>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:57:09 -0500 (CDT) webmaster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Use of Sarin and Killing American in Laos > >Excerpt from General Moorer's July 17th (2000) deposition. > >MOORER: "Generally SOG's objectives > was to locate personnel such as defectors or > Laotian military or track NVA movements within > Laos. Tactics -- I did not get involved with > exactly how they did it. I knew what they were > trying to do. But I was too busy. I had the > Israeli problem to worry about. I didn't go into > detail on exactly how they would do it. It was > not the only such mission of its kind. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Compartmentalization is key here. I > > didn't even tell General Abrams about when I was > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > going to mine Haifong Harbor because I was too > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > worried about leaks. That would have been > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > disastrous. Leaks were always a problem. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > I can also remember talking about the Christmas bombing > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > with Nixon. He asked me if there was a leak or > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > not. And I promised him it wouldn't." > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > TAILWIND > >QUESTION: Now you had told us before the CIA was involved > in this operation. Was it the CIA's job to track > defectors?" >MOORER: "Yeah, trying to track defectors was one > of the jobs but it had several jobs. Again, I > knew the general overall task on this mission. > But I did not know about the tactics." > >QUESTION: But was the mission at hand here to try > and kill these defectors, that they were creating > a real military problem that had to be > eliminated? >MOORER: "I told you before that I would not > hesitate to use any tactic or weapon to save > American lives....One of the breaks we have had in > the last" -- "best few weeks is locating several > SOG recon teams who were sitting on the ridge line > surrounding the village base camp where the > defectors were. They report back to headquarters > that there are roundeyes or longshadows in that > village. At least one person we have talked to > observing the camp says they were walking about > unfettered, freely mixing with locals...." >QUESTION: So killing these defectors was the > mission? And it was done to protect American > lives? >MOORER: "Yes, I have no doubt about that." > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >QUESTION: Why not capture? >MOORER: "Well, you would have to examine that possibility. > You would have to see to it.....see if it was possible to > capture them and bring them out. If it was > ~~~~~~~~~~ > impossible, then you can't leave them out there. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >QUESTION: You would have to eliminate them? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >MOORER: "Yes. Elimination was successful in > this case? I say Yes. But again, I do > not remember the specifics of this action. I am > the aware of the fact that there was this > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > objective in Laos." > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >QUESTION: Our understanding when you mention a > large group, is that there were as many as 20 in > this village. Isn't 20 a large group, and isn't > that memorable? >MOORER: "That's a very large group. Probably > others had been picked up by the Russians. They > really liked electronic repairmen. The NVA really > liked getting their hands on them. They would > treat them nicely.....The problem at the outset of the > operation, now again I did not get an exact > rundown on the tactics of it, but there were > people mixed up with the locals. It is very > difficult to capture such people as a group, > especially if it's a big group. Now, I'm sure > that there would be an effort to capture them > alive. If they could capture them alive, they > would do it. Because we would want to interrogate > them about the other side. >QUESTION: Is communications, codes, signal > interpretation what was going on in this specific > village? >MOORER: "I think it could have been. > The enemy would interrogate them in detail. But > the enemy would get useful information out of them > and do anything to get them to turn. And if they > could get them to do something useful, they would > do anything to keep them cooperative, even serve > them ice cream." >QUESTION: You mean drugs, women and so forth?" >MOORER: "Drugs, yes. Women, I don't know about. Have you > ever seen the women over there?" >QUESTION: When the Tailwind hatchet force hit the > ground the defectors went scrambling into a > defensive perimeter around the base camp. Does > that make them enemy? >MOORER: "If they are participating > in a defense and you are on the offense, then of > course. No holds barred." >QUESTION: Wouldn't the White House have to > approve such an operation to go after defectors? >MOORER: "There's a lot of people in the White House." >QUESTION: Specifically did NSA Kissinger know and approve it? >MOORER: "He would be generally aware. That would > be......That would be