-Caveat Lector- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"> </A> -Cui Bono?- Reavis, Once again your garbage spews forth. First you say Pace is a fraud then you give him copy for his message. Only the weak in mind are taken by your linguistic babblegarf. Why is Pace and Government Agent Clive Doyle working hand in hand? If you want to write about something why don't you tell the people of America the truth about David's teachings i.e. Davidians believe that Koresh is coming from Iran to destroy this filthy government and those that support it? He will lay this place to waist! That Government church that is being built was founded on the Sabbath. Now I know that doesn't mean anything to you since you don't believe in God. At least that is what you told me in June last year at "New Jerusalem" (Mt.Carmel). Regardless of your honesty, or the lack there of, the fact remains the foundation to the Abomination you are calling a church was laid on September 18,1999 By Clive Doyle. I have him on video admitting it just after he assaulted me. He is working for Bill Clinton....your Boss. I will be exposing some of the other tripe that you have written, i.e. You work to setup Fagan! Andrew -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: undisclosed-recipients:; <undisclosed-recipients:;> Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 2:40 AM Subject: Express-News/Dick Reavis/Koresh fulfilled prophecy of doom? I chose to hold this story back a day, because I felt it would disrespect the survivors and the memories of those who died on the 28th. This is an interview with Charles Pace, who "lives" off to the side of Mt. Carmel. Like his fellow "squatter" Amos Roden (Ben Roden's widow), they reject the Branch Davidian testimony of what happened during the siege, and the consequent fire. They are frequently seen preaching to people their own version of what happened, to anyone that will listen. Please keep in mind, that these people have also taken the position that it's perfectly fine to collect "tourist money" from anyone who wanders too close to where they are staying. They offer their services at what amounts to a few misguided "tour guides", re-creating their own brand of truth as they go. Off of my web site alone, I have been mailed from a dozen people who have visited Mt. Carmel, and each one reported experiencing the exact same thing. Their actions exploit and shatter the memories of those killed, and I have to comment that I find all of it very offensive. There are others that live on the fringe of Mt. Carmel too... some of them have attempted to disrupt several memorial services and have been arrested. Someone has even went so far, as to threaten the new church with fire and demolition. ***Side note*** I received this in my e-mail, AS I was writing this letter to you just now! I cannot believe the outright coincidence of this, and the COMPLETE verification of what I just said above. As they say, I rest my case. Subj: Waco Protest Date: 02/28/2000 11:39:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time Today (Feb 28th) I go to the church of David Koresh to protest the building of a church that was founded on the Sabbath, September 18,1999 by Clive Doyle. It is "The Abomination That Maketh Desolate". There is a party going on there today. The party is being thrown by the Bill Clinton Murderers of the Children of Waco. They will most likely have me arrested,as they did on Nov. 28,1999.) It's sad to know that even after being abused by the government and losing their families... the Davidians determination to rebuild and survive once again, is being attacked by people in their own back yard. I can only pray this church and these courageous people, will be around for many years to come. And that they are free to finally live in relative peace and harmony, away from the "lunatic fringe". ~Sharlene~ <A HREF="http://mysa.com/pantheon/homebase/hbm%26s/2801a-waco-prophetic_end.sht ml ">http://mysa.com/pantheon/homebase/hbm%26s/2801a-waco-prophetic_end.shtml</ A> Express-News Metro & State News Davidian claims Koresh fulfilled prophecy of doom (Last updated Sunday, Feb 27, 2000) By Dick J. Reavis Express-News Staff Writer If the sworn statement they are now giving attorneys and authorities is true, the fire that destroyed Waco's Mount Carmel in 1993 took David Koresh's followers unaware. But their fate could not have come as a surprise to Koresh, a longtime rival is saying, because he warned the young Branch Davidian leader of what lay in store. Charles Pace, who today lives in a mobile home only yards from where Koresh died, is out to convert the dead preacher's following — and anyone else who will lend an ear — by repeating predictions that he made as early as 1984. Pace claims that