their Judaic/Pagan merger history [mediated by Emperor Constantine in the 4th century]. Not only that, but it would be a threat to much of the foundation of what we call HIStory [who's story?]. In fact, given that religious doctrines are perhaps the thing that is most fiercely hammered into the heads of the masses, can one doubt that some controling element deems such to be necessary to the maintenance of its own position? Such things would be a major threat to the cornerstone of society as we know it - which is a complex maze of taught habits that make it easy for the few to control the many. If the most fiercely hammered doctrines society has taught us are IGNORED by people, those people can be deemed capable of what to the controllers would be a threat and to the pioneering - merely open-minded. If such a group of people actually had the audacity to arm themselves with the knowledge of the entire community in which they were nestled and not, as a result, make the community feel in the least bit threatened, controllers would say that they are getting away with too much. A statement must be made to that community. As well, a statement must be made to ANY that would have the audacity to believe as they wish, assume the prerogative of being able to defend themselves, and, worst of all, actually get people to listen. Obviously, the feds [or someone above the feds?] felt that to be that un-orthodox AND to have the tolerance, and in some cases - admiration, of a whole typically conservative community that the Davidians had far too much charisma for their own good. All it takes to tell such would-be seekers to knock it off would be to burn a bunch of them alive. Can you say WITCH HUNT? Can you say BURN THEM AT THE STAKE? There are a whole slew of power brokering elements in the world that would feel the need to stamp out such naughtiness. (The Davidians' property was purchased in early 1959 by Benjamin Roden, the founder of the Branch Davidians. The Israeli property remained the property of the church when Koresh assumed leadership.) CAN and ADL proved their worth on Waco Holocaust day, but it 'appears' they soon dissolved the Cult Awareness Network, out of fear they would all be implicated in a court of law. (Scientology's efforts may? also be partly responsible.) There was also the PROMIS software biz -- allegedly THE target of the entire Waco Assault. Vince Foster was deeply involved in both the Waco Crisis and Systematics' PROMIS software. Systematics had Israeli subsidiaries -- Boston Systematics and Israeli Systematics... (From Conspiracy Nation 4.82: "The ramifications of the Systematics story could bring down the Clinton presidency. Just prior to Foster's death, Hillary reportedly told Foster that his spying for Israel was known; that he was about to be indicted on charges bordering on treason, making him another Jonathan Pollard.") And another alleged issue: Numerous stolen 50 caliber machine guns (and who knows what else!) -- stolen in 1959 from the US National Guard armory in Oxnard, California, and hidden at Waco (NOT stolen by the Davidians) -- that involved the Israeli Government, according to the following info : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "NewsHawk Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 Subj: WACO--We're Now Finding Out HOW... But WHY?? 8.26.99 WACO--We're Now Finding Out HOW The Government Murdered Over 90 ... But What About WHY?? This email was received today. We have no way at this moment of verifying the information within but OUR source is credible. We have received many messages claiming many different "reasons" for WHY the government slaughtered the Branch Davidians; however most such messages we receive are long on supposition and way short on anything resembling hard, factual evidence. For that reason this material below stands out from the crowd, and so we offer it at least as "food for thought" and perhaps even more than that. John Quinn/NewsHawk Inc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Hi John, This was sent to me with cautionary words advising me to use extreme caution to protect my source and IF I sent it out to protect myself. Maybe you have already gotten a copy by now. IF you use it, please protect my privacy though. Blessings! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: XXXXXXXXX XXXXXX XXX To: XXXXXXXXXXXXX Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 Subject: Fwd: Waco While Sen. Lloyd Bentsen was Treasury Secretary he secretly ordered the BATF to destroy Waco to conceal the fact that stolen National Guard weapons were concealed there and if exposed would reveal Menachem Begin's part in the burglaries and trace them back to the Israeli Government. It would also have exposed William P. Clark's involvement in the burglaries along with Oxnard Superior Court Judge Jerome Berenson and his partner, U.S. Commissioner Ben Nordman and U.S. Appeal Court Judges Harry Pregerson and Stephen R. Reinhardt. ---------------------------------------------- The above statement comes from a well known web site. The current stories on Waco focus on "HOW" not "WHY" it all happened. The evidence being leaked is yet another scam to cover the "WHY". Time will prove that little will be found to incriminate anyone and a minor uproar will soon lead to the "final" conclusion while still protecting those involved. The National Guard weapons mentioned came from the Oxnard, California armory, stolen in 1959. Among the weapons were numerous 50 caliber