a member of the National > Security Council staff that would know....There > would be a member of the National Security Council > staff that would know" what Kissinger knew and so on..... > The CIA gives the President a report every day on what they > do. They give him the key points in intelligence. > There could have been a CIA action officer on the > National Security Council that would have had that > conversation. I don't know." >QUESTION: Was it your > understanding that the SOG team achieved their > objective? >MOORER: "I don't know about achieve. I knew > about the problem. And I knew when the operation > Was finished. I didn't analyze the details. > There was no hooray, hooray, we've won." >QUESTION: Now, about the mission completed. It's > got to be a difficult choice. On the one hand, > those defectors are somebody's father or child. > On the other hand they are a huge military > headache and need to be taken care of. Is there a > moral choice here, any ambivalence? >MOORER: "When you go into a fight it is life or death. > You can't ease up on an operation. > You can't go in with sentiment. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >QUESTION: How can you be sure that there were not > POWs there? The hatchet force team was told to go > in and shoot anything that moves. They wouldn't > be told that if they were POWs there, would they? >MOORER: "Now you're getting into the rules of > engagement. Every combat force gets information > on the rules of engagement. We had terrible rules > of engagement during the Vietnam War. The rules > of engagement tell you who to shoot and who not to > shoot. Sometimes it comes down that all right, > all targets are okay." >QUESTION: Is our number of about 15 defectors > killed about right?" >MOORER: "I do not know if there were 20 or 15. But there was > a group...... "Defectors are deserters. > And they were out there seeking the best way to > stay alive until they could escape and go home. > They were in my opinion probably deserters that, > after all, this war was unique. There was no > public support for it. Soldiers came back in > uniform, were booed.....These people apparently couldn't > take it anymore. They said, I'll escape. Going into > Laos is not the same as the Germans...they endeavored to > make their way back home through Laos. And they were > picked up by Laotian military people. And they > were biding their time until the war was over. > And they could make an escape back to the United > States..... "In order to surv they were cooperating with the > enemy, doing things, to get through this stage and achieve > their hope of getting home. They had set about > doing things that would not displease their > captors.....displease their captors. They were > collaborators. They did not wave the Laotian > flag, but they did not want to be eliminated. > They were taking the long range view.... > They all got together and somehow > decided how to survive until they could get out. > They knew it would not have been effective to have > attacked their captors. They did not have the > equipment and in that situation that could not > escape. If they had to in some way assist their > captors they would do it to survive....the enemy > would give them a job that they were fully > conservant with and also give them food. And they > would do anything to survive until the war was > over." >QUESTION: How many were there in general? > Singlaub has given us a figure of 23 and someone > else has said 300 and so on. >MOORER: "But there is no way that I can really give you accurate > figures on that. Even today, several bodies are disputed. I > tell you this, one figure is too low and the other > is too high. It's someplace in the middle....Many of the > missing on the missing list are truly missing. Not every > missing person is a defector. There is not a reliable source > of figures on this. It depends on who is computing > the information and how they handle the inferences." >QUESTION: We have been told, including > by Singlaub, that killing defectors, that > defectors were always a top priority target for SOG. >MOORER: "Yes, I think so. You can rely on > Singlaub. He was heavy into this from the start. > He would have no reason to misinform you... > ....But the conventional forces might be > more apt to take a defector prisoner....It's on a > case by case basis. You get into the game here." >QUESTION: The PR game? >MOORER: "PR game here. You can't have soldiers > writing home, dear mom, yesterday I saw a defector > and he was American but we had to shoot him. That > would hit the papers sooner or later and LBJ would be mad." >QUESTION: So a big PR problem? >MOORER: "Sure...... Many mothers and fathers do not believe > their sons would defect. If you kill a defector, you have a > big PR problem." >QUESTION: Because of the PR problem wit defectors, that is why the > operation was given to a black operation like SOG? >MOORER: "Yes." >QUESTION: Turning now to another subject matter, the gas. We discussed > CBU 15, which is GB, which is sarin when we last met. > I have been talking to lots and lots of Air Force > people. And specifically to 30 different A1 > pilots based at NKP. And they say that they had > this weapon and used it a lot on search and rescue, SARs. >MOORER: "That's right....." >QUESTION: The sun is going