he, former Davidian leaders and even the Bible prophesied what happened during the 51-day federal standoff in 1993, down to the fatal blaze. Koresh's rise and fiery fall, Pace claims, "were all part of a divine plan to show the church its sin." Branch Davidians in Waco have largely rejected Pace's message, and some followers dispute his account of the 1984 events. Biblical and prophetic references are a matter of interpretation, perhaps — but Pace's warnings to Koresh are a matter of record. If Koresh accepted Pace's characterization of him, as Pace and his followers claim, then it is likely the Waco messiah believed his own death — and maybe that of his followers — had long ago been foreordained. Pace's view of Koresh, though clothed in biblical allusion and language, is parallel to that taken by spokesmen for the FBI. "We played right into the hands of David Koresh," Byron Sage, chief FBI negotiator during the siege, declared in a television interview last month. "He had an apocalyptic end in mind, and he used us to fulfill his own prophecy." Regardless of their predictive value and biblical basis — or lack of such — Pace's account of his supposed warnings to Koresh provides a window into the mind of the Branch Davidians, a group that still lives in a world of scripture, prophecy and even dream interpretation — a world where everything is an act of God and part of a divine plan. If Koresh was aggressive, sinful, heedless and even bloodthirsty, Pace said, it may well be because he knew what was in the cards — and lacked the inner strength to turn away. 'Holy Ghost Message' Pace, now 50, like most Branch Davidians was a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in his youth. In 1973 he visited Mount Carmel and became a disciple of its leader, Ben Roden, who had been dismissed from an Adventist congregation in Odessa. For the next 12 years, Pace was in and out of Mount Carmel, sometimes its resident, sometimes its missionary. Roden founded the Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association, an outgrowth of the Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association, which was itself a splinter of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The Davidian sect had settled in Waco in 1934 under the leadership of a Bulgarian immigrant and former Adventist, V.T. Houteff, whose followers split into Davidian and Branch Davidian groups after his death in 1955. By the time Vernon Howell, who would change his name to David Koresh, came to Mount Carmel in 1981, Ben Roden was dead and had been succeeded by his wife, Lois, whose teachings Branch Davidians still extol. But in the early 1980s Mount Carmel was going through a period of turmoil. Lois Roden's son, George, then in his late 40s, apparently had doubts about his mother's claims to inspiration and openly said that when she died, he should inherit the family's prophetic mantle. George was a hulking man, more than 6 feet tall, who often threatened other members of the flock — and often carried guns. Not long after Koresh began his rise in the sect, Pace, then living in Canada, had a dream. "I saw a man coming out of Lois Roden's bedroom, and he looked to both sides, to see if anybody was watching. Then he went back inside," he said. The dream's meaning was a mystery to him, Pace said, until the spring of 1984, when he visited Mount Carmel for Passover observances. "Vernon had cut his hair. He didn't have a beard anymore, and he had changed his glasses," Pace said. "I recognized him as the man in my dream." By this time even regulars at Mount Carmel, including George Roden, suspected that despite the age difference, Howell, then 24, had seduced the matronly Lois, then 67. The camp was alive with rumors, rivalries and jealousies. Pace addressed the church for more than three hours, delivering what he dubbed "The Holy Ghost Message." His sermon was many-sided and obscure, having to do with such arcane matters as the number of figures in the godhead, but it also spoke, in a prophetic and theological way, to Mount Carmel's factional turmoil. The Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association, Pace said, was prophetically destined to enter a period of disrepute, when it would be lead by "an apostate prince" who would in its name commit "every sin of the church since the Crucifixion." The Branch's "Laodicean," or corrupted condition, would bring out a "persecution," followed by a "purification" that would be wrought through the "cleansing" of its apostate elements. Turning toward his rival, Pace said that from what he had seen, Howell was destined to become the Branch's apostate prince. He and at least one other Branch Davidian who was present, Tom Caldwell, now of California, said that following the address, Howell