Hello ALL,
I wish to thank you ALL for your help!
Results:
STILL UNDETERMINED:(
[After reading the below plethora of possible etymolgies for
the phraise, what do you ALL think, i.e., should a winner be
determined??]
None the less, I got some UNBE-FRIGGIN-LIEVABLE help on this,
actually TOO MUCH, i.e., had I gotten JUST A TAD LESS help, I may
have been the winner of our $100 bet:(
At any rate, to the person that supplied me the below URL (you
know who you are:), I half thank you, and I half HOLD YOU
RESPONSIBLE for me not winning the hundred bucks;-)
[Oh, and as most of you KNEW, i.e., that the subject line of my
request for help had it right (i.e., "the whole nine YARDS"), and
that I just messed up somehow in the message body when I wrongly
typed, "the whole nine YEARS:(" ]
At any rate, my single handed search was NO WHERE compared to ALL
OF YOUR HELP, and I, again, THANK YOU ALL WHOLEHEARTEDLY!
Just AMAZING, this INTERNET, huh? :)
Ya know, "it" just MIGHT be what some say, i.e., the NEW RELIGION
OF THE WORLD (if, that is, the word religion's most ancient AND
RECENT etympolgy is true, i.e., RELIGION = RELINKING, to each
other AND God).
This thing we have all grown to take for granted in just a few
short years, this thing we call the INTERNET, this thing that was
developed as a weapon ... the thing, to the GREAT consternation
and dismay of those EVIL few that were responsible for "taking it
to the ppl of the world," well this "thing we call the INTERNET"
JUST MAY turn out to be the SALVATION of our species, i.e., the
"thing" that just might/could be the weapon that WE, "THE PPL OF
THE PLANET EARTH" USE AS A WEAPON AGAINST THE EVIL THAT HAS RULED
THIS PLANET FOR AT VERY MINIMUM, SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS (and, most
likely, SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS!).
And, at any rate, to those that helped me, I say "THANKS." And
to those that are curious as to the phrase, "the whole nine
yards," I submit the following URL (again, the one that one of
you supplied to me, and again, I half thank YOU;-). Imo, the
below WAS INDEED THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE ETYMOLOGY (please tell me
if there are any decent etymologies for the phrase that are NOT
included in the below) as to the origins of the phrase, "The
whole nine yards."
On Wed, 2 Aug 2000,
MICHAEL SPITZER wrote:
>
> Sorry for the off topic nature of my need here, but I just
> engauged in a wager of ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS as to where the
> phrase, "the whole nine years" hales from.
>
> I have been searching on-line for an hour now, with no results:(
>
> Can any one help me here?
>
> And, in advance, thanks A LOT, i.e., I AM DAMN CERTAIN AS TO THE
> ETYMOLOGY of the phrase, BUT, as of yet, I just can't prove it:(
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mike
>
From:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html
--Begin forward--
What's the origin of "the whole nine yards"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Cecil:
Where does the expression "the whole nine yards" come from? Even
Walter Payton had to make ten yards for a first down. Since when
does nine yards equal 100 percent effort?
I trust your answer is not sexual. No enhancer I've ever seen
advertised promises anything like that. --Russell E., Chicago
Cecil replies:
Don't get smart, Russell. Not that there's any great danger.
The usual authorities are silent on this topic, so Cecil has been
trolling for leads on radio talk shows. This has turned up
numerous theories. Some are pretty ingenious, in a demented sort
of way.
One guy told me that the expression comes from the nautical term
"yard," meaning one of the horizontal poles that hold up the
sails on a square-rigged sailing ship.
A typical ship, he claimed, would have three masts with three
yards apiece, or nine yards in all. A captain who had sent up all
the canvas he could in order to squeeze out max velocity would
thus be said to be giving it "the whole nine yards."
Could be, but I doubt it. For one thing, sailing ships often had
12, 15, or even 18 yards. For another, "whole" in this context is
a funny choice of words. "All nine yards" would make more sense.