machine guns. Over the years they have been mainly under the control of William P. Clark. David Koresh made a trip for a meeting in Hollywood just a short time before the Waco siege began. Proof of this meeting can be found in the many books and some videos on the Koresh story. The meeting was with the California Mafia, headquartered in Oxnard. He and other high-up Davidians were paid to hide these 50 cal. weapons at the compound. When he was ordered to move the weapons he refused and tried to use the weapons for ransom. Fearing the weapons would somehow be found if Koresh persisted in his normal flamboyant ways, the order was given to get them back or destroy the evidence in any manner necessary. This is why the ATF went after the compound and never tried to arrest Koresh in town when he was alone. After Waco, the official ATF Press Release listed all the weapons, parts and ammo found in the remains. Strangely, no 50 caliber weapons were mentioned. Yet, in testimony before Congress, the ATF and FBI stated that the Davidians had and used 50 caliber weapons. None were produced as evidence, only 50 caliber projectiles or bullets were held up as evidence. The actual 50 caliber weapons found at the Waco compound were the Oxnard 50's. The Texas Rangers and the FBI knew the origin of these weapons and have concealed their existence to this day. The serial numbers will prove where they came from. To much to believe ? Ask yourself this. [1] Why was such massive force used against a church for the suspected violation of child abuse ?? Have you forgotten that the first reason given was child abuse, dutifully played out by the Texas media just before the initial raid. [2] How did the Federal ATF become involved in a State of Texas law involving child abuse ?? There is a lot of digging for the truth. If anyone comes to close to the "WHY" for Waco you will see an attempt to divert attention to the "HOW", just what is happening today. The 50's are the key to it all. Expose the truth here and you have all the players, including members of Congress. Check the records to see the information on the 1959 Oxnard Armory stolen weapons. Check the records to see the information on Koresh's trip to Hollywood. Check the records to see the BATF Press Release to the media on the evidence found in the compound. Check the records to see the statements made before congress on the use of 50 cal. weapons at Waco. Check the records to see only 50 cal. bullets were shown to congress. Check the records to see that the NRA offered to pay for x-rays of the so called "illegal" weapons and it was refused. ~~~~~~~ From: "NewsHawk Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 Subj: More on WHY re: WACO 8.26.99 More on WHY re: WACO JANET RENO AND LOUIS FREEH ARE A DISGRACE TO THE USA. WE THE PEOPLE MUST DEMAND THEIR IMMEDIATE RESIGNATION AND INDICTMENT/CONVICTION FOR HIGH CRIMES INVOLVING THE SEIGE AT WACO. (PREMEDITATED MURDER) Recieved from a NewsHawk reader-- We may never get the WHY nailed down, but we do know this- the front door and the roof will have bullet holes going from the outside in. The government fired first. The survivors were gunned down as they tried to escape the flames. The CS gas used was illegal. 17 little children are dead. The NRA DID offer to x-ray the weapons. The wreckage of the building was BURIED.... We can expect nothing but more of the same as long as the murdering bastards who did this continue to draw a public paycheck and enjoy freedom and privilege.... = = = = = = = = = = = = Subject: Re: WACO--We're Now Finding Out HOW... But WHY?? Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:36:01 -0700 From: "CCW" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John Quinn/NewsHawk: You need to contact Gareth Wean, author of "There's A Fish In The Courthouse" - he tells ALL concerning William P. Clark, the Oxnard National Guard Armory break-ins and the theft of the .50 cal machine guns which Koresh refused to handover and thus set in motion the destruction of the Branch Davidian Church. Gareth joined the Los Angeles Police Dept. in 1946 and graduated from the academy. He later worked as a Detective Sgt. for the Ventura City Police Dept. and as an Investigator for the Los Angeles District Attorney's Bureau of Investigation, the Criminal Intelligence Unit. In September 1966 he became the Chief Investigator for the Ventura County Public Defender's Office until 1970. His book, "THERE'S A FISH IN THE COURTHOUSE" exposes ALL of the judicial corruption in the Federal and State Courts in the Federal Ninth District. Check out his Website at http://www.gareth.com/ and be sure to read the several linked items. JANET RENO AND LOUIS FREEH ARE A DISGRACE TO THE USA. WE THE PEOPLE MUST DEMAND THEIR IMMEDIATE RESIGNATION AND INDICTMENT/CONVICTION FOR HIGH CRIMES INVOLVING THE SEIGE AT WACO. (PREMEDITATED MURDER) /s/ John R. Prukop "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance does whatever is dictated to it." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man ("Conclusion") "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." --Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (2 Cranch) 137 (1803) CCW Coalition: Citizens For A Constitutional Washington John R. Prukop, Executive Director 11910-C Meridian Ave. E., #142 Puyallup, Washington 98373 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 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These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om