rose, put his arms around Pace and said, "It's true, it's all true." "Vernon accepted the message," Pace claims. "He knew who he was, and he knew what prophetic role he had to play." In support of this claim, Pace circulates a letter that Howell, the future Koresh, afterward wrote to the Davidians. "The young men will abuse My kindness," the letter said. "They will take My life, but I will arise and take theirs forever more." Howell penned the letter from an encampment in Palestine where he and his followers in 1985 had taken refuge from the gun-toting George Roden. Pace had by then abandoned Mount Carmel, and soon, Lois Roden died. George Roden found himself in charge of the property and declared himself head of the sect, a move both Pace and Howell challenged, at first, only from a distance. 11th-hour warning In 1987, Koresh hit upon a plan to have Roden evicted. While attempting to carry it out, he and a band of followers exchanged shots with Roden. No one was killed or ever convicted in the shootout and, about a year later, a Waco judge ordered Roden off of the property. Koresh's faction took possession. With George Roden out of the way, Pace and Koresh became contenders for the leadership in the Branch, along with Teresa Moore, who claimed the mantle of Lois Roden. But Koresh was at Mount Carmel; Pace was in Alabama; and Moore was in New York. Only a handful of Branch members took a stand against Koresh. Pace fell back, confined to the edges of the movement, conducting his ministry to fellow members by letter and telephone. On Feb. 28, 1993, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms raided Mount Carmel. When it did, Pace believed the predictions he had made in his 1984 Passover address were being confirmed. He called the FBI, offering to speak to Koresh's flock. But the FBI declined his help, so Pace wrote to Koresh, hoping to get through. His 11th-hour admonition to his old rival contained lines that, hauntingly, would come true. "If you refuse the fire of purification — the Holy Ghost Message," Pace's missive said, "you will receive the consuming fire of judgment that will destroy you and your followers root and branch. ... The Lord will have to purify Mount Carmel by fire." His letter never was delivered. Mail service to Mount Carmel had been suspended, and Koresh's attorney, Dick DeGuerin, to whom Pace sent the message, chose not to show it to his client. "I was getting quite a lot of mail and faxes and such at the time, and quite a lot of it was what I'd call 'nut' mail," DeGuerin explained. Koresh following After Koresh and most of his following died on April 19, 1993, the road to leadership was again open to Pace. He could have touted his "Holy Ghost Message" to the some 5,000 followers of Houteff, the Davidian leader from whose movement the Branch was born. Houteff's works are still in print, several Web pages keep his interpretations alive, and there are at least three Davidian enclaves that call their headquarters "Mount Carmel Center." One is in New York, one in North Carolina, and one — not associated with the Koresh movement — in Waco. Instead of pursuing the Houteff followers, Pace in 1998 moved back to Koresh's Mount Carmel to be near the some two dozen believers who live in the area or visit at Passover time. But his missionary work has produced no converts, at Mount Carmel or elsewhere. When he tries to take his message to the former co-religionists, they rebuff his teachings. Teresa Moore, who still considers herself the rightful successor to Lois Roden, now disputes Pace's 1984 claims from Pennsylvania. "Vernon Howell," she said, "was at the other end of the camp and wasn't there when Pace spoke. Charles is a liar. As long as I've known him, he's been looking for honor, glory and what have you." Koresh follower Clive Doyle is equally skeptical. "Now that David is gone, he's trying to pick up the pieces of the old church," Doyle observed. "I don't accept his doctrines." Doyle also lives at Mount Carmel, some 300 yards from Pace. "As far as him as a person," he added. "I kind of like Charlie. We cooperate on secular things, like plumbing and hauling rocks." Even from the grave, Koresh dominates Pace's life. Despite his death and defamation, he still has a following that outnumbers that of his old rival, who predicted the demise of the Sinful Messiah and his church. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] <A HREF="http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html">Please take a moment to picture this...</A> <A HREF="http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html">http://www.wizardso faz.com/waco/picturethis.html</A> "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." 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