Others have told me that coal trucks in New England originally
had three sections that contained three cubic yards of coal
apiece. If you anticipated a bitterly cold winter, naturally you
asked for the whole nine yards.
More commonly, however, you hear that the expression comes from
the capacity of ready-mix concrete trucks. Concrete trucks
supposedly contain nine cubic yards when fully loaded.
This view was advanced by William Safire in his "On Language"
column in the New York Times Magazine. I wrote to Bill inquiring
about his sources, but all I got by way of reply was a postcard
congratulating me on my interest in language.
This did not strike me as real responsive. But perhaps there is
more to it than meets the eye.
Pending further illumination on that score, I have checked with
several ready-mix companies. They tell me that while drum size on
concrete trucks varies (the drum is what holds the concrete),
capacity generally ranges from seven to ten yards. Nine yards is
a rough average.
In short, we could be onto something here.
But I'm skeptical. I note that the ready-mix business dates back
only to the late 40s and early 50s. So all we have to do to
disprove the concrete theory--something disturbs me about that
juxtaposition, but never mind--is to find an earlier citation.
I shall endeavor to do so, but if the Teeming Millions want to
help out, be my guest.
THE PEOPLE SPEAK, ROUND ONE
Dear Cecil:
Not that I am calling you a liar, but I would like to dispute
your answer to the question posed in a recent column regarding
the origin of the term "the whole nine yards."
It is not a nautical, coal, or ready-mix term but rather relates
to the clothing industry. It is a term that tailors used for
denoting the extent that one wishes to invest in a custom-made
suit.
It takes exactly nine square yards of material to create a man's
three-piece suit. If an individual desires a suit that is
tailored to the "hilt" (double lined, etc.), he would request
that the tailor should proceed with "the whole nine yards."
Anything shy of nine yards would mean various alterations. This
would lessen the overall quality of the suit.
My source: Howell M., father, friend, and personal adviser. His
credentials: Noted sharp dresser and business executive, Michigan
Avenue, Chicago. His experience: 35 years. --Chris M., Tempe,
Arizona
Dear Cecil:
I think I can answer the one about "the whole nine yards," though
I can't recall my source. The phrase comes from, of all things,
wedding veils.
In olden days, any bride who really wanted to impress the
neighbors (and whose father could foot the bill) simply had to
have a veil nine yards in length. Take a look at the Princess Di
wedding pictures and you'll see what I mean. Anything less was,
well, something less.
Hence the phrase originally applied to fancy, blowout
weddings--"the whole nine yards." --Betsy D., Washington, D.C.
Cecil replies:
It is at times like these that I wish I had gone into a more
respectable line of work. Numbers running, maybe.
At least that way I'd get definite results, which is more than
you can say for free-lance etymology. I've looked into both
theories outlined above, and while I'm dubious, neither can be
flatly ruled out.
The amount of cloth required for a man's three-piece suit varies
with the man. But the average is about 4 to 4-1/2 yards measured
off a 30-inch bolt.
Cloth for men's suits is generally sold "double-width," meaning
it's folded in half before being put on bolts. The actual cloth
size is 60 inches wide. This works out to 6-2/3 to 7-1/2 square
yards of cloth, well shy of the nine yards we're after, even for
a good suit.
The fact that a suit is top quality doesn't mean it uses more
cloth than the run-of-the-mill variety. If anything, according to
one tailor I spoke to, custom-made suits use less cloth, since
there's less waste during cutting.
I talked to a number of tailors, one of whom had been in business
40 years. None had heard the expression "the whole nine yards"
used in connection with the men's clothing business.
However, a seamstress did opine that once upon a time cloth for
men's coats had been sold on single-width bolts. Four and a half
yards of double-width cloth presumably equals nine yards of
single-width. So she cast her vote for Papa M.'s theory.