down. The pilot is > surrounded. In moments he will be captured and > killed. They drop the CBU 15. But what is > dramatic is that sometimes the pilot on the ground > might not have a gas mask. How would it be > decided to use such a weapon in that situation? >MOORER: "Well, the weapon had to be on the > airplane to begin with. The pilots would have had > sufficient information that this weapon was needed > to remove this threat. But the pilot would not > want to kill his objective -- the downed man. You > can't go dropping weapons like this willy-nilly." >QUESTION: How do you decide whether to drop the weapon? >MOORER: "It depends on good communication > between the man on the ground. Hopefully the > pilot can tell you, I'm just behind the big oak > tree, up the hill. The pilots would have to know > they have a good chance of attacking without > killing him. There is no point in killing him > while trying to save him....The key to that decision > depends on sufficient communications to pinpoint his > position. And if that is the case, and they are > confident, then the attack would take place and > the helicopter would make the pickup while the > results of the attack is debilitating the enemy. > You would not want to use the weapon unless you > know exactly where he was. If he gets killed it's > a lost cause." >QUESTION: Some describe a situation in which the gas would be dropped > enemy... "The sun is going down. The gas > could prevent the capture of another POW who would > then not give info to the enemy. And it would > kill a lot of enemy and keep them from gaining the > radios and other weapons on the aircraft. So the > pilots would drop the weapon in the hope of > preventing a capture, as a sort of prophylactic, > even if it killed the airman." >MOORER: "Well, one important factor here is the > wind. It's important to talk to the pilots to > make sure you drop the weapon downwind. You > obviously want to drop downwind from where he is. > You want to make sure the wind is not blowing over > him. But the decision to use the weapon or not is > an on-the-scene decision. There are three or four > vital pieces of information what to do. And if > the wind is right and communication is good, I > would be included to go ahead with the attack." >QUESTION: Now, turning to Tailwind for a > moment, one of the new pieces of information we > have is that A1s had prepped the camp where the > defectors were based the night before the SOG team > attacked. We've been told CBU 15 was used in > preparing the camp. Are you aware of that? Does > that fit with what you said earlier about any > weapon, any tactic, and so on, "in saving an > American life?" >MOORER: "I do not know this for sure. I know > they were trying to....what they were trying to > do there. I do not know exactly how they did it. > But the fact that this was an unconventional > operation, yes, I tried to use every capability > and facility to ensure success....." >QUESTION: And so prepping the camp with gas > was a part of the battle plan?" >MOORER: "Fundamentally what you described is aimed at saving American > lives. I have no problem with it...." >QUESTION: One pilot told me he flew the weapon 15 > different times. There are 60 or so pilots at NKP > who fly A1s. Could this weapon have been used > more than a hundred times?" >MOORER: "I don't have the figure....I can comfortably say that if a > pilot was involved in a SAR operation, then he probably > flew it. I think it could be useful in a lot of > those operations. I'm not aware of how many times it was > used." >QUESTION: We have heard the weapon was generally available from > '69 to '70." >MOORER: "I do not know the exact dates of > the weapon in the area. I am not aware > specifically. Let me say this. It was definitely > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > available in the Vietnam War, which is a much > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > bigger operation than you realize. >QUESTIN: Would the White House be aware? >MOORER: "Someone on NSA staff would be aware....I'm sure he had a > briefing. He was generally briefed on all weapons > in Southeast Asia. And I'm not sure he thought > about it seriously. It was just another weapon in > war. He was told what its characteristics are. > But in the broadest sense the U.S. was not to > initiate gas warfare." >QUESTION: But you told me before the NVA didn't use gas. >MOORER: "That's true. What I mean is that we > would not initiate in terms of regiment versus > regiment or division versus division. But when > you get into special operations, that's another > question. If the weapon could save American > lives, I would never hesitate to use it." >QUESTION: And did it save American lives in Laos?" >MOORER: "Yes." >QUESTION: How many Americans' lives were > saved by this weapon? >MOORER: "I don't want to speculate on that." > >########################################################## >SEE PNEWS ARCHIVES for previous articles about Tailwind --> > http://pnews.org/art/portart.shtml > Discuss Tailwind at: PNEWS Message Board --> >http://pnews.org/boards/pnews/ > Signup for PNEWS info list (on internet since 85) at: >http://pnews.org/signup.html > TheGolem > http://pnews.org/ *** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. 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