-Caveat Lector- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">
</A> -Cui Bono?-
Some of what you say is indeed correct. There are players and motivations and dogmas
that have to be supported or shattered depending on where you stand on any issue.
This guy may never have even existed as a person, which is also a possibility for
Jesus himself (IMO, there is scant non-Biblical historical evidence for his being a
real person, and absolutely NONE that he was in any way supernatural or a UNIQUE Son
of God, these things being matters of FAITH and all). Still having someone close in
time to Jesus, and saying some of the same things in similar terminology, AND having
an association with the Essenes is new to me. Perhaps your level of scholarship
supercedes mine, which is a distinct possibility. It depends on ones motivation and
beliefs whether one reacts one way or another to such scholarship. I am of the
opinion that no matter what is said, if it illuminates something that has been in
darkness it is a good thing. Those who are strong in faith will not be troubled by
this, those who have none will probably think it further proves their point, and those
on the line will have more to think about.
On Tue, 04 April 2000, David Sutherland wrote:
>
> BUUUUUUURP!!!
>
> This entire piece is a pile of contradictory twaddle!
>
> Perhaps old darkness - rather than any "new light".
>
> Jesus, from all accounts, was not an "extremist" - rather He "ate and drank" with
>"sinners" and Pharisee's alike.
>
> It was the religionist "scholars" and "rabbis" of the day that were that were the
>"extremists"!
>
> The notion of the "messiahs" suffering and death was prophesied centuries before the
>birth of Christ - it was NOT a "new" paradigm that merely popped up in Jesus day.
>
> The attempt to "link" Jesus with some Esoteric, or Know-Nothing-Gnostic sect,
>Essenes, and et al, or Eastern foolosophy has been engaged in for centuries by
>self-proclaimed gurus, swamis, priests, and cranks masquerading as "scholars".
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tenebroust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [CTRL] The Messiah BEFORE Jesus
>
>
> > -Caveat Lector- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">
> > </A> -Cui Bono?-
> >
> > I really like it when things like this come to light, because it causes people to
>question what they have been taught for years and to question the strength of their
>own beliefs. There are many possible interpretations that could come from this work,
>only one of which was explored by the scholar who wrote the book referenced in the
>e-mail below. It certainly sheds new light on those times, and that place in
>history. Where light is shed darkness and ignorance flees, this is a good thing. No?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 04 April 2000, William Shannon wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > -Caveat Lector- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">
> > > </A> -Cui Bono?-
> > >
> > > WIRE:04/01/2000 21:06:00 ET
> > > FEATURE-Was unknown messiah role model for Jesus?
> > >
> > > JERUSALEM, April 2 (Reuters) - An ancient Jewish messiah named Menachem may
> > > have been a hitherto unknown role model for Jesus Christ, according to an
> > > Israeli researcher.
> > > Israel Knohl, head of the Bible Department at Jerusalem's Hebrew University,
> > > explains his theory in his book, "The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering
> > > Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls."
> > >
> > > The book stems from three years of research based on the "Thanksgiving
> > > scroll," which Knohl says was written by Menachem, leader of a first century
> > > extremist Jewish sect.
> > >
> > > It was one of seven scrolls and some 800 manuscripts found hidden in jars in
> > > caves close to the Dead Sea in the 1940s and 1950s.
> > >
> > > The scroll is damaged and Knohl believes that Menachem's ideas were so
> > > explosive that "someone, at some time" tried to ruin it.
> > >
> > > "I see here a mystery. If they wanted to preserve (the scroll) by putting it
> > > in the jar, why should someone squeeze it, disfigure it?" Knohl asked a
> > > recent theological conference.
> > >
> > > He said a closer look at Menachem could change the way Jesus has been seen
> > > for centuries.
> > >
> > > "Menachem saw himself as a suffering servant of God but also a divine
> > > messiah and son of man, concepts which scholars say did not coexist before
> > > Jesus," he said.
> > >
> > > "I say Jesus knew about Menachem. When Jesus came to the game there was
> > > already a theology that the messiah should suffer, be killed and come to
> > > life again."