Fine by me. I'd hate to give a boy reason to doubt his old man.
It's pretty much the same story with bridal veils. The longest
veil seen nowadays is generally 180 inches, or 15 feet.
But a saleswoman at one bridal shop confirmed that years ago your
basic last-days-of-Pompeii-type wedding might in fact feature a
27-foot veil. She herself believed that this was the origin of
the expression "the whole nine yards."
Lady Di's train was 25 feet long. Allowing a couple extra feet
for the veil (which attaches to the head, as opposed to the
train, which attaches to the waist), we come up with nine yards.
We are thus faced with an apparent case of linguistic parallel
development--an expression that three different industries
(ready-mix concrete, bridal wear, and maybe men's tailoring)
claim as their own.
With all respect to the Teeming Millions' fathers, the only thing
that will settle the issue is published citations--examples of
"the whole nine yards" in books and periodicals, the earlier the
better.
You got one, send it in. We'll get to the bottom of this yet.
THE PEOPLE SPEAK, ROUND TWO
Dear Cecil:
The term "the whole nine yards" originally referred to the amount
of fabric it took to make an authentic dress for a colonial lady.
To this day, ladies who wish to have costumes made can do with no
less than nine yards of material, not to mention lace, buttons,
snaps and whatever else it takes to complete the outfit. The
expression "the whole nine yards" includes all these extras.
--Mrs. J.C., Yorktown, Virginia
Dear Cecil:
"The whole nine yards" refers to the last thing a person used to
receive in this world. It is the amount of cloth an old-fashioned
undertaker used to make a funeral shroud. --Stephen K., Madison,
Wisconsin
Dear Cecil:
I submit that the phrase has its origins not in concrete, coal,
or sailing ships but in the humble general store of bygone days.
These stores sold just about everything a family could need,
including fabric.
Embedded in the counter were small brass nail three feet apart,
which were used to measure yards of material, which usually came
in bolts of nine yards. If you needed only a few yards of
material, you would "get down to brass tacks" and buy the desired
amount.
If, however, you needed a large quantity of fabric, then you
would just say give me "the whole nine yards."
While this answer is speculative, I believe it more likely than
some of the others. How many other phrases have come to use from
the ready-made concrete industry? --James M., Pasadena,
California
Dear Cecil:
I heard it originated somewhere in England and referred to the
difference between a proper burial and a pauper's burial.
If you were well-to-do, you could afford to have "the whole nine
yards" of dirt removed for your grave, as opposed to the poor who
couldn't pay for such a large plot. --Cathy B., Norfolk, Virginia
Dear Cecil:
It is an expression from the sewing circle. To this day all
fabric comes in bolts of nine yards. Check it out. --Teresa H.,
San Antonio, Texas
Dear Cecil:
With regard to the origin of the phrase "the whole nine yards,"
one must keep in mind the inevitable reduction of the subtle and
urbane to the pedestrian and vulgar in the hands of the "teeming
millions."
It seems perfectly logical to me that the true meaning of the
phrase does indeed spring from football. However, rather than
indicating fulfillment of a goal, the phrase probably was
originally intended ironically.
In an instance of shortfallen achievement where a disdainful
comment would be appropriate, it could be said sarcastically that
"he went the whole nine yards."
For example, in answering the original reader's query, Cecil
certainly went the whole nine yards. --Rick A., Chicago
Cecil replies:
Contrary to common belief, cloth does not come in bolts of nine
yards "to this day." Twenty to twenty-five yards is more like it.
As for the rest of you people, I am not interested in your
freaking opinions. I want facts.
Since none appear to be forthcoming, we will declare this
discussion closed until such time as I can go investigate myself.
This is the last time I ask you guys for anything.
--CECIL ADAMS
[Comment on this answer]
=================================================================
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT
FROM THE DESK OF: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Mike Spitzer* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
~~~~~~~~ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
Shalom, A Salaam Aleikum, and to all, A Good Day.
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