> > >
> > > The theory strikes a blow at traditional scholarship that has cast Jesus as
> > > a preacher who was moulded into a messianic figure by followers only after
> > > his death.
> > >
> > > JESUS EMBODIED AN OLDER CONCEPT
> > >
> > > "The main group of New Testament scholars tend to say there was no concept
> > > of a suffering messiah in Judaism -- only a triumphant, glorious figure. But
> > > the idea was there before with Menachem," Knohl said.
> > >
> > > Many scholars believe the scrolls were written by the Essenes, an austere
> > > first century Jewish sect.
> > >
> > > Researchers believe the Essenes stored their sacred works, including copies
> > > of the Hebrew bible, Jewish writings, codes and literature, in clay jars to
> > > hide them from marauding Romans.
> > >
> > > By patching together "pieces from pieces" from two hymns in the Thanksgiving
> > > scroll and comparing them with other manuscripts of the same hymn found at
> > > the site, Knohl said he had unearthed the unprecedented claims of a
> > > suffering messiah.
> > >
> > > "I was shocked when I saw it," he said.
> > >
> > > As evidence, he points to hymns in the scroll in which the author not only
> > > equates himself to the Suffering Servant in the Book of Isaiah but also
> > > depicts himself sitting majestically like God in the presence of angels.
> > >
> > > The links between Jesus and Menachem are also found in Jewish texts and in
> > > the writings of the first century historian Josephus Flavius, which mention
> > > a messiah called Menachem.
> > >
> > > Several legends speak of a messiah of the same name who was born in
> > > Bethlehem, Knohl said.
> > >
> > > He also thinks that John the Baptist, believed by many scholars to be an
> > > Essene, exposed Jesus to Menachem's ideas.
> > >
> > > Menachem and Jesus were not only bound by ideology, but their lives and
> > > deaths also bore a number of similarities, Knohl said.
> > >
> > > Both were excommunicated by the rabbis of the day for their maverick views.
> > > Both were killed by the Romans and believed by their followers to have risen
> > > after their deaths.
> > >
> > > SCEPTICISM REMAINS
> > >
> > > Not everyone is convinced about Knohl's theory, however.
> > >
> > > Peter Pettit of Muhlenberg College in Pennsylvania likened Knohl to "an
> > > experienced guide," who "entices us all to dance on the thread of his
> > > argument."
> > >
> > > But Pettit told the Jerusalem theology conference that he was cautious about
> > > what he called the fragmentary nature of the texts and "narrowness of the
> > > sources."
> > >
> > > Knohl maintains that his theory provides a fuller picture of Jesus's
> > > identity than has previously existed.
> > >
> > > "Many Christians had given up the idea of knowing about the historical
> > > Jesus...but now, 50 years after the scroll was found, for the first time we
> > > can understand the background to Jesus's self-awareness," Knohl said.
> > >
> > > Awareness of his imminent suffering weighed heavily on Jesus, the researcher
> > > added.
> > >
> > > "In the Garden of Gethsemane he is described in gospels as entering into
> > > very deep depression. And what does he say? 'God, Father, if you can, take
> > > this terrible mission from me, otherwise I will accept it,"' Knohl said.
> > >
> > > "So in my view, this is a wonderful example of his inner struggle; he knew
> > > he would be put to death, but in another part of his soul he is young man
> > > and has a natural desire for life. He knew he was going to suffer. He
> > > already knew the path."
> > >
> > > Pettit says guessing Jesus's mindset, 2,000 years later, is not an easy
> > > task.
> > >
> > > "When we get into Jesus's psychology we are pretty high up on a pretty thin
> > > thread," he said.
> > >
> > > But Knohl is resolute.
> > >
> > > "Jesus was not a pure imitation of this man. He had many new ideas. But in
> > > my view now we have proof that Jesus really saw himself as a messianic
> > > leader, and that came from Menachem," he said.
> > >
> > > <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A>
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> > screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soap-boxing! These are sordid matters
> > and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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> > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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"Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix
"My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space
Odyssey
____________________________________________________________________
For the largest MP3 index on the Web, go to http://mp3.altavista.com
____________________________________________________________________
<A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A>
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==========
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soap-boxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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